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\"一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 276.62, \"end\": 276.84, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 276.84, \"end\": 277.0, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 277.0, \"end\": 277.24, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"B\", \"start\": 277.24, \"end\": 277.601, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 277.601, \"end\": 278.161, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 278.161, \"end\": 279.582, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 279.582, \"end\": 280.062, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 280.062, \"end\": 280.262, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"零\", \"start\": 280.262, \"end\": 280.362, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"零\", 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\"當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 379.712, \"end\": 380.093, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 380.093, \"end\": 380.193, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 380.193, \"end\": 380.393, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 380.393, \"end\": 380.713, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 380.713, \"end\": 380.953, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 380.953, \"end\": 381.053, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 381.053, \"end\": 381.253, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"舊\"}, {\"word\": \"寶\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 381.253, \"end\": 382.013, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"周\", \"start\": 382.013, \"end\": 382.754, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", 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\"周\", \"start\": 398.44, \"end\": 398.801, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 398.801, \"end\": 398.981, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 398.981, \"end\": 399.101, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 399.101, \"end\": 399.721, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 399.721, \"end\": 400.061, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 400.061, \"end\": 400.501, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"態\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 400.501, \"end\": 400.982, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 400.982, \"end\": 401.182, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 401.182, \"end\": 401.362, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 401.362, \"end\": 401.502, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 401.502, \"end\": 401.782, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 401.782, \"end\": 401.802, \"score\": 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\"text\": \"他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 758.032, \"end\": 758.172, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 758.172, \"end\": 758.372, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 758.372, \"end\": 758.533, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 758.533, \"end\": 759.033, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 759.033, \"end\": 759.193, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 759.193, \"end\": 759.414, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 759.414, \"end\": 759.694, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 759.694, \"end\": 759.874, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 759.874, \"end\": 760.094, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 760.094, \"end\": 760.235, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 760.235, \"end\": 760.415, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"start\": 792.055, \"end\": 792.155, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 792.155, \"end\": 792.275, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 792.275, \"end\": 792.395, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 792.395, \"end\": 792.415, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,013 --> 00:00:11,534\n主席好我們請洪部長請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,147 --> 00:00:30,124\n主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案嘛您支持嗎這個勞動節放假的話\n\n3\n00:00:33,646 --> 00:00:58,334\n勞動節勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎應該指的因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題就是說\n\n4\n00:01:02,656 --> 00:01:19,610\n他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班根本就沒有一個休假的問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎\n\n5\n00:01:21,743 --> 00:01:49,878\n應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的\n\n6\n00:01:50,658 --> 00:02:17,559\n那我再請教部長我們總統蔡院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就一份解凍報告\n\n7\n00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:35,730\n那我就很納悶這有三個可能第一個可能我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了只是放著讓我們這一些你們政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來\n\n8\n00:02:37,511 --> 00:03:03,869\n這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛\n\n9\n00:03:04,910 --> 00:03:29,800\n但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕監配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先遞貨再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們\n\n10\n00:03:30,620 --> 00:03:49,498\n又開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好\n\n11\n00:03:50,439 --> 00:04:19,343\n跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧\n\n12\n00:04:20,143 --> 