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\"但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種一種是實名制的跟台灣一樣一種是非實名制的非實名制的我們沒有辦法實名制的如果我們及時發出扣押裁定目前可以掌握這些國外的虛幣交易所願意配合嗎彭主委你們有沒有去瞭解像你們訂這20條的時候\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 614.261, \"end\": 614.401, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 614.401, \"end\": 614.721, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 614.721, \"end\": 614.961, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 614.961, \"end\": 615.242, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 615.242, \"end\": 616.262, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"虛\"}, {\"word\": \"幣\"}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 616.262, \"end\": 616.422, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 616.422, \"end\": 616.522, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 616.522, \"end\": 616.642, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 616.642, \"end\": 616.782, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 616.782, \"end\": 617.583, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 617.583, \"end\": 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\"start\": 941.426, \"end\": 941.606, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 941.606, \"end\": 941.806, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"巨\", \"start\": 941.806, \"end\": 941.826, \"score\": 0.581}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"鍾\"}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 952.615, \"end\": 952.795, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 952.795, \"end\": 952.915, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 952.915, \"end\": 952.975, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 952.975, \"end\": 953.095, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 953.095, \"end\": 953.215, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 953.215, \"end\": 953.335, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 953.335, \"end\": 953.495, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 953.495, \"end\": 953.515, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 953.515, \"end\": 953.595, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 953.595, \"end\": 953.715, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 953.715, \"end\": 953.816, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 953.816, \"end\": 953.896, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"秉\"}, {\"word\": \"瑞\", \"start\": 953.896, \"end\": 954.036, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 954.036, \"end\": 954.056, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,333 --> 00:00:14,678\n麻煩請卓院長金管會財政部備詢\n\n2\n00:00:37,441 --> 00:01:02,936\n總委員好院長好彭主委好莊部長好委員長今天您在進入議場之前您有接受媒體採訪提到了4100億的特別預算條例那麼我們看到這個特別預算條例當中呢其中包含了什麼包含了你要支持產業包含了國家的國土安全韌性還有照顧民生那另外還有後關稅時期的洗產地的問題違規走廊問題還有國家中大問題\n\n3\n00:01:05,137 --> 00:01:30,850\n後面這個部分我再來談因為我之前在委員會問過很多經濟部了那請問你認為這當中你說到要支持產業這4100億哪些是支持產業4100億當中我們就產業支持跟安定就業編了930億但是另外還有比方說我認為易駐台電的1000億是產業界非常迫切需要的不要再調漲電價不要關稅電價雙重的衝擊\n\n4\n00:01:34,372 --> 00:01:51,790\n所以這個也是產業界所需要的有在講說你拿一千億給台電不如一個人一萬塊發一發因為你說照顧產業電價漲了產業出口競爭力削弱但是我們發現金一萬塊給民眾民眾拿一萬塊電價漲了拿來付不就結了嗎你認為這樣的說法你覺得有道理嗎\n\n5\n00:01:52,915 --> 00:02:04,224\n如果台電的經營現在他的財政沒有辦法健全那未來電價審議委員會把他調漲的話或許是7月或許是10月我不知道如果調漲的話\n\n6\n00:02:05,595 --> 00:02:25,417\n那麼循環造成的物價的波動帶給整個社會的壓力比拿一萬塊在口袋壓力還要大你的意思是說或許電價漲了我拿了一萬塊漲的電費沒有一萬塊那麼多但是因為電價漲了麵包漲什麼東西都漲我額外支出的生活開銷遠超過這一萬是不是這樣\n\n7\n00:02:26,058 --> 00:02:43,385\n一定是的請行政院好好的就這一點跟民眾說明可以嗎我們有請主計總署來核算如果將電價如果調整多少%數會造成物價的波動怎麼回算到每個國人身上的壓力回算回來那另外關於洗產地違規轉運還有一個問題我們看下一頁今天的報紙就寫了中國鋼品跟中國啤酒傾銷經濟部已經判成是產業損害囉\n\n8\n00:02:52,662 --> 00:02:58,191\n請問一下接下來交給財政部在最慢的70天內要判斷有沒有傾銷\n\n9\n00:03:00,558 --> 00:03:22,977\n我們知道財政部之前對於中國啤酒違規來台灣進行一些不詞的宣傳已經有處置了對不對請部長能不能指示財政部不要七十天一個月內如果經濟部的損害確定反傾銷的部分一個月內做出來可以嗎是的我們會盡快的來做然後對於不管是啤酒也好鋼品也好會盡快按照調查完以後就送關稅審議委員會來盡快決定是不是要課徵臨時的反傾銷稅\n\n10\n00:03:27,781 --> 00:03:56,320\n院長問題的嚴重性那麼責任財政部不要70天一個月內進度完成可以嗎我們盡快把它完成讓傳訊我是問院長這個反傾銷的調查會盡快完成好謝謝接下來我們看下一頁其實另外要請教的現在我們的在本月初啊金城資訊它是一個資訊服務的龍頭很多的銀行證交所期交所都用它的接面接接我那時候問訴發部說它出現了這個治安的漏洞我們有沒有受到影響\n\n11\n00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:22,453\n那麼那個副總發部說沒有影響但是我要問的金管會主委現在這些單位都你管的你有沒有知道他們有沒有因此而把金城支付換掉有沒有我想我還沒有接到這樣一個通報不過我們就是金融機構對於資安的部分有它一套的那如果有銀行換掉了金城支付你覺得是不是就有問題\n\n12\n00:04:23,325 --> 00:04:51,361\n沒有我想這個是屬於銀行自主部分只要他符合我們的這些的資安規定那你們要不要去關心一下如果張三銀行覺得說有問題理事說沒問題金管會要確實一下好不好當然我們會去關心他們在這個執行的狀況至於說他跟個別廠商之間的營業活動我們會從一個法規制度來管理還有不只金融機構所有的銀行金融機構都有一個財經資訊中心這是財政部出資社的\n\n13\n00:04:52,510 --> 00:05:11,438\n會不會受到波及如果萬一這個支付有破口銀行那邊沒有擋住那每個銀行都跟我們的財經資訊公司連線會不會有破口會不會受到連累我想我們隨時都會關注這個問題委員有提醒的話我們會著手立刻來了解好那我們來看一下現在來請教院長這個是最近很多的新聞\n\n14\n00:05:13,459 --> 00:05:39,579\n剛剛談到的資產管理中心之外虛擬幣商啊虛擬資產有人呢開薑母鴨不夠還開了虛擬的幣店開了時間來做詐騙那也有呢幣場這樣的交易所呢協助詐騙集團洗錢院長你有沒有聽過你自己有沒有買過虛幣沒有你有沒有聽過虛幣現在很容易受到詐騙跟洗錢的影響是的要不要好好管理有這個金管會已經有適到的\n\n15\n00:05:40,942 --> 00:05:47,434\n所以我正要問你的問題就是說好來我們看下一頁虛弊防詐主管機關是誰院長你覺得是誰\n\n16\n00:05:52,758 --> 00:06:17,310\n那我先跟院長講一下我們的法定貨幣持有人不記名有序號但是交易入境要到銀行去提取我們才有辦法追蹤債券有不記名跟記名的那不記名的他們都有序號但是不記名的無法追蹤記名的可追蹤證券有記名有序號可追蹤虛幣問題來了虛幣它有分記名跟不記名但是上鏈之後都可追蹤\n\n17\n00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:33,107\n所以法幣在銀行裡面交易但是虛幣跟這些有價憑證一樣有價證券一樣是由證期局在管的主委是不是這樣子是的我想這部分其實剛才委員講的是沒有說虛幣有它跟過去我們其他習慣的\n\n18\n00:06:34,349 --> 00:06:53,392\n這些所謂的現金跟有價證券的這個避留是不一樣的我想但是我們監管會在自從行政院指定我們對具有支付跟投資性質的屬性的虛擬資產為主政的單位我們就積極的來處理這件事情包括我們的檢察人員前一陣子我們也跟檢察大會合作針對避留追蹤的部分\n\n19\n00:06:54,074 --> 00:07:16,300\n避留其實在目前的數位科技只要上列就可以追蹤但是有一個最重要的是持有人我們看到券商虛幣跟第三方支付到KYC對不對包括我們券商管理規則34條35條之一要確定開戶的客戶身份我們的洗錢房子法第六條也是一樣包括第三方支付也是如此虛資產也是如此而且虛幣要確認客戶的最終責任對不對請問一下他們如何KYC\n\n20\n00:07:21,431 --> 00:07:29,010\n我跟你講一下現在發生一個問題了那個莊部長今天的新聞數存戶遭冒用國營及堵漏什麼意思\n\n21\n00:07:29,813 --> 00:07:59,117\n我們自然能憑證有人假裝幫你頒貸款拿了你的自然能憑證開了個人頭賬戶那取得線上開戶驗證因為不用本人臨櫃所以有七個行庫已經喊卡了請問目前財政部有沒有了解一下是不是我們的公股銀行都已經做好這個防止冒用的一個動作了沒有錯第一個就是那個數位的開戶用自然能憑證辦的我們公股行戶都喊卡了也就是說這個因為太泛濫公股行戶都有做準備對不對人頭賬戶那民間銀行呢金管會\n\n22\n00:07:59,910 --> 00:08:17,277\n我想這部分因為其實兩個銀行系統他們對這個都保持高度的警戒我想這部分我們會請銀行局來趕快來處理這件事情看看如何做會比較謝謝主委長要跟您說明一下為什麼我們對人頭戶要給詐團使用這麼防止呢首先如果你是正交\n\n23\n00:08:18,157 --> 00:08:42,927\n證券的要交割戶在銀行端開所以你在銀行端開交割戶的時候本人就會被KYC如果我是銀行開戶當然是KYC現在連電資業者也要做本人的KYC但是有兩種單位為什麼他們做了KYC之後會出什麼事情會有一個財經資訊公司財經資訊公司會拿你的開戶資料來比對你在其他金融機構\n\n24\n00:08:43,647 --> 00:08:57,974\n譬如說手機號碼換了,他說有問題,就會透過這個方式來阻卻但是目前第三方支付跟未來的虛幣交易所並沒有辦法連線到財經資訊中心請問莊部長,你同不同意為了防詐讓這兩個機構也可以連線到財經資訊中心去確認KYC,確認這是不是本人\n\n25\n00:09:08,357 --> 00:09:31,167\nKYC本來就很重要可以防止這種人頭賬戶形成詐騙的一個源頭所以我們看為了有效防止提供人頭賬戶給詐團那麼可以提供第三方支付跟虛幣服務業者透過財經資訊公司來查詢其他金融機構開戶所做的手機號碼來做查核莊部長你同意嗎\n\n26\n00:09:31,806 --> 00:09:53,487\n是我想我們會跟央行財經資訊公司央行主管我們來做一個討論看要怎麼樣對是你們出了錢在央行管的難怪楊總裁在看我那彭主委你覺得有沒有幫助我想只要有助於防詐阻詐我們都會全力來處置院長你也支持那請指示三個單位趕快來做好下一頁我們看一下另外我們有一個問題\n\n27\n00:09:54,528 --> 00:10:13,623\n就是如果扣押的裁定能否凍結境外具實名制交易所的紮款,我要講的是虛幣我們講,如果虛幣,未來我們有一個虛擬資產服務法草案,現在預告期了,20條只要是境內的虛幣交易所,只要發現異常可以暫停,讓它不能轉出也停止交易\n\n28\n00:10:14,261 --> 00:10:32,211\n但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種一種是實名制的跟台灣一樣一種是非實名制的非實名制的我們沒有辦法實名制的如果我們及時發出扣押裁定目前可以掌握這些國外的虛幣交易所願意配合嗎彭主委你們有沒有去瞭解像你們訂這20條的時候\n\n29\n00:10:34,169 --> 00:11:00,909\n這個當然是全世界我們因為這個虛擬資產的交易是無國界的差別當然在我們境內我們未來這個專法的時候境內一定會做得到啊境外實名制的呢那境外的部分我們正在想一個辦法從境內有一個管控措施來加強這一部分我想這個是一個全世界必須要努力的一個挑戰所以如果我們國內立法通過之後金管會除了要求國內之外也會努力的去爭取國外實名制的\n\n30\n00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:24,939\nB交所,CB交易所,能夠配合我們的司法查購,可以嗎?任何有助於我們對這個處理犯罪的,我們一定會來努力,因為這個已經跨境以外但是我覺得這是要透過國際合作來做很好,所以卓院長,這已經超出金管會跟財政部之外了啦這需要另外一個單位叫做法務部,我來說明一下現在司法機關能不能及時開出的扣押裁定,我們往下看\n\n31\n00:11:26,041 --> 00:11:36,000\n其實呢阻斷詐騙的債圖金流我們是追錢為優先但是傳統上司法機關我們傳統上的財產犯罪我是搶奪我去偷竊\n\n32\n00:11:37,475 --> 00:12:01,694\n都會先抓什麼先抓人追賊啊才能追張嘛抓到賊才能以人來追張是不是這樣傳統都是這樣抓到了犯人警察抓到犯人了他身上敲一敲喔很多張款那就查屍主是誰是不是這樣的院長但是在現在我們虛擬貨幣的時代呢現在都是數位流通有時候我已經被詐騙了但要確定兩點第一我是犯罪被害人\n\n33\n00:12:02,506 --> 00:12:26,894\n第二這個財產是我的所得是我的財產是我的而且我是因為犯罪受害我才能去要求司法機關開出這個扣押裁定是不是這樣子您是學法的嘛好但是現在又出現一個問題了現在司法機關他確定這是犯罪所得這是詐騙但是遇到虛弊的時候他往往不發給裁定扣押因為他還沒有抓到犯罪的人\n\n34\n00:12:28,296 --> 00:12:40,076\n職務上司法界還沒有抓到犯罪的人他說我主張我被騙了我的錢在哪裡在那裡以前傳統的犯罪名畫珠寶就算是抓到了章沒有抓到犯罪的人\n\n35\n00:12:41,005 --> 00:12:58,895\n誰去主張那個珠寶銘畫是他的無法主張但是虛幣可以我可以主張這個虛幣是我的查後這是我的因為受犯罪受害損失的我就可以要求裁定扣押免得被轉出去院長可不可以指示法務部協助包括我們今晚會來幫忙打詐幫助這一點可以嗎\n\n36\n00:13:01,030 --> 00:13:13,001\n新的一個金融創新之後新的一個形態包括他的犯罪行為也是個形態那是不是這個當事人事格有沒有那個主體是不是出現我想要請法務部來研究一下\n\n37\n00:13:14,037 --> 00:13:32,653\n請法務部盡速的未來司法機關以追前為優先確認詐款入境後盡速向境外的法院的合作具有實名制虛弊教授來合法扣押核定好不好我們最後一頁再來主委我這個問過你了警示帳號\n\n38\n00:13:33,854 --> 00:13:52,871\n警察發現有人的帳號就跟金融機構提出警示要有聯防系統嘛但是有人積極有人懶惰上次問過你您說會要求一起都要努力做是不是我們已經把這個相關單位請來做的非常非常嚴密的研究我昨天才跟銀行局\n\n39\n00:13:56,553 --> 00:14:10,303\n所以現在銀行都會積極配合了但是有個問題了我們金融資訊暨聯防通報的電子化平台有兩個部分一個是事前的徵信包括我們農業的農業會的合作社那個信用部\n\n40\n00:14:10,743 --> 00:14:27,050\n都可以透過這個資料調閱處理這項廉政但是他同時也是聯防通報那我想除了銀行是不是所有的金融機構都有加入金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台主委你了解我們現在是有加入但是大家因為技術上的不足有沒有都加入了你確定\n\n41\n00:14:29,229 --> 00:14:57,159\n要不要再確認一下我可以馬上跟我們銀行組長確認一下如果沒有是不是要求全部都要加入那對於所有有助於那個主債這個原則我很清楚我告訴你在哪裡現在呢如果沒有把全部金融機構都納入這個聯防平台詐騙集團會利用在國內尚未加入平台的金融機構譬如說我們會注目的是什麼個人帳戶但是法人帳戶啊一般有的銀行他不受理\n\n42\n00:14:58,217 --> 00:15:18,266\n個人帳戶啦都是法人帳戶結果詐團就利用這個切點把這些可能還沒有納入我們聯防平台的他就用50萬以下的方式把詐團多次運到國外去院長如果知道有這個漏洞是不是要求金管會全部的金融機構都要納入我們的金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台\n\n43\n00:15:20,319 --> 00:15:41,826\n儘管我們應該要求所有的金融機構加入平台我們也要做整片整個整體的規劃對打詐這個工作才能辦法有效的遏制好最後我就這三個訴求提供第三方資物及虛擬資產服務業者透過財經資訊公司查詢其他金融機構開戶的手機號碼有要來防止人頭賬戶第二協調司法機關競速向境外巨視\n\n44\n00:15:52,615 --> 00:15:54,056\n謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10333\t14678\t麻煩請卓院長金管會財政部備詢\n37441\t62936\t總委員好院長好彭主委好莊部長好委員長今天您在進入議場之前您有接受媒體採訪提到了4100億的特別預算條例那麼我們看到這個特別預算條例當中呢其中包含了什麼包含了你要支持產業包含了國家的國土安全韌性還有照顧民生那另外還有後關稅時期的洗產地的問題違規走廊問題還有國家中大問題\n65137\t90850\t後面這個部分我再來談因為我之前在委員會問過很多經濟部了那請問你認為這當中你說到要支持產業這4100億哪些是支持產業4100億當中我們就產業支持跟安定就業編了930億但是另外還有比方說我認為易駐台電的1000億是產業界非常迫切需要的不要再調漲電價不要關稅電價雙重的衝擊\n94372\t111790\t所以這個也是產業界所需要的有在講說你拿一千億給台電不如一個人一萬塊發一發因為你說照顧產業電價漲了產業出口競爭力削弱但是我們發現金一萬塊給民眾民眾拿一萬塊電價漲了拿來付不就結了嗎你認為這樣的說法你覺得有道理嗎\n112915\t124224\t如果台電的經營現在他的財政沒有辦法健全那未來電價審議委員會把他調漲的話或許是7月或許是10月我不知道如果調漲的話\n125595\t145417\t那麼循環造成的物價的波動帶給整個社會的壓力比拿一萬塊在口袋壓力還要大你的意思是說或許電價漲了我拿了一萬塊 漲的電費沒有一萬塊那麼多但是因為電價漲了 麵包漲 什麼東西都漲我額外支出的生活開銷遠超過這一萬 是不是這樣\n146058\t163385\t一定是的請行政院好好的就這一點跟民眾說明可以嗎我們有請主計總署來核算如果將電價如果調整多少%數會造成物價的波動怎麼回算到每個國人身上的壓力回算回來那另外關於洗產地 違規轉運還有一個問題我們看下一頁 今天的報紙就寫了中國鋼品跟中國啤酒傾銷經濟部已經判成是產業損害囉\n172662\t178191\t請問一下接下來交給財政部在最慢的70天內要判斷有沒有傾銷\n180558\t202977\t我們知道財政部之前對於中國啤酒違規來台灣進行一些不詞的宣傳已經有處置了對不對請部長能不能指示財政部不要七十天一個月內如果經濟部的損害確定反傾銷的部分一個月內做出來可以嗎是的我們會盡快的來做然後對於不管是啤酒也好鋼品也好會盡快按照調查完以後就送關稅審議委員會來盡快決定是不是要課徵臨時的反傾銷稅\n207781\t236320\t院長 問題的嚴重性 