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\"那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 462.682, \"end\": 462.802, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 462.802, \"end\": 462.982, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 462.982, \"end\": 463.182, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 463.182, \"end\": 463.863, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 463.863, \"end\": 463.983, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 463.983, \"end\": 464.283, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 464.283, \"end\": 464.503, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 464.503, \"end\": 465.124, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 465.124, \"end\": 465.304, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 465.304, \"end\": 465.424, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 783.284, \"end\": 783.945, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 783.945, \"end\": 784.285, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 784.285, \"end\": 784.725, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 784.725, \"end\": 784.945, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 784.945, \"end\": 785.166, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 785.166, \"end\": 785.186, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 785.186, \"end\": 785.406, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 785.406, \"end\": 785.486, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 785.486, \"end\": 785.546, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 785.546, \"end\": 785.626, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 785.626, \"end\": 785.646, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": 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\"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,213 --> 00:00:19,607\n主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好法務部那個謝副司長請\n\n2\n00:00:31,873 --> 00:00:48,741\n主委好法官好副市長好來我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好先就交到主委來主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在\n\n3\n00:00:50,336 --> 00:01:05,024\n因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合\n\n4\n00:01:05,484 --> 00:01:21,916\n那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以\n\n5\n00:01:26,181 --> 00:01:53,277\n再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子法官是不是這樣\n\n6\n00:01:55,029 --> 00:02:00,223\n毛法官不好意思因為我是民視廳的法官好了那個副市長法制司副市長\n\n7\n00:02:02,963 --> 00:02:28,649\n報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:32,095 --> 00:02:54,944\n就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的那主委請\n\n9\n00:02:57,489 --> 00:03:20,952\n所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行\n\n10\n00:03:22,413 --> 00:03:31,364\n這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能\n\n11\n00:03:32,625 --> 00:03:51,831\n有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了\n\n12\n00:03:53,571 --> 00:04:08,930\n還要裁定要扣押啊對所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對就是我們對於剛才\n\n13\n00:04:09,671 --> 00:04:24,083\n就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁\n\n14\n00:04:24,864 --> 00:04:44,960\n那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了\n\n15\n00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:57,065\n然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院\n\n16\n00:04:57,833 --> 00:05:18,756\n我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會\n\n17\n00:05:20,933 --> 00:05:43,023\n主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件\n\n18\n00:05:46,904 --> 00:06:11,419\n總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件\n\n19\n00:06:12,379 --> 00:06:40,459\n這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛對不對\n\n20\n00:06:41,929 --> 00:06:56,614\n對沒錯目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛是不是是的好那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是\n\n21\n00:06:59,515 --> 00:07:17,714\n報告委員感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好那有一個方法嘛就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢根據因有債務人資\n\n22\n00:07:19,095 --> 00:07:41,882\n居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛是不是這樣對沒錯我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝來往前彭主委所以呢我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦\n\n23\n00:07:42,682 --> 00:08:01,276\n那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢\n\n24\n00:08:02,037 --> 00:08:28,705\n主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝\n\n25\n00:08:31,141 --> 00:08:58,189\n副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵\n\n26\n00:08:58,869 --> 00:09:10,224\n我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛我要講的就是另外呢我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了\n\n27\n00:09:13,735 --> 00:09:35,227\n早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計\n\n28\n00:09:37,108 --> 00:09:51,418\n所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來\n\n29\n00:09:54,040 --> 