00:04:35,659\n我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案\n\n13\n00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:58,771\n一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個\n\n14\n00:04:59,491 --> 00:05:19,812\n其實今年我想委員知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以該回到該委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明\n\n15\n00:05:22,695 --> 00:05:40,255\n我們其實沒有刻意要壓軌甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說你要真的聽懂我知道我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的那個因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面\n\n16\n00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:47,618\n但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完\n\n17\n00:06:08,024 --> 00:06:17,798\n但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎\n\n18\n00:06:19,712 --> 00:06:41,802\n當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法\n\n19\n00:06:43,506 --> 00:07:11,557\n對沒有出來然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的並不是這樣所以你們現在你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的\n\n20\n00:07:13,868 --> 00:07:24,642\n或刻意變不夠啊對啊112年就不夠啦對當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討\n\n21\n00:07:26,175 --> 00:07:53,654\n也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天\n\n22\n00:07:54,474 --> 00:08:20,184\n第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛\n\n23\n00:08:22,443 --> 00:08:39,945\n對不對是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主\n\n24\n00:08:42,750 --> 00:09:00,384\n讓勞工去做產檢架或賠償檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢這筆預算都是放這裡\n\n25\n00:09:02,746 --> 00:09:30,002\n錢是夠的嘛對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千九千八千五百四十萬嘛對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共\n\n26\n00:09:31,621 --> 00:09:49,448\n剪下來的話我們大概還有七千多萬嘛對不對三除八百萬然後凍結將近兩千萬兩千萬凍結先不講三除歸三除嘛三除八百萬然後凍結將近兩千萬對啊那剪下來是不是還有八千多萬\n\n27\n00:09:50,720 --> 00:10:15,174\n七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的這個薪資補貼對其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對你都是放在統一欄嘛對不對那個委員整個項目是九千多萬對\n\n28\n00:10:20,270 --> 00:10:44,770\n那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎\n\n29\n00:10:49,470 --> 00:11:10,839\n這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有\n\n30\n00:11:12,099 --> 00:11:24,504\n報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除\n\n31\n00:11:27,205 --> 00:11:41,702\n但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不是都不用做事\n\n32\n00:11:42,182 --> 00:11:58,748\n如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結\n\n33\n00:12:00,368 --> 00:12:15,375\n對不對凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行\n\n34\n00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:34,843\n的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢價跟賠產檢價的執行\n\n35\n00:12:38,032 --> 00:12:54,071\n他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好\n\n36\n00:12:54,651 --> 00:13:12,415\n那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢加賠償減價至於有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢加跟賠償減價讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了我們都送了好那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10013\t11534\t主席好我們請洪部長請洪部長\n19147\t30124\t主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案嘛您支持嗎這個勞動節放假的話\n33646\t58334\t勞動節 勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎應該指的 因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對 我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下 我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題就是說\n62656\t79610\t他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班根本就沒有一個休假的問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎\n81743\t109878\t應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的\n110658\t137559\t那我再請教部長我們總統蔡院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就一份解凍報告\n138760\t155730\t那我就很納悶 這有三個可能第一個可能 我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了 只是放著讓我們這一些你們政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來\n157511\t183869\t這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了 昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦 你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛\n184910\t209800\t但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕監配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先遞貨再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們\n210620\t229498\t又開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好\n230439\t259343\t跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧\n260143\t275659\t我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案\n276620\t298771\t一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個\n299491\t319812\t其實今年我想委員知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以該回到該委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明\n322695\t340255\t我們其實沒有刻意要壓軌甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說你要真的聽懂我知道 我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的那個因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面\n340876\t347618\t但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完\n368024\t377798\t但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎\n379712\t401802\t當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法\n403506\t431557\t對 沒有出來 然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的 並不是這樣所以你們現在 你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的\n433868\t444642\t或刻意變不夠啊對啊 112年就不夠啦對 當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討\n446175\t473654\t也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天\n474474\t500184\t第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛\n502443\t519945\t對不對 