那麼責任財政部不要70天 一個月內進度完成可以嗎我們盡快把它完成 讓傳訊我是問院長這個反傾銷的調查會盡快完成好 謝謝 接下來我們看下一頁其實另外要請教的現在我們的在本月初啊 金城資訊 它是一個資訊服務的龍頭很多的銀行 證交所 期交所 都用它的接面接接我那時候問訴發部說 它出現了這個治安的漏洞我們有沒有受到影響\n237110\t262453\t那麼那個副總發部說沒有影響但是我要問的金管會主委現在這些單位都你管的你有沒有知道他們有沒有因此而把金城支付換掉有沒有我想我還沒有接到這樣一個通報不過我們就是金融機構對於資安的部分有它一套的那如果有銀行換掉了金城支付你覺得是不是就有問題\n263325\t291361\t沒有我想這個是屬於銀行自主部分只要他符合我們的這些的資安規定那你們要不要去關心一下如果張三銀行覺得說有問題理事說沒問題金管會要確實一下好不好當然我們會去關心他們在這個執行的狀況至於說他跟個別廠商之間的營業活動我們會從一個法規制度來管理還有不只金融機構所有的銀行金融機構都有一個財經資訊中心這是財政部出資社的\n292510\t311438\t會不會受到波及如果萬一這個支付有破口銀行那邊沒有擋住那每個銀行都跟我們的財經資訊公司連線會不會有破口會不會受到連累我想我們隨時都會關注這個問題委員有提醒的話我們會著手立刻來了解好那我們來看一下現在來請教院長這個是最近很多的新聞\n313459\t339579\t剛剛談到的資產管理中心之外虛擬幣商啊 虛擬資產有人呢 開薑母鴨不夠 還開了虛擬的幣店開了時間來做詐騙那也有呢 幣場這樣的交易所呢協助詐騙集團洗錢院長 你有沒有聽過 你自己有沒有買過虛幣沒有 你有沒有聽過虛幣現在很容易受到詐騙跟洗錢的影響 是的要不要好好管理有 這個金管會已經有適到的\n340942\t347434\t所以我正要問你的問題就是說好來我們看下一頁虛弊防詐主管機關是誰院長你覺得是誰\n352758\t377310\t那我先跟院長講一下我們的法定貨幣持有人不記名有序號但是交易入境要到銀行去提取我們才有辦法追蹤債券有不記名跟記名的那不記名的他們都有序號但是不記名的無法追蹤記名的可追蹤證券有記名有序號可追蹤虛幣問題來了虛幣它有分記名跟不記名但是上鏈之後都可追蹤\n378090\t393107\t所以法幣在銀行裡面交易但是虛幣跟這些有價憑證一樣有價證券一樣是由證期局在管的主委是不是這樣子是的我想這部分其實剛才委員講的是沒有說虛幣有它跟過去我們其他習慣的\n394349\t413392\t這些所謂的現金跟有價證券的這個避留是不一樣的我想但是我們監管會在自從行政院指定我們對具有支付跟投資性質的屬性的虛擬資產為主政的單位我們就積極的來處理這件事情包括我們的檢察人員前一陣子我們也跟檢察大會合作針對避留追蹤的部分\n414074\t436300\t避留其實在目前的數位科技只要上列就可以追蹤但是有一個最重要的是持有人我們看到券商虛幣跟第三方支付到KYC對不對包括我們券商管理規則34條35條之一要確定開戶的客戶身份我們的洗錢房子法第六條也是一樣包括第三方支付也是如此虛資產也是如此而且虛幣要確認客戶的最終責任對不對請問一下他們如何KYC\n441431\t449010\t我跟你講一下 現在發生一個問題了那個莊部長 今天的新聞數存戶遭冒用 國營及堵漏什麼意思\n449813\t479117\t我們自然能憑證有人假裝幫你頒貸款拿了你的自然能憑證開了個人頭賬戶那取得線上開戶驗證因為不用本人臨櫃所以有七個行庫已經喊卡了請問目前財政部有沒有了解一下是不是我們的公股銀行都已經做好這個防止冒用的一個動作了沒有錯第一個就是那個數位的開戶用自然能憑證辦的我們公股行戶都喊卡了也就是說這個因為太泛濫公股行戶都有做準備對不對人頭賬戶那民間銀行呢金管會\n479910\t497277\t我想這部分因為其實兩個銀行系統他們對這個都保持高度的警戒我想這部分我們會請銀行局來趕快來處理這件事情看看如何做會比較謝謝主委長要跟您說明一下為什麼我們對人頭戶要給詐團使用這麼防止呢首先如果你是正交\n498157\t522927\t證券的要交割戶在銀行端開所以你在銀行端開交割戶的時候本人就會被KYC如果我是銀行開戶當然是KYC現在連電資業者也要做本人的KYC但是有兩種單位為什麼他們做了KYC之後會出什麼事情會有一個財經資訊公司財經資訊公司會拿你的開戶資料來比對你在其他金融機構\n523647\t537974\t譬如說手機號碼換了,他說有問題,就會透過這個方式來阻卻但是目前第三方支付跟未來的虛幣交易所並沒有辦法連線到財經資訊中心請問莊部長,你同不同意為了防詐讓這兩個機構也可以連線到財經資訊中心去確認KYC,確認這是不是本人\n548357\t571167\tKYC本來就很重要可以防止這種人頭賬戶形成詐騙的一個源頭所以我們看為了有效防止提供人頭賬戶給詐團那麼可以提供第三方支付跟虛幣服務業者透過財經資訊公司來查詢其他金融機構開戶所做的手機號碼來做查核莊部長你同意嗎\n571806\t593487\t是 我想我們會跟央行 財經資訊公司央行主管我們來做一個討論 看要怎麼樣對 是你們出了錢在央行管的 難怪楊總裁在看我那彭主委你覺得有沒有幫助我想只要有助於防詐阻詐 我們都會全力來處置院長你也支持 那請指示三個單位趕快來做好 下一頁我們看一下另外我們有一個問題\n594528\t613623\t就是如果扣押的裁定能否凍結境外具實名制交易所的紮款,我要講的是虛幣我們講,如果虛幣,未來我們有一個虛擬資產服務法草案,現在預告期了,20條只要是境內的虛幣交易所,只要發現異常可以暫停,讓它不能轉出也停止交易\n614261\t632211\t但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種一種是實名制的跟台灣一樣一種是非實名制的非實名制的我們沒有辦法實名制的如果我們及時發出扣押裁定目前可以掌握這些國外的虛幣交易所願意配合嗎彭主委你們有沒有去瞭解像你們訂這20條的時候\n634169\t660909\t這個當然是全世界我們因為這個虛擬資產的交易是無國界的差別當然在我們境內我們未來這個專法的時候境內一定會做得到啊境外實名制的呢那境外的部分我們正在想一個辦法從境內有一個管控措施來加強這一部分我想這個是一個全世界必須要努力的一個挑戰所以如果我們國內立法通過之後金管會除了要求國內之外也會努力的去爭取國外實名制的\n661690\t684939\tB交所,CB交易所,能夠配合我們的司法查購,可以嗎?任何有助於我們對這個處理犯罪的,我們一定會來努力,因為這個已經跨境以外但是我覺得這是要透過國際合作來做很好,所以卓院長,這已經超出金管會跟財政部之外了啦這需要另外一個單位叫做法務部,我來說明一下現在司法機關能不能及時開出的扣押裁定,我們往下看\n686041\t696000\t其實呢 阻斷詐騙的債圖金流 我們是追錢為優先但是傳統上司法機關 我們傳統上的財產犯罪我是搶奪 我去偷竊\n697475\t721694\t都會先抓什麼 先抓人追賊啊 才能追張嘛抓到賊 才能以人來追張 是不是這樣傳統都是這樣 抓到了犯人 警察抓到犯人了他身上敲一敲 喔 很多張款 那就查屍主是誰是不是這樣的 院長但是在現在 我們虛擬貨幣的時代呢現在都是數位流通有時候我已經被詐騙了 但要確定兩點第一 我是犯罪被害人\n722506\t746894\t第二這個財產是我的所得是我的財產是我的而且我是因為犯罪受害我才能去要求司法機關開出這個扣押裁定是不是這樣子您是學法的嘛好但是現在又出現一個問題了現在司法機關他確定這是犯罪所得這是詐騙但是遇到虛弊的時候他往往不發給裁定扣押因為他還沒有抓到犯罪的人\n748296\t760076\t職務上司法界還沒有抓到犯罪的人他說我主張我被騙了我的錢在哪裡在那裡以前傳統的犯罪名畫珠寶就算是抓到了章沒有抓到犯罪的人\n761005\t778895\t誰去主張那個珠寶銘畫是他的無法主張但是虛幣可以我可以主張這個虛幣是我的查後這是我的因為受犯罪受害損失的我就可以要求裁定扣押免得被轉出去院長可不可以指示法務部協助包括我們今晚會來幫忙打詐幫助這一點可以嗎\n781030\t793001\t新的一個金融創新之後新的一個形態包括他的犯罪行為也是個形態那是不是這個當事人事格有沒有那個主體是不是出現我想要請法務部來研究一下\n794037\t812653\t請法務部盡速的未來司法機關以追前為優先確認詐款入境後盡速向境外的法院的合作具有實名制虛弊教授來合法扣押核定好不好我們最後一頁再來主委我這個問過你了警示帳號\n813854\t832871\t警察發現有人的帳號就跟金融機構提出警示要有聯防系統嘛但是有人積極有人懶惰上次問過你您說會要求一起都要努力做是不是我們已經把這個相關單位請來做的非常非常嚴密的研究我昨天才跟銀行局\n836553\t850303\t所以現在銀行都會積極配合了但是有個問題了我們金融資訊暨聯防通報的電子化平台有兩個部分一個是事前的徵信包括我們農業的農業會的合作社那個信用部\n850743\t867050\t都可以透過這個資料調閱處理這項廉政但是他同時也是聯防通報那我想除了銀行是不是所有的金融機構都有加入金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台主委你了解我們現在是有加入但是大家因為技術上的不足有沒有都加入了你確定\n869229\t897159\t要不要再確認一下我可以馬上跟我們銀行組長確認一下如果沒有是不是要求全部都要加入那對於所有有助於那個主債這個原則我很清楚我告訴你在哪裡現在呢如果沒有把全部金融機構都納入這個聯防平台詐騙集團會利用在國內尚未加入平台的金融機構譬如說我們會注目的是什麼個人帳戶但是法人帳戶啊一般有的銀行他不受理\n898217\t918266\t個人帳戶啦 都是法人帳戶結果詐團就利用這個切點把這些可能還沒有納入我們聯防平台的他就用50萬以下的方式把詐團多次運到國外去院長 如果知道有這個漏洞是不是要求金管會全部的金融機構都要納入我們的金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台\n920319\t941826\t儘管我們應該要求所有的金融機構加入平台我們也要做整片整個整體的規劃對打詐這個工作才能辦法有效的遏制好 最後我就這三個訴求提供第三方資物及虛擬資產服務業者透過財經資訊公司查詢其他金融機構開戶的手機號碼有要來防止人頭賬戶第二 協調司法機關競速向境外巨視\n952615\t954056\t謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢\n","txt":"麻煩請卓院長金管會財政部備詢\n總委員好院長好彭主委好莊部長好委員長今天您在進入議場之前您有接受媒體採訪提到了4100億的特別預算條例那麼我們看到這個特別預算條例當中呢其中包含了什麼包含了你要支持產業包含了國家的國土安全韌性還有照顧民生那另外還有後關稅時期的洗產地的問題違規走廊問題還有國家中大問題\n後面這個部分我再來談因為我之前在委員會問過很多經濟部了那請問你認為這當中你說到要支持產業這4100億哪些是支持產業4100億當中我們就產業支持跟安定就業編了930億但是另外還有比方說我認為易駐台電的1000億是產業界非常迫切需要的不要再調漲電價不要關稅電價雙重的衝擊\n所以這個也是產業界所需要的有在講說你拿一千億給台電不如一個人一萬塊發一發因為你說照顧產業電價漲了產業出口競爭力削弱但是我們發現金一萬塊給民眾民眾拿一萬塊電價漲了拿來付不就結了嗎你認為這樣的說法你覺得有道理嗎\n如果台電的經營現在他的財政沒有辦法健全那未來電價審議委員會把他調漲的話或許是7月或許是10月我不知道如果調漲的話\n那麼循環造成的物價的波動帶給整個社會的壓力比拿一萬塊在口袋壓力還要大你的意思是說或許電價漲了我拿了一萬塊 漲的電費沒有一萬塊那麼多但是因為電價漲了 麵包漲 什麼東西都漲我額外支出的生活開銷遠超過這一萬 是不是這樣\n一定是的請行政院好好的就這一點跟民眾說明可以嗎我們有請主計總署來核算如果將電價如果調整多少%數會造成物價的波動怎麼回算到每個國人身上的壓力回算回來那另外關於洗產地 