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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:43:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:57:35+08:00","duration":852,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160758","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160758","tool":"pyannote","id":"160758-pyannote"},"job_id":"uCAYImtJXduJio2E","queued_at":"2025-04-30 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00:01:29,631\n你沒有辦法所以還是一樣啊在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊那這個民間的部門還是很雜亂啊那我為什麼提到這一點你們這個江文權江市長我剛才還到他的位置跟他確認他是非常非常清楚在12年前的時候本席就提出了\n\n5\n00:01:30,251 --> 00:01:53,883\n在這個陳寶基主委的時候我希望能夠協助你們我也一直倡議針對民間收容所的部分我如何在它的設施設備硬體當中給予導入因為包括你的污染啊廢水處理的污染啊你的排泄物的污染啊包括你的噪音啊它對於鄰居的部分是不是那個地點適合啊\n\n6\n00:01:54,883 --> 00:02:01,427\n然後呢這個包括它我一直希望導入家福系統對於我們人當中的家福系統的一個制度我們有哪些專業的人力有獸醫師的配合有檢查這個你進來當中有一些該有的一個動物福利的相關的人員的\n\n7\n00:02:16,816 --> 00:02:39,152\n導入在這個民間的狗場裡面或貓場裡面的去扶植他們的專業人力但是你們沒做你們申請下來之後擅自挪用本席的主張全部投入公立收容所的修建然後對於各個民間場域的專業人力你有愛心不代表有專業啊\n\n8\n00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:55,414\n但是你們也沒有投入剛才文泉這個師長是說因為當初爭取的中期計畫行政院是給了六成六成還是可以做事啊你光是經過這12年如果你真的用心輔導私人的這個\n\n9\n00:02:57,536 --> 00:03:07,224\n流浪狗的收容的地方你早就可以做出一些神蹟了你們沒有可是即使你到現在你聽到你的這個質詢聽到你的報告我認為還是一樣成科依舊你沒有什麼作為啦然後你說加強事主的責任好那我們來看今天本席我提出來了\n\n10\n00:03:17,512 --> 00:03:20,514\n這個我認為TNR我沒有反對TNR聽好我沒有反對TNR我認為農業部帶動的是TNR之後的配套的管理措施是沒有的所以你看這個是\n\n11\n00:03:47,632 --> 00:03:52,760\n的選擇的襲擊巢穴這是學者專家他在保護他又有那個監視系統怎麼發現到怎麼會是出現流浪狗來把他襲擊的所以這是學者專家有在保護的敏感區域其實是有的\n\n12\n00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:31,105\n所以這個部分你們是可以介入做相關的加強巡檢所以流浪狗的管流浪犬的管理證明你們如果採用TNR補妝絕育回治意圖是要降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量但是我們變成流浪犬隻卻成群結隊的攻擊其他的民眾或保育類的動物那我們來看這則新聞比特犬在4年前你們就把比特犬列為指定禁止飼養的數目\n\n13\n00:04:32,245 --> 00:04:36,667\n輸入的動物飼養或輸入的動物這個政策好不好也好啊但PETA有沒有沒有啊所以你們對於現有持有比特犬的飼主你要求他說你要來登記那真的登記了嗎好那反而沒有登記的這個政策一出之後變成什麼大量的比特犬大量的棄養\n\n14\n00:04:58,577 --> 00:05:14,408\n所以他可能棄養之後他自己再跟其他的物種衍生了一些生育的問題所以那另外的流氧這個比特捲的飼主那你有沒有教育他也沒有啊所以光是你這個版本說加強飼主責任你們院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎我想可能等期點出來看你們會不會去做了好再來我們第一線的人員缺乏動物處置的專業我不講動檢員\n\n15\n00:05:28,877 --> 00:05:35,698\n我不講洞檢委我就先講這個我不要講到那麼高層次你看這個是今年的判決桃園農業局的濟公他遭判八個月但是他大概是在前兩年的時候發生的就是東非的廢廢遭獵人獵殺六福村的一頭東非的廢廢遭圍捕時重擔身亡對獵人發出指令的是桃園市的農業局的前濟公\n\n16\n00:05:58,282 --> 00:06:21,776\n但是獵人是沒事的技工是有事的我認為為這位技工抱不平的地方是他找誰他找獵人獵人的專長是什麼他就是在獵殺動物但是你說他不找獵人我們有專業的人力是安全捕抓的動物捕抓員嗎\n\n17\n00:06:23,257 --> 00:06:40,365\n安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎沒有所以你叫公務人員他真的要去抓的時候他要叫誰沒有專業的安全捕捉的動物人員他請了獵人獵人不是動物不是安全捕捉的專業他們是獵殺動物的專業\n\n18\n00:06:43,226 --> 00:06:50,528\n所以這個是很冤枉的一件事所以如果你的本你的這個版本出來之後凍檢員的執法賦能我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況所以我才說只是安全普照的專業人員還不到凍檢員的層次喔光是這樣你讓我基層的凍保人員凍保的公務人員要下指令的時候他要找誰\n\n19\n00:07:09,121 --> 00:07:24,318\n連安全補助都沒有所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻的政策的時候忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響而地方農政這是你們中央地方農政雖然有動保處但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護的專業訓練沒有專業的\n\n20\n00:07:28,802 --> 00:07:50,267\n裝置器具也沒有相關的配套反映出中央地方政府對動保議題是什麼頭痛醫頭腳透音腳啊其實你的版本出來還是這樣啊所以本席有幾個建議啊第一個檢討現行的TNR政策禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區譬如石斧啦草蕭啊等保育動物\n\n21\n00:07:51,727 --> 00:08:10,660\n物種啊這個出沒的區域而且這些區域要強化專能巡檢針對這個動物流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突你要制定前期的預防跟整合管理好真的聽啊第二對於遭棄養且居高攻擊性的流浪物種尤其還要寒喔他去混種衍生的犬隻喔\n\n22\n00:08:14,783 --> 00:08:41,352\n這個東西你們怎麼去找出來所以制定於有別TNR的具體措施也就這些攻擊的物種你不能再實行TNR了把它掘渣之後再放置棄養的話我抓到再放置你要怎麼的管理啊這才是重點啊而且對於現有的氏族你既然你已經允許他保有他現有的這些比特權的部分那這些氏族你要怎麼的訓練啊\n\n23\n00:08:43,132 --> 00:09:09,579\n你才能他要不然他只要他這個東西就是比特選他站在後他自主把他載在後面天窗一開他就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車主所以這個是你們要去預防的第三個中央統籌辦理提升地方執行人員我說中央統籌喔你不要各地方政府在自己去辦喔因為到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護的專業訓練\n\n24\n00:09:12,025 --> 00:09:34,002\n安全捕抓只是其中一項所以對中央同仁你要提升到中央可能是統一辦理全國只要有關相關地方執法的人員他的法規的常識他的專業的訓練通通都要有提高緊急事件的應變能力令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行部長你怎麼看\n\n25\n00:09:35,271 --> 00:10:01,414\n這三個建議非常謝謝委員的一些建議您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題而且我認為這邊寫的這個三點主張我認為在不修法的過程中我們也應該要做那特別在那個TNR的部分我們現在已經就是有一個SOP就是說在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區的部分我們在回治的時候就不去往那個地方去做回治這第一個部分第二個部分就是\n\n26\n00:10:01,934 --> 00:10:30,121\n具高攻擊性的這些犬隻包括它的雜交犬後代的部分我也認同就是說它跟有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的它的回適的方式是絕對不一樣的所以這個部分我想不修法我們也會來做那第三個部分專業訓練我想我們也可以立即來做就是我要求我們的動保師那你對民間的收容所的部分怎麼處理那第四個部分的民間收容所我們也認同我個人認為認同這個方向但是相對的就是\n\n27\n00:10:31,221 --> 00:10:40,647\n可能要有一段的輔導期不然如果強制去納管造成衛生安全的時候沒有一個民間場如果合格的時候那個部長這樣啦我再重提請你們姜文泉姜師長提出來然後您來做核定做審查跟核定再提出一次的中長城的這個計畫而且是針對私人的這個動物保護場\n\n28\n00:10:59,319 --> 00:11:17,136\n那你一定會涉及說那個土地不是合法的用地我沒有意見你們看怎麼針對有合法用地沒有合法用地以及不能影響到周邊的居民的民眾的也不能影響到保護動物的這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程的計畫12年過了一四五成\n\n29\n00:11:20,939 --> 00:11:48,090\n本席所提的現在還是委員提出來所以這個部分你要不要這個評估一下提出中長期針對私人這個動物流浪犬貓的收容所的部分你要做一個中長程的計畫我想收容所的一個建制不管是公立的或私人的它是一致性但是後續的經費的比例可以有一部分的比例去做部長我現在是以立委的身份來支持你我知道\n\n30\n00:11:48,430 --> 00:12:10,681\n我現在是因為你功力受到什麼已經用了那一筆12年前我建議的部分挪用去做了我現在把你私人的為什麼我倡議私人你要納入因為他也是你管啊有些過多的功力的部分是不是有可能也移到民間因為動物不像人啊我人住在高雄住久了你要叫我搬到台北我會不適應啊\n\n31\n00:12:12,122 --> 00:12:30,158\n但是狗狗貓貓不是說他們沒有這個問題可是當哪一個地方他有容納的空間的時候你可以在私人跟公司之間你可以去怎麼樣的納有一個大水庫的納位我的想法是不是私人就私人公立而是公司是一體的因為我們的量要再增加這種收容的場所\n\n32\n00:12:35,663 --> 00:12:46,911\n是有限的因為他是一個零幣設施嘛你設在哪裡人家就抗議嘛所以你只有就現有的私立的部分有可能可以納管在不影響民眾不影響保育的情況之下我們納管\n\n33\n00:12:51,614 --> 00:13:17,102\n環保做好把水做好把噪音做好該有的動物福利做好租出幾個典範那這個是要你現有的預算是不夠的部長是公司的空間要整合在一塊而不是獨立你才有辦法去嘗試的把已經過量的公立收容所的部分唱怎麼可能的納到民間來那民間的部分也因為有你們的輔導有愛心必定有專業我一直強調有這個\n\n34\n00:13:21,283 --> 00:13:41,488\n包括他的動物福利的設施我最在意的就是那個污染跟噪音啊那個才是民怨之所在那你要輔導他要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染呢排水系統的排是區域排水是地方政府在管這個污水處理這個部分也是地方政府在管可是你要不要跟他整合在管\n\n35\n00:13:42,348 --> 00:14:05,655\n要啊我們任何工廠的設立任何的機關私立的這個民宅的設立他都有法規規定你怎麼去接我地方的區域排水地方的污水系統所以你這個怎麼能夠獨立呢當然你一直都在如果你不處理私人的部分納入你公立的納管當中你永遠都沒有辦法處理解決那個量你永遠都沒有辦法去處理他那個污染跟噪音的問題好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9346\t9920\t好有請部長\n17267\t44902\t好 部長您在這個報告當中有提到這個行政院的版本但本席認為是不是真的能夠解決相關現實面的成科的問題本席是強烈的質疑第一個你說加強事主的責任你說凍檢員的執法的賦權以及提升動物收容管理好 光是動物收容管理我剛才很清楚的聽到幾個提案委員\n46323\t69434\t不管是郭玉京 郭委員 或者是民眾黨的版本那你們都說你們是支持納管民間東部收容所的喔可是考量到地方行政能量及無法取得合法用地之狗場退場的困境那也表示說無解啊所以你這個法通過之後你對於整個收容量的增加\n70799\t89631\t你沒有辦法所以還是一樣啊在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊那這個民間的部門還是很雜亂啊那我為什麼提到這一點你們這個江文權江市長我剛才還到他的位置跟他確認他是非常非常清楚在12年前的時候本席就提出了\n90251\t113883\t在這個陳寶基主委的時候 我希望能夠協助你們 我也一直倡議針對民間收容所的部分 我如何在它的設施 設備 硬體當中給予導入因為包括你的污染啊 廢水處理的污染啊 你的排泄物的污染啊包括你的噪音啊 它對於鄰居的部分 是不是那個地點適合啊\n114883\t121427\t然後呢 這個包括它 我一直希望導入家福系統對於我們人當中的家福系統的一個制度我們有哪些專業的人力有獸醫師的配合 有檢查 這個你進來當中有一些該有的一個動物福利的相關的人員的\n136816\t159152\t導入在這個民間的狗場裡面或貓場裡面的去扶植他們的專業人力但是你們沒做你們申請下來之後擅自挪用本席的主張全部投入公立收容所的修建然後對於各個民間場域的專業人力你有愛心不代表有專業啊\n160560\t175414\t但是你們也沒有投入剛才文泉這個師長是說因為當初爭取的中期計畫行政院是給了六成 六成還是可以做事啊你光是經過這12年如果你真的用心輔導私人的這個\n177536\t187224\t流浪狗的收容的地方 你早就可以做出一些神蹟了你們沒有 可是即使你到現在你聽到你的這個質詢 聽到你的報告我認為還是一樣 成科依舊你沒有什麼作為啦 然後你說加強事主的責任好 那我們來看今天本席 我提出來了\n197512\t200514\t這個我認為TNR我沒有反對TNR聽好我沒有反對TNR我認為農業部帶動的是TNR之後的配套的管理措施是沒有的所以你看這個是\n227632\t232760\t的選擇的襲擊巢穴這是學者專家他在保護他又有那個監視系統怎麼發現到怎麼會是出現流浪狗來把他襲擊的所以這是學者專家有在保護的敏感區域其實是有的\n242876\t271105\t所以這個部分你們是可以介入做相關的加強巡檢所以流浪狗的管流浪犬的管理證明你們如果採用TNR補妝絕育回治意圖是要降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量但是我們變成流浪犬隻卻成群結隊的攻擊其他的民眾或保育類的動物那我們來看這則新聞比特犬在4年前你們就把比特犬列為指定禁止飼養的數目\n272245\t276667\t輸入的動物 飼養或輸入的動物這個政策好不好也好啊但PETA有沒有 沒有啊所以你們對於現有持有比特犬的飼主你要求他說你要來登記那真的登記了嗎好 那反而沒有登記的這個政策一出之後變成什麼大量的比特犬大量的棄養\n298577\t314408\t所以他可能棄養之後他自己再跟其他的物種衍生了一些生育的問題所以那另外的流氧這個比特捲的飼主那你有沒有教育他也沒有啊所以光是你這個版本說加強飼主責任你們院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎我想可能等期點出來看你們會不會去做了好再來我們第一線的人員缺乏動物處置的專業我不講動檢員\n328877\t335698\t我不講洞檢委我就先講這個我不要講到那麼高層次你看這個是今年的判決桃園農業局的濟公他遭判八個月但是他大概是在前兩年的時候發生的就是東非的廢廢遭獵人獵殺六福村的一頭東非的廢廢遭圍捕時重擔身亡對獵人發出指令的是桃園市的農業局的前濟公\n358282\t381776\t但是獵人是沒事的 技工是有事的我認為為這位技工抱不平的地方是 他找誰 他找獵人獵人的專長是什麼 他就是在獵殺動物但是你說他不找獵人 