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{\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 205.024, \"end\": 205.044, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 225.663, \"end\": 227.524, \"text\": \"營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 225.663, \"end\": 225.763, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 225.763, \"end\": 225.803, \"score\": 0.37}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 225.803, \"end\": 225.823, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 225.823, \"end\": 225.843, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 225.843, \"end\": 225.943, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 225.943, \"end\": 225.963, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 225.963, \"end\": 225.983, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 225.983, \"end\": 226.003, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"何\", 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730.288, \"end\": 730.448, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 730.448, \"end\": 730.889, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 730.889, \"end\": 731.73, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 731.73, \"end\": 732.53, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 732.53, \"end\": 732.65, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 732.65, \"end\": 733.051, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 733.051, \"end\": 733.311, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 733.311, \"end\": 734.092, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 734.092, \"end\": 734.232, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 734.232, \"end\": 734.392, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 734.392, \"end\": 734.552, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 734.552, \"end\": 734.652, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 734.652, \"end\": 735.093, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 735.093, \"end\": 735.433, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 735.433, \"end\": 736.434, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"冷\", \"start\": 736.434, \"end\": 737.495, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"傅\", \"start\": 737.495, \"end\": 738.236, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 738.236, \"end\": 738.376, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 738.376, \"end\": 738.496, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 738.496, \"end\": 738.636, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 738.636, \"end\": 739.177, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"繕\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 739.177, \"end\": 739.817, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 739.817, \"end\": 740.758, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 740.758, \"end\": 740.999, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 740.999, \"end\": 741.179, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 741.179, \"end\": 742.38, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"和\", \"start\": 742.38, \"end\": 742.62, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 742.62, \"end\": 743.0, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"繕\"}, {\"word\": \"冷\", \"start\": 743.0, \"end\": 743.481, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 743.481, \"end\": 743.621, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"亡\", \"start\": 743.621, \"end\": 745.042, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 745.042, \"end\": 745.183, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"亡\", \"start\": 745.183, \"end\": 745.463, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 745.463, \"end\": 745.623, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 745.623, \"end\": 746.844, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 746.844, \"end\": 747.265, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 747.265, \"end\": 747.625, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 747.625, \"end\": 748.045, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"墜\"}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 748.045, \"end\": 748.786, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 748.786, \"end\": 748.966, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"亡\", \"start\": 748.966, \"end\": 748.986, \"score\": 0.545}]}, {\"start\": 749.987, \"end\": 762.078, \"text\": \"所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 749.987, \"end\": 750.127, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 750.127, \"end\": 750.227, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": 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我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 1721.781, \"end\": 1722.001, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 1722.001, \"end\": 1722.241, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1722.241, \"end\": 1722.461, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 1722.461, \"end\": 1722.641, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1722.641, \"end\": 1722.841, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1722.841, \"end\": 1723.882, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1723.882, \"end\": 1724.462, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1724.462, \"end\": 1724.662, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1724.662, \"end\": 1725.502, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1725.502, \"end\": 1725.702, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 1725.702, \"end\": 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\"高\", \"start\": 1729.204, \"end\": 1729.424, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1729.424, \"end\": 1729.884, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 1729.884, \"end\": 1730.124, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 1730.124, \"end\": 1730.304, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 1730.304, \"end\": 1730.424, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1730.424, \"end\": 1730.604, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1730.604, \"end\": 1730.724, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1730.724, \"end\": 1730.884, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 1730.884, \"end\": 1731.044, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 1731.044, \"end\": 1731.485, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1731.485, \"end\": 1731.885, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 1731.885, \"end\": 1732.005, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1732.005, \"end\": 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1736.626, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"a\", \"start\": 1736.626, \"end\": 1736.766, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"s\", \"start\": 1736.766, \"end\": 1736.786, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"y\", \"start\": 1736.786, \"end\": 1736.806, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 1738.487, \"end\": 1767.147, \"text\": \"如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1738.487, \"end\": 1738.667, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1738.667, \"end\": 1738.787, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1738.787, \"end\": 1739.087, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 1739.087, \"end\": 1739.248, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"亡\", \"start\": 1739.248, \"end\": 1739.428, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1739.428, \"end\": 1739.668, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 1739.668, \"end\": 1740.168, 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1804.095, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1804.095, \"end\": 1804.375, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1804.375, \"end\": 1804.495, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1804.495, \"end\": 1804.815, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1804.815, \"end\": 1804.915, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1804.915, \"end\": 1805.015, \"score\": 0.628}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1805.015, \"end\": 1805.196, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1805.196, \"end\": 1805.316, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1805.316, \"end\": 1805.436, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 1805.436, \"end\": 1805.696, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1805.696, \"end\": 