00:10:23,246\n執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼\n\n30\n00:10:24,619 --> 00:10:35,332\n多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬\n\n31\n00:10:38,635 --> 00:10:51,300\n所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意\n\n32\n00:11:07,227 --> 00:11:27,097\n尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人\n\n33\n00:11:27,717 --> 00:11:53,682\n所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性\n\n34\n00:11:54,721 --> 00:12:05,955\n他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金\n\n35\n00:12:09,444 --> 00:12:26,352\n應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象\n\n36\n00:12:28,073 --> 00:12:50,096\n這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性\n\n37\n00:12:50,356 --> 00:13:05,866\n我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來\n\n38\n00:13:10,589 --> 00:13:39,386\n我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢\n\n39\n00:13:40,447 --> 00:13:47,514\n受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障\n\n40\n00:13:49,011 --> 00:14:14,905\n要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎\n\n41\n00:14:15,485 --> 00:14:20,251\n這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好謝謝主委謝謝副市長謝謝毛老闆好謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4213\t19607\t主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好 請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好 法務部那個謝副司長請\n31873\t48741\t主委好 法官好 副市長好來 我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好 先就交到主委來 主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在\n50336\t65024\t因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合\n65484\t81916\t那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以\n86181\t113277\t再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子 法官是不是這樣\n115029\t120223\t毛法官不好意思 因為我是民視廳的法官好了 那個副市長 法制司副市長\n122963\t148649\t報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎?\n152095\t174944\t就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的 那主委請\n177489\t200952\t所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行\n202413\t211364\t這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能\n212625\t231831\t有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了\n233571\t248930\t還要裁定要扣押啊對 所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是 所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對 就是我們對於剛才\n249671\t264083\t就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁\n264864\t284960\t那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了\n285620\t297065\t然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院\n297833\t318756\t我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會\n320933\t343023\t主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件\n346904\t371419\t總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件\n372379\t400459\t這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官 毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛 對不對\n401929\t416614\t對 沒錯 目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛 是不是是的好 那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是\n419515\t437714\t報告委員 感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好 那有一個方法嘛 就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢 根據因有債務人資\n439095\t461882\t居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛 是不是這樣對 沒錯 我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝 來往前 彭主委所以呢 我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦\n462682\t481276\t那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢\n482037\t508705\t主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝\n511141\t538189\t副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵\n538869\t550224\t我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛 我要講的就是另外呢 我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了\n553735\t575227\t早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計\n577108\t591418\t所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來\n594040\t623246\t執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼\n624619\t635332\t多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬\n638635\t651300\t所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意\n667227\t687097\t尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人\n687717\t713682\t所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性\n714721\t725955\t他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金\n729444\t746352\t應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象\n748073\t770096\t這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性\n770356\t785866\t我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來\n790589\t819386\t我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對 這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好 所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢\n820447\t827514\t受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障\n829011\t854905\t要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎\n855485\t860251\t這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好 謝謝主委 謝謝副市長 謝謝毛老闆好 謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘\n","txt":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好 請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好 法務部那個謝副司長請\n主委好 法官好 副市長好來 我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好 先就交到主委來 主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在\n因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合\n那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以\n再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子 法官是不是這樣\n毛法官不好意思 因為我是民視廳的法官好了 那個副市長 法制司副市長\n報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎?\n就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的 那主委請\n所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行\n這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能\n有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了\n還要裁定要扣押啊對 所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是 所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對 就是我們對於剛才\n就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁\n那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了\n然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院\n我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會\n主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件\n總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件\n這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官 毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛 對不對\n對 沒錯 目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛 是不是是的好 那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是\n報告委員 感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好 那有一個方法嘛 就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢 根據因有債務人資\n居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛 是不是這樣對 沒錯 我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝 來往前 彭主委所以呢 我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦\n那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢\n主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝\n副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵\n我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛 我要講的就是另外呢 我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了\n早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計\n所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來\n執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼\n多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬\n所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意\n尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人\n所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性\n他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金\n應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象\n這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性\n我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來\n我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對 這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好 所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢\n受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障\n要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎\n這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好 謝謝主委 謝謝副市長 謝謝毛老闆好 謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.213 --> 00:19.607\n主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好法務部那個謝副司長請\n\n00:31.873 --> 00:48.741\n主委好法官好副市長好來我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好先就交到主委來主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在\n\n00:50.336 --> 01:05.024\n因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合\n\n01:05.484 --> 01:21.916\n那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以\n\n01:26.181 --> 01:53.277\n再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子法官是不是這樣\n\n01:55.029 --> 02:00.223\n毛法官不好意思因為我是民視廳的法官好了那個副市長法制司副市長\n\n02:02.963 --> 02:28.649\n報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎?\n\n02:32.095 --> 02:54.944\n就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的那主委請\n\n02:57.489 --> 03:20.952\n所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行\n\n03:22.413 --> 03:31.364\n這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能\n\n03:32.625 --> 03:51.831\n有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了\n\n03:53.571 --> 04:08.930\n還要裁定要扣押啊對所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對就是我們對於剛才\n\n04:09.671 --> 04:24.083\n就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁\n\n04:24.864 --> 04:44.960\n那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了\n\n04:45.620 --> 04:57.065\n然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院\n\n04:57.833 --> 05:18.756\n我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會\n\n05:20.933 --> 05:43.023\n主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件\n\n05:46.904 --> 06:11.419\n總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件\n\n06:12.379 --> 06:40.459\n這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛對不對\n\n06:41.929 --> 06:56.614\n對沒錯目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛是不是是的好那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是\n\n06:59.515 --> 