我們有專業的人力是安全捕抓的動物捕抓員嗎\n383257\t400365\t安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎沒有所以你叫公務人員他真的要去抓的時候他要叫誰沒有專業的安全捕捉的動物人員他請了獵人獵人不是動物不是安全捕捉的專業他們是獵殺動物的專業\n403226\t410528\t所以這個是很冤枉的一件事 所以如果你的本你的這個版本出來之後 凍檢員的執法賦能我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況所以我才說 只是安全普照的專業人員還不到凍檢員的層次喔光是這樣 你讓我基層的凍保人員凍保的公務人員要下指令的時候 他要找誰\n429121\t444318\t連安全補助都沒有所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻的政策的時候忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響而地方農政 這是你們中央地方農政雖然有動保處但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護的專業訓練沒有專業的\n448802\t470267\t裝置器具也沒有相關的配套反映出中央地方政府對動保議題是什麼頭痛醫頭腳透音腳啊其實你的版本出來還是這樣啊所以本席有幾個建議啊第一個檢討現行的TNR政策禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區譬如石斧啦草蕭啊等保育動物\n471727\t490660\t物種啊這個出沒的區域而且這些區域要強化專能巡檢針對這個動物流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突你要制定前期的預防跟整合管理好真的聽啊第二對於遭棄養且居高攻擊性的流浪物種尤其還要寒喔他去混種衍生的犬隻喔\n494783\t521352\t這個東西你們怎麼去找出來所以制定於有別TNR的具體措施也就這些攻擊的物種你不能再實行TNR了把它掘渣之後再放置棄養的話我抓到再放置你要怎麼的管理啊這才是重點啊而且對於現有的氏族你既然你已經允許他保有他現有的這些比特權的部分那這些氏族你要怎麼的訓練啊\n523132\t549579\t你才能 他要不然他只要 他這個東西就是比特選 他站在後他自主把他載在後面 天窗一開他就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車主所以這個是你們要去預防的第三個 中央統籌辦理 提升地方執行人員我說中央統籌喔你不要各地方政府在自己去辦喔因為到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護的專業訓練\n552025\t574002\t安全捕抓只是其中一項所以對中央同仁你要提升到中央可能是統一辦理全國只要有關相關地方執法的人員他的法規的常識他的專業的訓練通通都要有提高緊急事件的應變能力令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行部長你怎麼看\n575271\t601414\t這三個建議非常謝謝委員的一些建議您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題而且我認為這邊寫的這個三點主張我認為在不修法的過程中我們也應該要做那特別在那個TNR的部分我們現在已經就是有一個SOP就是說在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區的部分我們在回治的時候就不去往那個地方去做回治這第一個部分第二個部分就是\n601934\t630121\t具高攻擊性的這些犬隻包括它的雜交犬後代的部分我也認同就是說它跟有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的它的回適的方式是絕對不一樣的所以這個部分我想不修法我們也會來做那第三個部分專業訓練我想我們也可以立即來做就是我要求我們的動保師那你對民間的收容所的部分怎麼處理那第四個部分的民間收容所我們也認同我個人認為認同這個方向但是相對的就是\n631221\t640647\t可能要有一段的輔導期不然如果強制去納管造成衛生安全的時候沒有一個民間場如果合格的時候那個部長這樣啦我再重提請你們姜文泉姜師長提出來然後您來做核定做審查跟核定再提出一次的中長城的這個計畫而且是針對私人的這個動物保護場\n659319\t677136\t那你一定會涉及說那個土地不是合法的用地我沒有意見你們看怎麼針對有合法用地沒有合法用地以及不能影響到周邊的居民的民眾的也不能影響到保護動物的這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程的計畫12年過了一四五成\n680939\t708090\t本席所提的現在還是委員提出來所以這個部分你要不要這個評估一下提出中長期針對私人這個動物流浪犬貓的收容所的部分你要做一個中長程的計畫我想收容所的一個建制不管是公立的或私人的它是一致性但是後續的經費的比例可以有一部分的比例去做部長我現在是以立委的身份來支持你我知道\n708430\t730681\t我現在是因為你功力受到什麼 已經用了那一筆12年前我建議的部分挪用去做了我現在把你私人的 為什麼我倡議私人你要納入因為他也是你管啊 有些過多的功力的部分是不是有可能也移到民間因為動物不像人啊 我人住在高雄住久了你要叫我搬到台北 我會不適應啊\n732122\t750158\t但是狗狗貓貓不是說他們沒有這個問題可是當哪一個地方他有容納的空間的時候你可以在私人跟公司之間你可以去怎麼樣的納有一個大水庫的納位我的想法是不是私人就私人公立而是公司是一體的因為我們的量要再增加這種收容的場所\n755663\t766911\t是有限的 因為他是一個零幣設施嘛你設在哪裡人家就抗議嘛所以你只有就現有的私立的部分有可能可以納管在不影響民眾不影響保育的情況之下我們納管\n771614\t797102\t環保做好 把水做好 把噪音做好該有的動物福利做好 租出幾個典範那這個是要你現有的預算是不夠的部長 是公司的空間要整合在一塊而不是獨立 你才有辦法去嘗試的把已經過量的公立收容所的部分唱怎麼可能的納到民間來那民間的部分也因為有你們的輔導有愛心必定有專業 我一直強調有這個\n801283\t821488\t包括他的動物福利的設施我最在意的就是那個污染跟噪音啊那個才是民怨之所在那你要輔導他要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染呢排水系統的排是區域排水是地方政府在管這個污水處理這個部分也是地方政府在管可是你要不要跟他整合在管\n822348\t845655\t要啊我們任何工廠的設立任何的機關私立的這個民宅的設立他都有法規規定你怎麼去接我地方的區域排水地方的污水系統所以你這個怎麼能夠獨立呢當然你一直都在如果你不處理私人的部分納入你公立的納管當中你永遠都沒有辦法處理解決那個量你永遠都沒有辦法去處理他那個污染跟噪音的問題好 以上 謝謝\n","txt":"好有請部長\n好 部長您在這個報告當中有提到這個行政院的版本但本席認為是不是真的能夠解決相關現實面的成科的問題本席是強烈的質疑第一個你說加強事主的責任你說凍檢員的執法的賦權以及提升動物收容管理好 光是動物收容管理我剛才很清楚的聽到幾個提案委員\n不管是郭玉京 郭委員 或者是民眾黨的版本那你們都說你們是支持納管民間東部收容所的喔可是考量到地方行政能量及無法取得合法用地之狗場退場的困境那也表示說無解啊所以你這個法通過之後你對於整個收容量的增加\n你沒有辦法所以還是一樣啊在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊那這個民間的部門還是很雜亂啊那我為什麼提到這一點你們這個江文權江市長我剛才還到他的位置跟他確認他是非常非常清楚在12年前的時候本席就提出了\n在這個陳寶基主委的時候 我希望能夠協助你們 我也一直倡議針對民間收容所的部分 我如何在它的設施 設備 硬體當中給予導入因為包括你的污染啊 廢水處理的污染啊 你的排泄物的污染啊包括你的噪音啊 它對於鄰居的部分 是不是那個地點適合啊\n然後呢 這個包括它 我一直希望導入家福系統對於我們人當中的家福系統的一個制度我們有哪些專業的人力有獸醫師的配合 有檢查 這個你進來當中有一些該有的一個動物福利的相關的人員的\n導入在這個民間的狗場裡面或貓場裡面的去扶植他們的專業人力但是你們沒做你們申請下來之後擅自挪用本席的主張全部投入公立收容所的修建然後對於各個民間場域的專業人力你有愛心不代表有專業啊\n但是你們也沒有投入剛才文泉這個師長是說因為當初爭取的中期計畫行政院是給了六成 六成還是可以做事啊你光是經過這12年如果你真的用心輔導私人的這個\n流浪狗的收容的地方 你早就可以做出一些神蹟了你們沒有 可是即使你到現在你聽到你的這個質詢 聽到你的報告我認為還是一樣 成科依舊你沒有什麼作為啦 然後你說加強事主的責任好 那我們來看今天本席 