1806.016, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1806.016, \"end\": 1806.156, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1806.156, \"end\": 1806.256, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1806.256, \"end\": 1806.396, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 1806.396, \"end\": 1806.877, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1806.877, \"end\": 1807.217, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"附\", \"start\": 1807.217, \"end\": 1807.437, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1807.437, \"end\": 1807.657, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1807.657, \"end\": 1807.817, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1807.817, \"end\": 1807.917, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1807.917, \"end\": 1808.718, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1808.718, \"end\": 1809.158, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1809.158, \"end\": 1809.238, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1809.238, \"end\": 1809.858, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1809.858, \"end\": 1809.878, \"score\": 0.04}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,574 --> 00:00:09,874\n謝謝主席請紅部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,153 --> 00:00:38,832\n部長你好大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡\n\n3\n00:00:39,753 --> 00:00:48,199\n比你們原定目標68人還高出很多很多然後呢從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命佔所有...抱歉還沒還沒OK\n\n4\n00:01:05,290 --> 00:01:30,716\n就是歷年的這個最弱的植栽件數奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個\n\n5\n00:01:34,237 --> 00:01:56,505\n發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天也有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成\n\n6\n00:01:57,125 --> 00:02:23,563\n六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計喔83個去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練\n\n7\n00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:48,881\n包括建築工程土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑口號口號\n\n8\n00:02:54,434 --> 00:03:13,448\n你們說在最弱打擊年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不你不覺得這很荒謬嗎部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦\n\n9\n00:03:14,557 --> 00:03:25,044\n你是最弱防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼\n\n10\n00:03:45,663 --> 00:03:47,524\n營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張\n\n11\n00:04:06,083 --> 00:04:18,794\n顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核\n\n12\n00:04:19,514 --> 00:04:26,656\n跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後\n\n13\n00:04:48,123 --> 00:04:55,331\n阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔\n\n14\n00:05:02,632 --> 00:05:17,384\n那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎\n\n15\n00:05:21,142 --> 00:05:32,369\n部長法治病就是這樣寫僱主有責任勞工有義務但都沒有人在做死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬\n\n16\n00:05:38,072 --> 00:05:53,738\n你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證現在換你了啦輸定時不知道沒辦法啦\n\n17\n00:06:06,887 --> 00:06:29,292\n這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高\n\n18\n00:06:30,449 --> 00:06:39,013\n勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個\n\n19\n00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:07,525\n觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢\n\n20\n00:07:09,993 --> 00:07:27,371\n這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因\n\n21\n00:07:31,255 --> 00:07:36,900\n有一點改一下我們也要所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下誘因就是雇主的工資照顧我們也要來提高我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因這是我們現在你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主雇主如果願意付薪水讓勞工去上課\n\n22\n00:07:56,438 --> 00:08:24,622\n勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程不是要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦\n\n23\n00:08:25,595 --> 00:08:53,540\n不要講那一些啦有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的使出的時間又金錢就花自己的錢而這個跟我們職業安全率不會花到勞工自己的錢\n\n24\n00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:57,443\n只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則\n\n25\n00:09:15,599 --> 00:09:25,143\n職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程\n\n26\n00:09:40,510 --> 00:09:44,295\n訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管\n\n27\n00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:04,136\n沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管\n\n28\n00:10:13,024 --> 00:10:27,034\n事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的\n\n29\n00:10:37,021 --> 00:10:48,584\n你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望\n\n30\n00:10:57,307 --> 00:11:11,333\n每一個僱主業者都要能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的更不要講其他重傷重災的\n\n31\n00:11:17,321 --> 00:11:39,031\n是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個\n\n32\n00:11:40,111 --> 00:11:51,936\n要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線\n\n33\n00:12:10,148 --> 00:12:28,986\n你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡\n\n34\n00:12:29,987 --> 00:12:42,078\n所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣修冷氣高空墜落滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視那你們做了什麼\n\n35\n00:12:51,483 --> 00:12:55,808\n我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是\n\n36\n00:13:12,509 --> 00:13:20,455\n我你沒有講的我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧現在舊的建築占99%那是新設的建築新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總諮詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九\n\n37\n00:13:33,766 --> 00:13:45,662\n都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼\n\n38\n00:13:47,984 --> 00:14:09,270\n你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提到很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講來你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們\n\n39\n00:14:12,472 --> 00:14:22,464\n你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我告訴你你都沒想到自營業者\n\n40\n00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:47,730\n那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡路整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎\n\n41\n00:14:49,281 --> 00:14:59,971\n委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬\n\n42\n00:15:04,451 --> 00:15:24,582\n要專案去處理我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千五千或八千的這個危險加急各位啊部長啊\n\n43\n00:15:26,704 --> 00:15:32,487\n交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修又就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的這個冷氣空調\n\n44\n00:15:55,401 --> 00:16:00,523\n你願意嗎署長你願意嗎部長你願意嗎可是他沒有辦法耶他必須要耶沒有安全帶沒有扣環沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點通通都沒有耶怎麼辦\n\n45\n00:16:19,608 --> 00:16:32,669\n阿你為了說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的那舊的怎麼辦\n\n46\n00:16:33,985 --> 00:16:58,217\n通通都沒有那我再跟你講喔這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜\n\n47\n00:17:01,909 --> 00:17:12,406\n依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足\n\n48\n00:17:15,647 --> 00:17:36,361\n這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎\n\n49\n00:17:40,203 --> 00:17:51,441\n所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主\n\n50\n00:17:54,178 --> 00:18:12,761\n雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後\n\n51\n00:18:13,982 --> 00:18:25,671\n管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是\n\n52\n00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:52,701\n很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的\n\n53\n00:18:53,762 --> 00:19:05,271\n這個植栽預防的意識這個就說明了教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個\n\n54\n00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:34,313\n其實歷年的職災案例分析發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落大家觀音都一樣像是施工架水平支撐模板支撐鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含\n\n55\n00:19:35,053 --> 00:19:42,061\n這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移\n\n56\n00:19:57,798 --> 00:20:14,010\n然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到\n\n57\n00:20:24,649 --> 00:20:46,595\n即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有\n\n58\n00:20:47,455 --> 00:20:58,687\n有賠償和補償的連帶責任但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以有時候就付一點錢但是我們意思是說這個問題知識體大那我現在要跟你講有時候就是你看一下這個圖\n\n59\n00:21:10,462 --> 00:21:37,782\n你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年\n\n60\n00:21:38,763 --> 00:21:52,659\n其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多\n\n61\n00:21:54,147 --> 00:22:22,548\n那可是這有沒有影響這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題如果雇主你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主你在乎植栽的預防\n\n62\n00:22:23,869 --> 00:22:49,326\n那會放任你的勞工這樣子做中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故職災的風險就這樣子一直提高上去嗎部長你對於這個照片你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況這不是特例你到立法院去附近中午休息就是這樣子普遍的狀況隨便拍都有\n\n63\n00:22:50,492 --> 00:23:09,344\n部長你做個感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任如果雇主真的在乎那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育安全教育和訓練嗎\n\n64\n00:23:11,229 --> 00:23:38,283\n如果政府做不到然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAPSAFE檢舉挽救生命你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命\n\n65\n00:23:41,189 --> 00:23:41,949\n他從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給他簡單快速的\n\n66\n00:23:58,086 --> 00:24:22,699\n你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过联邦政府网站的网页吗?