違規轉運還有一個問題我們看下一頁 今天的報紙就寫了中國鋼品跟中國啤酒傾銷經濟部已經判成是產業損害囉\n請問一下接下來交給財政部在最慢的70天內要判斷有沒有傾銷\n我們知道財政部之前對於中國啤酒違規來台灣進行一些不詞的宣傳已經有處置了對不對請部長能不能指示財政部不要七十天一個月內如果經濟部的損害確定反傾銷的部分一個月內做出來可以嗎是的我們會盡快的來做然後對於不管是啤酒也好鋼品也好會盡快按照調查完以後就送關稅審議委員會來盡快決定是不是要課徵臨時的反傾銷稅\n院長 問題的嚴重性 那麼責任財政部不要70天 一個月內進度完成可以嗎我們盡快把它完成 讓傳訊我是問院長這個反傾銷的調查會盡快完成好 謝謝 接下來我們看下一頁其實另外要請教的現在我們的在本月初啊 金城資訊 它是一個資訊服務的龍頭很多的銀行 證交所 期交所 都用它的接面接接我那時候問訴發部說 它出現了這個治安的漏洞我們有沒有受到影響\n那麼那個副總發部說沒有影響但是我要問的金管會主委現在這些單位都你管的你有沒有知道他們有沒有因此而把金城支付換掉有沒有我想我還沒有接到這樣一個通報不過我們就是金融機構對於資安的部分有它一套的那如果有銀行換掉了金城支付你覺得是不是就有問題\n沒有我想這個是屬於銀行自主部分只要他符合我們的這些的資安規定那你們要不要去關心一下如果張三銀行覺得說有問題理事說沒問題金管會要確實一下好不好當然我們會去關心他們在這個執行的狀況至於說他跟個別廠商之間的營業活動我們會從一個法規制度來管理還有不只金融機構所有的銀行金融機構都有一個財經資訊中心這是財政部出資社的\n會不會受到波及如果萬一這個支付有破口銀行那邊沒有擋住那每個銀行都跟我們的財經資訊公司連線會不會有破口會不會受到連累我想我們隨時都會關注這個問題委員有提醒的話我們會著手立刻來了解好那我們來看一下現在來請教院長這個是最近很多的新聞\n剛剛談到的資產管理中心之外虛擬幣商啊 虛擬資產有人呢 開薑母鴨不夠 還開了虛擬的幣店開了時間來做詐騙那也有呢 幣場這樣的交易所呢協助詐騙集團洗錢院長 你有沒有聽過 你自己有沒有買過虛幣沒有 你有沒有聽過虛幣現在很容易受到詐騙跟洗錢的影響 是的要不要好好管理有 這個金管會已經有適到的\n所以我正要問你的問題就是說好來我們看下一頁虛弊防詐主管機關是誰院長你覺得是誰\n那我先跟院長講一下我們的法定貨幣持有人不記名有序號但是交易入境要到銀行去提取我們才有辦法追蹤債券有不記名跟記名的那不記名的他們都有序號但是不記名的無法追蹤記名的可追蹤證券有記名有序號可追蹤虛幣問題來了虛幣它有分記名跟不記名但是上鏈之後都可追蹤\n所以法幣在銀行裡面交易但是虛幣跟這些有價憑證一樣有價證券一樣是由證期局在管的主委是不是這樣子是的我想這部分其實剛才委員講的是沒有說虛幣有它跟過去我們其他習慣的\n這些所謂的現金跟有價證券的這個避留是不一樣的我想但是我們監管會在自從行政院指定我們對具有支付跟投資性質的屬性的虛擬資產為主政的單位我們就積極的來處理這件事情包括我們的檢察人員前一陣子我們也跟檢察大會合作針對避留追蹤的部分\n避留其實在目前的數位科技只要上列就可以追蹤但是有一個最重要的是持有人我們看到券商虛幣跟第三方支付到KYC對不對包括我們券商管理規則34條35條之一要確定開戶的客戶身份我們的洗錢房子法第六條也是一樣包括第三方支付也是如此虛資產也是如此而且虛幣要確認客戶的最終責任對不對請問一下他們如何KYC\n我跟你講一下 現在發生一個問題了那個莊部長 今天的新聞數存戶遭冒用 國營及堵漏什麼意思\n我們自然能憑證有人假裝幫你頒貸款拿了你的自然能憑證開了個人頭賬戶那取得線上開戶驗證因為不用本人臨櫃所以有七個行庫已經喊卡了請問目前財政部有沒有了解一下是不是我們的公股銀行都已經做好這個防止冒用的一個動作了沒有錯第一個就是那個數位的開戶用自然能憑證辦的我們公股行戶都喊卡了也就是說這個因為太泛濫公股行戶都有做準備對不對人頭賬戶那民間銀行呢金管會\n我想這部分因為其實兩個銀行系統他們對這個都保持高度的警戒我想這部分我們會請銀行局來趕快來處理這件事情看看如何做會比較謝謝主委長要跟您說明一下為什麼我們對人頭戶要給詐團使用這麼防止呢首先如果你是正交\n證券的要交割戶在銀行端開所以你在銀行端開交割戶的時候本人就會被KYC如果我是銀行開戶當然是KYC現在連電資業者也要做本人的KYC但是有兩種單位為什麼他們做了KYC之後會出什麼事情會有一個財經資訊公司財經資訊公司會拿你的開戶資料來比對你在其他金融機構\n譬如說手機號碼換了,他說有問題,就會透過這個方式來阻卻但是目前第三方支付跟未來的虛幣交易所並沒有辦法連線到財經資訊中心請問莊部長,你同不同意為了防詐讓這兩個機構也可以連線到財經資訊中心去確認KYC,確認這是不是本人\nKYC本來就很重要可以防止這種人頭賬戶形成詐騙的一個源頭所以我們看為了有效防止提供人頭賬戶給詐團那麼可以提供第三方支付跟虛幣服務業者透過財經資訊公司來查詢其他金融機構開戶所做的手機號碼來做查核莊部長你同意嗎\n是 我想我們會跟央行 財經資訊公司央行主管我們來做一個討論 看要怎麼樣對 是你們出了錢在央行管的 難怪楊總裁在看我那彭主委你覺得有沒有幫助我想只要有助於防詐阻詐 我們都會全力來處置院長你也支持 那請指示三個單位趕快來做好 下一頁我們看一下另外我們有一個問題\n就是如果扣押的裁定能否凍結境外具實名制交易所的紮款,我要講的是虛幣我們講,如果虛幣,未來我們有一個虛擬資產服務法草案,現在預告期了,20條只要是境內的虛幣交易所,只要發現異常可以暫停,讓它不能轉出也停止交易\n但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種一種是實名制的跟台灣一樣一種是非實名制的非實名制的我們沒有辦法實名制的如果我們及時發出扣押裁定目前可以掌握這些國外的虛幣交易所願意配合嗎彭主委你們有沒有去瞭解像你們訂這20條的時候\n這個當然是全世界我們因為這個虛擬資產的交易是無國界的差別當然在我們境內我們未來這個專法的時候境內一定會做得到啊境外實名制的呢那境外的部分我們正在想一個辦法從境內有一個管控措施來加強這一部分我想這個是一個全世界必須要努力的一個挑戰所以如果我們國內立法通過之後金管會除了要求國內之外也會努力的去爭取國外實名制的\nB交所,CB交易所,能夠配合我們的司法查購,可以嗎?任何有助於我們對這個處理犯罪的,我們一定會來努力,因為這個已經跨境以外但是我覺得這是要透過國際合作來做很好,所以卓院長,這已經超出金管會跟財政部之外了啦這需要另外一個單位叫做法務部,我來說明一下現在司法機關能不能及時開出的扣押裁定,我們往下看\n其實呢 阻斷詐騙的債圖金流 我們是追錢為優先但是傳統上司法機關 我們傳統上的財產犯罪我是搶奪 我去偷竊\n都會先抓什麼 先抓人追賊啊 才能追張嘛抓到賊 才能以人來追張 是不是這樣傳統都是這樣 抓到了犯人 警察抓到犯人了他身上敲一敲 喔 很多張款 那就查屍主是誰是不是這樣的 院長但是在現在 我們虛擬貨幣的時代呢現在都是數位流通有時候我已經被詐騙了 但要確定兩點第一 我是犯罪被害人\n第二這個財產是我的所得是我的財產是我的而且我是因為犯罪受害我才能去要求司法機關開出這個扣押裁定是不是這樣子您是學法的嘛好但是現在又出現一個問題了現在司法機關他確定這是犯罪所得這是詐騙但是遇到虛弊的時候他往往不發給裁定扣押因為他還沒有抓到犯罪的人\n職務上司法界還沒有抓到犯罪的人他說我主張我被騙了我的錢在哪裡在那裡以前傳統的犯罪名畫珠寶就算是抓到了章沒有抓到犯罪的人\n誰去主張那個珠寶銘畫是他的無法主張但是虛幣可以我可以主張這個虛幣是我的查後這是我的因為受犯罪受害損失的我就可以要求裁定扣押免得被轉出去院長可不可以指示法務部協助包括我們今晚會來幫忙打詐幫助這一點可以嗎\n新的一個金融創新之後新的一個形態包括他的犯罪行為也是個形態那是不是這個當事人事格有沒有那個主體是不是出現我想要請法務部來研究一下\n請法務部盡速的未來司法機關以追前為優先確認詐款入境後盡速向境外的法院的合作具有實名制虛弊教授來合法扣押核定好不好我們最後一頁再來主委我這個問過你了警示帳號\n警察發現有人的帳號就跟金融機構提出警示要有聯防系統嘛但是有人積極有人懶惰上次問過你您說會要求一起都要努力做是不是我們已經把這個相關單位請來做的非常非常嚴密的研究我昨天才跟銀行局\n所以現在銀行都會積極配合了但是有個問題了我們金融資訊暨聯防通報的電子化平台有兩個部分一個是事前的徵信包括我們農業的農業會的合作社那個信用部\n都可以透過這個資料調閱處理這項廉政但是他同時也是聯防通報那我想除了銀行是不是所有的金融機構都有加入金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台主委你了解我們現在是有加入但是大家因為技術上的不足有沒有都加入了你確定\n要不要再確認一下我可以馬上跟我們銀行組長確認一下如果沒有是不是要求全部都要加入那對於所有有助於那個主債這個原則我很清楚我告訴你在哪裡現在呢如果沒有把全部金融機構都納入這個聯防平台詐騙集團會利用在國內尚未加入平台的金融機構譬如說我們會注目的是什麼個人帳戶但是法人帳戶啊一般有的銀行他不受理\n個人帳戶啦 都是法人帳戶結果詐團就利用這個切點把這些可能還沒有納入我們聯防平台的他就用50萬以下的方式把詐團多次運到國外去院長 如果知道有這個漏洞是不是要求金管會全部的金融機構都要納入我們的金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台\n儘管我們應該要求所有的金融機構加入平台我們也要做整片整個整體的規劃對打詐這個工作才能辦法有效的遏制好 最後我就這三個訴求提供第三方資物及虛擬資產服務業者透過財經資訊公司查詢其他金融機構開戶的手機號碼有要來防止人頭賬戶第二 協調司法機關競速向境外巨視\n謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.333 --> 00:14.678\n麻煩請卓院長金管會財政部備詢\n\n00:37.441 --> 01:02.936\n總委員好院長好彭主委好莊部長好委員長今天您在進入議場之前您有接受媒體採訪提到了4100億的特別預算條例那麼我們看到這個特別預算條例當中呢其中包含了什麼包含了你要支持產業包含了國家的國土安全韌性還有照顧民生那另外還有後關稅時期的洗產地的問題違規走廊問題還有國家中大問題\n\n01:05.137 --> 01:30.850\n後面這個部分我再來談因為我之前在委員會問過很多經濟部了那請問你認為這當中你說到要支持產業這4100億哪些是支持產業4100億當中我們就產業支持跟安定就業編了930億但是另外還有比方說我認為易駐台電的1000億是產業界非常迫切需要的不要再調漲電價不要關稅電價雙重的衝擊\n\n01:34.372 --> 01:51.790\n所以這個也是產業界所需要的有在講說你拿一千億給台電不如一個人一萬塊發一發因為你說照顧產業電價漲了產業出口競爭力削弱但是我們發現金一萬塊給民眾民眾拿一萬塊電價漲了拿來付不就結了嗎你認為這樣的說法你覺得有道理嗎\n\n01:52.915 --> 02:04.224\n如果台電的經營現在他的財政沒有辦法健全那未來電價審議委員會把他調漲的話或許是7月或許是10月我不知道如果調漲的話\n\n02:05.595 --> 02:25.417\n那麼循環造成的物價的波動帶給整個社會的壓力比拿一萬塊在口袋壓力還要大你的意思是說或許電價漲了我拿了一萬塊漲的電費沒有一萬塊那麼多但是因為電價漲了麵包漲什麼東西都漲我額外支出的生活開銷遠超過這一萬是不是這樣\n\n02:26.058 --> 02:43.385\n一定是的請行政院好好的就這一點跟民眾說明可以嗎我們有請主計總署來核算如果將電價如果調整多少%數會造成物價的波動怎麼回算到每個國人身上的壓力回算回來那另外關於洗產地違規轉運還有一個問題我們看下一頁今天的報紙就寫了中國鋼品跟中國啤酒傾銷經濟部已經判成是產業損害囉\n\n02:52.662 --> 