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\"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 682.91, \"end\": 683.01, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 683.01, \"end\": 683.13, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 683.13, \"end\": 683.33, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 683.33, \"end\": 683.851, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 683.851, \"end\": 683.931, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 683.931, \"end\": 684.091, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 684.091, \"end\": 684.111, \"score\": 0.02}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,009 --> 00:00:11,350\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請洪部長來請部長黃委員好\n\n2\n00:00:19,144 --> 00:00:40,176\n部長你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%\n\n3\n00:00:43,177 --> 00:01:11,265\n針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰\n\n4\n00:01:12,225 --> 00:01:34,202\n都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成\n\n5\n00:01:34,582 --> 00:01:59,251\n新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做的不夠的你們的檢討是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:00,945 --> 00:02:19,470\n我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討\n\n7\n00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:47,385\n那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面\n\n8\n00:02:47,965 --> 00:03:08,318\n其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出慈安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說到說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做慈安位的使用\n\n9\n00:03:09,238 --> 00:03:27,070\n在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很\n\n10\n00:03:28,070 --> 00:03:42,487\n這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化\n\n11\n00:03:49,094 --> 00:04:00,900\n減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底\n\n12\n00:04:16,647 --> 00:04:42,527\n就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎\n\n13\n00:04:44,474 --> 00:05:05,887\n蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎\n\n14\n00:05:07,128 --> 00:05:35,107\n你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的工這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦吼所以\n\n15\n00:05:37,048 --> 00:05:45,331\n所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標那所以我們在這個你們在可施化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼內政部協助了什麼\n\n16\n00:06:01,066 --> 00:06:19,325\n這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少\n\n17\n00:06:20,526 --> 00:06:33,650\n你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就\n\n18\n00:06:36,231 --> 00:06:56,240\n產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年\n\n19\n00:06:57,981 --> 00:07:19,492\n然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作\n\n20\n00:07:25,569 --> 00:07:53,749\n來部長回答內政部請先回跟委員說明第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員一個更新的數據那你們可以直接告訴大家好\n\n21\n00:07:54,830 --> 00:08:12,854\n再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡\n\n22\n00:08:13,334 --> 00:08:30,809\n不是重傷就會死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練的人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢\n\n23\n00:08:36,263 --> 00:08:52,535\n去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降\n\n24\n00:08:52,955 --> 00:09:11,703\n那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有關心對跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育院的職類非常多他有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管他是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括\n\n25\n00:09:14,544 --> 00:09:29,193\n工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數\n\n26\n00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:56,430\n是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有退一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有\n\n27\n00:09:59,111 --> 00:10:20,653\n跟委員報告,確實這個移工的安全衛生教育是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分,到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡\n\n28\n00:10:21,155 --> 00:10:39,195\n就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言\n\n29\n00:10:40,456 --> 00:10:54,194\n讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識\n\n30\n00:10:59,295 --> 00:11:24,111\n好我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事好不好謝謝王委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10009\t11350\t謝謝主席 我們是不是有請洪部長來 請部長黃委員好\n19144\t40176\t部長你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%\n43177\t71265\t針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰\n72225\t94202\t都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成\n94582\t119251\t新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做的不夠的你們的檢討是什麼\n120945\t139470\t我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討\n141070\t167385\t那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面\n167965\t188318\t其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出慈安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說到說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做慈安位的使用\n189238\t207070\t在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很\n208070\t222487\t這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化\n229094\t240900\t減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底\n256647\t282527\t就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎\n284474\t305887\t蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎\n307128\t335107\t你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的工這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦吼所以\n337048\t345331\t所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標那所以我們在這個你們在可施化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見 