为了开始,请选择这个链接,或检查这个QR码,你能够报告各种各样的问题,例如职业法规则,职业安全和健康规则或缺失,非法职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或�\n\n67\n00:24:24,127 --> 00:24:29,459\n例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。\n\n68\n00:24:31,783 --> 00:24:54,499\n您也可以通过这个链接直接到同一页去报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作案是当一个职员在工作上执行一项任务,对他们的健康或安全的威胁,或当工作室的状况可能会造成伤害。这可以包括不被接受安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护导致的旅行伤害。\n\n69\n00:24:56,664 --> 00:25:01,388\n好我就要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高空墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動\n\n70\n00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:30,072\n然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報雇主有什麼責任?雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道其實我們我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念這個概念\n\n71\n00:25:44,496 --> 00:26:11,476\n當勞工我現在講這僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引\n\n72\n00:26:12,731 --> 00:26:20,369\n那我要講這個這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權退避權\n\n73\n00:26:23,013 --> 00:26:44,498\n我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色\n\n74\n00:26:45,538 --> 00:27:10,673\n人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片按說明為職災預防每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償\n\n75\n00:27:12,455 --> 00:27:31,364\n所以在發生前要及時上傳及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講如果政府做不到那你就給我們一個網頁\n\n76\n00:27:33,025 --> 00:27:52,382\n讓雇主也來勞工也來全民大家一起來降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎部長可以評估一下嗎好謝謝評估一下只是評估一下我還沒再問你一個\n\n77\n00:27:57,806 --> 00:28:01,688\n評估完之後一個月的回報這樣好嗎蔣萬安市長他說以後台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強\n\n78\n00:28:21,078 --> 00:28:39,078\n沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了\n\n79\n00:28:41,781 --> 00:28:56,806\n該停工的尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷的我再講這個我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎\n\n80\n00:28:58,487 --> 00:29:27,147\n如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長\n\n81\n00:29:28,991 --> 00:29:51,113\n跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均啊\n\n82\n00:29:52,728 --> 00:30:09,878\n一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好謝謝林委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9574\t9874\t謝謝主席 請紅部長\n18153\t38832\t部長你好 大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年 死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年 去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡\n39753\t48199\t比你們原定目標68人 還高出很多很多然後呢 從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命 佔所有...抱歉 還沒 還沒 OK\n65290\t90716\t就是歷年的這個最弱的植栽件數奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個\n94237\t116505\t發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天也有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成\n117125\t143563\t六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計喔83個 去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練\n145236\t168881\t包括建築工程 土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡 去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑 口號 口號\n174434\t193448\t你們說在最弱打擊年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不 你不覺得這很荒謬嗎 部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦\n194557\t205044\t你是最弱 防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼\n225663\t227524\t營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張\n246083\t258794\t顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核\n259514\t266656\t跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後\n288123\t295331\t阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法 職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔\n302632\t317384\t那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎\n321142\t332369\t部長 法治病就是這樣寫 僱主有責任 勞工有義務但都沒有人在做 死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題 你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬\n338072\t353738\t你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是 這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證 現在換你了啦輸定時不知道 沒辦法啦\n366887\t389292\t這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高\n390449\t399013\t勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個\n416320\t427525\t觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢\n429993\t447371\t這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因\n451255\t456900\t有一點改一下 我們也要 所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下 誘因就是雇主的工資照顧我們也要來提高 我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因這是我們現在 你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主 雇主如果願意付薪水 讓勞工去上課\n476438\t504622\t勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是 耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程不是要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦\n505595\t533540\t不要講那一些啦 有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡 我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的 使出的時間又金錢就花自己的錢而這個跟我們職業安全率 不會花到勞工自己的錢\n534460\t537443\t只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則\n555599\t565143\t職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導 紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程\n580510\t584295\t訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管\n597990\t604136\t沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管\n613024\t627034\t事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的\n637021\t648584\t你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望\n657307\t671333\t每一個僱主業者都要能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的 更不要講其他重傷重災的\n677321\t699031\t是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個\n700111\t711936\t要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線\n730148\t748986\t你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡\n749987\t762078\t所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼\n771483\t775808\t我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是\n792509\t800455\t我 你沒有講的 我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧 現在舊的建築占99%那是新設的建築 新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總諮詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九\n813766\t825662\t都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼\n827984\t849270\t你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提到很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講來你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們\n852472\t862464\t你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我告訴你你都沒想到自營業者\n869400\t887730\t那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡路整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎\n889281\t899971\t委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬\n904451\t924582\t要專案去處理我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千五千或八千的這個危險加急各位啊部長啊\n926704\t932487\t交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修又就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的這個冷氣空調\n955401\t960523\t你願意嗎 署長你願意嗎 部長你願意嗎可是他沒有辦法耶 他必須要耶沒有安全帶 沒有扣環 沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點 沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點 通通都沒有耶怎麼辦\n979608\t992669\t阿你為了說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的 那舊的怎麼辦\n993985\t1018217\t通通都沒有那我再跟你講喔這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜\n1021909\t1032406\t依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足\n1035647\t1056361\t這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做 都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎\n1060203\t1071441\t所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主\n1074178\t1092761\t雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後\n1093982\t1105671\t管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是\n1108640\t1132701\t很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的\n1133762\t1145271\t這個植栽預防的意識這個就說明了教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個\n1152316\t1174313\t其實歷年的職災案例分析 發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落 大家觀音都一樣像是施工架 水平支撐 模板支撐 鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含\n1175053\t1182061\t這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移\n1197798\t1214010\t然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到\n1224649\t1246595\t即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有\n1247455\t1258687\t有賠償和補償的連帶責任但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以有時候就付一點錢但是我們意思是說這個問題知識體大那我現在要跟你講有時候就是你看一下這個圖\n1270462\t1297782\t你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年\n1298763\t1312659\t其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多\n1314147\t1342548\t那可是這有沒有影響這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題如果雇主你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主你在乎植栽的預防\n1343869\t1369326\t那會放任你的勞工這樣子做 中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工 然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故 職災的風險 就這樣子一直提高上去嗎部長 你對於這個照片 你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況 這不是特例你到立法院去 附近中午休息就是這樣子 普遍的狀況 隨便拍都有\n1370492\t1389344\t部長你做個感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任如果雇主真的在乎那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育安全教育和訓練嗎\n1391229\t1418283\t如果政府做不到然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAP SAFE檢舉挽救生命你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命\n1421189\t1421949\t他從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給他簡單快速的\n1438086\t1462699\t你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过联邦政府网站的网页吗?为了开始,请选择这个链接,或检查这个QR码,你能够报告各种各样的问题,例如职业法规则,职业安全和健康规则或缺失,非法职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或�\n1464127\t1469459\t例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。\n1471783\t1494499\t您也可以通过这个链接直接到同一页去报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作案是当一个职员在工作上执行一项任务,对他们的健康或安全的威胁,或当工作室的状况可能会造成伤害。这可以包括不被接受安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护导致的旅行伤害。\n1496664\t1501388\t好 我就要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高空墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動\n1515180\t1530072\t然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報雇主有什麼責任?雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道其實我們我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念這個概念\n1544496\t1571476\t當勞工 我現在講這僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照 然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引\n1572731\t1580369\t那我要講這個 這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權 退避權\n1583013\t1604498\t我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色\n1605538\t1630673\t人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片按說明為職災預防 每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前 我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償\n1632455\t1651364\t所以在發生前要及時上傳 及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例 這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來 降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講 如果政府做不到 那你就給我們一個網頁\n1653025\t1672382\t讓雇主也來 勞工也來 全民大家一起來降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦 保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎 部長可以評估一下嗎好 謝謝 評估一下 只是評估一下我還沒再問你一個\n1677806\t1681688\t評估完之後一個月的回報這樣好嗎蔣萬安市長他說以後台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強\n1701078\t1719078\t沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了\n1721781\t1736806\t該停工的 尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷的我再講這個 我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎\n1738487\t1767147\t如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長\n1768991\t1791113\t跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均啊\n1792728\t1809878\t一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好 那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請紅部長\n部長你好 大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年 死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年 去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡\n比你們原定目標68人 還高出很多很多然後呢 從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命 佔所有...抱歉 還沒 還沒 OK\n就是歷年的這個最弱的植栽件數奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個\n發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天也有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成\n六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計喔83個 去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練\n包括建築工程 土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡 去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑 口號 口號\n你們說在最弱打擊年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不 你不覺得這很荒謬嗎 部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦\n你是最弱 防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼\n營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張\n顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核\n跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後\n阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法 職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔\n那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎\n部長 法治病就是這樣寫 僱主有責任 勞工有義務但都沒有人在做 死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題 你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬\n你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是 這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證 現在換你了啦輸定時不知道 沒辦法啦\n這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高\n勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個\n觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢\n這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因\n有一點改一下 我們也要 所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下 誘因就是雇主的工資照顧我們也要來提高 我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因這是我們現在 你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主 雇主如果願意付薪水 讓勞工去上課\n勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是 耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程不是要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦\n不要講那一些啦 有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡 我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的 使出的時間又金錢就花自己的錢而這個跟我們職業安全率 不會花到勞工自己的錢\n只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則\n職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導 紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程\n訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管\n沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管\n事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的\n你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望\n每一個僱主業者都要能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的 更不要講其他重傷重災的\n是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個\n要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線\n你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡\n所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼\n我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是\n我 你沒有講的 我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧 現在舊的建築占99%那是新設的建築 新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總諮詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九\n都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼\n你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提到很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講來你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們\n你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我告訴你你都沒想到自營業者\n那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡路整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎\n委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬\n要專案去處理我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千五千或八千的這個危險加急各位啊部長啊\n交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修又就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的這個冷氣空調\n你願意嗎 署長你願意嗎 部長你願意嗎可是他沒有辦法耶 他必須要耶沒有安全帶 沒有扣環 沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點 沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點 通通都沒有耶怎麼辦\n阿你為了說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的 那舊的怎麼辦\n通通都沒有那我再跟你講喔這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜\n依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足\n這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做 都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎\n所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主\n雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後\n管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是\n很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的\n這個植栽預防的意識這個就說明了教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個\n其實歷年的職災案例分析 發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落 大家觀音都一樣像是施工架 水平支撐 模板支撐 鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含\n這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移\n然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到\n即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有\n有賠償和補償的連帶責任但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以有時候就付一點錢但是我們意思是說這個問題知識體大那我現在要跟你講有時候就是你看一下這個圖\n你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年\n其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多\n那可是這有沒有影響這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題如果雇主你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主你在乎植栽的預防\n那會放任你的勞工這樣子做 中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工 然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故 職災的風險 就這樣子一直提高上去嗎部長 你對於這個照片 你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況 這不是特例你到立法院去 附近中午休息就是這樣子 普遍的狀況 隨便拍都有\n部長你做個感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任如果雇主真的在乎那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育安全教育和訓練嗎\n如果政府做不到然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAP SAFE檢舉挽救生命你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命\n他從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給他簡單快速的\n你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过联邦政府网站的网页吗?