02:58.191\n請問一下接下來交給財政部在最慢的70天內要判斷有沒有傾銷\n\n03:00.558 --> 03:22.977\n我們知道財政部之前對於中國啤酒違規來台灣進行一些不詞的宣傳已經有處置了對不對請部長能不能指示財政部不要七十天一個月內如果經濟部的損害確定反傾銷的部分一個月內做出來可以嗎是的我們會盡快的來做然後對於不管是啤酒也好鋼品也好會盡快按照調查完以後就送關稅審議委員會來盡快決定是不是要課徵臨時的反傾銷稅\n\n03:27.781 --> 03:56.320\n院長問題的嚴重性那麼責任財政部不要70天一個月內進度完成可以嗎我們盡快把它完成讓傳訊我是問院長這個反傾銷的調查會盡快完成好謝謝接下來我們看下一頁其實另外要請教的現在我們的在本月初啊金城資訊它是一個資訊服務的龍頭很多的銀行證交所期交所都用它的接面接接我那時候問訴發部說它出現了這個治安的漏洞我們有沒有受到影響\n\n03:57.110 --> 04:22.453\n那麼那個副總發部說沒有影響但是我要問的金管會主委現在這些單位都你管的你有沒有知道他們有沒有因此而把金城支付換掉有沒有我想我還沒有接到這樣一個通報不過我們就是金融機構對於資安的部分有它一套的那如果有銀行換掉了金城支付你覺得是不是就有問題\n\n04:23.325 --> 04:51.361\n沒有我想這個是屬於銀行自主部分只要他符合我們的這些的資安規定那你們要不要去關心一下如果張三銀行覺得說有問題理事說沒問題金管會要確實一下好不好當然我們會去關心他們在這個執行的狀況至於說他跟個別廠商之間的營業活動我們會從一個法規制度來管理還有不只金融機構所有的銀行金融機構都有一個財經資訊中心這是財政部出資社的\n\n04:52.510 --> 05:11.438\n會不會受到波及如果萬一這個支付有破口銀行那邊沒有擋住那每個銀行都跟我們的財經資訊公司連線會不會有破口會不會受到連累我想我們隨時都會關注這個問題委員有提醒的話我們會著手立刻來了解好那我們來看一下現在來請教院長這個是最近很多的新聞\n\n05:13.459 --> 05:39.579\n剛剛談到的資產管理中心之外虛擬幣商啊虛擬資產有人呢開薑母鴨不夠還開了虛擬的幣店開了時間來做詐騙那也有呢幣場這樣的交易所呢協助詐騙集團洗錢院長你有沒有聽過你自己有沒有買過虛幣沒有你有沒有聽過虛幣現在很容易受到詐騙跟洗錢的影響是的要不要好好管理有這個金管會已經有適到的\n\n05:40.942 --> 05:47.434\n所以我正要問你的問題就是說好來我們看下一頁虛弊防詐主管機關是誰院長你覺得是誰\n\n05:52.758 --> 06:17.310\n那我先跟院長講一下我們的法定貨幣持有人不記名有序號但是交易入境要到銀行去提取我們才有辦法追蹤債券有不記名跟記名的那不記名的他們都有序號但是不記名的無法追蹤記名的可追蹤證券有記名有序號可追蹤虛幣問題來了虛幣它有分記名跟不記名但是上鏈之後都可追蹤\n\n06:18.090 --> 06:33.107\n所以法幣在銀行裡面交易但是虛幣跟這些有價憑證一樣有價證券一樣是由證期局在管的主委是不是這樣子是的我想這部分其實剛才委員講的是沒有說虛幣有它跟過去我們其他習慣的\n\n06:34.349 --> 06:53.392\n這些所謂的現金跟有價證券的這個避留是不一樣的我想但是我們監管會在自從行政院指定我們對具有支付跟投資性質的屬性的虛擬資產為主政的單位我們就積極的來處理這件事情包括我們的檢察人員前一陣子我們也跟檢察大會合作針對避留追蹤的部分\n\n06:54.074 --> 07:16.300\n避留其實在目前的數位科技只要上列就可以追蹤但是有一個最重要的是持有人我們看到券商虛幣跟第三方支付到KYC對不對包括我們券商管理規則34條35條之一要確定開戶的客戶身份我們的洗錢房子法第六條也是一樣包括第三方支付也是如此虛資產也是如此而且虛幣要確認客戶的最終責任對不對請問一下他們如何KYC\n\n07:21.431 --> 07:29.010\n我跟你講一下現在發生一個問題了那個莊部長今天的新聞數存戶遭冒用國營及堵漏什麼意思\n\n07:29.813 --> 07:59.117\n我們自然能憑證有人假裝幫你頒貸款拿了你的自然能憑證開了個人頭賬戶那取得線上開戶驗證因為不用本人臨櫃所以有七個行庫已經喊卡了請問目前財政部有沒有了解一下是不是我們的公股銀行都已經做好這個防止冒用的一個動作了沒有錯第一個就是那個數位的開戶用自然能憑證辦的我們公股行戶都喊卡了也就是說這個因為太泛濫公股行戶都有做準備對不對人頭賬戶那民間銀行呢金管會\n\n07:59.910 --> 08:17.277\n我想這部分因為其實兩個銀行系統他們對這個都保持高度的警戒我想這部分我們會請銀行局來趕快來處理這件事情看看如何做會比較謝謝主委長要跟您說明一下為什麼我們對人頭戶要給詐團使用這麼防止呢首先如果你是正交\n\n08:18.157 --> 08:42.927\n證券的要交割戶在銀行端開所以你在銀行端開交割戶的時候本人就會被KYC如果我是銀行開戶當然是KYC現在連電資業者也要做本人的KYC但是有兩種單位為什麼他們做了KYC之後會出什麼事情會有一個財經資訊公司財經資訊公司會拿你的開戶資料來比對你在其他金融機構\n\n08:43.647 --> 08:57.974\n譬如說手機號碼換了,他說有問題,就會透過這個方式來阻卻但是目前第三方支付跟未來的虛幣交易所並沒有辦法連線到財經資訊中心請問莊部長,你同不同意為了防詐讓這兩個機構也可以連線到財經資訊中心去確認KYC,確認這是不是本人\n\n09:08.357 --> 09:31.167\nKYC本來就很重要可以防止這種人頭賬戶形成詐騙的一個源頭所以我們看為了有效防止提供人頭賬戶給詐團那麼可以提供第三方支付跟虛幣服務業者透過財經資訊公司來查詢其他金融機構開戶所做的手機號碼來做查核莊部長你同意嗎\n\n09:31.806 --> 09:53.487\n是我想我們會跟央行財經資訊公司央行主管我們來做一個討論看要怎麼樣對是你們出了錢在央行管的難怪楊總裁在看我那彭主委你覺得有沒有幫助我想只要有助於防詐阻詐我們都會全力來處置院長你也支持那請指示三個單位趕快來做好下一頁我們看一下另外我們有一個問題\n\n09:54.528 --> 10:13.623\n就是如果扣押的裁定能否凍結境外具實名制交易所的紮款,我要講的是虛幣我們講,如果虛幣,未來我們有一個虛擬資產服務法草案,現在預告期了,20條只要是境內的虛幣交易所,只要發現異常可以暫停,讓它不能轉出也停止交易\n\n10:14.261 --> 10:32.211\n但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種一種是實名制的跟台灣一樣一種是非實名制的非實名制的我們沒有辦法實名制的如果我們及時發出扣押裁定目前可以掌握這些國外的虛幣交易所願意配合嗎彭主委你們有沒有去瞭解像你們訂這20條的時候\n\n10:34.169 --> 11:00.909\n這個當然是全世界我們因為這個虛擬資產的交易是無國界的差別當然在我們境內我們未來這個專法的時候境內一定會做得到啊境外實名制的呢那境外的部分我們正在想一個辦法從境內有一個管控措施來加強這一部分我想這個是一個全世界必須要努力的一個挑戰所以如果我們國內立法通過之後金管會除了要求國內之外也會努力的去爭取國外實名制的\n\n11:01.690 --> 11:24.939\nB交所,CB交易所,能夠配合我們的司法查購,可以嗎?任何有助於我們對這個處理犯罪的,我們一定會來努力,因為這個已經跨境以外但是我覺得這是要透過國際合作來做很好,所以卓院長,這已經超出金管會跟財政部之外了啦這需要另外一個單位叫做法務部,我來說明一下現在司法機關能不能及時開出的扣押裁定,我們往下看\n\n11:26.041 --> 11:36.000\n其實呢阻斷詐騙的債圖金流我們是追錢為優先但是傳統上司法機關我們傳統上的財產犯罪我是搶奪我去偷竊\n\n11:37.475 --> 12:01.694\n都會先抓什麼先抓人追賊啊才能追張嘛抓到賊才能以人來追張是不是這樣傳統都是這樣抓到了犯人警察抓到犯人了他身上敲一敲喔很多張款那就查屍主是誰是不是這樣的院長但是在現在我們虛擬貨幣的時代呢現在都是數位流通有時候我已經被詐騙了但要確定兩點第一我是犯罪被害人\n\n12:02.506 --> 12:26.894\n第二這個財產是我的所得是我的財產是我的而且我是因為犯罪受害我才能去要求司法機關開出這個扣押裁定是不是這樣子您是學法的嘛好但是現在又出現一個問題了現在司法機關他確定這是犯罪所得這是詐騙但是遇到虛弊的時候他往往不發給裁定扣押因為他還沒有抓到犯罪的人\n\n12:28.296 --> 12:40.076\n職務上司法界還沒有抓到犯罪的人他說我主張我被騙了我的錢在哪裡在那裡以前傳統的犯罪名畫珠寶就算是抓到了章沒有抓到犯罪的人\n\n12:41.005 --> 12:58.895\n誰去主張那個珠寶銘畫是他的無法主張但是虛幣可以我可以主張這個虛幣是我的查後這是我的因為受犯罪受害損失的我就可以要求裁定扣押免得被轉出去院長可不可以指示法務部協助包括我們今晚會來幫忙打詐幫助這一點可以嗎\n\n13:01.030 --> 13:13.001\n新的一個金融創新之後新的一個形態包括他的犯罪行為也是個形態那是不是這個當事人事格有沒有那個主體是不是出現我想要請法務部來研究一下\n\n13:14.037 --> 13:32.653\n請法務部盡速的未來司法機關以追前為優先確認詐款入境後盡速向境外的法院的合作具有實名制虛弊教授來合法扣押核定好不好我們最後一頁再來主委我這個問過你了警示帳號\n\n13:33.854 --> 13:52.871\n警察發現有人的帳號就跟金融機構提出警示要有聯防系統嘛但是有人積極有人懶惰上次問過你您說會要求一起都要努力做是不是我們已經把這個相關單位請來做的非常非常嚴密的研究我昨天才跟銀行局\n\n13:56.553 --> 14:10.303\n所以現在銀行都會積極配合了但是有個問題了我們金融資訊暨聯防通報的電子化平台有兩個部分一個是事前的徵信包括我們農業的農業會的合作社那個信用部\n\n14:10.743 --> 14:27.050\n都可以透過這個資料調閱處理這項廉政但是他同時也是聯防通報那我想除了銀行是不是所有的金融機構都有加入金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台主委你了解我們現在是有加入但是大家因為技術上的不足有沒有都加入了你確定\n\n14:29.229 --> 14:57.159\n要不要再確認一下我可以馬上跟我們銀行組長確認一下如果沒有是不是要求全部都要加入那對於所有有助於那個主債這個原則我很清楚我告訴你在哪裡現在呢如果沒有把全部金融機構都納入這個聯防平台詐騙集團會利用在國內尚未加入平台的金融機構譬如說我們會注目的是什麼個人帳戶但是法人帳戶啊一般有的銀行他不受理\n\n14:58.217 --> 15:18.266\n個人帳戶啦都是法人帳戶結果詐團就利用這個切點把這些可能還沒有納入我們聯防平台的他就用50萬以下的方式把詐團多次運到國外去院長如果知道有這個漏洞是不是要求金管會全部的金融機構都要納入我們的金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台\n\n15:20.319 --> 15:41.826\n儘管我們應該要求所有的金融機構加入平台我們也要做整片整個整體的規劃對打詐這個工作才能辦法有效的遏制好最後我就這三個訴求提供第三方資物及虛擬資產服務業者透過財經資訊公司查詢其他金融機構開戶的手機號碼有要來防止人頭賬戶第二協調司法機關競速向境外巨視\n\n15:52.615 --> 