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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 632.948, \"end\": 634.349, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 634.349, \"end\": 634.769, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 634.769, \"end\": 635.03, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 635.03, \"end\": 635.19, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 635.19, \"end\": 635.77, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 635.77, \"end\": 635.95, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"燕\", \"start\": 635.95, \"end\": 636.21, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"秀\", \"start\": 636.21, \"end\": 636.43, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 636.43, \"end\": 636.45, \"score\": 0.312}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,694 --> 00:00:03,091\n主席有請彭主委好請彭主委\n\n2\n00:00:06,809 --> 00:00:34,287\n委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的\n\n3\n00:00:35,368 --> 00:01:00,064\n那主委,依照你是主委你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直截了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它只是一份而形成一種社會亂源\n\n4\n00:01:01,445 --> 00:01:07,726\n可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊\n\n5\n00:01:09,037 --> 00:01:32,507\n不是,我現在的態度是需要,因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在金管委員長,我要解決這個問題對,你要解決問題,你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的裁定嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:34,415 --> 00:01:51,061\n其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低它把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到它的本質去就是說合以\n\n7\n00:01:52,301 --> 00:02:09,247\n對你用本質意圖在做一些排除啦沒有錯你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎\n\n8\n00:02:10,632 --> 00:02:38,921\n他整個把他衝擊掉以後你再去修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你再重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張\n\n9\n00:02:39,401 --> 00:02:50,253\n對啦但是就比例上來說啦就否定來說還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候總共高達123件那2024年的時候每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢現在是5萬件在做成長\n\n10\n00:03:00,163 --> 00:03:17,352\n就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對\n\n11\n00:03:21,534 --> 00:03:26,757\n那第二來你有沒有真正統計過整個呢123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價值多少你們有沒有做過統計\n\n12\n00:03:37,731 --> 00:04:00,174\n我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛尤其是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對\n\n13\n00:04:01,335 --> 00:04:24,810\n我覺得這個是很重要的否則的話你做了一個裁決不符社會成本動用那麼多人你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成剩下三成也很多耶\n\n14\n00:04:26,004 --> 00:04:48,045\n不是嗎是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多耶而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行金融機構保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人耶10%才是自然人而已耶\n\n15\n00:04:49,953 --> 00:05:10,019\n這還什麼公平正義可言嗎主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了\n\n16\n00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:24,535\n幫到什麼程度主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度對不對\n\n17\n00:05:28,984 --> 00:05:49,222\n我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有\n\n18\n00:05:50,023 --> 00:06:09,871\n大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的產值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中的7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單要7萬多塊\n\n19\n00:06:14,053 --> 00:06:34,782\n大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔\n\n20\n00:06:36,282 --> 00:06:53,541\n這種社會保險性質算蠻高當初政府算是鼓勵的這綜合保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單只要是50萬以下應該免執行包括這些都應該思考一下主委你認為是不是比較合理一些\n\n21\n00:06:54,242 --> 00:07:14,110\n跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話,我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對\n\n22\n00:07:14,990 --> 00:07:34,511\n一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個\n\n23\n00:07:37,033 --> 00:07:57,142\n週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險對重點是本質啊對就是它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是\n\n24\n00:07:59,324 --> 00:08:12,699\n對然後接下來那個主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢\n\n25\n00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:38,786\n就是他在海外有一些維京群島、開曼群島等等來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後出貨然後來割韭菜主委你有沒有看到這個消息\n\n26\n00:08:40,937 --> 00:09:04,334\n這個部分的話我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來旗局局長來局長請張局長委員這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32%的百分比\n\n27\n00:09:07,901 --> 00:09:35,613\n我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症\n\n28\n00:09:37,034 --> 00:09:55,646\n所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還是說這些內容\n\n29\n00:09:58,748 --> 00:10:19,802\n剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是\n\n30\n00:10:22,062 --> 00:10:36,450\n可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n694\t3091\t主席有請彭主委好 請彭主委\n6809\t34287\t委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的\n35368\t60064\t那主委,依照你是主委你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直截了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它只是一份而形成一種社會亂源\n61445\t67726\t可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊\n69037\t92507\t不是,我現在的態度是需要,因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在金管委員長,我要解決這個問題對,你要解決問題,你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的裁定嗎?