为了开始,请选择这个链接,或检查这个QR码,你能够报告各种各样的问题,例如职业法规则,职业安全和健康规则或缺失,非法职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或�\n例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。\n您也可以通过这个链接直接到同一页去报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作案是当一个职员在工作上执行一项任务,对他们的健康或安全的威胁,或当工作室的状况可能会造成伤害。这可以包括不被接受安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护导致的旅行伤害。\n好 我就要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高空墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動\n然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報雇主有什麼責任?雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道其實我們我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念這個概念\n當勞工 我現在講這僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照 然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引\n那我要講這個 這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權 退避權\n我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色\n人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片按說明為職災預防 每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前 我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償\n所以在發生前要及時上傳 及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例 這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來 降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講 如果政府做不到 那你就給我們一個網頁\n讓雇主也來 勞工也來 全民大家一起來降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦 保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎 部長可以評估一下嗎好 謝謝 評估一下 只是評估一下我還沒再問你一個\n評估完之後一個月的回報這樣好嗎蔣萬安市長他說以後台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強\n沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了\n該停工的 尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷的我再講這個 我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎\n如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長\n跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均啊\n一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好 那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.574 --> 00:09.874\n謝謝主席請紅部長\n\n00:18.153 --> 00:38.832\n部長你好大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡\n\n00:39.753 --> 00:48.199\n比你們原定目標68人還高出很多很多然後呢從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命佔所有...抱歉還沒還沒OK\n\n01:05.290 --> 01:30.716\n就是歷年的這個最弱的植栽件數奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個\n\n01:34.237 --> 01:56.505\n發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天也有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成\n\n01:57.125 --> 02:23.563\n六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計喔83個去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練\n\n02:25.236 --> 02:48.881\n包括建築工程土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑口號口號\n\n02:54.434 --> 03:13.448\n你們說在最弱打擊年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不你不覺得這很荒謬嗎部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦\n\n03:14.557 --> 03:25.044\n你是最弱防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼\n\n03:45.663 --> 03:47.524\n營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張\n\n04:06.083 --> 04:18.794\n顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核\n\n04:19.514 --> 04:26.656\n跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後\n\n04:48.123 --> 04:55.331\n阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔\n\n05:02.632 --> 05:17.384\n那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎\n\n05:21.142 --> 05:32.369\n部長法治病就是這樣寫僱主有責任勞工有義務但都沒有人在做死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬\n\n05:38.072 --> 05:53.738\n你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證現在換你了啦輸定時不知道沒辦法啦\n\n06:06.887 --> 06:29.292\n這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高\n\n06:30.449 --> 06:39.013\n勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個\n\n06:56.320 --> 07:07.525\n觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢\n\n07:09.993 --> 07:27.371\n這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因\n\n07:31.255 --> 07:36.900\n有一點改一下我們也要所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下誘因就是雇主的工資照顧我們也要來提高我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因這是我們現在你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主雇主如果願意付薪水讓勞工去上課\n\n07:56.438 --> 08:24.622\n勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程不是要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦\n\n08:25.595 --> 08:53.540\n不要講那一些啦有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的使出的時間又金錢就花自己的錢而這個跟我們職業安全率不會花到勞工自己的錢\n\n08:54.460 --> 08:57.443\n只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則\n\n09:15.599 --> 09:25.143\n職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程\n\n09:40.510 --> 09:44.295\n訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管\n\n09:57.990 --> 10:04.136\n沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管\n\n10:13.024 --> 10:27.034\n事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的\n\n10:37.021 --> 10:48.584\n你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望\n\n10:57.307 --> 11:11.333\n每一個僱主業者都要能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的更不要講其他重傷重災的\n\n11:17.321 --> 11:39.031\n是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個\n\n11:40.111 --> 11:51.936\n要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線\n\n12:10.148 --> 12:28.986\n你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡\n\n12:29.987 --> 12:42.078\n所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣修冷氣高空墜落滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視那你們做了什麼\n\n12:51.483 --> 12:55.808\n我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是\n\n13:12.509 --> 13:20.455\n我你沒有講的我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧現在舊的建築占99%那是新設的建築新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總諮詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九\n\n13:33.766 --> 13:45.662\n都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼\n\n13:47.984 --> 14:09.270\n你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提到很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講來你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們\n\n14:12.472 --> 14:22.464\n你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我告訴你你都沒想到自營業者\n\n14:29.400 --> 14:47.730\n那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡路整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎\n\n14:49.281 --> 14:59.971\n委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬\n\n15:04.451 --> 15:24.582\n要專案去處理我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千五千或八千的這個危險加急各位啊部長啊\n\n15:26.704 --> 15:32.487\n交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修又就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的這個冷氣空調\n\n15:55.401 --> 16:00.523\n你願意嗎署長你願意嗎部長你願意嗎可是他沒有辦法耶他必須要耶沒有安全帶沒有扣環沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點通通都沒有耶怎麼辦\n\n16:19.608 --> 16:32.669\n阿你為了說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的那舊的怎麼辦\n\n16:33.985 --> 16:58.217\n通通都沒有那我再跟你講喔這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜\n\n17:01.909 --> 17:12.406\n依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足\n\n17:15.647 --> 17:36.361\n這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎\n\n17:40.203 --> 17:51.441\n所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主\n\n17:54.178 --> 18:12.761\n雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後\n\n18:13.982 --> 18:25.671\n管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是\n\n18:28.640 --> 18:52.701\n很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的\n\n18:53.762 --> 19:05.271\n這個植栽預防的意識這個就說明了教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個\n\n19:12.316 --> 19:34.313\n其實歷年的職災案例分析發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落大家觀音都一樣像是施工架水平支撐模板支撐鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含\n\n19:35.053 --> 19:42.061\n這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移\n\n19:57.798 --> 20:14.010\n然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到\n\n20:24.649 --> 20:46.595\n即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有\n\n20:47.455 --> 20:58.687\n有賠償和補償的連帶責任但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以有時候就付一點錢但是我們意思是說這個問題知識體大那我現在要跟你講有時候就是你看一下這個圖\n\n21:10.462 --> 21:37.782\n你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年\n\n21:38.763 --> 21:52.659\n其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多\n\n21:54.147 --> 22:22.548\n那可是這有沒有影響這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題如果雇主你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主你在乎植栽的預防\n\n22:23.869 --> 22:49.326\n那會放任你的勞工這樣子做中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故職災的風險就這樣子一直提高上去嗎部長你對於這個照片你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況這不是特例你到立法院去附近中午休息就是這樣子普遍的狀況隨便拍都有\n\n22:50.492 --> 23:09.344\n部長你做個感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任如果雇主真的在乎那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育安全教育和訓練嗎\n\n23:11.229 --> 23:38.283\n如果政府做不到然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAPSAFE檢舉挽救生命你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命\n\n23:41.189 --> 23:41.949\n他從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給他簡單快速的\n\n23:58.086 --> 24:22.699\n你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过联邦政府网站的网页吗?为了开始,请选择这个链接,或检查这个QR码,你能够报告各种各样的问题,例如职业法规则,职业安全和健康规则或缺失,非法职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或�\n\n24:24.127 --> 24:29.459\n例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。\n\n24:31.783 --> 24:54.499\n您也可以通过这个链接直接到同一页去报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作案是当一个职员在工作上执行一项任务,对他们的健康或安全的威胁,或当工作室的状况可能会造成伤害。这可以包括不被接受安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护导致的旅行伤害。\n\n24:56.664 --> 25:01.388\n好我就要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高空墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動\n\n25:15.180 --> 25:30.072\n然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報雇主有什麼責任?雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道其實我們我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念這個概念\n\n25:44.496 --> 26:11.476\n當勞工我現在講這僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引\n\n26:12.731 --> 26:20.369\n那我要講這個這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權退避權\n\n26:23.013 --> 26:44.498\n我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色\n\n26:45.538 --> 27:10.673\n人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片按說明為職災預防每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償\n\n27:12.455 --> 27:31.364\n所以在發生前要及時上傳及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講如果政府做不到那你就給我們一個網頁\n\n27:33.025 --> 27:52.382\n讓雇主也來勞工也來全民大家一起來降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎部長可以評估一下嗎好謝謝評估一下只是評估一下我還沒再問你一個\n\n27:57.806 --> 28:01.688\n評估完之後一個月的回報這樣好嗎蔣萬安市長他說以後台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強\n\n28:21.078 --> 28:39.078\n沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了\n\n28:41.781 --> 28:56.806\n該停工的尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷的我再講這個我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎\n\n28:58.487 --> 29:27.147\n如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長\n\n29:28.991 --> 29:51.113\n跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均啊\n\n29:52.728 --> 30:09.878\n一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好謝謝林委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.574,"end":9.874,"text":"謝謝主席 請紅部長"},{"start":18.153,"end":38.832,"text":"部長你好 大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年 死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年 去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡"},{"start":39.753,"end":48.199,"text":"比你們原定目標68人 還高出很多很多然後呢 從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命 佔所有...抱歉 還沒 還沒 OK"},{"start":65.29,"end":90.716,"text":"就是歷年的這個最弱的植栽件數奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個"},{"start":94.237,"end":116.505,"text":"發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天也有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成"},{"start":117.125,"end":143.563,"text":"六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計喔83個 去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練"},{"start":145.236,"end":168.881,"text":"包括建築工程 土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡 去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑 口號 口號"},{"start":174.434,"end":193.448,"text":"你們說在最弱打擊年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不 你不覺得這很荒謬嗎 部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦"},{"start":194.557,"end":205.044,"text":"你是最弱 防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼"},{"start":225.663,"end":227.524,"text":"營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張"},{"start":246.083,"end":258.794,"text":"顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核"},{"start":259.514,"end":266.656,"text":"跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後"},{"start":288.123,"end":295.331,"text":"阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法 職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔"},{"start":302.632,"end":317.384,"text":"那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎"},{"start":321.142,"end":332.369,"text":"部長 法治病就是這樣寫 僱主有責任 勞工有義務但都沒有人在做 死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題 你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬"},{"start":338.072,"end":353.738,"text":"你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是 這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證 現在換你了啦輸定時不知道 沒辦法啦"},{"start":366.887,"end":389.292,"text":"這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高"},{"start":390.449,"end":399.013,"text":"勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個"},{"start":416.32,"end":427.525,"text":"觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢"},{"start":429.993,"end":447.371,"text":"這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因"},{"start":451.255,"end":456.9,"text":"有一點改一下 我們也要 所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下 誘因就是雇主的工資照顧我們也要來提高 我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因這是我們現在 你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主 雇主如果願意付薪水 讓勞工去上課"},{"start":476.438,"end":504.622,"text":"勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是 耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程不是要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦"},{"start":505.595,"end":533.54,"text":"不要講那一些啦 有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡 我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的 使出的時間又金錢就花自己的錢而這個跟我們職業安全率 不會花到勞工自己的錢"},{"start":534.46,"end":537.443,"text":"只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則"},{"start":555.599,"end":565.143,"text":"職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導 紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程"},{"start":580.51,"end":584.295,"text":"訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管"},{"start":597.99,"end":604.136,"text":"沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管"},{"start":613.024,"end":627.034,"text":"事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的"},{"start":637.021,"end":648.584,"text":"你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望"},{"start":657.307,"end":671.333,"text":"每一個僱主業者都要能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的 更不要講其他重傷重災的"},{"start":677.321,"end":699.031,"text":"是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個"},{"start":700.111,"end":711.936,"text":"要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線"},{"start":730.148,"end":748.986,"text":"你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡"},{"start":749.987,"end":762.078,"text":"所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼"},{"start":771.483,"end":775.808,"text":"我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是"},{"start":792.509,"end":800.455,"text":"我 你沒有講的 我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧 現在舊的建築占99%那是新設的建築 新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總諮詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九"},{"start":813.766,"end":825.662,"text":"都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼"},{"start":827.984,"end":849.27,"text":"你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提到很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講來你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們"},{"start":852.472,"end":862.464,"text":"你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我告訴你你都沒想到自營業者"},{"start":869.4,"end":887.73,"text":"那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡路整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎"},{"start":889.281,"end":899.971,"text":"委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬"},{"start":904.451,"end":924.582,"text":"要專案去處理我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千五千或八千的這個危險加急各位啊部長啊"},{"start":926.704,"end":932.487,"text":"交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修又就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的這個冷氣空調"},{"start":955.401,"end":960.523,"text":"你願意嗎 