15:54.056\n謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.333,"end":14.678,"text":"麻煩請卓院長金管會財政部備詢"},{"start":37.441,"end":62.936,"text":"總委員好院長好彭主委好莊部長好委員長今天您在進入議場之前您有接受媒體採訪提到了4100億的特別預算條例那麼我們看到這個特別預算條例當中呢其中包含了什麼包含了你要支持產業包含了國家的國土安全韌性還有照顧民生那另外還有後關稅時期的洗產地的問題違規走廊問題還有國家中大問題"},{"start":65.137,"end":90.85,"text":"後面這個部分我再來談因為我之前在委員會問過很多經濟部了那請問你認為這當中你說到要支持產業這4100億哪些是支持產業4100億當中我們就產業支持跟安定就業編了930億但是另外還有比方說我認為易駐台電的1000億是產業界非常迫切需要的不要再調漲電價不要關稅電價雙重的衝擊"},{"start":94.372,"end":111.79,"text":"所以這個也是產業界所需要的有在講說你拿一千億給台電不如一個人一萬塊發一發因為你說照顧產業電價漲了產業出口競爭力削弱但是我們發現金一萬塊給民眾民眾拿一萬塊電價漲了拿來付不就結了嗎你認為這樣的說法你覺得有道理嗎"},{"start":112.915,"end":124.224,"text":"如果台電的經營現在他的財政沒有辦法健全那未來電價審議委員會把他調漲的話或許是7月或許是10月我不知道如果調漲的話"},{"start":125.595,"end":145.417,"text":"那麼循環造成的物價的波動帶給整個社會的壓力比拿一萬塊在口袋壓力還要大你的意思是說或許電價漲了我拿了一萬塊 漲的電費沒有一萬塊那麼多但是因為電價漲了 麵包漲 什麼東西都漲我額外支出的生活開銷遠超過這一萬 是不是這樣"},{"start":146.058,"end":163.385,"text":"一定是的請行政院好好的就這一點跟民眾說明可以嗎我們有請主計總署來核算如果將電價如果調整多少%數會造成物價的波動怎麼回算到每個國人身上的壓力回算回來那另外關於洗產地 違規轉運還有一個問題我們看下一頁 今天的報紙就寫了中國鋼品跟中國啤酒傾銷經濟部已經判成是產業損害囉"},{"start":172.662,"end":178.191,"text":"請問一下接下來交給財政部在最慢的70天內要判斷有沒有傾銷"},{"start":180.558,"end":202.977,"text":"我們知道財政部之前對於中國啤酒違規來台灣進行一些不詞的宣傳已經有處置了對不對請部長能不能指示財政部不要七十天一個月內如果經濟部的損害確定反傾銷的部分一個月內做出來可以嗎是的我們會盡快的來做然後對於不管是啤酒也好鋼品也好會盡快按照調查完以後就送關稅審議委員會來盡快決定是不是要課徵臨時的反傾銷稅"},{"start":207.781,"end":236.32,"text":"院長 問題的嚴重性 那麼責任財政部不要70天 一個月內進度完成可以嗎我們盡快把它完成 讓傳訊我是問院長這個反傾銷的調查會盡快完成好 謝謝 接下來我們看下一頁其實另外要請教的現在我們的在本月初啊 金城資訊 它是一個資訊服務的龍頭很多的銀行 證交所 期交所 都用它的接面接接我那時候問訴發部說 它出現了這個治安的漏洞我們有沒有受到影響"},{"start":237.11,"end":262.453,"text":"那麼那個副總發部說沒有影響但是我要問的金管會主委現在這些單位都你管的你有沒有知道他們有沒有因此而把金城支付換掉有沒有我想我還沒有接到這樣一個通報不過我們就是金融機構對於資安的部分有它一套的那如果有銀行換掉了金城支付你覺得是不是就有問題"},{"start":263.325,"end":291.361,"text":"沒有我想這個是屬於銀行自主部分只要他符合我們的這些的資安規定那你們要不要去關心一下如果張三銀行覺得說有問題理事說沒問題金管會要確實一下好不好當然我們會去關心他們在這個執行的狀況至於說他跟個別廠商之間的營業活動我們會從一個法規制度來管理還有不只金融機構所有的銀行金融機構都有一個財經資訊中心這是財政部出資社的"},{"start":292.51,"end":311.438,"text":"會不會受到波及如果萬一這個支付有破口銀行那邊沒有擋住那每個銀行都跟我們的財經資訊公司連線會不會有破口會不會受到連累我想我們隨時都會關注這個問題委員有提醒的話我們會著手立刻來了解好那我們來看一下現在來請教院長這個是最近很多的新聞"},{"start":313.459,"end":339.579,"text":"剛剛談到的資產管理中心之外虛擬幣商啊 虛擬資產有人呢 開薑母鴨不夠 還開了虛擬的幣店開了時間來做詐騙那也有呢 幣場這樣的交易所呢協助詐騙集團洗錢院長 你有沒有聽過 你自己有沒有買過虛幣沒有 你有沒有聽過虛幣現在很容易受到詐騙跟洗錢的影響 是的要不要好好管理有 這個金管會已經有適到的"},{"start":340.942,"end":347.434,"text":"所以我正要問你的問題就是說好來我們看下一頁虛弊防詐主管機關是誰院長你覺得是誰"},{"start":352.758,"end":377.31,"text":"那我先跟院長講一下我們的法定貨幣持有人不記名有序號但是交易入境要到銀行去提取我們才有辦法追蹤債券有不記名跟記名的那不記名的他們都有序號但是不記名的無法追蹤記名的可追蹤證券有記名有序號可追蹤虛幣問題來了虛幣它有分記名跟不記名但是上鏈之後都可追蹤"},{"start":378.09,"end":393.107,"text":"所以法幣在銀行裡面交易但是虛幣跟這些有價憑證一樣有價證券一樣是由證期局在管的主委是不是這樣子是的我想這部分其實剛才委員講的是沒有說虛幣有它跟過去我們其他習慣的"},{"start":394.349,"end":413.392,"text":"這些所謂的現金跟有價證券的這個避留是不一樣的我想但是我們監管會在自從行政院指定我們對具有支付跟投資性質的屬性的虛擬資產為主政的單位我們就積極的來處理這件事情包括我們的檢察人員前一陣子我們也跟檢察大會合作針對避留追蹤的部分"},{"start":414.074,"end":436.3,"text":"避留其實在目前的數位科技只要上列就可以追蹤但是有一個最重要的是持有人我們看到券商虛幣跟第三方支付到KYC對不對包括我們券商管理規則34條35條之一要確定開戶的客戶身份我們的洗錢房子法第六條也是一樣包括第三方支付也是如此虛資產也是如此而且虛幣要確認客戶的最終責任對不對請問一下他們如何KYC"},{"start":441.431,"end":449.01,"text":"我跟你講一下 現在發生一個問題了那個莊部長 今天的新聞數存戶遭冒用 國營及堵漏什麼意思"},{"start":449.813,"end":479.117,"text":"我們自然能憑證有人假裝幫你頒貸款拿了你的自然能憑證開了個人頭賬戶那取得線上開戶驗證因為不用本人臨櫃所以有七個行庫已經喊卡了請問目前財政部有沒有了解一下是不是我們的公股銀行都已經做好這個防止冒用的一個動作了沒有錯第一個就是那個數位的開戶用自然能憑證辦的我們公股行戶都喊卡了也就是說這個因為太泛濫公股行戶都有做準備對不對人頭賬戶那民間銀行呢金管會"},{"start":479.91,"end":497.277,"text":"我想這部分因為其實兩個銀行系統他們對這個都保持高度的警戒我想這部分我們會請銀行局來趕快來處理這件事情看看如何做會比較謝謝主委長要跟您說明一下為什麼我們對人頭戶要給詐團使用這麼防止呢首先如果你是正交"},{"start":498.157,"end":522.927,"text":"證券的要交割戶在銀行端開所以你在銀行端開交割戶的時候本人就會被KYC如果我是銀行開戶當然是KYC現在連電資業者也要做本人的KYC但是有兩種單位為什麼他們做了KYC之後會出什麼事情會有一個財經資訊公司財經資訊公司會拿你的開戶資料來比對你在其他金融機構"},{"start":523.647,"end":537.974,"text":"譬如說手機號碼換了,他說有問題,就會透過這個方式來阻卻但是目前第三方支付跟未來的虛幣交易所並沒有辦法連線到財經資訊中心請問莊部長,你同不同意為了防詐讓這兩個機構也可以連線到財經資訊中心去確認KYC,確認這是不是本人"},{"start":548.357,"end":571.167,"text":"KYC本來就很重要可以防止這種人頭賬戶形成詐騙的一個源頭所以我們看為了有效防止提供人頭賬戶給詐團那麼可以提供第三方支付跟虛幣服務業者透過財經資訊公司來查詢其他金融機構開戶所做的手機號碼來做查核莊部長你同意嗎"},{"start":571.806,"end":593.487,"text":"是 我想我們會跟央行 財經資訊公司央行主管我們來做一個討論 看要怎麼樣對 是你們出了錢在央行管的 難怪楊總裁在看我那彭主委你覺得有沒有幫助我想只要有助於防詐阻詐 我們都會全力來處置院長你也支持 那請指示三個單位趕快來做好 下一頁我們看一下另外我們有一個問題"},{"start":594.528,"end":613.623,"text":"就是如果扣押的裁定能否凍結境外具實名制交易所的紮款,我要講的是虛幣我們講,如果虛幣,未來我們有一個虛擬資產服務法草案,現在預告期了,20條只要是境內的虛幣交易所,只要發現異常可以暫停,讓它不能轉出也停止交易"},{"start":614.261,"end":632.211,"text":"但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種一種是實名制的跟台灣一樣一種是非實名制的非實名制的我們沒有辦法實名制的如果我們及時發出扣押裁定目前可以掌握這些國外的虛幣交易所願意配合嗎彭主委你們有沒有去瞭解像你們訂這20條的時候"},{"start":634.169,"end":660.909,"text":"這個當然是全世界我們因為這個虛擬資產的交易是無國界的差別當然在我們境內我們未來這個專法的時候境內一定會做得到啊境外實名制的呢那境外的部分我們正在想一個辦法從境內有一個管控措施來加強這一部分我想這個是一個全世界必須要努力的一個挑戰所以如果我們國內立法通過之後金管會除了要求國內之外也會努力的去爭取國外實名制的"},{"start":661.69,"end":684.939,"text":"B交所,CB交易所,能夠配合我們的司法查購,可以嗎?