風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼 內政部協助了什麼\n361066\t379325\t這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少\n380526\t393650\t你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就\n396231\t416240\t產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年\n417981\t439492\t然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作\n445569\t473749\t來 部長回答 內政部請先回跟委員說明 第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多 滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員一個更新的數據那你們可以直接告訴大家好\n474830\t492854\t再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡\n493334\t510809\t不是重傷就會死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練的人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢\n516263\t532535\t去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降\n532955\t551703\t那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有關心對跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育院的職類非常多他有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管他是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括\n554544\t569193\t工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數\n573716\t596430\t是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有退一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有\n599111\t620653\t跟委員報告,確實這個移工的安全衛生教育是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分,到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡\n621155\t639195\t就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言\n640456\t654194\t讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識\n659295\t684111\t好 我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全 職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事 好不好謝謝王委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請洪部長來 請部長黃委員好\n部長你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%\n針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰\n都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成\n新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做的不夠的你們的檢討是什麼\n我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討\n那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面\n其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出慈安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說到說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做慈安位的使用\n在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很\n這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化\n減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底\n就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎\n蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎\n你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的工這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦吼所以\n所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標那所以我們在這個你們在可施化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見 風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼 內政部協助了什麼\n這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少\n你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就\n產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年\n然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作\n來 部長回答 內政部請先回跟委員說明 第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多 滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員一個更新的數據那你們可以直接告訴大家好\n再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡\n不是重傷就會死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練的人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢\n去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降\n那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有關心對跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育院的職類非常多他有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管他是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括\n工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數\n是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有退一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有\n跟委員報告,確實這個移工的安全衛生教育是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分,到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡\n就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言\n讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識\n好 我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全 職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事 好不好謝謝王委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.009 --> 00:11.350\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請洪部長來請部長黃委員好\n\n00:19.144 --> 00:40.176\n部長你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%\n\n00:43.177 --> 01:11.265\n針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰\n\n01:12.225 --> 01:34.202\n都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成\n\n01:34.582 --> 01:59.251\n新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做的不夠的你們的檢討是什麼\n\n02:00.945 --> 02:19.470\n我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討\n\n02:21.070 --> 02:47.385\n那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面\n\n02:47.965 --> 03:08.318\n其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出慈安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說到說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做慈安位的使用\n\n03:09.238 --> 03:27.070\n在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很\n\n03:28.070 --> 03:42.487\n這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化\n\n03:49.094 --> 04:00.900\n減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底\n\n04:16.647 --> 04:42.527\n就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎\n\n04:44.474 --> 05:05.887\n蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎\n\n05:07.128 --> 05:35.107\n你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的工這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦吼所以\n\n05:37.048 --> 05:45.331\n所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標那所以我們在這個你們在可施化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼內政部協助了什麼\n\n06:01.066 --> 06:19.325\n這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少\n\n06:20.526 --> 06:33.650\n你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就\n\n06:36.231 --> 06:56.240\n產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年\n\n06:57.981 --> 07:19.492\n然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作\n\n07:25.569 --> 07:53.749\n來部長回答內政部請先回跟委員說明第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員一個更新的數據那你們可以直接告訴大家好\n\n07:54.830 --> 08:12.854\n再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡\n\n08:13.334 --> 08:30.809\n不是重傷就會死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練的人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢\n\n08:36.263 --> 08:52.535\n去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降\n\n08:52.955 --> 09:11.703\n那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有關心對跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育院的職類非常多他有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管他是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括\n\n09:14.544 --> 09:29.193\n工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數\n\n09:33.716 --> 09:56.430\n是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有退一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有\n\n09:59.111 --> 10:20.653\n跟委員報告,確實這個移工的安全衛生教育是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分,到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡\n\n10:21.155 --> 10:39.195\n就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言\n\n10:40.456 --> 10:54.194\n讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識\n\n10:59.295 --> 11:24.111\n好我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事好不好謝謝王委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.009,"end":11.35,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請洪部長來 請部長黃委員好"},{"start":19.144,"end":40.176,"text":"部長你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%"},{"start":43.177,"end":71.265,"text":"針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰"},{"start":72.225,"end":94.202,"text":"都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成"},{"start":94.582,"end":119.251,"text":"新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做的不夠的你們的檢討是什麼"},{"start":120.945,"end":139.47,"text":"我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討"},{"start":141.07,"end":167.385,"text":"那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面"},{"start":167.965,"end":188.318,"text":"其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出慈安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說到說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做慈安位的使用"},{"start":189.238,"end":207.07,"text":"在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很"},{"start":208.07,"end":222.487,"text":"這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化"},{"start":229.094,"end":240.9,"text":"減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底"},{"start":256.647,"end":282.527,"text":"就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎"},{"start":284.474,"end":305.887,"text":"蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎"},{"start":307.128,"end":335.107,"text":"你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的工這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦吼所以"},{"start":337.048,"end":345.331,"text":"所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標那所以我們在這個你們在可施化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見 風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼 內政部協助了什麼"},{"start":361.066,"end":379.325,"text":"這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少"},{"start":380.526,"end":393.65,"text":"你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就"},{"start":396.231,"end":416.24,"text":"產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年"},{"start":417.981,"end":439.492,"text":"然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作"},{"start":445.569,"end":473.749,"text":"來 部長回答 內政部請先回跟委員說明 第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多 滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員一個更新的數據那你們可以直接告訴大家好"},{"start":474.83,"end":492.854,"text":"再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡"},{"start":493.334,"end":510.809,"text":"不是重傷就會死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練的人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢"},{"start":516.263,"end":532.535,"text":"去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降"},{"start":532.955,"end":551.703,"text":"那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有關心對跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育院的職類非常多他有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管他是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括"},{"start":554.544,"end":569.193,"text":"工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數"},{"start":573.716,"end":596.43,"text":"是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有退一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有"},{"start":599.111,"end":620.653,"text":"跟委員報告,確實這個移工的安全衛生教育是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分,到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡"},{"start":621.155,"end":639.195,"text":"就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言"},{"start":640.456,"end":654.194,"text":"讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識"},{"start":659.295,"end":684.111,"text":"好 我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全 職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事 好不好謝謝王委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":463,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時18分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請洪部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你們在113（去）年的時候提出「營造業墜落打擊年」，你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人，但是實質上墜落致死的人數高達85人，超出你們原來設定目標的25%，針對這件事情，你們有沒有好好的檢討？