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\"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 645.552, \"end\": 646.354, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"課\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 646.354, \"end\": 646.514, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 646.514, \"end\": 646.935, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 646.935, \"end\": 647.035, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 647.035, \"end\": 647.215, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 647.215, \"end\": 647.295, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 647.295, \"end\": 647.476, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 647.476, \"end\": 647.656, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 647.656, \"end\": 647.976, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 647.976, \"end\": 648.197, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 648.197, \"end\": 648.397, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 648.397, \"end\": 648.417, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,424 --> 00:00:18,395\n好謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好\n\n2\n00:00:19,318 --> 00:00:46,384\n好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了\n\n3\n00:00:48,022 --> 00:01:02,878\n跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯\n\n4\n00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:31,471\n好我們來看一下統計根據統計自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦\n\n5\n00:01:35,542 --> 00:01:50,537\n今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分\n\n6\n00:01:56,477 --> 00:02:21,653\n當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防\n\n7\n00:02:24,551 --> 00:02:49,121\n我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分\n\n8\n00:02:49,141 --> 00:03:07,958\n修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實\n\n9\n00:03:09,019 --> 00:03:38,039\n那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的\n\n10\n00:03:39,034 --> 00:04:02,128\n跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強\n\n11\n00:04:03,253 --> 00:04:31,101\n這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受\n\n12\n00:04:32,282 --> 00:04:59,685\n適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好當然重要好重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練\n\n13\n00:05:02,782 --> 00:05:22,752\n七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧\n\n14\n00:05:30,339 --> 00:05:40,499\n那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎\n\n15\n00:05:41,607 --> 00:06:07,135\n所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎\n\n16\n00:06:09,617 --> 00:06:26,110\n上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課\n\n17\n00:06:26,830 --> 00:06:50,871\n是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走\n\n18\n00:06:51,937 --> 00:07:03,278\n所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題\n\n19\n00:07:05,573 --> 00:07:24,138\n跟委員說明確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任\n\n20\n00:07:24,758 --> 00:07:46,174\n今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工\n\n21\n00:07:46,934 --> 00:07:54,600\n那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊\n\n22\n00:08:03,223 --> 00:08:24,651\n呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道\n\n23\n00:08:25,491 --> 00:08:41,186\n這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題\n\n24\n00:08:42,657 --> 00:09:06,703\n我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用\n\n25\n00:09:08,019 --> 00:09:21,381\n請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享\n\n26\n00:09:24,505 --> 00:09:41,961\n大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎\n\n27\n00:09:43,622 --> 00:10:10,508\n跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎\n\n28\n00:10:11,548 --> 00:10:38,536\n該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請\n\n29\n00:10:39,983 --> 00:10:48,417\n自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10424\t18395\t好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好\n19318\t46384\t好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了\n48022\t62878\t跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯\n64960\t91471\t好 我們來看一下統計根據統計 自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦\n95542\t110537\t今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分\n116477\t141653\t當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防\n144551\t169121\t我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分\n169141\t187958\t修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實\n189019\t218039\t那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的\n219034\t242128\t跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強\n243253\t271101\t這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受\n272282\t299685\t適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要好 重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練\n302782\t322752\t七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧\n330339\t340499\t那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎\n341607\t367135\t所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎\n369617\t386110\t上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課\n386830\t410871\t是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走\n411937\t423278\t所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題\n425573\t444138\t跟委員說明 確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任\n444758\t466174\t今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工\n466934\t474600\t那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊\n483223\t504651\t呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道\n505491\t521186\t這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題\n522657\t546703\t我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用\n548019\t561381\t請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享\n564505\t581961\t大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎\n583622\t610508\t跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次 到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎\n611548\t638536\t該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請\n639983\t648417\t自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好\n好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了\n跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯\n好 我們來看一下統計根據統計 