任何有助於我們對這個處理犯罪的,我們一定會來努力,因為這個已經跨境以外但是我覺得這是要透過國際合作來做很好,所以卓院長,這已經超出金管會跟財政部之外了啦這需要另外一個單位叫做法務部,我來說明一下現在司法機關能不能及時開出的扣押裁定,我們往下看"},{"start":686.041,"end":696,"text":"其實呢 阻斷詐騙的債圖金流 我們是追錢為優先但是傳統上司法機關 我們傳統上的財產犯罪我是搶奪 我去偷竊"},{"start":697.475,"end":721.694,"text":"都會先抓什麼 先抓人追賊啊 才能追張嘛抓到賊 才能以人來追張 是不是這樣傳統都是這樣 抓到了犯人 警察抓到犯人了他身上敲一敲 喔 很多張款 那就查屍主是誰是不是這樣的 院長但是在現在 我們虛擬貨幣的時代呢現在都是數位流通有時候我已經被詐騙了 但要確定兩點第一 我是犯罪被害人"},{"start":722.506,"end":746.894,"text":"第二這個財產是我的所得是我的財產是我的而且我是因為犯罪受害我才能去要求司法機關開出這個扣押裁定是不是這樣子您是學法的嘛好但是現在又出現一個問題了現在司法機關他確定這是犯罪所得這是詐騙但是遇到虛弊的時候他往往不發給裁定扣押因為他還沒有抓到犯罪的人"},{"start":748.296,"end":760.076,"text":"職務上司法界還沒有抓到犯罪的人他說我主張我被騙了我的錢在哪裡在那裡以前傳統的犯罪名畫珠寶就算是抓到了章沒有抓到犯罪的人"},{"start":761.005,"end":778.895,"text":"誰去主張那個珠寶銘畫是他的無法主張但是虛幣可以我可以主張這個虛幣是我的查後這是我的因為受犯罪受害損失的我就可以要求裁定扣押免得被轉出去院長可不可以指示法務部協助包括我們今晚會來幫忙打詐幫助這一點可以嗎"},{"start":781.03,"end":793.001,"text":"新的一個金融創新之後新的一個形態包括他的犯罪行為也是個形態那是不是這個當事人事格有沒有那個主體是不是出現我想要請法務部來研究一下"},{"start":794.037,"end":812.653,"text":"請法務部盡速的未來司法機關以追前為優先確認詐款入境後盡速向境外的法院的合作具有實名制虛弊教授來合法扣押核定好不好我們最後一頁再來主委我這個問過你了警示帳號"},{"start":813.854,"end":832.871,"text":"警察發現有人的帳號就跟金融機構提出警示要有聯防系統嘛但是有人積極有人懶惰上次問過你您說會要求一起都要努力做是不是我們已經把這個相關單位請來做的非常非常嚴密的研究我昨天才跟銀行局"},{"start":836.553,"end":850.303,"text":"所以現在銀行都會積極配合了但是有個問題了我們金融資訊暨聯防通報的電子化平台有兩個部分一個是事前的徵信包括我們農業的農業會的合作社那個信用部"},{"start":850.743,"end":867.05,"text":"都可以透過這個資料調閱處理這項廉政但是他同時也是聯防通報那我想除了銀行是不是所有的金融機構都有加入金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台主委你了解我們現在是有加入但是大家因為技術上的不足有沒有都加入了你確定"},{"start":869.229,"end":897.159,"text":"要不要再確認一下我可以馬上跟我們銀行組長確認一下如果沒有是不是要求全部都要加入那對於所有有助於那個主債這個原則我很清楚我告訴你在哪裡現在呢如果沒有把全部金融機構都納入這個聯防平台詐騙集團會利用在國內尚未加入平台的金融機構譬如說我們會注目的是什麼個人帳戶但是法人帳戶啊一般有的銀行他不受理"},{"start":898.217,"end":918.266,"text":"個人帳戶啦 都是法人帳戶結果詐團就利用這個切點把這些可能還沒有納入我們聯防平台的他就用50萬以下的方式把詐團多次運到國外去院長 如果知道有這個漏洞是不是要求金管會全部的金融機構都要納入我們的金融資訊及聯防通報電子化平台"},{"start":920.319,"end":941.826,"text":"儘管我們應該要求所有的金融機構加入平台我們也要做整片整個整體的規劃對打詐這個工作才能辦法有效的遏制好 最後我就這三個訴求提供第三方資物及虛擬資產服務業者透過財經資訊公司查詢其他金融機構開戶的手機號碼有要來防止人頭賬戶第二 協調司法機關競速向境外巨視"},{"start":952.615,"end":954.056,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員及會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請卓院長，還有財政部部長、金管會主委。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、金管會、財政部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、彭主委好、莊部長好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，今天您在進入議場之前有接受媒體採訪，提到了4,100億的特別預算條例，我們看到這個特別預算條例當中包含了要支持產業，包含了國土安全韌性，還有照顧民生；另外還有後關稅時期的洗產地問題、違規轉運問題，以及國家資通安全問題，後面這個部分我稍後再來談，因為我之前在委員會多次詢問過經濟部了。請問院長，這當中你說到要支持產業，這4,100億中有哪些是支持產業的？"],["卓院長榮泰：4,100億當中，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最主要的一筆。"],["卓院長榮泰：產業支持跟安定就業編了930億。但是另外還有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說我認為挹注台電的1,000億是產業界非常迫切需要的，不要再調漲電價，不要有關稅、電價的雙重衝擊，這個也是產業界所需要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有在野黨說你拿1,000億給台電不如一個人1萬塊發一發，因為你說照顧產業，電價漲了，產業出口競爭力削弱，但是我們發現金1萬塊給民眾，民眾拿到1萬塊，電價漲了，拿來付，不就結了嗎！對於這樣的說法，你覺得有道理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：以台電的經營來說，如果現在它的財政沒有辦法健全，未來電價審議委員會決定調漲電價的話，或許是7月或許是10月，我不知道，如果調漲的話，循環造成的物價波動帶給整個社會的壓力會比拿1萬塊在口袋更大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講，你的意思是說，或許電價漲了，我拿了1萬塊，漲的電費沒有1萬塊那麼多，但是因為電價漲了，麵包漲或什麼萬物都漲，我額外支出的生活開銷遠超過這1萬，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請行政院好好的就這一點跟民眾說明，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有請主計總處來核算，電價如果調整多少比率會造成物價多少波動、怎麼回算到每個國人身上的壓力……"],["鍾委員佳濱：增加的負擔？"],["卓院長榮泰：回算回來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，關於洗產地、違規轉運之外，還有一個問題，今天報紙刊載，中國鋼品跟中國啤酒傾銷，經濟部已經判定是產業損害了，接下來就要交給財政部，最慢在70天內要判斷有沒有傾銷，我們知道財政部之前對於中國啤酒違規來臺灣進行一些不實的宣傳已經有處置了，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長能不能指示財政部不要70天，而是一個月內，如果經濟部的損害確定，對於反傾銷的部分在一個月內做出來，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們會儘快的來做，對於不管是啤酒也好，鋼品也好，會儘快調查完以後就送關稅審議委員會，然後儘快決定是不是要課徵臨時的反傾銷稅，我們會隨時掌握。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，你知道問題的嚴重性啦，能不能責成財政部不要70天，一個月內儘速完成，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們儘快把它完成，讓程序完備……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：反傾銷的調查會儘快完成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","另外要請教的是，本月初精誠資訊出現資安危機，精誠資訊是一個資訊服務的龍頭，很多銀行、證交所、期交所都用它的介面介接，我那時候有問數發部，它出現了資安的漏洞，我們有沒有受到影響，數發部說沒有影響。現在我要問金管會主委，因為這些單位現在都是你管的，你知不知道他們有沒有因此而把精誠資服換掉？有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我還沒有接到這樣的通報，不過金融機構對於資安的部分有它一套的機制……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果有銀行換掉了精誠資服，你覺得是不是就有問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想這個是屬於銀行自主的部分，只要它符合我們的資安規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們要不要去關心一下，如果張三銀行覺得有問題，李四說沒問題，金管會要確實一下，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，當然我們會去關心他們的執行狀況，至於說它跟個別廠商之間的營業活動，我們會從一個法規制度面來管理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只金融機構，所有的銀行、金融機構都有連線財金資訊公司，這是財政部出資設的，會不會受到波及？萬一這個資服有破口，銀行那邊沒有擋住，每個銀行都跟我們的財金資訊公司連線，會不會有破口？會不會受到連累？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們隨時都會關注這個問題，委員有提醒的話，我們會著手立刻來了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來要請教院長的是，這是最近的新聞，除了剛剛談到的資產管理中心之外，現在還有虛擬幣商的問題，有人開薑母鴨店不夠，還開了10間虛擬幣店，以此來做詐騙，還有「幣想」交易所協助詐騙集團洗錢，院長，你自己有沒有買過虛幣？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有沒有聽過虛幣現在很容易受到詐騙跟洗錢的影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要好好管理？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，金管會已經有四道的程序在管理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我正要問你的問題就是這個，虛幣防詐的主管機關是誰？院長，你覺得是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會？好。我先跟院長講一下，我們的法定貨幣持有人不記名、有序號，但是交易路徑是要到銀行去提取的才有辦追蹤；債券則有分不記名跟記名，都有序號，但是不記名的債券無法追蹤，記名的債券可追蹤；證券有記名、有序號、可追蹤；問題來了，虛幣也有分記名跟不記名，但是上鏈之後都可追蹤。法幣是在銀行裡面交易，但是虛幣跟這些有價憑證、有價證券一樣，是由證期局在管的，主委，是不是這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，有關這個部分，剛才委員講的沒有錯，虛幣跟過去我們其他習慣的這些所謂的現金跟有價證券的幣流是不一樣的，但是自從行政院指定我們金管會為具有支付跟投資性質屬性的虛擬資產的主政單位，我們就積極的來處理這件事情，包括我們的檢查人員前一陣子也跟警察單位合作，針對幣流追蹤的部分，我們也……"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實在目前的數位科技下，只要上鏈就可以追蹤幣流，但是有一個最重要的是持有人，我們看到券商、虛幣跟第三方支付業者都要KYC，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括證券商管理規則第三十四條、第三十五條之一，要確定開戶的客戶身分；我們的洗錢防制法第六條也一樣，包括第三方支付也是如此，虛擬資產服務也是如此，而且虛擬資產服務商要負確認客戶身分的最終責任，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問一下，他們如何KYC？