是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主\n522750\t540384\t讓勞工去做產檢架或賠償檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先 僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢 這筆預算都是放這裡\n542746\t570002\t錢是夠的嘛 對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千 九千八千五百四十萬嘛 對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的 是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共\n571621\t589448\t剪下來的話 我們大概還有七千多萬嘛 對不對三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬兩千萬凍結先不講 三除歸三除嘛三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬對啊 那剪下來是不是還有八千多萬\n590720\t615174\t七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的這個薪資補貼對 其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是 還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對 你都是放在統一欄嘛 對不對那個委員整個項目是九千多萬對\n620270\t644770\t那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎\n649470\t670839\t這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有\n672099\t684504\t報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除\n687205\t701702\t但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不是都不用做事\n702182\t718748\t如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結\n720368\t735375\t對不對 凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行\n736596\t754843\t的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢價跟賠產檢價的執行\n758032\t774071\t他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好\n774651\t792415\t那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢加賠償減價 至於有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢加跟賠償減價讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你 這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了 我們都送了好 那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席好我們請洪部長請洪部長\n主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案嘛您支持嗎這個勞動節放假的話\n勞動節 勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎應該指的 因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對 我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下 我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題就是說\n他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班根本就沒有一個休假的問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎\n應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的\n那我再請教部長我們總統蔡院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就一份解凍報告\n那我就很納悶 這有三個可能第一個可能 我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了 只是放著讓我們這一些你們政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來\n這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了 昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦 你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛\n但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕監配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先遞貨再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們\n又開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好\n跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧\n我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案\n一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個\n其實今年我想委員知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以該回到該委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明\n我們其實沒有刻意要壓軌甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說你要真的聽懂我知道 我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的那個因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面\n但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完\n但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎\n當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法\n對 沒有出來 然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的 並不是這樣所以你們現在 你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的\n或刻意變不夠啊對啊 112年就不夠啦對 當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討\n也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天\n第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛\n對不對 是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主\n讓勞工去做產檢架或賠償檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先 僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢 這筆預算都是放這裡\n錢是夠的嘛 對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千 九千八千五百四十萬嘛 對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的 是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共\n剪下來的話 我們大概還有七千多萬嘛 對不對三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬兩千萬凍結先不講 三除歸三除嘛三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬對啊 那剪下來是不是還有八千多萬\n七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的這個薪資補貼對 其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是 還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對 你都是放在統一欄嘛 對不對那個委員整個項目是九千多萬對\n那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎\n這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有\n報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除\n但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不是都不用做事\n如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結\n對不對 凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行\n的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢價跟賠產檢價的執行\n他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好\n那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢加賠償減價 至於有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢加跟賠償減價讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你 這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了 我們都送了好 那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.013 --> 00:11.534\n主席好我們請洪部長請洪部長\n\n00:19.147 --> 00:30.124\n主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案嘛您支持嗎這個勞動節放假的話\n\n00:33.646 --> 00:58.334\n勞動節勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎應該指的因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題就是說\n\n01:02.656 --> 