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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 767.012, \"end\": 767.66, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 767.66, \"end\": 767.802, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"岳\", \"start\": 767.802, \"end\": 767.903, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"巡\", \"start\": 767.903, \"end\": 767.923, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,071 --> 00:00:07,736\n謝謝主席有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,264 --> 00:00:41,588\n部長早那根據去年的調查有13%15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計酬大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險\n\n3\n00:00:42,268 --> 00:00:59,763\n降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年\n\n4\n00:01:01,854 --> 00:01:16,036\n那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災\n\n5\n00:01:17,658 --> 00:01:44,425\n死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着\n\n6\n00:01:45,493 --> 00:01:51,624\n風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象\n\n7\n00:01:56,039 --> 00:02:21,644\n跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的\n\n8\n00:02:21,684 --> 00:02:31,154\n所以我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低\n\n9\n00:02:33,050 --> 00:02:52,286\n營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70\n\n10\n00:02:54,348 --> 00:03:18,306\n所以想問一下去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人可是2024年全年營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體\n\n11\n00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:40,406\n在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則\n\n12\n00:03:44,537 --> 00:04:08,633\n那個跟李委員說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商\n\n13\n00:04:09,454 --> 00:04:30,026\n的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠就責的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題\n\n14\n00:04:31,823 --> 00:04:48,580\n那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能\n\n15\n00:04:49,441 --> 00:05:16,695\n強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入好為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規\n\n16\n00:05:19,176 --> 00:05:34,034\n或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎\n\n17\n00:05:36,356 --> 00:05:53,993\n老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實它常常是比較後面它是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那它是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢災也需要甚至\n\n18\n00:05:54,774 --> 00:06:16,412\n其實也需要一些跨部會的合作我說跨部會合作比方說剛剛大家在講到營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的簡單的做法裡面我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好\n\n19\n00:06:18,015 --> 00:06:46,269\n我也想問部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨當然青少年也是我關心的一塊剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們\n\n20\n00:06:47,369 --> 00:07:11,150\n其實我想其實整體我我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少\n\n21\n00:07:11,650 --> 00:07:38,024\n所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣老公有更多這方面的意思跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭英國新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度記憶態度比我們台灣更高\n\n22\n00:07:38,783 --> 00:08:01,840\n他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全\n\n23\n00:08:04,332 --> 00:08:23,493\n能夠做投資可是相對台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是讓消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業\n\n24\n00:08:24,694 --> 00:08:38,886\n企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例\n\n25\n00:08:39,574 --> 00:08:59,465\n跟跟委員說明其實我們跟委員感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰\n\n26\n00:09:00,545 --> 00:09:18,973\n這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望您的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那\n\n27\n00:09:23,086 --> 00:09:50,553\n媒體報導今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行而且手段應該更精進\n\n28\n00:09:51,153 --> 00:10:18,165\n所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦誠的說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識\n\n29\n00:10:19,626 --> 00:10:31,310\n那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那\n\n30\n00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:48,674\n稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生勞資爭議也就是他們發動勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工\n\n31\n00:10:54,660 --> 00:11:09,845\n做委外派遣人員連資水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作10年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說\n\n32\n00:11:13,526 --> 00:11:26,582\n過去對政府單位習慣講將清潔保安這些工作為外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理\n\n33\n00:11:27,927 --> 00:11:53,821\n好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第4點其實就有說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該\n\n34\n00:11:55,819 --> 00:12:16,707\n應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並記然後來計算他的特休的日數那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數\n\n35\n00:12:17,927 --> 00:12:42,436\n所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特休的權益好謝謝部長也能夠持續協助他們謝謝\n\n36\n00:12:47,012 --> 00:12:47,923\n好謝謝林岳巡衛\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5071\t7736\t謝謝主席 