自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦\n今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分\n當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防\n我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分\n修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實\n那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的\n跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強\n這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受\n適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要好 重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練\n七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧\n那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎\n所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎\n上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課\n是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走\n所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題\n跟委員說明 確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任\n今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工\n那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊\n呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道\n這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題\n我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用\n請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享\n大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎\n跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次 到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎\n該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請\n自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.424 --> 00:18.395\n好謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好\n\n00:19.318 --> 00:46.384\n好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了\n\n00:48.022 --> 01:02.878\n跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯\n\n01:04.960 --> 01:31.471\n好我們來看一下統計根據統計自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦\n\n01:35.542 --> 01:50.537\n今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分\n\n01:56.477 --> 02:21.653\n當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防\n\n02:24.551 --> 02:49.121\n我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分\n\n02:49.141 --> 03:07.958\n修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實\n\n03:09.019 --> 03:38.039\n那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的\n\n03:39.034 --> 04:02.128\n跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強\n\n04:03.253 --> 04:31.101\n這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受\n\n04:32.282 --> 04:59.685\n適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好當然重要好重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練\n\n05:02.782 --> 05:22.752\n七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧\n\n05:30.339 --> 05:40.499\n那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎\n\n05:41.607 --> 06:07.135\n所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎\n\n06:09.617 --> 06:26.110\n上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課\n\n06:26.830 --> 06:50.871\n是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走\n\n06:51.937 --> 07:03.278\n所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題\n\n07:05.573 --> 07:24.138\n跟委員說明確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任\n\n07:24.758 --> 07:46.174\n今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工\n\n07:46.934 --> 07:54.600\n那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊\n\n08:03.223 --> 08:24.651\n呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道\n\n08:25.491 --> 08:41.186\n這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題\n\n08:42.657 --> 09:06.703\n我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用\n\n09:08.019 --> 09:21.381\n請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享\n\n09:24.505 --> 09:41.961\n大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎\n\n09:43.622 --> 10:10.508\n跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎\n\n10:11.548 --> 10:38.536\n該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請\n\n10:39.983 --> 10:48.417\n自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.424,"end":18.395,"text":"好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好"},{"start":19.318,"end":46.384,"text":"好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了"},{"start":48.022,"end":62.878,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯"},{"start":64.96,"end":91.471,"text":"好 我們來看一下統計根據統計 自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦"},{"start":95.542,"end":110.537,"text":"今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分"},{"start":116.477,"end":141.653,"text":"當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防"},{"start":144.551,"end":169.121,"text":"我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分"},{"start":169.141,"end":187.958,"text":"修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實"},{"start":189.019,"end":218.039,"text":"那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的"},{"start":219.034,"end":242.128,"text":"跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強"},{"start":243.253,"end":271.101,"text":"這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受"},{"start":272.282,"end":299.685,"text":"適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要好 重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練"},{"start":302.782,"end":322.752,"text":"七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧"},{"start":330.339,"end":340.499,"text":"那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎"},{"start":341.607,"end":367.135,"text":"所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎"},{"start":369.617,"end":386.11,"text":"上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課"},{"start":386.83,"end":410.871,"text":"是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走"},{"start":411.937,"end":423.278,"text":"所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題"},{"start":425.573,"end":444.138,"text":"跟委員說明 確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任"},{"start":444.758,"end":466.174,"text":"今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工"},{"start":466.934,"end":474.6,"text":"那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊"},{"start":483.223,"end":504.651,"text":"呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道"},{"start":505.491,"end":521.186,"text":"這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題"},{"start":522.657,"end":546.703,"text":"我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用"},{"start":548.019,"end":561.381,"text":"請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享"},{"start":564.505,"end":581.961,"text":"大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎"},{"start":583.622,"end":610.508,"text":"跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次 到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎"},{"start":611.548,"end":638.536,"text":"該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請"},{"start":639.983,"end":648.417,"text":"自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時38分）謝謝，有請部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，大家都很關心，營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故常年高居重大職業災害的首位，死亡人數高達60%到70%，所以將2024年定為營造業墜落打擊年，目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要低於68人。