我跟你講一下，現在發生一個問題了，莊部長，今天的新聞刊載「數存戶遭冒用國銀急堵漏」，什麼意思？有人假裝幫忙辦貸款，拿了他人的自然人憑證去開人頭帳戶，取得線上開戶驗證，因為這不用本人臨櫃。目前已經有7個行庫已經喊卡了，請問部長，目前財政部有沒有去了解一下，是不是我們的公股銀行都已經做好防止冒用的一個動作了？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，第一個就是數位開戶用自然人憑證辦理的部分，我們公股行庫都喊卡了，也就是說，這個因為太氾濫了，造成很多人頭帳戶。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，公股行庫都會做準備，對不對？那民間銀行呢？金管會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關這個部分，其實兩個銀行系統他們對這個都保持高度的警戒啦，這個部分我們會請銀行局趕快來處理這件事，看看如何做會比較好……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","卓院長，要跟您說明一下，為什麼我們對於人頭戶被詐團拿去使用的這個部分要這樣的防止呢？首先，如果是證券戶透過交割戶去銀行端開戶時，本人就會被KYC；如果我是在銀行開戶當然會被KYC；現在連電支業者也要做本人的KYC，但是有兩種單位不用，為什麼呢？他們做了KYC之後會出什麼事情？因為我們有一個財金資訊公司，財金資訊公司會拿你的開戶資料來比對你在其他金融機構留存的資料，譬如說手機號碼換了，他認為有問題，就會透過這個方式來阻卻，但是目前第三方支付跟未來的虛幣交易所並沒有辦法連線到財金資訊公司，請問莊部長，你同不同意為了防詐，應該讓這兩個機構也可以連線到財金資訊中心去確認KYC，確認這是不是本人？"],["莊部長翠雲：KYC本來就很重要，可以防止這種人頭帳戶形成詐騙的一個源頭。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以為了有效防止提供人頭帳戶給詐團，應該提供第三方支付跟虛擬資產服務業者透過財金資訊公司來查詢其他金融機構開戶時所留的手機號碼來做查核。莊部長，你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，因為財金資訊公司由央行主管，我想我們會跟央行來做一個討論，看要怎麼樣去做得更好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，是你們出的錢，但央行在管的啦，難怪楊總裁一直在看我。彭主委，你覺得這樣有沒有幫助？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想只要有助於防詐、阻詐，我們都會全力來促進。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以院長也支持啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼請指示三個單位趕快來做。","另外，我們有一個問題，就是扣押裁定能否凍結境外具實名制交易所的詐款？我現在講的是虛幣，如果對於虛幣，未來我們有一個虛擬資產服務法草案，現在在預告期了，其中第二十條規定，只要是境內的虛幣交易所，只要發現異常就可以暫停，讓它不能轉出，也停止交易。但是境外的虛幣交易所有分兩種，一種是實名制的，跟臺灣一樣，一種是非實名制。非實名制的我們沒有辦法，針對實名制的，如果我們及時發出扣押裁定，目前有境外虛幣交易所願意配合嗎？彭主委，你們有沒有去瞭解一下，你們訂定第二十條的時候。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個當然是全世界，因為虛擬資產的交易是無國界的差別，當然，在我們境內，未來我們這個專法實施的時候……"],["鍾委員佳濱：境內一定可以做得到啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：在境內我們一定有辦法做到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：境外實名制的呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：境外的部分，我們正在想一個辦法，從境內有一個管控措施來加強這個部分，我想這是全世界也必須要努力的一個挑戰啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果我們國內立法通過之後，金管會除了要求國內之外，也會努力的去爭取國外實名制的虛幣交易所配合我們的司法查扣，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講過，任何有助於我們處理犯罪的作為，我們一定會努力，因為這個已經跨境外，但是我覺得這個需要透過國際合作來做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。所以卓院長，這部分已經超出金管會跟財政部之外，需要另外一個單位法務部，我來說明一下。現在司法機關能不能及時開出扣押裁定？我們往下看，阻斷詐騙的在途金流要以追錢為優先，但是傳統上司法機關對於傳統的財產犯罪，比如我去搶奪、我去偷竊，都會先抓人，追賊才能追贓，抓到賊才能以人來追贓，是不是這樣？傳統都是這樣，警察抓到犯人了，在他身上搜一搜，喔，發現很多贓款，那再去查失主是誰，是不是這樣子？院長。但是在現在虛擬貨幣的時代都是數位流通，有時候我被詐騙了，但是要確定兩點：第一，我是犯罪被害人；第二，這個財產是我的，而且我是因為犯罪受害，我才能去要求司法機關開出扣押裁定，是不是這樣子？您是學法的嘛！但是現在又出現一個問題，司法機關要確定這是詐騙，但是遇到虛幣的時候，他往往不發給裁定扣押，因為他還沒有抓到犯罪的人啊！實務上司法界還沒有抓到犯罪的人，被害人主動說我被騙了，我的錢在哪裡？在那裡。以前傳統的犯罪，就算是抓到了名畫、珠寶等贓物，但沒有抓到犯罪的人，誰去主張那個珠寶、名畫是他的？無法主張。但是虛幣可以，我可以主張這個虛幣是我的，查獲後可知這是我的，因為犯罪受害而損失的，我就可以要求裁定扣押，免得被轉出去。院長，可不可以指示法務部協助包括金管會針對這一點來幫忙打詐，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是金融創新之後一個新的型態，包括它的犯罪行為也是一個新的型態，這個當事人是不是適格，主體是不是出現，我想要請法務部來研究一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請法務部儘速研究，未來司法機關以追錢為優先，確認詐款路徑後，儘速向境外願合作之具實名制虛幣交易所來核發扣押裁定，好不好？請法務部研議。","好，我們看最後一頁。再來，主委，警示帳號這個我問過你，警察發現有人頭帳號就跟金融機構提出警示，要有聯防系統等等，但是有人積極，有人懶惰，上次問過你，您說會要求一起都要努力做，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經把相關單位請來做了非常非常嚴密的研究，我昨天才跟銀行局在推演怎麼樣去把這件事情做更……"],["鍾委員佳濱：確認？所以現在銀行都會積極配合了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，我們一定會要求……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看。但是有個問題，金融資訊暨聯防通報電子化平臺有兩個部分，一個是事前的徵信，包括農漁會信用部，都可以透過資料調閱處理，就像聯徵，但是它同時也是聯防通報。我想問，除了銀行，是不是所有的金融機構都有加入金融資訊暨聯防通報電子化平臺？主委，就你了解有沒有都加入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在是有加入，但是大家因為技術上的不足……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有都加入了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你確定？你要不要再確認一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可以馬上跟我們銀行局確認一下，不過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。如果沒有，是不是要求全部都要加入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於所有有助於阻詐……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個原則我很清楚，我告訴你問題在哪裡。現在如果沒有把全部的金融機構都納入這個聯防平臺，詐騙集團會利用在國內尚未加入平臺的金融機構，比如說，我們會注目的是什麼？個人帳戶，但是法人帳戶，一般有的銀行不受理個人帳戶，都是法人帳戶，結果詐團就利用這個缺點，把這些可能還沒有納入聯防平臺的，他就用50萬以下的方式把詐款多次匯到國外去。院長，如果知道有這個漏洞，是不是要求金管會，全部的金融機構都要納入我們的金融資訊暨聯防通報電子化平臺？"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會應該要求所有的金融機構加入平臺，我們也好做整體的規劃，對打詐這個工作才有辦法能有效的遏止。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後我提這三個訴求：提供第三方支付及虛擬資產服務業者，透過財金資訊公司查詢其他金融機構開戶時所留的手機號碼，有效來防止人頭帳戶；第二，協調司法機關儘速向境外具實名制的交易所核發扣押裁定；最後就是加入聯防機制。都可以做到嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們責成金管會要求各銀行都要做到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請吳秉叡委員質詢，沈發惠委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","廖偉翔","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","馬文君","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","吳秉叡","沈發惠","許宇甄","李昆澤","林思銘","葛如鈞","許智傑","林倩綺","蔡其昌","吳沛憶","李坤城","丁學忠","劉書彬"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00004","1143901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1143901_00004"}}}