有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長\n14264\t41588\t部長早那根據去年的調查有13%15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計酬大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險\n42268\t59763\t降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年\n61854\t76036\t那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍 荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災\n77658\t104425\t死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着\n105493\t111624\t風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象\n116039\t141644\t跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的\n141684\t151154\t所以我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低\n153050\t172286\t營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率 墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70\n174348\t198306\t所以想問一下去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人可是2024年全年營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體\n199110\t220406\t在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則\n224537\t248633\t那個跟李委員說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商\n249454\t270026\t的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠就責的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好 所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題\n271823\t288580\t那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能\n289441\t316695\t強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入好為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規\n319176\t334034\t或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎\n336356\t353993\t老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實它常常是比較後面它是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那它是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢災也需要甚至\n354774\t376412\t其實也需要一些跨部會的合作 我說跨部會合作 比方說剛剛大家在講到營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的簡單的做法裡面 我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好\n378015\t406269\t我也想問 部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨 當然青少年也是我關心的一塊 剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業 更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們\n407369\t431150\t其實我想其實整體我我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少\n431650\t458024\t所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣老公有更多這方面的意思跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭英國新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度記憶態度比我們台灣更高\n458783\t481840\t他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全\n484332\t503493\t能夠做投資可是相對台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是讓消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業\n504694\t518886\t企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例\n519574\t539465\t跟 跟委員說明其實我們跟委員感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰\n540545\t558973\t這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好 謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望您的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那\n563086\t590553\t媒體報導今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行而且手段應該更精進\n591153\t618165\t所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦誠的說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識\n619626\t631310\t那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那\n634400\t648674\t稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生勞資爭議也就是他們發動勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工\n654660\t669845\t做委外 派遣人員連資水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作10年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說\n673526\t686582\t過去對政府單位習慣講將清潔保安這些工作為外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理\n687927\t713821\t好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第4點其實就有說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該\n715819\t736707\t應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並記然後來計算他的特休的日數那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數\n737927\t762436\t所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特休的權益好 謝謝部長也能夠持續協助他們謝謝\n767012\t767923\t好 謝謝林岳巡衛\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長\n部長早那根據去年的調查有13%15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計酬大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險\n降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年\n那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍 荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災\n死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着\n風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象\n跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的\n所以我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低\n營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率 墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70\n所以想問一下去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人可是2024年全年營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體\n在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則\n那個跟李委員說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商\n的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠就責的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好 所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題\n那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能\n強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入好為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規\n或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎\n老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實它常常是比較後面它是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那它是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢災也需要甚至\n其實也需要一些跨部會的合作 我說跨部會合作 