\n94415\t111061\t其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低它把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到它的本質去就是說合以\n112301\t129247\t對 你用本質意圖在做一些排除啦沒有錯 你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎\n130632\t158921\t他整個把他衝擊掉以後你再去修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你再重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張\n159401\t170253\t對啦 但是就比例上來說啦就否定來說還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了 但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候總共高達123件那2024年的時候每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢 現在是5萬件在做成長\n180163\t197352\t就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對\n201534\t206757\t那第二來 你有沒有真正統計過整個呢 123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價值多少你們有沒有做過統計\n217731\t240174\t我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛尤其是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對\n241335\t264810\t我覺得這個是很重要的 否則的話你做了一個裁決不符社會成本 動用那麼多人 你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官 夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了 其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成 剩下三成也很多耶\n266004\t288045\t不是嗎 是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多耶而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行 金融機構 保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人耶10%才是自然人而已耶\n289953\t310019\t這還什麼公平正義可言嗎 主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了\n311596\t324535\t幫到什麼程度 主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請 叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度 對不對\n328984\t349222\t我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有\n350023\t369871\t大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的產值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中的7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單要7萬多塊\n374053\t394782\t大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔\n396282\t413541\t這種社會保險性質算蠻高 當初政府算是鼓勵的這綜合保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單只要是50萬以下應該免執行包括這些都應該思考一下 主委你認為是不是比較合理一些\n414242\t434110\t跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話,我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對\n434990\t454511\t一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個\n457033\t477142\t週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險對 重點是本質啊對 就是它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是\n479324\t492699\t對 然後接下來那個主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢\n493720\t518786\t就是他在海外有一些維京群島、開曼群島等等來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後出貨然後來割韭菜主委你有沒有看到這個消息\n520937\t544334\t這個部分的話 我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來 旗局局長來 局長請張局長委員 這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32%的百分比\n547901\t575613\t我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有 主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症\n577034\t595646\t所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還是說這些內容\n598748\t619802\t剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是\n622062\t636450\t可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢\n","txt":"主席有請彭主委好 請彭主委\n委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的\n那主委,依照你是主委你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直截了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它只是一份而形成一種社會亂源\n可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊\n不是,我現在的態度是需要,因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在金管委員長,我要解決這個問題對,你要解決問題,你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的裁定嗎?\n其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低它把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到它的本質去就是說合以\n對 你用本質意圖在做一些排除啦沒有錯 你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎\n他整個把他衝擊掉以後你再去修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你再重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張\n對啦 但是就比例上來說啦就否定來說還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了 但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候總共高達123件那2024年的時候每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢 現在是5萬件在做成長\n就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對\n那第二來 你有沒有真正統計過整個呢 123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價值多少你們有沒有做過統計\n我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛尤其是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對\n我覺得這個是很重要的 否則的話你做了一個裁決不符社會成本 動用那麼多人 你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官 夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了 其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成 剩下三成也很多耶\n不是嗎 是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多耶而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行 金融機構 保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人耶10%才是自然人而已耶\n這還什麼公平正義可言嗎 主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了\n幫到什麼程度 主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請 叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度 對不對\n我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有\n大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的產值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中的7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單要7萬多塊\n大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔\n這種社會保險性質算蠻高 當初政府算是鼓勵的這綜合保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單只要是50萬以下應該免執行包括這些都應該思考一下 主委你認為是不是比較合理一些\n跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話,我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對\n一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個\n週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險對 重點是本質啊對 就是它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是\n對 然後接下來那個主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢\n就是他在海外有一些維京群島、開曼群島等等來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後出貨然後來割韭菜主委你有沒有看到這個消息\n這個部分的話 我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來 旗局局長來 局長請張局長委員 這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32%的百分比\n我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有 主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症\n所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還是說這些內容\n剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是\n可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.694 --> 00:03.091\n主席有請彭主委好請彭主委\n\n00:06.809 --> 00:34.287\n委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的\n\n00:35.368 --> 01:00.064\n那主委,依照你是主委你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直截了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它只是一份而形成一種社會亂源\n\n01:01.445 --> 01:07.726\n可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊\n\n01:09.037 --> 01:32.507\n不是,我現在的態度是需要,因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在金管委員長,我要解決這個問題對,你要解決問題,你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的裁定嗎?\n\n01:34.415 --> 01:51.061\n其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低它把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到它的本質去就是說合以\n\n01:52.301 --> 02:09.247\n對你用本質意圖在做一些排除啦沒有錯你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎\n\n02:10.632 --> 02:38.921\n他整個把他衝擊掉以後你再去修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你再重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張\n\n02:39.401 --> 02:50.253\n對啦但是就比例上來說啦就否定來說還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候總共高達123件那2024年的時候每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢現在是5萬件在做成長\n\n03:00.163 --> 03:17.352\n就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對\n\n03:21.534 --> 03:26.757\n那第二來你有沒有真正統計過整個呢123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價值多少你們有沒有做過統計\n\n03:37.731 --> 04:00.174\n我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛尤其是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對\n\n04:01.335 --> 04:24.810\n我覺得這個是很重要的否則的話你做了一個裁決不符社會成本動用那麼多人你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成剩下三成也很多耶\n\n04:26.004 --> 04:48.045\n不是嗎是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多耶而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行金融機構保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人耶10%才是自然人而已耶\n\n04:49.953 --> 05:10.019\n這還什麼公平正義可言嗎主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了\n\n05:11.596 --> 05:24.535\n幫到什麼程度主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度對不對\n\n05:28.984 --> 05:49.222\n我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有\n\n05:50.023 --> 06:09.871\n大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的產值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中的7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單要7萬多塊\n\n06:14.053 --> 06:34.782\n大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔\n\n06:36.282 --> 06:53.541\n這種社會保險性質算蠻高當初政府算是鼓勵的這綜合保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單只要是50萬以下應該免執行包括這些都應該思考一下主委你認為是不是比較合理一些\n\n06:54.242 --> 07:14.110\n跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話,我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對\n\n07:14.990 --> 07:34.511\n一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個\n\n07:37.033 --> 07:57.142\n週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險對重點是本質啊對就是它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是\n\n07:59.324 --> 08:12.699\n對然後接下來那個主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢\n\n08:13.720 --> 08:38.786\n就是他在海外有一些維京群島、開曼群島等等來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後出貨然後來割韭菜主委你有沒有看到這個消息\n\n08:40.937 --> 09:04.334\n這個部分的話我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來旗局局長來局長請張局長委員這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32%的百分比\n\n09:07.901 --> 09:35.613\n我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症\n\n09:37.034 --> 09:55.646\n所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還是說這些內容\n\n09:58.748 --> 10:19.802\n剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是\n\n10:22.062 --> 10:36.450\n可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.694,"end":3.091,"text":"主席有請彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":6.809,"end":34.287,"text":"委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的"},{"start":35.368,"end":60.064,"text":"那主委,依照你是主委你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直截了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它只是一份而形成一種社會亂源"},{"start":61.445,"end":67.726,"text":"可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊"},{"start":69.037,"end":92.507,"text":"不是,我現在的態度是需要,因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在金管委員長,我要解決這個問題對,你要解決問題,你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的裁定嗎?"},{"start":94.415,"end":111.061,"text":"其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低它把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到它的本質去就是說合以"},{"start":112.301,"end":129.247,"text":"對 你用本質意圖在做一些排除啦沒有錯 你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎"},{"start":130.632,"end":158.921,"text":"他整個把他衝擊掉以後你再去修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你再重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張"},{"start":159.401,"end":170.253,"text":"對啦 但是就比例上來說啦就否定來說還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了 但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候總共高達123件那2024年的時候每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢 現在是5萬件在做成長"},{"start":180.163,"end":197.352,"text":"就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對"},{"start":201.534,"end":206.757,"text":"那第二來 你有沒有真正統計過整個呢 123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價值多少你們有沒有做過統計"},{"start":217.731,"end":240.174,"text":"我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛尤其是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對"},{"start":241.335,"end":264.81,"text":"我覺得這個是很重要的 否則的話你做了一個裁決不符社會成本 動用那麼多人 你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官 夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了 其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成 剩下三成也很多耶"},{"start":266.004,"end":288.045,"text":"不是嗎 是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多耶而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行 金融機構 保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人耶10%才是自然人而已耶"},{"start":289.953,"end":310.019,"text":"這還什麼公平正義可言嗎 主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了"},{"start":311.596,"end":324.535,"text":"幫到什麼程度 主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請 叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度 對不對"},{"start":328.984,"end":349.222,"text":"我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有"},{"start":350.023,"end":369.871,"text":"大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的產值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中的7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單要7萬多塊"},{"start":374.053,"end":394.782,"text":"大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔"},{"start":396.282,"end":413.541,"text":"這種社會保險性質算蠻高 當初政府算是鼓勵的這綜合保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單只要是50萬以下應該免執行包括這些都應該思考一下 主委你認為是不是比較合理一些"},{"start":414.242,"end":434.11,"text":"跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話,我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對"},{"start":434.99,"end":454.511,"text":"一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個"},{"start":457.033,"end":477.142,"text":"週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險對 重點是本質啊對 就是它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是"},{"start":479.324,"end":492.699,"text":"對 然後接下來那個主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢"},{"start":493.72,"end":518.786,"text":"就是他在海外有一些維京群島、開曼群島等等來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後出貨然後來割韭菜主委你有沒有看到這個消息"},{"start":520.937,"end":544.334,"text":"這個部分的話 我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來 旗局局長來 局長請張局長委員 這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32%的百分比"},{"start":547.901,"end":575.613,"text":"我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有 主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症"},{"start":577.034,"end":595.646,"text":"所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還是說這些內容"},{"start":598.748,"end":619.802,"text":"剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是"},{"start":622.062,"end":636.45,"text":"可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":322,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。保單可否強制執行這件事，嚴格來說，在法界原來有不同的一些聲音，有的是否定說，有的是肯定說。