我提出來了\n這個我認為TNR我沒有反對TNR聽好我沒有反對TNR我認為農業部帶動的是TNR之後的配套的管理措施是沒有的所以你看這個是\n的選擇的襲擊巢穴這是學者專家他在保護他又有那個監視系統怎麼發現到怎麼會是出現流浪狗來把他襲擊的所以這是學者專家有在保護的敏感區域其實是有的\n所以這個部分你們是可以介入做相關的加強巡檢所以流浪狗的管流浪犬的管理證明你們如果採用TNR補妝絕育回治意圖是要降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量但是我們變成流浪犬隻卻成群結隊的攻擊其他的民眾或保育類的動物那我們來看這則新聞比特犬在4年前你們就把比特犬列為指定禁止飼養的數目\n輸入的動物 飼養或輸入的動物這個政策好不好也好啊但PETA有沒有 沒有啊所以你們對於現有持有比特犬的飼主你要求他說你要來登記那真的登記了嗎好 那反而沒有登記的這個政策一出之後變成什麼大量的比特犬大量的棄養\n所以他可能棄養之後他自己再跟其他的物種衍生了一些生育的問題所以那另外的流氧這個比特捲的飼主那你有沒有教育他也沒有啊所以光是你這個版本說加強飼主責任你們院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎我想可能等期點出來看你們會不會去做了好再來我們第一線的人員缺乏動物處置的專業我不講動檢員\n我不講洞檢委我就先講這個我不要講到那麼高層次你看這個是今年的判決桃園農業局的濟公他遭判八個月但是他大概是在前兩年的時候發生的就是東非的廢廢遭獵人獵殺六福村的一頭東非的廢廢遭圍捕時重擔身亡對獵人發出指令的是桃園市的農業局的前濟公\n但是獵人是沒事的 技工是有事的我認為為這位技工抱不平的地方是 他找誰 他找獵人獵人的專長是什麼 他就是在獵殺動物但是你說他不找獵人 我們有專業的人力是安全捕抓的動物捕抓員嗎\n安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎沒有所以你叫公務人員他真的要去抓的時候他要叫誰沒有專業的安全捕捉的動物人員他請了獵人獵人不是動物不是安全捕捉的專業他們是獵殺動物的專業\n所以這個是很冤枉的一件事 所以如果你的本你的這個版本出來之後 凍檢員的執法賦能我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況所以我才說 只是安全普照的專業人員還不到凍檢員的層次喔光是這樣 你讓我基層的凍保人員凍保的公務人員要下指令的時候 他要找誰\n連安全補助都沒有所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻的政策的時候忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響而地方農政 這是你們中央地方農政雖然有動保處但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護的專業訓練沒有專業的\n裝置器具也沒有相關的配套反映出中央地方政府對動保議題是什麼頭痛醫頭腳透音腳啊其實你的版本出來還是這樣啊所以本席有幾個建議啊第一個檢討現行的TNR政策禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區譬如石斧啦草蕭啊等保育動物\n物種啊這個出沒的區域而且這些區域要強化專能巡檢針對這個動物流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突你要制定前期的預防跟整合管理好真的聽啊第二對於遭棄養且居高攻擊性的流浪物種尤其還要寒喔他去混種衍生的犬隻喔\n這個東西你們怎麼去找出來所以制定於有別TNR的具體措施也就這些攻擊的物種你不能再實行TNR了把它掘渣之後再放置棄養的話我抓到再放置你要怎麼的管理啊這才是重點啊而且對於現有的氏族你既然你已經允許他保有他現有的這些比特權的部分那這些氏族你要怎麼的訓練啊\n你才能 他要不然他只要 他這個東西就是比特選 他站在後他自主把他載在後面 天窗一開他就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車主所以這個是你們要去預防的第三個 中央統籌辦理 提升地方執行人員我說中央統籌喔你不要各地方政府在自己去辦喔因為到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護的專業訓練\n安全捕抓只是其中一項所以對中央同仁你要提升到中央可能是統一辦理全國只要有關相關地方執法的人員他的法規的常識他的專業的訓練通通都要有提高緊急事件的應變能力令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行部長你怎麼看\n這三個建議非常謝謝委員的一些建議您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題而且我認為這邊寫的這個三點主張我認為在不修法的過程中我們也應該要做那特別在那個TNR的部分我們現在已經就是有一個SOP就是說在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區的部分我們在回治的時候就不去往那個地方去做回治這第一個部分第二個部分就是\n具高攻擊性的這些犬隻包括它的雜交犬後代的部分我也認同就是說它跟有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的它的回適的方式是絕對不一樣的所以這個部分我想不修法我們也會來做那第三個部分專業訓練我想我們也可以立即來做就是我要求我們的動保師那你對民間的收容所的部分怎麼處理那第四個部分的民間收容所我們也認同我個人認為認同這個方向但是相對的就是\n可能要有一段的輔導期不然如果強制去納管造成衛生安全的時候沒有一個民間場如果合格的時候那個部長這樣啦我再重提請你們姜文泉姜師長提出來然後您來做核定做審查跟核定再提出一次的中長城的這個計畫而且是針對私人的這個動物保護場\n那你一定會涉及說那個土地不是合法的用地我沒有意見你們看怎麼針對有合法用地沒有合法用地以及不能影響到周邊的居民的民眾的也不能影響到保護動物的這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程的計畫12年過了一四五成\n本席所提的現在還是委員提出來所以這個部分你要不要這個評估一下提出中長期針對私人這個動物流浪犬貓的收容所的部分你要做一個中長程的計畫我想收容所的一個建制不管是公立的或私人的它是一致性但是後續的經費的比例可以有一部分的比例去做部長我現在是以立委的身份來支持你我知道\n我現在是因為你功力受到什麼 已經用了那一筆12年前我建議的部分挪用去做了我現在把你私人的 為什麼我倡議私人你要納入因為他也是你管啊 有些過多的功力的部分是不是有可能也移到民間因為動物不像人啊 我人住在高雄住久了你要叫我搬到台北 我會不適應啊\n但是狗狗貓貓不是說他們沒有這個問題可是當哪一個地方他有容納的空間的時候你可以在私人跟公司之間你可以去怎麼樣的納有一個大水庫的納位我的想法是不是私人就私人公立而是公司是一體的因為我們的量要再增加這種收容的場所\n是有限的 因為他是一個零幣設施嘛你設在哪裡人家就抗議嘛所以你只有就現有的私立的部分有可能可以納管在不影響民眾不影響保育的情況之下我們納管\n環保做好 把水做好 把噪音做好該有的動物福利做好 租出幾個典範那這個是要你現有的預算是不夠的部長 是公司的空間要整合在一塊而不是獨立 你才有辦法去嘗試的把已經過量的公立收容所的部分唱怎麼可能的納到民間來那民間的部分也因為有你們的輔導有愛心必定有專業 我一直強調有這個\n包括他的動物福利的設施我最在意的就是那個污染跟噪音啊那個才是民怨之所在那你要輔導他要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染呢排水系統的排是區域排水是地方政府在管這個污水處理這個部分也是地方政府在管可是你要不要跟他整合在管\n要啊我們任何工廠的設立任何的機關私立的這個民宅的設立他都有法規規定你怎麼去接我地方的區域排水地方的污水系統所以你這個怎麼能夠獨立呢當然你一直都在如果你不處理私人的部分納入你公立的納管當中你永遠都沒有辦法處理解決那個量你永遠都沒有辦法去處理他那個污染跟噪音的問題好 以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.346 --> 00:09.920\n好有請部長\n\n00:17.267 --> 00:44.902\n好部長您在這個報告當中有提到這個行政院的版本但本席認為是不是真的能夠解決相關現實面的成科的問題本席是強烈的質疑第一個你說加強事主的責任你說凍檢員的執法的賦權以及提升動物收容管理好光是動物收容管理我剛才很清楚的聽到幾個提案委員\n\n00:46.323 --> 01:09.434\n不管是郭玉京郭委員或者是民眾黨的版本那你們都說你們是支持納管民間東部收容所的喔可是考量到地方行政能量及無法取得合法用地之狗場退場的困境那也表示說無解啊所以你這個法通過之後你對於整個收容量的增加\n\n01:10.799 --> 01:29.631\n你沒有辦法所以還是一樣啊在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊那這個民間的部門還是很雜亂啊那我為什麼提到這一點你們這個江文權江市長我剛才還到他的位置跟他確認他是非常非常清楚在12年前的時候本席就提出了\n\n01:30.251 --> 01:53.883\n在這個陳寶基主委的時候我希望能夠協助你們我也一直倡議針對民間收容所的部分我如何在它的設施設備硬體當中給予導入因為包括你的污染啊廢水處理的污染啊你的排泄物的污染啊包括你的噪音啊它對於鄰居的部分是不是那個地點適合啊\n\n01:54.883 --> 02:01.427\n然後呢這個包括它我一直希望導入家福系統對於我們人當中的家福系統的一個制度我們有哪些專業的人力有獸醫師的配合有檢查這個你進來當中有一些該有的一個動物福利的相關的人員的\n\n02:16.816 --> 02:39.152\n導入在這個民間的狗場裡面或貓場裡面的去扶植他們的專業人力但是你們沒做你們申請下來之後擅自挪用本席的主張全部投入公立收容所的修建然後對於各個民間場域的專業人力你有愛心不代表有專業啊\n\n02:40.560 --> 02:55.414\n但是你們也沒有投入剛才文泉這個師長是說因為當初爭取的中期計畫行政院是給了六成六成還是可以做事啊你光是經過這12年如果你真的用心輔導私人的這個\n\n02:57.536 --> 03:07.224\n流浪狗的收容的地方你早就可以做出一些神蹟了你們沒有可是即使你到現在你聽到你的這個質詢聽到你的報告我認為還是一樣成科依舊你沒有什麼作為啦然後你說加強事主的責任好那我們來看今天本席我提出來了\n\n03:17.512 --> 03:20.514\n這個我認為TNR我沒有反對TNR聽好我沒有反對TNR我認為農業部帶動的是TNR之後的配套的管理措施是沒有的所以你看這個是\n\n03:47.632 --> 03:52.760\n的選擇的襲擊巢穴這是學者專家他在保護他又有那個監視系統怎麼發現到怎麼會是出現流浪狗來把他襲擊的所以這是學者專家有在保護的敏感區域其實是有的\n\n04:02.876 --> 04:31.105\n所以這個部分你們是可以介入做相關的加強巡檢所以流浪狗的管流浪犬的管理證明你們如果採用TNR補妝絕育回治意圖是要降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量但是我們變成流浪犬隻卻成群結隊的攻擊其他的民眾或保育類的動物那我們來看這則新聞比特犬在4年前你們就把比特犬列為指定禁止飼養的數目\n\n04:32.245 --> 04:36.667\n輸入的動物飼養或輸入的動物這個政策好不好也好啊但PETA有沒有沒有啊所以你們對於現有持有比特犬的飼主你要求他說你要來登記那真的登記了嗎好那反而沒有登記的這個政策一出之後變成什麼大量的比特犬大量的棄養\n\n04:58.577 --> 05:14.408\n所以他可能棄養之後他自己再跟其他的物種衍生了一些生育的問題所以那另外的流氧這個比特捲的飼主那你有沒有教育他也沒有啊所以光是你這個版本說加強飼主責任你們院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎我想可能等期點出來看你們會不會去做了好再來我們第一線的人員缺乏動物處置的專業我不講動檢員\n\n05:28.877 --> 05:35.698\n我不講洞檢委我就先講這個我不要講到那麼高層次你看這個是今年的判決桃園農業局的濟公他遭判八個月但是他大概是在前兩年的時候發生的就是東非的廢廢遭獵人獵殺六福村的一頭東非的廢廢遭圍捕時重擔身亡對獵人發出指令的是桃園市的農業局的前濟公\n\n05:58.282 --> 06:21.776\n但是獵人是沒事的技工是有事的我認為為這位技工抱不平的地方是他找誰他找獵人獵人的專長是什麼他就是在獵殺動物但是你說他不找獵人我們有專業的人力是安全捕抓的動物捕抓員嗎\n\n06:23.257 --> 06:40.365\n安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎沒有所以你叫公務人員他真的要去抓的時候他要叫誰沒有專業的安全捕捉的動物人員他請了獵人獵人不是動物不是安全捕捉的專業他們是獵殺動物的專業\n\n06:43.226 --> 06:50.528\n所以這個是很冤枉的一件事所以如果你的本你的這個版本出來之後凍檢員的執法賦能我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況所以我才說只是安全普照的專業人員還不到凍檢員的層次喔光是這樣你讓我基層的凍保人員凍保的公務人員要下指令的時候他要找誰\n\n07:09.121 --> 07:24.318\n連安全補助都沒有所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻的政策的時候忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響而地方農政這是你們中央地方農政雖然有動保處但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護的專業訓練沒有專業的\n\n07:28.802 --> 07:50.267\n裝置器具也沒有相關的配套反映出中央地方政府對動保議題是什麼頭痛醫頭腳透音腳啊其實你的版本出來還是這樣啊所以本席有幾個建議啊第一個檢討現行的TNR政策禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區譬如石斧啦草蕭啊等保育動物\n\n07:51.727 --> 08:10.660\n物種啊這個出沒的區域而且這些區域要強化專能巡檢針對這個動物流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突你要制定前期的預防跟整合管理好真的聽啊第二對於遭棄養且居高攻擊性的流浪物種尤其還要寒喔他去混種衍生的犬隻喔\n\n08:14.783 --> 08:41.352\n這個東西你們怎麼去找出來所以制定於有別TNR的具體措施也就這些攻擊的物種你不能再實行TNR了把它掘渣之後再放置棄養的話我抓到再放置你要怎麼的管理啊這才是重點啊而且對於現有的氏族你既然你已經允許他保有他現有的這些比特權的部分那這些氏族你要怎麼的訓練啊\n\n08:43.132 --> 09:09.579\n你才能他要不然他只要他這個東西就是比特選他站在後他自主把他載在後面天窗一開他就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車主所以這個是你們要去預防的第三個中央統籌辦理提升地方執行人員我說中央統籌喔你不要各地方政府在自己去辦喔因為到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護的專業訓練\n\n09:12.025 --> 09:34.002\n安全捕抓只是其中一項所以對中央同仁你要提升到中央可能是統一辦理全國只要有關相關地方執法的人員他的法規的常識他的專業的訓練通通都要有提高緊急事件的應變能力令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行部長你怎麼看\n\n09:35.271 --> 10:01.414\n這三個建議非常謝謝委員的一些建議您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題而且我認為這邊寫的這個三點主張我認為在不修法的過程中我們也應該要做那特別在那個TNR的部分我們現在已經就是有一個SOP就是說在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區的部分我們在回治的時候就不去往那個地方去做回治這第一個部分第二個部分就是\n\n10:01.934 --> 10:30.121\n具高攻擊性的這些犬隻包括它的雜交犬後代的部分我也認同就是說它跟有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的它的回適的方式是絕對不一樣的所以這個部分我想不修法我們也會來做那第三個部分專業訓練我想我們也可以立即來做就是我要求我們的動保師那你對民間的收容所的部分怎麼處理那第四個部分的民間收容所我們也認同我個人認為認同這個方向但是相對的就是\n\n10:31.221 --> 10:40.647\n可能要有一段的輔導期不然如果強制去納管造成衛生安全的時候沒有一個民間場如果合格的時候那個部長這樣啦我再重提請你們姜文泉姜師長提出來然後您來做核定做審查跟核定再提出一次的中長城的這個計畫而且是針對私人的這個動物保護場\n\n10:59.319 --> 11:17.136\n那你一定會涉及說那個土地不是合法的用地我沒有意見你們看怎麼針對有合法用地沒有合法用地以及不能影響到周邊的居民的民眾的也不能影響到保護動物的這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程的計畫12年過了一四五成\n\n11:20.939 --> 11:48.090\n本席所提的現在還是委員提出來所以這個部分你要不要這個評估一下提出中長期針對私人這個動物流浪犬貓的收容所的部分你要做一個中長程的計畫我想收容所的一個建制不管是公立的或私人的它是一致性但是後續的經費的比例可以有一部分的比例去做部長我現在是以立委的身份來支持你我知道\n\n11:48.430 --> 12:10.681\n我現在是因為你功力受到什麼已經用了那一筆12年前我建議的部分挪用去做了我現在把你私人的為什麼我倡議私人你要納入因為他也是你管啊有些過多的功力的部分是不是有可能也移到民間因為動物不像人啊我人住在高雄住久了你要叫我搬到台北我會不適應啊\n\n12:12.122 --> 12:30.158\n但是狗狗貓貓不是說他們沒有這個問題可是當哪一個地方他有容納的空間的時候你可以在私人跟公司之間你可以去怎麼樣的納有一個大水庫的納位我的想法是不是私人就私人公立而是公司是一體的因為我們的量要再增加這種收容的場所\n\n12:35.663 --> 12:46.911\n是有限的因為他是一個零幣設施嘛你設在哪裡人家就抗議嘛所以你只有就現有的私立的部分有可能可以納管在不影響民眾不影響保育的情況之下我們納管\n\n12:51.614 --> 13:17.102\n環保做好把水做好把噪音做好該有的動物福利做好租出幾個典範那這個是要你現有的預算是不夠的部長是公司的空間要整合在一塊而不是獨立你才有辦法去嘗試的把已經過量的公立收容所的部分唱怎麼可能的納到民間來那民間的部分也因為有你們的輔導有愛心必定有專業我一直強調有這個\n\n13:21.283 --> 13:41.488\n包括他的動物福利的設施我最在意的就是那個污染跟噪音啊那個才是民怨之所在那你要輔導他要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染呢排水系統的排是區域排水是地方政府在管這個污水處理這個部分也是地方政府在管可是你要不要跟他整合在管\n\n13:42.348 --> 14:05.655\n要啊我們任何工廠的設立任何的機關私立的這個民宅的設立他都有法規規定你怎麼去接我地方的區域排水地方的污水系統所以你這個怎麼能夠獨立呢當然你一直都在如果你不處理私人的部分納入你公立的納管當中你永遠都沒有辦法處理解決那個量你永遠都沒有辦法去處理他那個污染跟噪音的問題好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.346,"end":9.92,"text":"好有請部長"},{"start":17.267,"end":44.902,"text":"好 部長您在這個報告當中有提到這個行政院的版本但本席認為是不是真的能夠解決相關現實面的成科的問題本席是強烈的質疑第一個你說加強事主的責任你說凍檢員的執法的賦權以及提升動物收容管理好 光是動物收容管理我剛才很清楚的聽到幾個提案委員"},{"start":46.323,"end":69.434,"text":"不管是郭玉京 郭委員 或者是民眾黨的版本那你們都說你們是支持納管民間東部收容所的喔可是考量到地方行政能量及無法取得合法用地之狗場退場的困境那也表示說無解啊所以你這個法通過之後你對於整個收容量的增加"},{"start":70.799,"end":89.631,"text":"你沒有辦法所以還是一樣啊在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊那這個民間的部門還是很雜亂啊那我為什麼提到這一點你們這個江文權江市長我剛才還到他的位置跟他確認他是非常非常清楚在12年前的時候本席就提出了"},{"start":90.251,"end":113.883,"text":"在這個陳寶基主委的時候 我希望能夠協助你們 我也一直倡議針對民間收容所的部分 我如何在它的設施 設備 硬體當中給予導入因為包括你的污染啊 廢水處理的污染啊 你的排泄物的污染啊包括你的噪音啊 它對於鄰居的部分 是不是那個地點適合啊"},{"start":114.883,"end":121.427,"text":"然後呢 這個包括它 我一直希望導入家福系統對於我們人當中的家福系統的一個制度我們有哪些專業的人力有獸醫師的配合 有檢查 這個你進來當中有一些該有的一個動物福利的相關的人員的"},{"start":136.816,"end":159.152,"text":"導入在這個民間的狗場裡面或貓場裡面的去扶植他們的專業人力但是你們沒做你們申請下來之後擅自挪用本席的主張全部投入公立收容所的修建然後對於各個民間場域的專業人力你有愛心不代表有專業啊"},{"start":160.56,"end":175.414,"text":"但是你們也沒有投入剛才文泉這個師長是說因為當初爭取的中期計畫行政院是給了六成 六成還是可以做事啊你光是經過這12年如果你真的用心輔導私人的這個"},{"start":177.536,"end":187.224,"text":"流浪狗的收容的地方 你早就可以做出一些神蹟了你們沒有 可是即使你到現在你聽到你的這個質詢 聽到你的報告我認為還是一樣 成科依舊你沒有什麼作為啦 然後你說加強事主的責任好 那我們來看今天本席 我提出來了"},{"start":197.512,"end":200.514,"text":"這個我認為TNR我沒有反對TNR聽好我沒有反對TNR我認為農業部帶動的是TNR之後的配套的管理措施是沒有的所以你看這個是"},{"start":227.632,"end":232.76,"text":"的選擇的襲擊巢穴這是學者專家他在保護他又有那個監視系統怎麼發現到怎麼會是出現流浪狗來把他襲擊的所以這是學者專家有在保護的敏感區域其實是有的"},{"start":242.876,"end":271.105,"text":"所以這個部分你們是可以介入做相關的加強巡檢所以流浪狗的管流浪犬的管理證明你們如果採用TNR補妝絕育回治意圖是要降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量但是我們變成流浪犬隻卻成群結隊的攻擊其他的民眾或保育類的動物那我們來看這則新聞比特犬在4年前你們就把比特犬列為指定禁止飼養的數目"},{"start":272.245,"end":276.667,"text":"輸入的動物 飼養或輸入的動物這個政策好不好也好啊但PETA有沒有 沒有啊所以你們對於現有持有比特犬的飼主你要求他說你要來登記那真的登記了嗎好 那反而沒有登記的這個政策一出之後變成什麼大量的比特犬大量的棄養"},{"start":298.577,"end":314.408,"text":"所以他可能棄養之後他自己再跟其他的物種衍生了一些生育的問題所以那另外的流氧這個比特捲的飼主那你有沒有教育他也沒有啊所以光是你這個版本說加強飼主責任你們院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎我想可能等期點出來看你們會不會去做了好再來我們第一線的人員缺乏動物處置的專業我不講動檢員"},{"start":328.877,"end":335.698,"text":"我不講洞檢委我就先講這個我不要講到那麼高層次你看這個是今年的判決桃園農業局的濟公他遭判八個月但是他大概是在前兩年的時候發生的就是東非的廢廢遭獵人獵殺六福村的一頭東非的廢廢遭圍捕時重擔身亡對獵人發出指令的是桃園市的農業局的前濟公"},{"start":358.282,"end":381.776,"text":"但是獵人是沒事的 技工是有事的我認為為這位技工抱不平的地方是 他找誰 他找獵人獵人的專長是什麼 他就是在獵殺動物但是你說他不找獵人 我們有專業的人力是安全捕抓的動物捕抓員嗎"},{"start":383.257,"end":400.365,"text":"安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎沒有所以你叫公務人員他真的要去抓的時候他要叫誰沒有專業的安全捕捉的動物人員他請了獵人獵人不是動物不是安全捕捉的專業他們是獵殺動物的專業"},{"start":403.226,"end":410.528,"text":"所以這個是很冤枉的一件事 所以如果你的本你的這個版本出來之後 凍檢員的執法賦能我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況所以我才說 只是安全普照的專業人員還不到凍檢員的層次喔光是這樣 你讓我基層的凍保人員凍保的公務人員要下指令的時候 他要找誰"},{"start":429.121,"end":444.318,"text":"連安全補助都沒有所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻的政策的時候忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響而地方農政 