比方說剛剛大家在講到營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的簡單的做法裡面 我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好\n我也想問 部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨 當然青少年也是我關心的一塊 剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業 更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們\n其實我想其實整體我我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少\n所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣老公有更多這方面的意思跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭英國新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度記憶態度比我們台灣更高\n他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全\n能夠做投資可是相對台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是讓消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業\n企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例\n跟 跟委員說明其實我們跟委員感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰\n這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好 謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望您的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那\n媒體報導今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行而且手段應該更精進\n所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦誠的說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識\n那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那\n稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生勞資爭議也就是他們發動勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工\n做委外 派遣人員連資水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作10年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說\n過去對政府單位習慣講將清潔保安這些工作為外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理\n好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第4點其實就有說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該\n應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並記然後來計算他的特休的日數那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數\n所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特休的權益好 謝謝部長也能夠持續協助他們謝謝\n好 謝謝林岳巡衛\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.071 --> 00:07.736\n謝謝主席有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長\n\n00:14.264 --> 00:41.588\n部長早那根據去年的調查有13%15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計酬大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險\n\n00:42.268 --> 00:59.763\n降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年\n\n01:01.854 --> 01:16.036\n那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災\n\n01:17.658 --> 01:44.425\n死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着\n\n01:45.493 --> 01:51.624\n風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象\n\n01:56.039 --> 02:21.644\n跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的\n\n02:21.684 --> 02:31.154\n所以我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低\n\n02:33.050 --> 02:52.286\n營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70\n\n02:54.348 --> 03:18.306\n所以想問一下去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人可是2024年全年營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體\n\n03:19.110 --> 03:40.406\n在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則\n\n03:44.537 --> 04:08.633\n那個跟李委員說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商\n\n04:09.454 --> 04:30.026\n的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠就責的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題\n\n04:31.823 --> 04:48.580\n那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能\n\n04:49.441 --> 05:16.695\n強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入好為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規\n\n05:19.176 --> 05:34.034\n或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎\n\n05:36.356 --> 05:53.993\n老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實它常常是比較後面它是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那它是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢災也需要甚至\n\n05:54.774 --> 06:16.412\n其實也需要一些跨部會的合作我說跨部會合作比方說剛剛大家在講到營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的簡單的做法裡面我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好\n\n06:18.015 --> 06:46.269\n我也想問部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨當然青少年也是我關心的一塊剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們\n\n06:47.369 --> 07:11.150\n其實我想其實整體我我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少\n\n07:11.650 --> 07:38.024\n所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣老公有更多這方面的意思跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭英國新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度記憶態度比我們台灣更高\n\n07:38.783 --> 08:01.840\n他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全\n\n08:04.332 --> 08:23.493\n能夠做投資可是相對台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是讓消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業\n\n08:24.694 --> 08:38.886\n企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例\n\n08:39.574 --> 08:59.465\n跟跟委員說明其實我們跟委員感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰\n\n09:00.545 --> 09:18.973\n這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望您的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那\n\n09:23.086 --> 09:50.553\n媒體報導今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行而且手段應該更精進\n\n09:51.153 --> 10:18.165\n所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦誠的說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識\n\n10:19.626 --> 10:31.310\n那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那\n\n10:34.400 --> 