07:17.714\n報告委員感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好那有一個方法嘛就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢根據因有債務人資\n\n07:19.095 --> 07:41.882\n居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛是不是這樣對沒錯我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝來往前彭主委所以呢我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦\n\n07:42.682 --> 08:01.276\n那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢\n\n08:02.037 --> 08:28.705\n主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝\n\n08:31.141 --> 08:58.189\n副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵\n\n08:58.869 --> 09:10.224\n我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛我要講的就是另外呢我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了\n\n09:13.735 --> 09:35.227\n早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計\n\n09:37.108 --> 09:51.418\n所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來\n\n09:54.040 --> 10:23.246\n執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼\n\n10:24.619 --> 10:35.332\n多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬\n\n10:38.635 --> 10:51.300\n所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意\n\n11:07.227 --> 11:27.097\n尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人\n\n11:27.717 --> 11:53.682\n所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性\n\n11:54.721 --> 12:05.955\n他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金\n\n12:09.444 --> 12:26.352\n應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象\n\n12:28.073 --> 12:50.096\n這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性\n\n12:50.356 --> 13:05.866\n我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來\n\n13:10.589 --> 13:39.386\n我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢\n\n13:40.447 --> 13:47.514\n受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障\n\n13:49.011 --> 14:14.905\n要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎\n\n14:15.485 --> 14:20.251\n這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好謝謝主委謝謝副市長謝謝毛老闆好謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.213,"end":19.607,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好 請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好 法務部那個謝副司長請"},{"start":31.873,"end":48.741,"text":"主委好 法官好 副市長好來 我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好 先就交到主委來 主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在"},{"start":50.336,"end":65.024,"text":"因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合"},{"start":65.484,"end":81.916,"text":"那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以"},{"start":86.181,"end":113.277,"text":"再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子 法官是不是這樣"},{"start":115.029,"end":120.223,"text":"毛法官不好意思 因為我是民視廳的法官好了 那個副市長 法制司副市長"},{"start":122.963,"end":148.649,"text":"報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎?"},{"start":152.095,"end":174.944,"text":"就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的 那主委請"},{"start":177.489,"end":200.952,"text":"所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行"},{"start":202.413,"end":211.364,"text":"這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能"},{"start":212.625,"end":231.831,"text":"有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了"},{"start":233.571,"end":248.93,"text":"還要裁定要扣押啊對 所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是 所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對 就是我們對於剛才"},{"start":249.671,"end":264.083,"text":"就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁"},{"start":264.864,"end":284.96,"text":"那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了"},{"start":285.62,"end":297.065,"text":"然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院"},{"start":297.833,"end":318.756,"text":"我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會"},{"start":320.933,"end":343.023,"text":"主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件"},{"start":346.904,"end":371.419,"text":"總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件"},{"start":372.379,"end":400.459,"text":"這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官 毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛 對不對"},{"start":401.929,"end":416.614,"text":"對 沒錯 目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛 是不是是的好 那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是"},{"start":419.515,"end":437.714,"text":"報告委員 感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好 那有一個方法嘛 就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢 根據因有債務人資"},{"start":439.095,"end":461.882,"text":"居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛 是不是這樣對 沒錯 我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝 來往前 彭主委所以呢 我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦"},{"start":462.682,"end":481.276,"text":"那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢"},{"start":482.037,"end":508.705,"text":"主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝"},{"start":511.141,"end":538.189,"text":"副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵"},{"start":538.869,"end":550.224,"text":"我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛 我要講的就是另外呢 我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了"},{"start":553.735,"end":575.227,"text":"早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計"},{"start":577.108,"end":591.418,"text":"所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來"},{"start":594.04,"end":623.246,"text":"執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼"},{"start":624.619,"end":635.332,"text":"多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬"},{"start":638.635,"end":651.3,"text":"所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意"},{"start":667.227,"end":687.097,"text":"尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人"},{"start":687.717,"end":713.682,"text":"所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性"},{"start":714.721,"end":725.955,"text":"他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金"},{"start":729.444,"end":746.352,"text":"應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象"},{"start":748.073,"end":770.096,"text":"這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性"},{"start":770.356,"end":785.866,"text":"我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來"},{"start":790.589,"end":819.386,"text":"我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對 這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好 所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢"},{"start":820.447,"end":827.514,"text":"受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障"},{"start":829.011,"end":854.905,"text":"要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎"},{"start":855.485,"end":860.251,"text":"這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好 謝謝主委 謝謝副市長 謝謝毛老闆好 謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時32分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請彭主委、司法院毛法官及法務部謝副司長。"],["主席：好，請彭主委、司法院毛法官、法務部謝副司長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好、法官好、副司長好。我今天的標題是「單一標準免逐案判斷省案量，回歸屬性而非保單名稱認定」，先就教一下主委，昨天在院會的時候我向你請教，在談虛幣交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有分境內跟境外，對於境外實名制的部分，我有跟你請教，如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定，有沒有境外的虛幣交易所願意配合，您說只要有助於打詐的都你支持、都會去爭取。現在的問題昨天也跟你問過，現在也請教法務部跟司法院兩位代表，請問司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎？請法官跟副司長聽好，過去我們的實務上，阻斷詐騙是以在途金流來追錢為優先，法官跟副司長了解吧，今天一個實體犯罪，例如偷竊、搶奪，基本上我們一定有個罪犯、有個被害人，被害人因為這個犯罪行為而有財產損失，我們抓到這個犯人之後，把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得，然後才發一個扣押裁定，是不是這樣子？毛法官，是不是這樣？"],["毛法官彥程：報告，不好意思，因為我是民事廳的法官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那請副司長回答。"],["謝副司長志明：報告委員，在各式各樣的財產犯罪或者是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概是這樣嘛，傳統的……"],["謝副司長志明：只要是犯罪所得，我們大概會在查出金流之後向法院聲請扣押裁定，除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現在有一個問題，就是現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺，確定他被詐欺了，還沒有找到犯罪人，但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡，譬如他換成虛幣，這時候你們會向法院聲請扣押裁定嗎？會主張……"],["謝副司長志明：就算還沒找到被害人，只要能證明疑似是犯罪所得，事實上是可以聲請扣押的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說未來我們司法機關追錢為優先，確認詐款的路徑之後，就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣一個扣押裁定，是不是這樣？"],["謝副司長志明：報告委員，這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，因為這不是今天的本題，所以今天法務部跟司法院來列席的不是這個本題的對象，我昨天有請教主委，虛幣交易所未來可能會成為詐欺者常用的一個途徑，這樣一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入，金管會是不是可以協調法務部跟司法院來完成讓這樣一個樣態能夠執行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然，在我們的打詐團隊裡面，大家都是一起的啦，如果未來有這個需要，我們會透過那個平臺提出要求。不過剛才委員提到的這個部分，可能有幾個點是我們回去也要再思考過，第一個，在虛擬幣的世界裡面，其實國界沒那麼明確，就是在網路世界裡面。但是假設有一個具體的法人是受我們管轄或願意合作的，當然就變成具體了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這時候法院要裁定扣押啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以就是一定要有人配合，假如還牽涉到跨境的法人部分，那就真的要透過國際的合作了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時地發出這個扣押裁定嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就是要看我們司法實務上怎麼做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要去跟法務部及司法院協調。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，昨天在答復委員的時候也是，凡是有助於阻詐的措施，我們都要來想辦法來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的意思是說，請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力，不能只有靠我們行政機關，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們回到本題，這個是來自於2022年最高法院108年度台抗大字第897號民事裁定，裁定主文是「執行法院於必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約……」，是這樣的意思嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們來看看辛苦的過程，首先是在去年4月的時候，我在財政委員會的質詢時就提出來了，然後在4月29號的時候，我們聯合財委會的跨黨派委員召開了一個記者會，很快的，本席在5月10號就提出了保險法修法草案，因為那時候我是司委會的召委，所以我也排了一個專題報告，並在6月17號安排司委會去臺北地院考察，6月28號司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引。去年10月15號在屏東開地方說明會，到了今年3月13號，很快的，行政院就有一個院版送來審議，我們的召委也趕快排了一場公聽會。主委，謝謝，我們這一次的動作很快，一年的時間已經進入到修法了，首先給你一個肯定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們再往下看，回歸到當初的原因，當初爆發出來的冰山一角是什麼？是來自全國各地法院民事執行處受理債權人聲請執行標的，涉及到債務人對第三人之保險契約金錢債權的總件數有七十七萬多件，其中四分之三是法人，只有四分之一是自然人的金錢債權，而這四分之三的法人當中，銀行占三分之二，三分之一是資產管理公司，就是俗稱的討債公司，結果在那個時候，法院淪為為討債公司去幫忙催債，這當中核發的換價命令約四萬多件，這都是法院的負擔。","接下來我們的副司長跟法官就可以看到了，過去歷年每位法官所作出的平均裁定公布，2021年是60件、2022年是110件，最高峰就是在前年，大法庭裁定出來的有143件，現在又慢慢下降，如果單以2024年來看，是集中在臺北地院，是不是這樣子？