01:19.610\n他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班根本就沒有一個休假的問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎\n\n01:21.743 --> 01:49.878\n應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的\n\n01:50.658 --> 02:17.559\n那我再請教部長我們總統蔡院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就一份解凍報告\n\n02:18.760 --> 02:35.730\n那我就很納悶這有三個可能第一個可能我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了只是放著讓我們這一些你們政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來\n\n02:37.511 --> 03:03.869\n這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛\n\n03:04.910 --> 03:29.800\n但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕監配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先遞貨再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們\n\n03:30.620 --> 03:49.498\n又開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好\n\n03:50.439 --> 04:19.343\n跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧\n\n04:20.143 --> 04:35.659\n我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案\n\n04:36.620 --> 04:58.771\n一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個\n\n04:59.491 --> 05:19.812\n其實今年我想委員知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以該回到該委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明\n\n05:22.695 --> 05:40.255\n我們其實沒有刻意要壓軌甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說你要真的聽懂我知道我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的那個因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面\n\n05:40.876 --> 05:47.618\n但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完\n\n06:08.024 --> 06:17.798\n但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎\n\n06:19.712 --> 06:41.802\n當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法\n\n06:43.506 --> 07:11.557\n對沒有出來然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的並不是這樣所以你們現在你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的\n\n07:13.868 --> 07:24.642\n或刻意變不夠啊對啊112年就不夠啦對當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討\n\n07:26.175 --> 07:53.654\n也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天\n\n07:54.474 --> 08:20.184\n第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛\n\n08:22.443 --> 08:39.945\n對不對是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主\n\n08:42.750 --> 09:00.384\n讓勞工去做產檢架或賠償檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢這筆預算都是放這裡\n\n09:02.746 --> 09:30.002\n錢是夠的嘛對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千九千八千五百四十萬嘛對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共\n\n09:31.621 --> 09:49.448\n剪下來的話我們大概還有七千多萬嘛對不對三除八百萬然後凍結將近兩千萬兩千萬凍結先不講三除歸三除嘛三除八百萬然後凍結將近兩千萬對啊那剪下來是不是還有八千多萬\n\n09:50.720 --> 10:15.174\n七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的這個薪資補貼對其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對你都是放在統一欄嘛對不對那個委員整個項目是九千多萬對\n\n10:20.270 --> 10:44.770\n那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎\n\n10:49.470 --> 11:10.839\n這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有\n\n11:12.099 --> 11:24.504\n報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除\n\n11:27.205 --> 11:41.702\n但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不是都不用做事\n\n11:42.182 --> 11:58.748\n如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結\n\n12:00.368 --> 12:15.375\n對不對凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行\n\n12:16.596 --> 12:34.843\n的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢價跟賠產檢價的執行\n\n12:38.032 --> 12:54.071\n他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好\n\n12:54.651 --> 13:12.415\n那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢加賠償減價至於有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢加跟賠償減價讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了我們都送了好那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.013,"end":11.534,"text":"主席好我們請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":19.147,"end":30.124,"text":"主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案嘛您支持嗎這個勞動節放假的話"},{"start":33.646,"end":58.334,"text":"勞動節 勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎應該指的 因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對 我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下 我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題就是說"},{"start":62.656,"end":79.61,"text":"他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班根本就沒有一個休假的問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎"},{"start":81.743,"end":109.878,"text":"應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的"},{"start":110.658,"end":137.559,"text":"那我再請教部長我們總統蔡院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就一份解凍報告"},{"start":138.76,"end":155.73,"text":"那我就很納悶 這有三個可能第一個可能 我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了 只是放著讓我們這一些你們政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來"},{"start":157.511,"end":183.869,"text":"這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了 昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦 你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛"},{"start":184.91,"end":209.8,"text":"但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕監配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先遞貨再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們"},{"start":210.62,"end":229.498,"text":"又開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好"},{"start":230.439,"end":259.343,"text":"跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧"},{"start":260.143,"end":275.659,"text":"我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案"},{"start":276.62,"end":298.771,"text":"一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個"},{"start":299.491,"end":319.812,"text":"其實今年我想委員知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以該回到該委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明"},{"start":322.695,"end":340.255,"text":"我們其實沒有刻意要壓軌甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說你要真的聽懂我知道 