這是你們中央地方農政雖然有動保處但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護的專業訓練沒有專業的"},{"start":448.802,"end":470.267,"text":"裝置器具也沒有相關的配套反映出中央地方政府對動保議題是什麼頭痛醫頭腳透音腳啊其實你的版本出來還是這樣啊所以本席有幾個建議啊第一個檢討現行的TNR政策禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區譬如石斧啦草蕭啊等保育動物"},{"start":471.727,"end":490.66,"text":"物種啊這個出沒的區域而且這些區域要強化專能巡檢針對這個動物流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突你要制定前期的預防跟整合管理好真的聽啊第二對於遭棄養且居高攻擊性的流浪物種尤其還要寒喔他去混種衍生的犬隻喔"},{"start":494.783,"end":521.352,"text":"這個東西你們怎麼去找出來所以制定於有別TNR的具體措施也就這些攻擊的物種你不能再實行TNR了把它掘渣之後再放置棄養的話我抓到再放置你要怎麼的管理啊這才是重點啊而且對於現有的氏族你既然你已經允許他保有他現有的這些比特權的部分那這些氏族你要怎麼的訓練啊"},{"start":523.132,"end":549.579,"text":"你才能 他要不然他只要 他這個東西就是比特選 他站在後他自主把他載在後面 天窗一開他就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車主所以這個是你們要去預防的第三個 中央統籌辦理 提升地方執行人員我說中央統籌喔你不要各地方政府在自己去辦喔因為到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護的專業訓練"},{"start":552.025,"end":574.002,"text":"安全捕抓只是其中一項所以對中央同仁你要提升到中央可能是統一辦理全國只要有關相關地方執法的人員他的法規的常識他的專業的訓練通通都要有提高緊急事件的應變能力令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行部長你怎麼看"},{"start":575.271,"end":601.414,"text":"這三個建議非常謝謝委員的一些建議您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題而且我認為這邊寫的這個三點主張我認為在不修法的過程中我們也應該要做那特別在那個TNR的部分我們現在已經就是有一個SOP就是說在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區的部分我們在回治的時候就不去往那個地方去做回治這第一個部分第二個部分就是"},{"start":601.934,"end":630.121,"text":"具高攻擊性的這些犬隻包括它的雜交犬後代的部分我也認同就是說它跟有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的它的回適的方式是絕對不一樣的所以這個部分我想不修法我們也會來做那第三個部分專業訓練我想我們也可以立即來做就是我要求我們的動保師那你對民間的收容所的部分怎麼處理那第四個部分的民間收容所我們也認同我個人認為認同這個方向但是相對的就是"},{"start":631.221,"end":640.647,"text":"可能要有一段的輔導期不然如果強制去納管造成衛生安全的時候沒有一個民間場如果合格的時候那個部長這樣啦我再重提請你們姜文泉姜師長提出來然後您來做核定做審查跟核定再提出一次的中長城的這個計畫而且是針對私人的這個動物保護場"},{"start":659.319,"end":677.136,"text":"那你一定會涉及說那個土地不是合法的用地我沒有意見你們看怎麼針對有合法用地沒有合法用地以及不能影響到周邊的居民的民眾的也不能影響到保護動物的這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程的計畫12年過了一四五成"},{"start":680.939,"end":708.09,"text":"本席所提的現在還是委員提出來所以這個部分你要不要這個評估一下提出中長期針對私人這個動物流浪犬貓的收容所的部分你要做一個中長程的計畫我想收容所的一個建制不管是公立的或私人的它是一致性但是後續的經費的比例可以有一部分的比例去做部長我現在是以立委的身份來支持你我知道"},{"start":708.43,"end":730.681,"text":"我現在是因為你功力受到什麼 已經用了那一筆12年前我建議的部分挪用去做了我現在把你私人的 為什麼我倡議私人你要納入因為他也是你管啊 有些過多的功力的部分是不是有可能也移到民間因為動物不像人啊 我人住在高雄住久了你要叫我搬到台北 我會不適應啊"},{"start":732.122,"end":750.158,"text":"但是狗狗貓貓不是說他們沒有這個問題可是當哪一個地方他有容納的空間的時候你可以在私人跟公司之間你可以去怎麼樣的納有一個大水庫的納位我的想法是不是私人就私人公立而是公司是一體的因為我們的量要再增加這種收容的場所"},{"start":755.663,"end":766.911,"text":"是有限的 因為他是一個零幣設施嘛你設在哪裡人家就抗議嘛所以你只有就現有的私立的部分有可能可以納管在不影響民眾不影響保育的情況之下我們納管"},{"start":771.614,"end":797.102,"text":"環保做好 把水做好 把噪音做好該有的動物福利做好 租出幾個典範那這個是要你現有的預算是不夠的部長 是公司的空間要整合在一塊而不是獨立 你才有辦法去嘗試的把已經過量的公立收容所的部分唱怎麼可能的納到民間來那民間的部分也因為有你們的輔導有愛心必定有專業 我一直強調有這個"},{"start":801.283,"end":821.488,"text":"包括他的動物福利的設施我最在意的就是那個污染跟噪音啊那個才是民怨之所在那你要輔導他要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染呢排水系統的排是區域排水是地方政府在管這個污水處理這個部分也是地方政府在管可是你要不要跟他整合在管"},{"start":822.348,"end":845.655,"text":"要啊我們任何工廠的設立任何的機關私立的這個民宅的設立他都有法規規定你怎麼去接我地方的區域排水地方的污水系統所以你這個怎麼能夠獨立呢當然你一直都在如果你不處理私人的部分納入你公立的納管當中你永遠都沒有辦法處理解決那個量你永遠都沒有辦法去處理他那個污染跟噪音的問題好 以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時43分）有請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，您在報告當中有提到行政院的版本，但本席認為是不是真的能夠解決相關現實面沉痾的問題，本席是強烈的質疑。第一個，你說加強飼主的責任，你說動檢員執法賦權，以及提升動物收容管理。光是動物收容管理，我剛才很清楚地聽到幾個提案委員，不管是郭昱晴郭委員，或者是民眾黨的版本，你們都說你們支持納管民間動物收容所，可是考量到地方行政能量及無法取得合法用地之狗場退場的困境，那也表示無解啊！所以這個法通過之後，對於整個收容量的增加並沒有辦法，所以還是一樣啊！在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊！民間的部分還是很雜亂啊！我為什麼提到這一點？我剛才還到江文全江司長的位子跟他確認，他是非常非常清楚，在12年前的時候本席就提出了，在陳保基主委的時候我就希望能夠協助你們，我也一直倡議，針對民間收容所的部分，如何在它的設施、設備、硬體當中給予導入，因為包括廢水處理的污染以及排泄物的污染，包括噪音，對於鄰居那個地點是不是適合，然後我一直希望導入家扶系統制度，將獸醫師、檢查、動物福利等相關專業人員導入民間狗場或貓場，去扶植他們的專業人力。但是你們沒做，你們申請下來之後，擅自挪用本席的主張，全部投入公立收容所的的修建，然後對於各民間場域的專業人力，有愛心不代表有專業啊！但是你們也沒有投入。剛才文全司長是說，因為當初爭取的中期計畫，行政院只給了六成，六成還是可以做事啊！光是經過這12年，如果真的用心輔導私人的流浪狗收容處所，早就可以做出一些成績了，但你們沒有！即使到現在聽到你的報告，我認為還是一樣，沉痾依舊！你沒有什麼作為！","然後你說加強飼主的責任，好，那我們來看今天本席提出來了，聽好，我沒有反對TNR，我認為農業部怠惰的是TNR之後的配套管理措施是沒有的！