10:48.674\n稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生勞資爭議也就是他們發動勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工\n\n10:54.660 --> 11:09.845\n做委外派遣人員連資水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作10年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說\n\n11:13.526 --> 11:26.582\n過去對政府單位習慣講將清潔保安這些工作為外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理\n\n11:27.927 --> 11:53.821\n好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第4點其實就有說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該\n\n11:55.819 --> 12:16.707\n應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並記然後來計算他的特休的日數那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數\n\n12:17.927 --> 12:42.436\n所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特休的權益好謝謝部長也能夠持續協助他們謝謝\n\n12:47.012 --> 12:47.923\n好謝謝林岳巡衛\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.071,"end":7.736,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":14.264,"end":41.588,"text":"部長早那根據去年的調查有13%15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計酬大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險"},{"start":42.268,"end":59.763,"text":"降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年"},{"start":61.854,"end":76.036,"text":"那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍 荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災"},{"start":77.658,"end":104.425,"text":"死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着"},{"start":105.493,"end":111.624,"text":"風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象"},{"start":116.039,"end":141.644,"text":"跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的"},{"start":141.684,"end":151.154,"text":"所以我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低"},{"start":153.05,"end":172.286,"text":"營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率 墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70"},{"start":174.348,"end":198.306,"text":"所以想問一下去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人可是2024年全年營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體"},{"start":199.11,"end":220.406,"text":"在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則"},{"start":224.537,"end":248.633,"text":"那個跟李委員說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商"},{"start":249.454,"end":270.026,"text":"的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠就責的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好 所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題"},{"start":271.823,"end":288.58,"text":"那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能"},{"start":289.441,"end":316.695,"text":"強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入好為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規"},{"start":319.176,"end":334.034,"text":"或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎"},{"start":336.356,"end":353.993,"text":"老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實它常常是比較後面它是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那它是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢災也需要甚至"},{"start":354.774,"end":376.412,"text":"其實也需要一些跨部會的合作 我說跨部會合作 比方說剛剛大家在講到營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的簡單的做法裡面 我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好"},{"start":378.015,"end":406.269,"text":"我也想問 部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨 當然青少年也是我關心的一塊 剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業 更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們"},{"start":407.369,"end":431.15,"text":"其實我想其實整體我我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少"},{"start":431.65,"end":458.024,"text":"所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣老公有更多這方面的意思跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭英國新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度記憶態度比我們台灣更高"},{"start":458.783,"end":481.84,"text":"他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全"},{"start":484.332,"end":503.493,"text":"能夠做投資可是相對台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是讓消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業"},{"start":504.694,"end":518.886,"text":"企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例"},{"start":519.574,"end":539.465,"text":"跟 跟委員說明其實我們跟委員感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰"},{"start":540.545,"end":558.973,"text":"這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好 謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望您的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那"},{"start":563.086,"end":590.553,"text":"媒體報導今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行而且手段應該更精進"},{"start":591.153,"end":618.165,"text":"所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦誠的說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識"},{"start":619.626,"end":631.31,"text":"那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那"},{"start":634.4,"end":648.674,"text":"稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生勞資爭議也就是他們發動勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工"},{"start":654.66,"end":669.845,"text":"做委外 派遣人員連資水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作10年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說"},{"start":673.526,"end":686.582,"text":"過去對政府單位習慣講將清潔保安這些工作為外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理"},{"start":687.927,"end":713.821,"text":"好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第4點其實就有說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該"},{"start":715.819,"end":736.707,"text":"應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並記然後來計算他的特休的日數那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數"},{"start":737.927,"end":762.436,"text":"所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特休的權益好 謝謝部長也能夠持續協助他們謝謝"},{"start":767.012,"end":767.923,"text":"好 謝謝林岳巡衛"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":216,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時22分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。