署長你願意嗎 部長你願意嗎可是他沒有辦法耶 他必須要耶沒有安全帶 沒有扣環 沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點 沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點 通通都沒有耶怎麼辦"},{"start":979.608,"end":992.669,"text":"阿你為了說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的 那舊的怎麼辦"},{"start":993.985,"end":1018.217,"text":"通通都沒有那我再跟你講喔這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜"},{"start":1021.909,"end":1032.406,"text":"依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足"},{"start":1035.647,"end":1056.361,"text":"這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做 都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎"},{"start":1060.203,"end":1071.441,"text":"所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主"},{"start":1074.178,"end":1092.761,"text":"雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後"},{"start":1093.982,"end":1105.671,"text":"管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是"},{"start":1108.64,"end":1132.701,"text":"很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的"},{"start":1133.762,"end":1145.271,"text":"這個植栽預防的意識這個就說明了教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個"},{"start":1152.316,"end":1174.313,"text":"其實歷年的職災案例分析 發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落 大家觀音都一樣像是施工架 水平支撐 模板支撐 鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含"},{"start":1175.053,"end":1182.061,"text":"這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移"},{"start":1197.798,"end":1214.01,"text":"然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到"},{"start":1224.649,"end":1246.595,"text":"即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有"},{"start":1247.455,"end":1258.687,"text":"有賠償和補償的連帶責任但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以有時候就付一點錢但是我們意思是說這個問題知識體大那我現在要跟你講有時候就是你看一下這個圖"},{"start":1270.462,"end":1297.782,"text":"你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年"},{"start":1298.763,"end":1312.659,"text":"其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多"},{"start":1314.147,"end":1342.548,"text":"那可是這有沒有影響這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題如果雇主你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主你在乎植栽的預防"},{"start":1343.869,"end":1369.326,"text":"那會放任你的勞工這樣子做 中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工 然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故 職災的風險 就這樣子一直提高上去嗎部長 你對於這個照片 你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況 這不是特例你到立法院去 附近中午休息就是這樣子 普遍的狀況 隨便拍都有"},{"start":1370.492,"end":1389.344,"text":"部長你做個感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任如果雇主真的在乎那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育安全教育和訓練嗎"},{"start":1391.229,"end":1418.283,"text":"如果政府做不到然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAP SAFE檢舉挽救生命你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命"},{"start":1421.189,"end":1421.949,"text":"他從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給他簡單快速的"},{"start":1438.086,"end":1462.699,"text":"你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过联邦政府网站的网页吗?为了开始,请选择这个链接,或检查这个QR码,你能够报告各种各样的问题,例如职业法规则,职业安全和健康规则或缺失,非法职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或�"},{"start":1464.127,"end":1469.459,"text":"例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。"},{"start":1471.783,"end":1494.499,"text":"您也可以通过这个链接直接到同一页去报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作案是当一个职员在工作上执行一项任务,对他们的健康或安全的威胁,或当工作室的状况可能会造成伤害。这可以包括不被接受安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护导致的旅行伤害。"},{"start":1496.664,"end":1501.388,"text":"好 我就要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高空墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動"},{"start":1515.18,"end":1530.072,"text":"然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報雇主有什麼責任?雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道其實我們我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念這個概念"},{"start":1544.496,"end":1571.476,"text":"當勞工 我現在講這僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照 然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引"},{"start":1572.731,"end":1580.369,"text":"那我要講這個 這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權 退避權"},{"start":1583.013,"end":1604.498,"text":"我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色"},{"start":1605.538,"end":1630.673,"text":"人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片按說明為職災預防 每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前 我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償"},{"start":1632.455,"end":1651.364,"text":"所以在發生前要及時上傳 及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例 這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來 降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講 如果政府做不到 那你就給我們一個網頁"},{"start":1653.025,"end":1672.382,"text":"讓雇主也來 勞工也來 全民大家一起來降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦 保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎 部長可以評估一下嗎好 謝謝 評估一下 只是評估一下我還沒再問你一個"},{"start":1677.806,"end":1681.688,"text":"評估完之後一個月的回報這樣好嗎蔣萬安市長他說以後台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強"},{"start":1701.078,"end":1719.078,"text":"沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了"},{"start":1721.781,"end":1736.806,"text":"該停工的 尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷的我再講這個 我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎"},{"start":1738.487,"end":1767.147,"text":"如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長"},{"start":1768.991,"end":1791.113,"text":"跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均啊"},{"start":1792.728,"end":1809.878,"text":"一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好 那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時30分）謝謝主席。是不是請我們的洪部長？"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長你好。大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年死亡人數要壓在68人以內，你的墜落打擊年去年一共有83名工人墜落身亡，比你們原訂目標68人還高出很多、很多。從2014到2023年10年之間，歷年墜落的職災件數一共奪走995條人命，占所有營造業職災死亡比例六到七成茲事體大，當然營造業是屬於高度勞動密集還有兼具技術專業的產業，工作環境是相當複雜而且變異性非常高，在這種狀況裡面職災死亡相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重，所以今天大家都特別提出，今天也有人講到英國、新加坡和日本，大家都談到一樣的產業，他們營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成，臺灣的致死率是六、七成，2024年墜落死亡的83人當中，建築工程就有50人，你們自己也有統計，去年死亡的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練，包括建築工程、土木工程和修繕工程，其中又以建築業的工人最多。去年死了83個，有71個罹難者完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練，這就是你們去年所謂的營造業的墜落打擊年嗎？你們在開玩笑！口號！口號！你們說墜落打擊年結果發現死者裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練，你不覺得這很荒謬嗎？部長，會不會有一點太荒謬？"],["洪部長申翰：確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數，我覺得是有待提升。"],["林委員淑芬：不是。你是防止墜落的打擊年，你訂一年是68個以內結果死了83個，而且83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練。部長，我先問你，你都不敢承認這個問題很荒謬、很離譜。我再問你如何斷定勞工已經受過教育訓練，你們查核的機制是什麼？營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重，沒有受過任何教育訓練罹災的勞工比例超過九成，結果40位的罹難者當中有3個，這個數字很誇張。雇主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工，這不是擺明直接把他們送到死神的身邊嗎？你們怎麼斷定有沒有受過訓練？你們怎麼查核？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，委員的這個數據應該是我們職業災害調查的時候，我們問罹災勞工的雇主，他到任當天有沒有對他做3個小時到6小時的安全衛生教育訓練。"],["林委員淑芬：絕對沒有。"],["林署長毓堂：剛剛委員提那個數字，就是檢查員問了雇主以後，雇主沒辦法提出有對他做6小時的教育訓練。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那個都是不幸事件罹災之後……"],["林署長毓堂：是、是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：但你平時是怎麼樣去確認？因為職業安全衛生法第三十二條就講雇主有實施安衛教育和訓練的責任，勞工有接受訓練的義務，那我們勞動行政部門到底怎樣確定，而且你們是怎麼查核的？沒有勞檢就沒有查核？我們不用一條強制回報的機制嗎？部長，法制面就是這樣寫，雇主有責任，勞工有義務，但都沒有人在做，死了以後才發現根本九成以上都沒做過訓練，你們也都知道這個問題，你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬，如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的墜落打擊年還不夠荒謬，你都宣稱是防止墜落的打擊年，結果還是這麼荒謬！這個政策是有效的嗎？更不要講法律就在那裡，所以這是一個契機。部長，現在換你了，署長不知道，也沒辦法啦！這有沒有辦法變成一個查核制度面的反省，而且是強制要回報，有沒有可能？"],["洪部長申翰：我們來研擬相關的機制，我們也會來提高……因為包括很多的公協會，其實有辦這些教育安全的講座，坦白說，他們也跟我們反映，其實很多勞工參與的意願不高。"],["林委員淑芬：勞工要花自己的時間怎麼會有參與的意願？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主，所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了，你在講勞工，你推卸給勞工。