這是今年的新聞，草鴞屬於保育類第一級瀕臨絕種野生動物，全臺數量本來就稀少，它是在草地築巢而得名，卻多次遭到流浪犬隻襲擊巢穴，這是學者專家在保護又有監視系統的區域，發現流浪狗襲擊的狀況，這是在學者專家保護的敏感區域發現的，這個部分你們其實可以介入做相關的加強巡檢。對於流浪犬的管理，你們採用TNR──捕捉、絕育、回置，意圖降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量，但是卻變成流浪犬隻成群結隊攻擊其他民眾或保育類動物。","我們再來看這則新聞──比特犬，4年前你們就已經把比特犬列為「指定禁止飼養或輸入之動物」，這個政策好不好？也好啊！但配套有沒有？沒有啊！對於現在持有比特犬的飼主，你們要求他們要來登記，但真的登記了嗎？反而沒有登記的，結果這個政策一出來之後，變成大量比特犬被棄養，牠們被棄養之後，又跟其他物種衍生了一些生育的問題。另外，對於留養比特犬的飼主，你們有沒有教育他們？也沒有啊！所以光是這個版本說要加強飼主責任，院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎？本席就點出來看你們會不會去做啦！","再來，第一線人員缺乏動物處置的專業。我不講動檢員我不要講到那麼高層次，你看這個是今年的判決，桃園農業局的技工遭判8個月，這大概是在前兩年的時候發生的，就是六福村一頭東非的狒狒遭獵人獵殺，被圍捕時中彈身亡，對獵人發出指令的是桃園市農業局前技工，最後獵人是沒事的，但技工是有事的。我為這位技工抱不平的地方是，他找誰？他找獵人，獵人的專長是什麼？他就是在獵殺動物，但是你說不找獵人，那我們有專業人力是安全捕捉的動物捕捉員嗎？安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎？沒有！那麼公務人員真的要去抓的時候，他要叫誰？沒有專業安全捕捉動物的相關人員，所以請了獵人，但獵人不是安全捕捉的專業，他們是獵殺動物的專業！所以這個是很冤枉的一件事。如果你這個版本出來之後，動檢員的執法賦能，我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況？所以我才說只是安全捕捉的專業人員，還不到動檢員的層次喔！光是這樣，你讓基層動保的公務人員要下指令的時候，他要找誰？連安全捕捉都沒有！","所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻政策的時候，忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響，這是中央，而地方農政雖然有動保處，但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護專業訓練，沒有專業的裝置、器具，也沒有相關的配套，反映出中央、地方政府對動保議題是頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，即使你的版本出來還是這樣啊！","所以本席有幾個建議，第一個，檢討現行TNR政策，禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區，譬如石虎、草鴞等保育類物種出沒的區域，而且這些區域要強化專人巡檢，針對流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突，要制定前期的預防跟整合管理，這是針對TNR的部分。第二，對於遭棄養且具高攻擊性的流浪犬種（含其混種衍生犬隻），這個東西你們怎麼去找出來？所以要制定有別於現行TNR政策的具體措施，也就是對於這些攻擊的物種，你不能再實行TNR，把牠結紮之後再放置，棄養的話，抓到再放置，你要怎麼管理？這才是重點啦！而且對於現有的飼主，既然已經允許其保有現有的比特犬，對於這些飼主要怎麼訓練？要不然飼主把比特犬載在後面，天窗一開，牠就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車族！所以這個是你們要去預防的。第三個，中央統籌辦理提升地方執行人員。我說中央統籌喔，不要各地方政府再自行去辦，到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護專業訓練，安全捕捉只是其中一項，所以要提升到中央層次，統一辦理全國的部分，只要是相關地方執法人員的法規常識、專業訓練，統統都要有，提高緊急事件應變能力，令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行。部長，你怎麼看這3個建議？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的建議，您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題，而且委員寫的3點主張，我認為在不修法的情況下，我們也應該要做，特別在TNR的部分現在已經有一個SOP，就是在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區，我們在回置的時候就不往那些地方去做回置，這第一個部分；第二個部分，具高攻擊性的犬隻，包括牠的雜交犬後代的部分，我也認同有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的，牠的回置方式是絕對不一樣，所以這個部分就算不修法我們也會來做；第三個部分，我們也可以立即來做專業訓練，我要求我們的動保師……"],["林委員岱樺：那你對民間收容所的部分怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：對，第四個部分民間收容所，我個人認同這個方向，但是相對的可能要有一段輔導期，不然如果強制去納管，造成衛生安全的時候，如果沒有一個民間場有合格的時候……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我再重提，請你們江文全司長提出來，然後您來做審查跟核定，再提出一致的中長程計畫，而且只針對私人的動物保護場，那你一定會涉及到土地不是合法的用地，我沒有意見，你們怎麼針對有合法用地、沒有合法用地，以及不能影響到周邊的民眾，也不能影響到保護動物，這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程計畫，12年過了一事無成，本席之前所提的，現在還是委員提出來，所以這個部分你要不要評估一下？提出針對私人動物之流浪犬、貓收容所的部分，你要做一個中長程的計畫。"],["陳部長駿季：我想收容所的建置，不管是公立的或私人的，它是一致性，但是後續經費的比例，可以有一部分的比例去做切割。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我現在是以立委的身分來支持你。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["林委員岱樺：我現在是因為你已經把我12年前建議那一筆的部分挪用去做了公立收容所，為什麼我倡議私人你要納入？因為它也是你管的，有些過多的公立收容所，是不是有可能也移到民間？因為動物不像人，我人在高雄住久了，你要叫我搬到臺北，我會不適應。狗、貓不是說牠們沒有這個問題，可是當哪一個地方有容納空間的時候，你可以在公私之間怎麼樣規劃一個大水庫，我的想法不是私人就私人、公立就公立，而是公私是一體的，因為我們的量要再增加，而收容場所是有限的，因為它是鄰避設施，你設在哪裡，人家就抗議，所以你只能就現有私立的部分，有可能可以納管，在不影響民眾、不影響保育的情況之下，我們來納管，把環保做好、把水源管理做好、把噪音控管做好、該有的動物福利做好，做出幾個典範，那你現有的預算這個是不夠的。"],["陳部長駿季：同意。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，是公私的空間要整合在一塊，而不是獨立，你才有辦法去嘗試把已經過量的公立收容所看可能怎麼樣納到民間來，民間的部分，也因為有你們的輔導，我一直強調有愛心必定有專業，包括動物福利的設施，我最在意就是污染跟噪音，才是民怨之所在，你要輔導民間的部分，要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染，區域的排水系統是地方政府在管，污水處理也是地方政府在管，但是你要不要跟他整合在一塊？要啊！我們任何工廠的設立、任何民宅的設立，都有法規規定要怎麼去接地方區域的污水排放系統，所以這個怎麼能夠獨立呢？當然，如果你不處理私人的部分，將它一併納入公立的管理當中，你永遠都沒有辦法處理來解決那個量、你永遠都沒有辦法去處理污染跟噪音的問題。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請鄭天財委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}}