在105年高等法院的法律座談，來自於各級法院代表討論的時候還是相對否定的，可是到了大法庭會議的時候，裁定變成肯定的。主委，依照你是主委又是學者的一個角度來說，你是比較贊同否定還是肯定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，假設我現在還是彭老師的話，我會持否定說。"],["郭委員國文：你會支持否定，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝你直截了當的說，我個人老實講我也是否定派的，我覺得基本上法官造法不是一件好事，他治絲益棼而形成一種社會亂源。可是當你是主委，如果你是否定的話，你現在的修法態度是採取順從的態度啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我現在的態度是……因為對一個主張可以有自己一方之見，但是我們現在是站在金管會立場，我要解決這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：你要解決問題，基本上是順從他那個邏輯的方向在解決，難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這個大法官會議的裁定嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容。"],["郭委員國文：有沒有可能比如說釋憲或是其他的手段？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經在修正這個內容，但我剛才說我現在是金管會主委，我不是……"],["郭委員國文：你是把這個衝擊降低到最小，你現在方式是修正的方式。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們回到他的本質，就是何以這個會成為債務人的……"],["郭委員國文：你從本質裡頭再做一些排除啦，沒有錯，你要做一些排除，我知道。但是法官造法是對整個社會保險制度的衝擊，你做金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎？他整個衝擊掉後，你再修修補補，他拿大卡車把你的牆撞掉以後，你才重新砌牆，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同，在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法，否定說、肯定說，目的是要再把對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點，但實際上，你會發覺否定說也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張，肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張。"],["郭委員國文：對啦！但是就比例上來說，否定說還是相對比較合理，我這裡頭有寫了，但是我們不是在爭論這個重點，我們還是要回到現實的問題，在2023年強制執行案件數總共高達123萬件，2024年每個月都四萬多件在成長，2025年是5萬件成長，大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會，而相關當事人分散在全國各地，可是所有案件都集中在臺北法院，你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說，划得來嗎？一來是這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實這衍生出……"],["郭委員國文：真正會去陳情不多，對不對？第二，你有沒有統計過123萬件當中，真正有執行是9.1萬件，占了不過是7.4%而已，到底這9.1萬件強制執行結果的保單價值是多少，你們有沒有做過統計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請公會去了解這個比率，詳細金額必須要逐件去看，因為它已經進入到司法程序。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我說9.1萬件已經執行完成，你至少從這樣往前推，也就是這個標的執行，講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債，要債是否符合成本？我覺得這個是很重要的，否則做了一個裁決不符社會成本，動用那麼多人，整個臺北地院一個執行官夯不啷噹手頭都有兩、三千件，根本負荷不了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們要趕快來處理這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：即便你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了，減掉七成，剩下三成也很多，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：即便你修法之後，減掉七成還是很多耶！而且你修了這個，法院幫人要債，好到誰？好到這些銀行、金融機構、保險公司，還有什麼？最為社會詬病的三大融資公司，90%都是法人，10%才是自然人，主委，這還有什麼公平正義可言嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們從比例上看……"],["郭委員國文：拿國家的機器在幫這些法人、在社會上既得利益者來要債，而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的被保險人，需要被保險，他需要受益的時候，他的權益就被拿掉了。而且幫到什麼程度？主委，一般而言，債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料，結果他可以申請叫法院幫他申請資料，法院服務做到這種程度。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法，我們是被動，因為這已經衍生了社會的問題，我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題，而且是能從根本的本質上……剛剛講的，雖然沒有錯，大部分都是法人機構去執行，但是也有大概10%也是很有可能是一些……"],["郭委員國文：10%啦！它的架構是可能藏潛在這個保單當中，所以我剛剛問你，到底它真正的殘值有多少？才能建構起來它的正當性跟利潤基礎，然後你現在弄一個版本，一張免強制執行的保單七萬多塊，約莫是臺北市三個月的生活保障，老實說我認為是偏低，至少要double變六個月，我是跟你交換心得。","另外，關於介於社會保險跟商業保險之間的小額終老保險，這種社會保險性質算蠻高，當初政府算是鼓勵的，終老保險的金額大概是10萬到90萬之間，類似這種應該折衷，不管幾張保單，只要是50萬以下應該免執行，包括這些都應該思考一下，主委，你認為這是不是比較合理一些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，剛才委員提到的兩點，第一個是額度的部分，我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講得很明確，這一點我們是持開放態度，社會有共識，委員有共識，我們都尊重。再來，假設認為有其他的，因為我們修法要本於一個衡平的角度，我們提出一般化的內容，比如，針對一定金額以下的人壽保險和年金保險不得做強制執行，但是如果還有其他的社會考慮，我們也尊重。只是我們認為對小額終老保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它，因為這個不具有持續性，我剛才有講，小額終老保險不是保險法上面一個周延的名詞，它是一種商品名稱，假設有人買了一個終身壽險以及一個定期壽險，其實本質上沒有太大的差別，它就是一個終身壽險。"],["郭委員國文：對，重點是本質。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它就是一個終身壽險，一個商業的終身壽險，只是它的保費相對比較便宜，核保比較寬鬆一點。"],["郭委員國文：主委，反正我們後續還會再討論。接下來，最近金管會也面臨一些洗產地的問題，就是臺資假冒外資來割韭菜，它怎麼割呢？它到海外一些維京群島、開曼群島等等設定不同的帳戶，進入臺灣內部來進行炒股票和洗錢的資金，與本土券商、外資券商結合來互相買賣、拉抬，甚至跟國內一些不肖投顧分析師勾結，出貨來割韭菜，主委，你有沒有看到這個消息？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分我們可不可以請……"],["郭委員國文：依調查局報告，隔日當沖大戶來自海外，你們有沒有去瞭解這個訊息，有沒有去調查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，我可不可以請證期局局長來跟你說明一下？"],["郭委員國文：證期局張局長請。"],["張局長振山：委員，目前來講，我們整個當沖的交易是降低的，現在只有32%，我們現在市場的當沖交易已經降低了。"],["郭委員國文：這樣我實在聽不太清楚，口罩遮得很嚴，然後距離也沒有很近。主委，我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況發生，這種假外資的資本屬性也要去確認，臺資假外資是一種狀況，港資是一種狀況，中資又是另外一種狀況，不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場困擾，也造成不一樣的後遺症。所以主委，以前外資很容易設定這些斷點，你要如何去突破？不然遲早都會出現這些大問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在也關注到這個問題，因為我們大概也會朝這個方向，比如，針對他們未來申請時的資訊提供等這些東西，我們都要來強化，還有這些內容，剛才講到因為我們會面臨到新的狀況，我們就要有新的作法，我非常同意委員的這些意見。"],["郭委員國文：外面在查詢的過程當中，我知道你們過去其實也滿困難的，但滿困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性，比如去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式，主委，你在這個部分如果後續還有一些餘力和時間的話，我覺得應該做這些鋪陳，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，這部分也是一個對最終受益人資本的管理，這些都是我們應該要做的。"],["郭委員國文：應該要啦！這個雖然是中長期，還是值得做，否則的話衝擊太大，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}}