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我不是……"],["林委員淑芬：職災預防責任是雇主，要使用雇主的時間，而不是使用勞工的時間，你這個觀念要好好搞清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我不是推卸給勞工。"],["林委員淑芬：不是，你這個觀念要搞清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：我剛剛那句話還沒講完，他們也跟我反映勞工參與的意願不高，就是他覺得要花一天的時間坐在那個地方，他想拿一天的時間去賺錢。"],["林委員淑芬：這又講錯了。"],["洪部長申翰：所以……"],["林委員淑芬：這一天就是雇主要給付工資，然後勞工不用上工，那6個小時要去上課，而他的雇主要給付工資，你懂嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我現在說的是我們也在思考怎樣來提高相關的誘因。"],["林委員淑芬：你的觀念可能要稍微改一下。"],["洪部長申翰：我的意思是說，在這個狀況下……"],["林委員淑芬：誘因就是雇主的工資照付。"],["洪部長申翰：我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與職業安全訓練的誘因，這是我們現在正在做的事情。"],["林委員淑芬：你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願？真正沒有意願的是雇主，雇主如果願意付薪水讓勞工去上課，勞工何樂而不為呢？現在你沒有薪水，叫勞工花自己的時間去上課，當然不想上課，重點在這裡。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實是雇主的責任，我們目前在部裡面也在協助，如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的6小時課程，現在我們有數位的學習課程，他可以線上……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你有沒有薪水，重點是有沒有薪水？薪水啦！不要講那一些，有沒有薪水才是重點，你叫勞工花自己的時間，還是要花雇主給付薪水之後的時間，這才是重點。我聽你們部長和署長講話的方法，好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間，如果時間就是金錢，就是花自己的錢，而這個跟我們職業安全衛生……"],["洪部長申翰：我們不會花到勞工自己的錢，我們現在……"],["林委員淑芬：時間就是金錢，你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話，那你就是叫勞工自己買單。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這當然是雇主的責任，我們會強化要求雇主去負這個責任。"],["林委員淑芬：預防責任！"],["洪部長申翰：第一個會來要求這個責任。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你今天再講下去，你就是硬拗了。你們職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則，你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工，依其工作性質接受在職訓練，但你們在勞動職業安全衛生的研究季刊今年的3月號，你們自己季刊裡面就報導，教育訓練對營造業沒有墜落或高架作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程，訓練規則針對營造業安全與衛生業務主管甲、乙和丙種墜落危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時，而且這個訓練是給安衛業務主管，沒有落實到每一個上工的勞工，沒有規範實務訓練的內容，對整體的墜落預防教學品質有很大的落差，所以，你們有對事業單位的主管有課程上的訓練，但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定，且課程時數也不夠，更沒有實務的訓練課程，這個是你們的季刊自己寫的。我剛剛講的事情，你可不可以再具體回答，勞工去上課，成本算誰的？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然希望雇主來付。"],["林委員淑芬：那就好了，你希望雇主怎麼個付法？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個是我們會來加強要求，第二個是剛剛就像委員說的，如果相關的課程……"],["林委員淑芬：不是加強要求，我們希望每一個雇主、業者都能夠落實安衛法第三十二條的雇主有責任，勞工有義務接受教育訓練，而不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練，這是死亡的更不要講其他重傷、重災的。"],["林署長毓堂：委員剛剛提到的課程裡面，有些術科的部分，我們在未來課程上會檢討，設計上可以要求……"],["林委員淑芬：我今天都指出制度面的問題，你們要確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練，特別是營造業的墜落打擊年成為口號之後，我沒有要求你更多的事情，你至少這個要百分之百做得到吧？其實我也不好意思再講，不只是營造業，高空墜落還有另外一個行業，哪一個行業你知道嗎？我也總質詢過，你們就只想到營造業，冷氣空調安裝業的冷氣空調技師、安裝工人比營造業的工人還更命懸一線，你知道在2010到2022年9月之間，也是差不多十幾年，冷氣師傅裝設或是修繕裡面，有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡，40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡，所以冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣、修冷氣高空墜落、滾落造成失能和死亡，署長，你知道嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這一塊我們也非常重視。"],["林委員淑芬：你很重視，那你們做了什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：我們有跟內政部國土署針對在建築技術規則裡面，在源頭裡面都要有一些圖說……"],["林委員淑芬：那個不要再講，因為那是我在總質詢要求的，新的建築物的規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間，讓維修和裝設有安全的環境。但是你沒有講，我也沒有主動再提，那舊的建築物呢？現在舊的建築占99%，新蓋的建築因為我總質詢之後有受到建築規範了，可是現在所有安裝冷氣九成九都是舊的建物，沒有規範的建物，而現在還在命懸一線這一些冷氣空調技師在那裡施工，高空墜落死亡率這麼高，那你們做了什麼預防？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說，委員剛剛其實提了很多點，我們都覺得確實有檢討空間。"],["林委員淑芬：我講完你們才想到。"],["洪部長申翰：而且都是如何真正能夠落實，所以我會來要求職安署，對於落實強制的機制，我覺得可以檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，連冷氣裝設、空調裝設，你們很難要求，為什麼你知道嗎？你們不知道，因為很多都是自營業者。"],["洪部長申翰：是阿！"],["林委員淑芬：我講你就知道，我沒問你都沒想到。","對於自營業者，你們要怎樣去落實？他有什麼動機要去加強訓練？你們要靠他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝設的時候，舊有建物沒有任何「腳路」，裝在半空中的，他們要怎麼去修理？你知道他們多可憐嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，剛剛講的這些事情是都是如何落實，甚至要不要有強制機制的問題，我覺得這部分，我們會請職安署針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬。"],["林委員淑芬：要專案去處理。我現在跟你講的意思是，現在冷氣裝設的旺季到了，很多人說這麼危險，很多人看了就說不做了，但也有很多人是非做不可，然後他只能說他要多加3,000、5,000或8,000的危險加給。各位啊！部長啊！加了5,000、8,000給你去做高空沒有任何防護、危險度極高的裝設或者是維修，就買斷了這一個責任，然後就把風險默默的吞下去，5,000元、8,000元給你，叫你去維修、裝設半空中沒有任何「腳路」、沒有任何安全防護措施的冷氣空調，你願意嗎？署長你願意嗎？部長你願意嗎？可是他沒有辦法，他必須要，沒有安全帶、沒有扣環、沒有錨定點，其實他也必須要有一些安全設施做預防，可是沒有錨定點、沒有安全扣環、沒有任何可以保護他可掛式的錨定點，通通都沒有，怎麼辦？要立委說一下，你才會去想到；說一下，你才會去想到，連署長都不知道，你就想到我總質詢要求新蓋的建築物，要有一個裝設的空間，那是新的，那麼舊的怎麼辦？通通都沒有。","我再跟你講，這個問題很嚴重，再講回來高空墜落和建築業。去年的聖誕節，臺北市一個搭建跨年舞臺的男性工作人員從20米高、7樓層高的鷹架上摔落，馬上當場死亡，勞檢調查指出沒有確實佩戴安全帶，雇主也沒有設立安全網，這種狀況很離譜，依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則，兩公尺以上就必須要有安全防墜落的措施了，可是都沒有，職業安全設施規則還是讓雇主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準，如果雇主連最低標準都不願意做、都沒有做，你還能奢望雇主改善他的其他的作業場所，預防勞工發生職災嗎？所以我們剛剛常常看到工地外的籬笆印著「安全第一」的口號，但是雇主通通都沒有落實確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任，雇主有預防責任，但是勞工也有遵守的責任。","在這種狀況下，勞工的安全意識薄弱的話，為圖方便，有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業，管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任，沒有監督要求勞工遵守正確安全的步驟，所以意外總是會來臨。我現在要講的是，很多從事營建工作的勞工，有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業，而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高。發生職災的原因，有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況，有時候是雇主沒有預防所該有的設施設備，但是其中一部分是勞工，也有很大一部分勞工是沒有安全職災預防的意識，這就說明了教育訓練多麼重要，而剛好、恰巧政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為輕忽。我現在要講的是，其實歷年的職災案例分析，發生墜落事故的原因和因素，發生的情境都具有高度的相似性，大家高空作業原因都一樣，像是施工架水平支撐、模板支撐、鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業，其中造成墜落災害的關鍵原因，可能包含這些架構配置不當、本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施，而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足。我接下來要講，還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地，營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高，承攬外包層層轉移，不斷一層又一層的分包下去，外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全在層層外包之下被轉嫁了，而且都是工地層層轉包下的犧牲品，而建築業就是層層轉包，一層又一層，我們都知道風險就是這樣被移轉，安衛法的確有講到即便他移轉，他的補償責任還在，他的賠償責任也在，他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣，但是因為沒有刑責，沒有任何的刑責，所以工地最有資本、資本最雄厚的起造單位、營造單位，其實他們也不太重視，雖然有賠償和補償的連帶責任，但是不一定會害怕，因為不一定會發生，僥倖的心態在這種狀況，所以有時候就付一點錢，但是我們的意思是，這個問題茲事體大。","我現在要跟你講，你看一下這個圖，「工地夥伴安全第一」，其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題，但是真的是中午休息太熱了，而且很多工地的福利社，聽說在工地附近的便利商店，他們的一餐就是這樣子，買了啤酒配他的便當，就這樣子喝。其實我很不願意說你要去查，可是喝了酒上工，勞工沒有安全意識的概念，管理監督人員也不管這麼多，可是這有沒有影響？我不願苛責勞工，但這是不是顯示營造廠商工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間，那麼怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題？如果雇主在乎重視作業安全，如果雇主在乎職災的預防，哪會放任你的勞工這樣子做，中午就喝酒，喝完酒就上工，然後到高空上作業，讓工安事故職災的風險就這樣子一直提高上去嗎？部長，你對於這個照片有什麼感想？這是普遍的狀況，這不是特例，你到立法院附近，中午休息就是這樣子，普遍的狀況，隨便拍都有。部長，你作何感想？"],["洪部長申翰：這看起來當然是安全意識是有待加強的。"],["林委員淑芬：有待加強，雇主有責任，管理階層也有責任，如果雇主真的在乎，勞工沒有安全意識，難道不應該給他們好的教育、安全教育和訓練嗎？如果政府做不到，然後政府也管不了，失能、死亡的比例還是這麼高，那麼我就建議我們比照新加坡，把新加坡的模式放給大家看，他有一個SnapSAFE檢舉挽救生命，你看他們的官方網頁，它是一個報告平臺，舉報不安全的工作場所、行為可以挽救生命。他從2021年起，每年都會推行全國性的工作場所安全衛生運動，影片中提到全民一起來，不仰賴政府。","（播放影片）"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，這個待會大家上網看。我最後要講，新加坡政府有心要作為，所以在2024年，你們是推高空墜落打擊年，人家也在做回報救命運動，然後他們要雇主、勞工和人民一起來回報，雇主有什麼責任？雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生，要賦予勞工可以大聲講出不安全情況的權利，當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險、要表彰回報的勞工。部長，你知道其實我們在法律上早就有了這個概念。現在講的這個是雇主的責任，接下來是勞工的責任，當勞工發現不安全的情況時，應採取暫停、拍照、回報的動作，向雇主或工會報告不安全的狀況，勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講的SnapSAFE網站，隨時上傳不安全的狀況，只需要填寫說明、上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳，甚至也有參考虛驚事件報告指引。","我要講的是，這個跟我們的安衛法哪一個概念也有，我們其實在母法上也有退避權，部長，你知道退避權嗎？我們連法律工具都有，但是我們就缺少政府這種全民一起來，真的確實要打擊職災、降低職災風險的決心。他不是雇主、勞工，新加坡連民眾都可以回報，在救命運動當中，人民要扮演重要的角色，當人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時，也可以使用SnapSAFE網站，自己上傳照片和說明，為職災預防，每個人都盡一己之力，然後也可以下載海報張貼於工作場所，鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動，所以新加坡是這樣子做，在職災發生前，我們都知道職災預防更勝於事後的補償，所以在發生前要及時上傳、及時處理。新加坡政府是用這樣的決心、魄力、這樣防微杜漸，人家建立起來降低職災的決心和真正的作為，而且真的有成效，而臺灣的政府做什麼？我現在要講，如果政府做不到，那你就給我們一個網頁，讓雇主也來、勞工也來，全民大家一起來降低我們的職災發生率，所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動，這才是真正的重點啦！部長，你覺得有辦法嗎？"],["主席：部長可以評估一下嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好，我們來評估一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：評估一下？只是評估一下？我再問你一個……"],["主席：評估完之後，一個月內回報，這樣好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：蔣萬安市長說，臺北市的高空墜落案件很多，所以他在公安督導會報說，以後墜落發生的時候，工地至少停工半個月或一個月，而且要透過事故註記，沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的，你對這個事情，就是他把處罰強度增強，沒有送書面報告就可以復工的，沒有改善後就立刻復工的，而且要停工至少半個月、一個月，你覺得呢？你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，對於停工，其實我有跟署裡面說了，該停工的，尤其是過去紀錄上面前科累累……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講這個，我問你的是，他把強度拉高了，而且依照你們的停工辦法，只要改善，檢送書面報告就可以復工，你覺得這麼easy嗎？如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎？如果有死亡案件的話，這樣子改善就可以馬上復工嗎？當臺北市地方政府宣示，你如果有的話就一律半個月、一個月才准復工，看你有辦法怎麼樣，看你有這個決心要跟政府拚嗎？這樣子的話，你有什麼看法？"],["主席：請署長簡單、明確說明。"],["林委員淑芬：我可不可以再問你，以往我們這種死亡案件，從停工到復工，平均時間多長？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們最近也在檢討這個停、復工的要點，如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害，不是說半個月或一個月復工，是整體改善，甚至經過三次、四次的審查，才會讓他們復工。"],["林委員淑芬：那你都沒有書面嗎？如果有死亡案件，書面審查就可以，這個要件拿掉，然後我問你，過去都是停多久？平均一個死亡案件這樣停復工都是停多久？你不要講得這麼好聽啦！"],["林署長毓堂：我們是不是再提供相關數據？因為不同的情節，有的是火災爆炸，有的是墜落，所以這個部分我們可能要提供數據。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你就把詳細資料檢附給我們看一下。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}}