我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的那個因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面"},{"start":340.876,"end":347.618,"text":"但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完"},{"start":368.024,"end":377.798,"text":"但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎"},{"start":379.712,"end":401.802,"text":"當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法"},{"start":403.506,"end":431.557,"text":"對 沒有出來 然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的 並不是這樣所以你們現在 你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的"},{"start":433.868,"end":444.642,"text":"或刻意變不夠啊對啊 112年就不夠啦對 當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討"},{"start":446.175,"end":473.654,"text":"也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天"},{"start":474.474,"end":500.184,"text":"第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛"},{"start":502.443,"end":519.945,"text":"對不對 是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主"},{"start":522.75,"end":540.384,"text":"讓勞工去做產檢架或賠償檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先 僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢 這筆預算都是放這裡"},{"start":542.746,"end":570.002,"text":"錢是夠的嘛 對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千 九千八千五百四十萬嘛 對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的 是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共"},{"start":571.621,"end":589.448,"text":"剪下來的話 我們大概還有七千多萬嘛 對不對三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬兩千萬凍結先不講 三除歸三除嘛三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬對啊 那剪下來是不是還有八千多萬"},{"start":590.72,"end":615.174,"text":"七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的這個薪資補貼對 其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是 還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對 你都是放在統一欄嘛 對不對那個委員整個項目是九千多萬對"},{"start":620.27,"end":644.77,"text":"那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎"},{"start":649.47,"end":670.839,"text":"這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有"},{"start":672.099,"end":684.504,"text":"報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除"},{"start":687.205,"end":701.702,"text":"但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不是都不用做事"},{"start":702.182,"end":718.748,"text":"如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結"},{"start":720.368,"end":735.375,"text":"對不對 凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行"},{"start":736.596,"end":754.843,"text":"的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢價跟賠產檢價的執行"},{"start":758.032,"end":774.071,"text":"他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好"},{"start":774.651,"end":792.415,"text":"那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢加賠償減價 至於有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢加跟賠償減價讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你 這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了 我們都送了好 那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時5分）主席好，我們請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我請問一下，今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例草案，勞動節放假的話，您支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：勞動節放假。"],["洪部長申翰：五一嘛。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在五一其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你個人支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在五一勞工其實已經放假了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我知道，我是說其他的。"],["洪部長申翰：你指的應該是五一統一放假吧？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：五一統一放假行政院其實已經有說了，我們的目標希望在下個年度就能夠實施五一統一放假。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你也是支持嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再建議一下，剛剛我看陳昭姿委員也有問這一題，臺大進行勞動節出勤意願的調查，他們叫員工填單，但出勤表原則上都是要上班，根本看不到要補休還是要加班，對不對？根本就沒有休假的選項，你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們有看了這個相關的書件、書單，確實，目前如果按照這個書單來看的話，它可能比較沒有辦法充分地讓勞工朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，這個部分請你們再多加注意，好不好？勞工的權益不能……"],["洪部長申翰：我們在4月28號已經有發函給臺北市政府，希望臺北市政府針對這部分釐清，並給予相關的檢查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好的。我再請教部長，卓榮泰院長在4月22號開了綠燈，要你們開始送解凍案。按照部長在社群媒體發的文，我們看到勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分，這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍電子文件，平均不到3分鐘就有一份解凍報告。我就很納悶，這有三個可能，第一個也是我認為最有可能的，就是其實這些早就寫好了，只是放著，讓一些政治議題的謠言、素材都能夠累積得差不多了再送，但是因為最近被公務人員踢爆，發現輿論扛不住了，卓院長才開綠燈。但你們不是先例，文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息，很明確地顯示就是先寫好壓著，如果是這樣，當然也就說明一件事情，就是政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的，說是在乎人民的權益，但根本就是把它放在一邊而已，這是第一個可能。另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕件配合，如果是這個，我就要請教部長，這有沒有壓榨公務人員的嫌疑？我問完你再回答。最後一個就是濫竽充數，亂寫，先丟了再說，變相向委員會施壓，意思就是解凍案已經送了，報告內容如果委員覺得不行，你們又要開始造謠說我們立委在阻擋解凍案，如果是這樣的話，我跟部長講，你們算盤還是打錯了，身為專業的立委，解凍案我們還是會照程序來審核。部長，你覺得是哪一個？"],["洪部長申翰：跟邱委員說明，實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：其實勞動部歷年來一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序，而且過去我們都是要求本部和相關所屬的解凍案在同一日發文，所以過去大家也都是在同一天發文。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是等到一聲令下才發，沒有命令就不會發，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，過去就是要同一天發文，同一天發文的原因有幾個，第一個，避免漏案的狀況發生。第二個，也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院是同一個時間來做審查，因為如果A案一個月前發，B案幾個月後發，其實零零散散的發，很有可能到時候在立法院的審查是分開的。我們希望到時候在立法院是同一時間來安排審查，所以過去就是要求同一日期發文，今年解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我想委員也知道，因為今年預算的審查波折比較多，所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布總預算。