部長，墜落打擊年越打越差，到底怎麼了？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實我們在去年沒有達到原本68人的目標，可是並沒有增加，不是越打越差，還是有微幅的下降，但是下降的幅度確實沒有達標，沒有錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們來看一下，根據統計，自114年1月1日到4月15日，因墜落、滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人，是全產業。部長，勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆，因為今年才過不到一半，距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的目標，現在就已經超過一半，勞動部怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：今年營造業是18。"],["羅委員廷瑋：什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：目前營造業死亡人數是18人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：18人？我說的是全產業因墜落、滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人，我剛才講的是全產業。"],["洪部長申翰：全產業是36人，營造業是18人，營造業是全產業的其中一部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我是用最高的標準去看，基本上我想說的是，以113年為例，墜落、滾落的死亡職災全產業人數有148人。剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業墜落死亡職災有83人，148減83，其他產業有65人，比例其實也不少。對於營造業以外的行業墜落職災，部長，怎麼預防？"],["洪部長申翰：現在對於相關的墜落，我們從法制面的修訂，其實現在有做了修法的計畫，草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院，包括要去整合層層轉包的包商責任跟相關的風險，也包括我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任，這是在法制面的部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：修法是眾多手段之一，就是你剛剛說的法制面。我以4月21號臺大醫院東外牆鷹架坍塌的案件為例，造成移工一死，事後點工時還發現少一人，請問廠商在人員的管理上究竟有無落實？關於這個部分，當然這是個案，在預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠？如何降災、如何提升其職業安全衛生的品質？我想入法、修法也是一個手段。勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業墜落預防的專案檢查，部長，檢查一直都有在做，現在你說要專案，但為什麼職災總是發生在查察落實之後？還是查察落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我不覺得這些查察都是做表面，我們需要更努力，我覺得我們是確實需要更努力，可是我不同意一概而論地說這些都是做表面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣子的話，我們來看一下，雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足？您覺得呢？"],["洪部長申翰：當然有這個狀況。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果是這樣，職安意識這部分要怎麼加強？"],["洪部長申翰：這裡面包括剛剛大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這邊我來講一下，你剛剛說教育訓練，就是職業安全衛生法第三十二條第一項規定：「雇主對勞工應施以從事工作與預防災變所必要之安全衛生教育及訓練」，就是所謂的教育訓練，但是我們看到職業安全衛生教育訓練規則第十七條第一項更規定：「雇主對新僱勞工或在職勞工於變更工作前，應使其接受適於各該工作必要之一般安全衛生教育訓練」。部長，你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災影響、對整體發生以後重要嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：整體發生？"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響……"],["洪部長申翰：當然重要。"],["羅委員廷瑋：據勞動部統計，職災發生的罹災者有七成是沒有教育訓練，七成是總數。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，尤其是營造業，確實很多都是派遣或是點工，他們或許在當天上工就罹災的話，可能我們在查察的時候，雇主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說有對他做教育訓練，所以就會認為他違反規定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：113年營造業墜落死亡人數是83人，有71人沒有教育訓練，對吧？署長，你是不是要跟部長講一下，這個數字應該沒有錯吧？"],["林署長毓堂：對，應該是占七成。"],["羅委員廷瑋：七成是非常高的，部長，你有看到現在的狀況嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我剛才才會說，我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加地落實，雖然有法規在，但是落實的程度不夠高，徒法還是有不足以自行的狀況。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在有法規，但落實的程度不夠高，為什麼落實的程度不夠高？到底狀況在哪裡？勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練，勞工要怎麼上課？是雇主要幫他上課，還是要找誰？去教育訓練的機構上課嗎？上課的這一天，勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是雇主的責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任，但是我剛剛說的，他怎麼上課？"],["洪部長申翰：不是相信，我們要求雇主是有責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，要求雇主要有責任，但是他要怎麼上課？是雇主幫他上課，還是專業的教育機構幫他上課，還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課？這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課，上課的費用雇主也不一定會出，然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水，當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走，所以乾脆勞工就不去上課、不去接受這個教育訓練，這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境，我們到底該怎麼辦？部長，我剛剛點出的這些問題。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員說明，確實小小包的包商，他沒有能力上課，但是我們在法令上也規定最大包的營造廠在最小包的工人進來時，他還是可以集合起來幫他上課，我們目前在責任上還是可以去追究到最大包要做到這個責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天大家都非常著重在數字上的探討，我也是，但是我們也必須要找一些方法，到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦？沒有辦法落實，所以教育訓練沒有落實，要怎麼了解？勞檢要怎麼去糾出？有沒有違反時要如何處理？改善的通知、罰鍰之後，若只是改善通知，是不是仍然可以上工？那麼勞工的危害辨知能力還是不夠，還是容易發生職災啊！所以該怎麼辦？第一次違反是只有改善通知，對吧？"],["林署長毓堂：沒有錯，依照現行規定是先通知改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以就可以拚第一次啊！拚第一次通知改善嘛！拚第一次沒有死，他們就賺到啊！"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這就是雇主的態度嘛！我們要怎麼幫助勞工？"],["林署長毓堂：其實我們現在上課的管道非常多，如果說是派去訓練單位，甚至現在連上網都可以上課，他隨時都可以上課，所以我們現在提供給勞工的教育訓練是多種管道，是可以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，待會我會強調多元管道有問題，但是我要講的是，第一次可以改善通知，第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次，為什麼？因為他不熟悉狀況、不熟悉整體的勞工環境。所以我要講的是，我們現在看到這個問題，我們的教育訓練在第一次是改善通知，這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多雇主想要拚看看。其次，怎麼勞檢、怎麼強力稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊？我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的。再來，職安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材？剛剛你有提到多元，到現在又有多少勞工使用？請問一下，成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費、花費？職安署可以幫我們回答一下嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實這個部分當時開發以後……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們花了多少錢？跟大家分享。"],["林署長毓堂：大概每年300萬的維護費。"],["羅委員廷瑋：每年300萬？"],["林署長毓堂：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：每年300萬，你覺得有多少勞工使用？剛剛我們講了，有七成的人沒有這樣子的教育訓練，有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材？你覺得成效有符合你們編列的這個經費嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，目前在這個網站上過課的大概有30萬人次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：30萬人次？"],["林署長毓堂：對，30萬人次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：到底是否為掛課，大家打開了以後，有沒有在前面學習，我們也不太知道。當然這不是你的錯，如果他有這樣子的行為，這不是你的錯，但是如果沒有安排教育訓練，只能依職業安全衛生法第四十五條的規定，處新臺幣三萬元以上、十五萬元以下罰鍰，依然可以上工，這不是很怪嗎？該安排教育訓練的沒有落實，等於職業安全衛生法第三十二條形同虛設。所以我要講的是，今天我們點出了這些問題，職安署要怎麼樣去加強？這部分要麻煩你，好不好？部長，我所點出的這些問題，我覺得今天我們探討實事，就是數據上的這些問題，我們希望能夠點出這些問題，也希望部長能夠多關心。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我覺得針對剛才說的教育訓練部分，怎麼樣更加落實或更多的有效管道，這部分我會請職安署檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：怎麼勞檢，然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真上課，他有沒有上課、過程怎麼樣？我覺得我們要有更多的關心。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}}