根據去年的調查，有13%的15到19歲青少年選擇從事營造工作，占據第三，這個工作俗稱小工或散工，特性便是薪水相對高，按日計酬，大概一天1,200到1,800左右，但是臨時性的，危險性也高，多半是沒有勞健保的，這個行業有高薪的吸引力，可是很危險，造成營造業的高職災率及高職災死亡率，特別是高處墜落導致死亡的議題，事實上主要是在保護勞工產業，甚至是我一直很關心的青少年。","根據新加坡2022年的數據，臺灣重大職災每10萬人的死亡率，事實上是新加坡的2倍，日本是1.8倍，荷蘭是9倍，臺灣的職災死亡又以營造業事實上是最多，在2024年國內職災的死亡率，營造業占50.33%，為製造業的6.4倍，其他產業的28倍。所以想問部長，營造業從業人數僅占勞工比例的6%而已，但死亡人數長期是居各產業之冠，5年逐年占比45%到50%，在職災的管理上，這意味著風險集中，其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題，請問部長，你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實營造業在臺灣目前大概占的重大職災超過50%，我們檢討的原因主要是目前在臺灣的營造工地層層轉包的情形非常嚴重，在轉包的過程中，將風險就一併轉嫁到下包，所以在我們這次的職安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊，就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的工作。"],["林委員月琴：我看勞動部也是希望針對降低營造業高度墜落致死的部分要做強化，不過本席也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低營造業職災死亡率的效果，為什麼這樣講呢？根據近6年來的統計，新加坡跟日本營造業的墜落致死率大概是40%左右，韓國的確比較高，在53%左右，可臺灣更高，比率達60%到70%。去年勞動部把降低營造業墜落死亡列為重點項目，剛才部長也有報告，宣稱2024年是營造業墜落打擊年，目標是死亡人數要低於68人，可是2024年全年營造業的墜落死亡人數事實上是83人，占整體受傷人數比率是56.3%，所以是沒有達標。部長，政策推動一年，營造業墜落死亡人數確實有下降，可是效果不如預期，難保一個放鬆數字又會上升上來。所以想請問部長，你認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠？是不是有計畫加強我們的檢查跟罰則？"],["洪部長申翰：跟林委員說明，其實我們確實有參考一些其他國家的經驗，比方說委員剛才講到新加坡，在新加坡的例子裡面，我們看到新加坡他們業主的責任很重，我們過去在職安法裡面對於業主其實比較難去課責跟究責，比較多的都是追究下面包商的責任，所以這一次在職安法裡面，我們也把業主的責任、能夠究責的部分給放進來，這也是我們參考剛才委員所說的其他國家的經驗，我們在做了參考跟檢討以後，覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂。"],["林委員月琴：好，所以要麻煩了，因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題。以勞動部歷年的報告來分析，營造業發生職災的肇事原因包括防護設備配置不當、支架等本體強度不足、防墜器性能強度不足，還有個人護具佩戴不確實，在工地管理上，不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主沒有善盡教育訓練的責任、故意違規等等，這些都是問題。職安法對於職業安全管理以「自主管理為原則，政府介入為特殊狀況」的態度立法，在實務上政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報違規或者是政府主動發起專案檢查，才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段。部長，勞動檢查每年都在做，這些作法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們職災的發生率跟死亡嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：勞檢是手段之一，其實我想大家也知道，勞檢常常是比較後面的，是要讓我們的法規能夠真的被落實，它是方法之一，可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查，所以包括源頭部分的減災也需要，甚至也需要一些跨部會的合作，我說的跨部會合作，比方剛剛大家講到營造業的部分，我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署，也就是目的事業主管機關，我們看看怎麼跟他們一起來合作，在整體的減災作法裡面，我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好。"],["林委員月琴：部長，因為我一直很關心我們的兒少，青少年也是我關心的一塊，剛剛前面也講到有13%的青少年是從事營造業，而且是15歲到24歲，尤其15歲到16歲的本來不應該進入這個行業，更何況17歲到18歲本來就有更多的保障，所以勞動部要如何提升一些安全意識，尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升，這可能也不是只針對青少年的部分，我自己也認為，包括營造業的法遵能夠做得到位，包括他們安全衛生管理的相關機制能夠做得到位，可能才有辦法比較真正地去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或兒少，所以還是必須從根本的原因去做思考，如果有需要的話，對於很多的工安文化，怎麼讓勞工有更多這方面的意識跟教育這部分，當然我們也希望能夠多做。"],["林委員月琴：好，因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦，而且營造業本來風險就比較高。","參考荷蘭、英國、新加坡等國家，對於職業安全的態度比我們臺灣積極很多，他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告，違規停業處分，甚至要求勞工參與監督制度，安全預算納入工程總預算，或者是專項整治高風險的工地等手段，目的就是確保產業可以投入足夠經費在職業安全的投資上，可是相對於臺灣，這個投資的觀念並不普遍，我認為原因應該我簡報資料上的這幾點，包括法律未明定比例、產業真的不夠重視、我們的投資態度消極，而且官方沒有什麼數據。想請問一下，營造業企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源？這個部分勞動部有沒有掌握？還有，政府除了宣導鼓勵以外，有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實我們跟委員的感受是一樣的，也就是說，過去針對風險的評估做得不夠，也沒有入法，所以這一次，我說的是這次職安法的修法，我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任，而且要提撥一定的經費用於安全衛生投資等也都寫到這個法規裡面，讓下面的承包商有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟工地的管理，這也是這次我們修法的重點之一。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長，這樣很好，那就希望你們的法案趕快能夠送進來，能夠保障他們。","另外，媒體報導自今年初到3月底，光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導了6起，有10人死亡、58人受傷，其中營造業的職安事件就占了一半，這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件。去年勞動部以降低營造業墜落死亡為重點項目，目標死亡人數訂在68人以下，今年應該持續進行，而且手段應該要更精進。所以我想問一下部長，今年的目標是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：我們今年的目標還是68人，我必須很坦承的說，因為去年還有沒做到的部分，但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來達成這個目標。"],["林委員月琴：好，那就麻煩部長，針對我現在提出來的兩點，第一個是提高營造業勞工的工地安全意識，畢竟我剛剛有提到，我關心的青少年那一塊也還在這個工作場域裡邊，另一個是增加營造業職業安全的投資比例，以上兩點是不是可以在兩週內給我具體的書面報告？"],["洪部長申翰：可以。"],["林委員月琴：召委，請再給我一點時間，我再問部長一個問題。","4月初，北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下，跟北捷公司發生勞資爭議，勞工主訴北捷將清潔工作委外，派遣人員的年資隨北捷跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷，因此有勞工工作10年還是只有3天特休的爭議。這個案子勞工有向勞動部陳情，所以想問部長，對於過去政府單位習慣將清潔、保安等工作委外的作法，勞動部的看法是什麼？針對本案，勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利？或者是預計怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：好，我們其實非常非常關注北捷跟清潔人員的這個案子，其實勞動部為了保障派駐勞工的權益，我們是訂有勞務承攬參考原則，其中針對特休的計算，我們就有明定應該優於法令給假，在參考原則第四點就有規定，提供勞務而未中斷年資者，應該從他在這個機關工作的第一日開始，相關的年資都應該併計，然後依此計算他的特休日數。工程會也訂定了勞務採購契約範本告訴這些承攬的廠商，同一機關如果未中斷服務年資的話，應該合併計算給予特休的天數。所以確實，如果從資料上面看到的這些清潔人員的陳情屬實的話，目前看起來北捷很可能違反了我們訂定的參考原則還有工程會的契約範本，所以本週一我們已經發函給臺北捷運，要求他們應該要落實法規，應該依法讓清潔人員有特休的權益。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長，也希望能夠再持續協助他們。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位我們請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}}