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：到底你們設定了打擊年，結果越打擊死亡人數反而不降反升，這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多須要檢討的地方，沒有做到位。另外一個，我也讓你看一下我們跟日、韓比較起來，臺灣的曲線圖，營建業墜落致死的比例都是維持在一個高峰，維持在六成七左右，都沒有下降。我們鄰近的，你看看像日本跟南韓，南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰，但是人家有效地降下來了；至於日本，其實他們的工安做得比我們好，它都維持在三成多到四成；新加坡表現更好，新加坡墜落致死一直都維持在不到三成這樣的情況，有效地控制。臺灣這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善，反而有微幅地增加，去年還增加了25%，這代表我們在各項防災的落實上面，其實是做得不夠的，你們的檢討是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我先跟委員報告，第一個，確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標，但是其實去年不是增加，還是有減少，有稍微下降，但是確實沒有達到目標。沒有達到目標……"],["王委員育敏：跟目標比較起來就是超出25%嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討。就像剛剛委員說的，其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的作法，我們確實看到比方在新加坡，他們業主在工安事件裡面的責任是必須的、很強調被課責的。我們也看到了這些相關的狀況，包括我們的工地的文化，包括我們工地管理的狀況，包括我們很多營建業的工地層層轉包的狀況，很多責任在分包的過程裡面被切割，甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況。所以這一次我們提出職安法的修法，其實也是在處理第一個，讓業主是可以被究責的。其實大家都拿新加坡的案例來說，他可能要去做很多的風險分析，甚至要提撥一定的經費來做職安衛的使用。第二個，針對這些層層轉包的狀況，我們也在這次職安法修法裡面要求，你要有一個包商之間相關統合管理這樣子的責任，不會在層層轉包的過程裡面到處切割，結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很不幸的事件，或者是責任難以追究的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：好，你講的這兩項我通通都同意，但是我要提醒勞動部的是業者當然有角色，但也別忘了政府的角色在哪裡。我在去年其實就質詢，我們看看日本的作法，它在工地裡面將「可視化減災」的這個工程做得非常的澈底。事實上，你們去年在政府的角色，你們說要去推動包括安全看得見、風險看得見，就是可視化的減災工程，要去輔導、要去推動，但是看你們執行下來的數字，當然今天也有內政部在，我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任，內政部作為營建單位的主管機關，我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底。我記得去年質詢的時候，我說日本做得很好，你說我們也有，我們有打擊年，我們要去推動，結果你們執行下來，目前看起來，你們就是找了幾個示範的工地，真正申請通過數占整個比例來看，比例還是低的，你們真的有全力在推動嗎？","今天內政部的代表是誰？副總工程司嗎？蘇副總工程司，是不是你們也應該一起？這件事情我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任，像推動工地的安全，這個完全是可視化減災工程，我覺得它是可以收到立即性效果的，這個部分你們到底有沒有好好的推動？內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎？你們做了什麼？"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：謝謝委員。主要營造業分成公共工程跟民間工程，公共工程的這一塊，基本上有我們所謂政府採購法還有相關職安法這些來律定，所以我想我們公共工程的工程主辦機關，在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視，相對的在民間工程的這一塊，現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標。所以我們在民間工程的部分……"],["王委員育敏：你們在可視化減災工程這一個項目裡面，包括安全看得見、風險看得見，整個預防墜落的措施，你們內政部協助了什麼？"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：這個部分我們有示範工地在做教育訓練的推廣，目前有比較優良的廠商，我們後續都會做相關的觀摩，然後給各個……"],["王委員育敏：但你們的次數看起來都很少啊！相較於現在這麼多的工地來講，比例很少耶！"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：是。"],["王委員育敏：你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建工會，還有找業者，怎麼樣透過一個比較大規模的實施，而且去要求、逐步去要求？事實上你們這些示範，我個人覺得很好，這個視覺化裡面就產生了一個很好的警示的效果，可以透過視覺上提醒所有在工地現場所有的勞工，這個日本做得很好，所以他們在墜落的工安比例比我們更低，臺灣不要都只做半套，就是說感覺人家很好，我們呼了一個口號說「墜落打擊年」，然後呢？今年推動的力道有要更大嗎？有要強化嗎？這個部分在今天的報告，坦白講我都沒有看到，「墜落打擊年」這幾個字也已經消失，不要只是做半套，去年喊一個口號有一個宣示，結果今年又沒有繼續延續，今年有要繼續做嗎？內政部跟勞動部有要繼續做嗎？有要擴大推廣嗎？"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：我們後續會積極地合作。"],["王委員育敏：來，部長回答。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位，包括案例更多、滲透率更高，這部分我們願意參考委員的一些提醒來檢討，但是就目前看到的，可能數字上面，會再提供給委員有更新的數據……"],["王委員育敏：有更新是不是？你們可以直接告訴大家。"],["洪部長申翰：我們再提供給委員。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在最新的數字要不要跟大家報告？"],["洪部長申翰：可是我不會說這已經做到很到位，我們還是願意跟其他有相關經驗的國家做更澈底地學習。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼這麼重要？因為很多墜落事件大概就是死亡，不是重傷就是死亡，對家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的，所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心。另外，我要問你們職業安全訓練人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字？你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講還是產生一定的效果，為什麼反而你們的量能是下降的？去年是發生什麼事？為什麼整體的數字，反而無論是在各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分，都是呈現下降的趨勢？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降。"],["王委員育敏：數字有誤嗎？還是你們沒有更新？"],["林署長毓堂：對，跟委員報告，現在安全衛生教育的職類非常多有將近六十個職類，可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管，它是有上下在浮動，依照需求……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們沒有擴大，我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打擊年，你們所有包括工地現場的安全應該要擴大，你們職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大，但是看起來並沒有這樣的趨勢，我希望你們可以檢討。另外，有關於外籍移工職災人數其實在營建業也呈現人數增加的情況，有這樣的趨勢，你們現在有推一個移工的職安卡，我要問的是你們營建業的外籍移工取得職安卡的比例，因為在營建業是高風險，他們是不是都有取得職安卡才進來從事營建業？有沒有？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實移工的安全衛生教育訓練是我們的重點，現在臺灣職安卡目前為止大概有20萬人受訓，移工裡面大概有占兩萬多人。"],["王委員育敏：營建業裡面的移工有沒有都拿到職安卡？"],["林署長毓堂：我們目前跟很多跨部會合作，希望達到所有的移工都要拿到臺灣職安卡。"],["王委員育敏：就我掌握到數據，現在移工從事營建業大概超過4萬，拿到的比例大概只有2萬8,000，累積才2萬8,000代表還有一萬多人其實是沒有接受你們的訓練，但我覺得職安卡是好的，因為你們是用多國語言、讓移工可以理解的語言告訴他職業安全方面的知識，這個對於保障他們自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助，這個部分你們是不是可以儘快透過怎麼樣的方式，讓從事高風險營建業的移工可以得到職業安全的知識？"],["洪部長申翰：好。這部分我覺得是一個對的方向，我們怎麼樣更加碼進行，包括資源的投入、包括加速檢討，這部分我們會儘快地提出相關的計畫來擴大核發職安卡。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得保護外籍移工來臺灣工作，他們的人身安全、職業風險，給他們高度的保障我覺得是該做的事，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。謝謝王委員。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林淑芬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}}