我們發文的時間大概是在四月二十幾號，中間大概一個月左右的時間，我想這個時間、時程應該屬於正常的範圍，我們並沒有拖延，所以回到剛剛委員說的幾種狀況……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長，你講得很清楚了……"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，我們其實沒有刻意要壓文，甚至政治上的盤算……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好了，你不要再講了，因為我們也聽懂了，我的意思是說……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你要真的聽懂。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，我的意思是，我希望不要有太多的政治因素在裡面，不要有太多的政治操作在裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我最不希望看到的就是你們壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有這個事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，下一題。112年的時候勞工的產檢假、陪產假，還有陪產檢假預算編不夠，只編了4,200萬元左右，在當年度實際申請的7,178萬裡面，大概少了3,000萬左右，當時發現4,200萬可能在7月就會用完，但是當時預算是沒有編夠的，卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益，申請還是非常的順利，部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當時就知道有跟就保做周轉。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：但是這並不是一個常態的作法，並不是過去有過這樣的周轉案例，未來就是想怎麼刪、怎麼砍都是OK的，並不是這樣。甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況，所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常作法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，沒有錯，然後呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為並不是過去有發生過周轉，所以現在怎麼刪、怎麼凍都是OK的，並不是這樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在的意思是，現在編的預算希望一次編夠，不要有不足的部分，也不要去跟其他的預算科目借錢，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：預算的編列當然都是希望能夠編夠，很少會有希望預算編不夠或刻意編不夠的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，但112年就不夠了……"],["洪部長申翰：對，當年是有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：113年……"],["洪部長申翰：當年是有那個狀況，所以後來用周轉的方式，可是這個周轉其實包括立法院預算中心也叫我們要檢討，所以不是因為可以周轉，預算想怎麼編就怎麼編，想怎麼刪就怎麼刪，想怎麼凍就怎麼凍，並不是這樣子的，就算過去有過這樣的作法，可是那個並不該被設定為一個正常的常態。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是正常的啦，所以我也希望你們一次把該用的錢編足，因為你們的基礎應該是以去年的金額來做衡量嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個補助總共7天，第1天到第5天的薪資是雇主付的，第6天、第7天是跟勞動部來申請補助。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：雇主當然是要先墊付，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：墊付完了之後才……"],["洪部長申翰：來請款。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，原則上7天的錢雇主要給新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部請款，所以給新手爸媽的錢雇主早就付了，剩下的應該是雇主跟勞動部的關係，對不對？是勞動部跟雇主的事情，因為雇主已經先出了嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這個不能這樣看，因為雇主也是先知道第6天跟第7天勞動部會給予補助，所以如果第6天跟第7天勞動部薪資補助的錢卡住的話，很有可能會影響雇主讓勞工去做產檢假或陪產檢假的意願，這是連動的關係，並不是說他會先付，然後就變成只是勞動部跟雇主之間的關係，並不是這樣子看的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！我現在講的是雇主先出嘛，你講的意思當然是你希望這筆錢、這筆預算都是放著，錢是夠的，對不對？你也不希望不夠，之前我們講到今年編了8,540萬，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，整個預算是9,714萬嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：刪了800萬。"],["洪部長申翰：不是我們刪的，是貴院刪的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，沒有錯，是我們刪的沒錯。總共減下來的話，你們大概還有七千多萬，對不對？還有7,740萬。"],["洪部長申翰：刪除800萬，然後凍結將近2,000萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：2,000萬凍結的部分先不講，刪除歸刪除嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：刪除800萬，然後凍結將近2,000萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，那減下來是不是還有7,740萬？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的薪資補貼。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，其他的部分，沒錯。"],["洪部長申翰：其他補助我們也要辦理……很多性平或是勞動部平等的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，你現在是把9,714萬，然後刪了800萬就放在同一欄裡面嘛，這個不管……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，還有包括2,000萬的凍結啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你都是放在同一欄嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，整個項目是九千多萬……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：刪了800萬，凍了兩千多萬，這加起來就已經接近兩千八百萬……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還有大概七千萬左右。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過了原本我們編列八千多萬，但是產檢假、陪產檢假相關的補助……"],["邱委員鎮軍：凍結不能這樣算啊，對不對？因為你一定要執行到……我跟你講，當初為什麼會凍結，你知道嗎？為什麼會凍結，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員可以再提醒。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我幫你複習一下，當初為什麼被凍結20%？原因就是因為近5年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件，勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任，裡面特別提出來，高工時的問題，雇主延長勞工工時，但是沒有報付加班費；再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰，長期都有編預算，但是問題一堆，他們是希望你們把這事情做好，所以才會去凍結預算。凍結不等於刪除，你懂嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：凍結不等於刪除……"],["邱委員鎮軍：只是希望……"],["洪部長申翰：但是凍結還是會在預算的執行上面產生不確定性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：只是不確定，其實……"],["洪部長申翰：還是會有不確定性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在以前，我們以往的慣例裡面，所有凍結的預算，如果都是照你這種邏輯的話，那大家是不是都不用做事？"],["洪部長申翰：如果凍結就一定可以用的話，我想從貴院的角度來說，其實凍結就不用凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，不是，那個不太一樣。"],["洪部長申翰：凍結，當然會在預算的執行上面產生不確定性啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：凍結是希望……其實凍結解凍的條件有好幾種，是希望你提出報告，或者是說你已經執行到百分之幾之後，我們再來提解凍，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，凍結是事實，凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我沒有講它不是事實，我現在講的是事實沒錯，但是如果以以往我們預算案、所有預算的凍結案來講，因為你執行沒有達到預期的效果，或者是我們希望單位再提出新的辦法來改進，這些你只要提報告出來，一般都會解凍。"],["洪部長申翰：我們這個案子裡面，坦白說凍結的理由也不是產檢假跟陪產檢假的執行，他講的是勞基法其他的事情，這也是讓我們覺得困惑的。如果是針對我們在產檢假跟陪產檢假過去有執行不妥當的地方，你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評，要我們把產檢假跟陪產檢假的執行做得更好，這個我們當然會接受，因為產檢假跟陪產檢假執行有問題……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我時間到了……"],["洪部長申翰：可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢假跟陪產檢假，讓新手的爸媽……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我問你啦……"],["洪部長申翰：得到幫助的機會，可能產生很多不確定性……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為時間到了，這個案子，你提解凍了沒？"],["洪部長申翰：我們都提了，都送了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我們到時候再來審。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝。報告委員會，也在這邊作宣告：我們等王正旭委員詢答結束之後才休息。","接下來請王育敏委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}}