民事庭毛法官，是不是這樣子？這是你們的痛嘛，對不對？"],["毛法官彥程：對，沒錯，目前臺北地院仍然是執行狀況最嚴重的地方。"],["鍾委員佳濱：螢幕上這張照片就是去年6月17號我們司法法制委員會去考察臺北地院的情況，連同仁們都貼了海報抗議啊。"],["毛法官彥程：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們受不了了嘛，是不是？"],["毛法官彥程：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問這個情況紓解了沒有？"],["毛法官彥程：報告委員，感謝委員在去年6月的時候前往臺北地院去了解實際上的狀況，在去年6月之後，司法院這邊有就臺北地院的這個狀況，應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況，只是沒有如同……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有一個方法嘛，本來我們的強制執行應由債務人之住、居所所在地之法院為之，我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在地的法院，而不是以保險公司所在地的臺北地院跟士林地院嘛，是不是這樣？"],["毛法官彥程：對，沒錯，我們透過去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則，然後擴大解釋，這個應由……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","彭主委，所以我們怎麼樣去減量是保險法修法當中考慮的程序經濟啦。我們來看現在的認定，其實前面幾位委員都說到了，最低生活費的標準要以哪一個為準？剛才有人主張，我也支持以全國最高的那一個為主，為什麼？這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而主張要向哪一個法院聲請執行，是不是這樣？主委，你是不是也接受如果我們統一標準就能減省法院的認定程序？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也有答復委員，我們是尊重，我們也持開放態度，我覺得這是一個滿好的解決方法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝你認為滿好的，我們會往這方面努力。其實保單解約金有類似的情況，我們也發現了在修法的過程當中，院版的部分是傾向以分別計算單筆解約金，而不是合併計算所有解約金來加總，請問一下毛法官，你們認為這樣有沒有助於我們法院在認定上的裁定？"],["毛法官彥程：行政院版的分別計算個別解約金是有助於執行的便利性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","彭主委，所以今天我們要說的是，修法的時候不是只有考量到法的原理、屬性，還要考量到未來執行上的程序經濟。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來往下看，其實大的問題，過去我們民眾感受到的痛是什麼？就是殺雞取卵，債務人欠的錢跟相對的保單損失利益是不成比例，所以我們才主張什麼？主張介入權嘛！我還要講的就是，另外我們要預防的狀況是很多的債務人已經高齡了，他早年時投保的保單一旦解約，他失去的保障就沒有辦法再拿回來，這指的是傷害險跟健康險。另外一個就是說，他早年幫他的子女投保，如果被強制執行了，他的子女（受益人）會失去請求保險金的權益，所以怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續享受保險保障，這是我們的目的嘛。主委，請問這時候我們要怎麼去進行與設計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以當時我們引入介入權的概念就是，其實當時的保險法裡面就有一個條文與利害關係人得代繳保費的精神很類似，它的意思是說，如果這個利害關人主張契約應該繼續的話，你可以執行一些動作讓這個契約進行，包括像介入權，假設我是受益人，我覺得這張保單對我有重大利益，我當然可以代償，以後我取代他成為要保人，終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債權人所追償。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我們來看一下保險法，你說第十六條是這樣規定的，為什麼現在院版第一百二十三條之二能主張的人比保險法規定有保險利益的人還要再多一些些？就是依此而推演的介入權人多了兄弟姐妹，是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：多了我們保險法第十六條家屬以外的親屬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：家屬以外的親屬？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為保險法所謂有保險利益是以家屬為基礎，不以親屬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以也就是說，家屬是以共同生活為目的而同居者……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，就不限於血緣關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多了不是家屬的親屬，是多了兄弟姐妹，不以共同居住為限？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問思考的理由是什麼？為什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個能夠擴大、能夠終止這個債權債務關係，幫他清償，維繫這個保險價值的範圍加大，當然有人擔心會有道德風險的問題，因此我們前面又加了一個經過要被保險人的同意，尊重到保險法，我想這就可以解決這個問題，擴大範圍這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，後續有一個程序上的問題，請你們修法後去思考一下，不只一個人要行使的時候誰先誰後？就是介入權的時候，這個在目前的法條上，我們沒有辦法去定義，後續在我們執行實務上的配套……"],["彭主任委員金隆：實務上可以來做，因為我們現在的要保人就只會一個人啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這個配套要跟著我們保險法修訂一起加進來，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個在實務作業的時候，我們會請保險局在這邊訂定一些規範來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後一題就是大家問到的，也就是有些委員的版本中有規定的小額終老保險，因為我的標題是希望回歸保險的屬性，而不是保險商品的名稱。請問一下，目前小額終老保險包含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實小額終老保險就是一個限定額度的終身壽險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：限定額度的終身壽險，它是生存險還是死亡險？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是以死亡險為主，死亡給付為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可是有的有祝壽金耶，這是生存險吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：小額終老保險應該是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是一個純粹的終身險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那失能給付？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它有完全失能給付，就等同經濟死亡的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以到底小額終老保險適不適合依照保險法的精神排除，不得作為金錢債務強制執行的對象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們經過公聽會以後，我們也覺得，假設社會有共識，認為這是需要被排除的，我們也尊重，不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱來做排除。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我希望未來在我們的修法過程當中，不是以商品名稱來定義，而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，這樣才有含括性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我希望主委多多強調你的生存險、死亡險到底是屬於產險性質的損害填補，還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果，清楚的將保單的本質做判斷，因為要法庭來做這樣的判斷，不是他們的專業上所應為。所以未來金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行，這部分的說明是不是在立法說明當中有更詳細、明確的補充？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個沒問題，其實未來執行的時候，各位可以看到，其中有一個很重要的環節是壽險公會，由壽險公會做一個認定，事實上可以做很清楚的認定，因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以，毛法官知道了，未來你們不用自己判斷，你們只要函詢壽險公會、金管會或保險局，就可以得到認定了，那麼大家也不用想辦法去……因為我很擔心我們本來是要保障要保人的債務人，怕的是一些想要避債的、存心有這樣動機的人去買保險公司的逃債商品。現在很多保險公司宣傳這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行，不可以這樣子！我們希望金管會趕快公布，也嚴格審查，不得讓保險公司以可以避債的方式來做保單的設計跟宣傳，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們在內控內稽制度上會來做一個設控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委，謝謝副司長，謝謝毛法官。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。顏委員質詢結束以後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}}