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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:55:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:05:08+08:00","duration":574,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160806","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160806","tool":"pyannote","id":"160806-pyannote"},"job_id":"VAturPlOcNQQtSAh","queued_at":"2025-05-01 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\"跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跨\", \"start\": 223.783, \"end\": 224.403, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 224.403, \"end\": 224.603, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 224.603, \"end\": 225.023, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 225.023, \"end\": 225.183, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 225.183, \"end\": 225.323, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 225.323, \"end\": 225.464, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 225.464, \"end\": 225.644, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 225.644, \"end\": 225.824, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 225.824, \"end\": 226.164, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 226.164, \"end\": 226.304, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 226.304, \"end\": 226.384, 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\"我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 247.81, \"end\": 247.93, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"倡\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 247.93, \"end\": 248.591, \"score\": 0.613}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 248.591, \"end\": 248.791, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 248.791, \"end\": 249.812, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 249.812, \"end\": 250.052, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 250.052, \"end\": 250.352, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 250.352, \"end\": 250.872, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"乎\", \"start\": 250.872, \"end\": 251.052, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 251.052, \"end\": 251.293, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 251.293, \"end\": 251.613, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 251.613, \"end\": 252.033, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 252.033, \"end\": 252.373, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 252.373, \"end\": 252.994, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 252.994, \"end\": 253.194, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 253.194, \"end\": 253.374, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 253.374, \"end\": 253.694, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 253.694, \"end\": 253.834, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 253.834, \"end\": 254.214, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 254.214, \"end\": 254.374, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 254.374, \"end\": 254.815, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 254.815, \"end\": 255.255, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 255.255, \"end\": 255.395, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 255.395, \"end\": 255.655, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"昨\", \"start\": 255.655, \"end\": 255.815, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 255.815, \"end\": 256.015, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 256.015, \"end\": 256.176, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 256.176, \"end\": 256.356, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 256.356, \"end\": 256.496, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 256.496, \"end\": 257.196, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 257.196, \"end\": 257.296, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 257.296, \"end\": 257.396, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 257.396, \"end\": 257.657, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 257.657, \"end\": 257.777, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 257.777, \"end\": 257.977, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 257.977, \"end\": 258.997, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 258.997, \"end\": 259.217, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 259.217, \"end\": 259.378, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 259.378, \"end\": 260.658, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"覬\"}, {\"word\": \"覦\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 260.658, \"end\": 260.899, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 260.899, \"end\": 261.079, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 261.079, \"end\": 261.359, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 261.359, \"end\": 261.579, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 261.579, \"end\": 261.779, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 261.779, \"end\": 262.399, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 262.399, \"end\": 262.82, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 262.82, \"end\": 263.28, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 263.28, \"end\": 263.54, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 263.54, \"end\": 263.98, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 263.98, \"end\": 264.321, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 264.321, \"end\": 265.581, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"揮\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 265.581, \"end\": 266.062, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 266.062, \"end\": 266.222, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 266.222, \"end\": 266.402, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 266.402, \"end\": 267.323, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 267.323, \"end\": 268.063, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 268.063, \"end\": 268.163, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 268.163, \"end\": 268.443, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 268.443, \"end\": 268.964, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 268.964, \"end\": 269.124, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 269.124, \"end\": 269.244, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 269.244, \"end\": 269.424, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 269.424, \"end\": 269.504, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 269.504, \"end\": 269.644, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 269.644, \"end\": 269.744, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 269.744, \"end\": 269.944, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 269.944, \"end\": 270.164, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 270.164, \"end\": 270.384, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 270.384, \"end\": 270.505, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 270.505, \"end\": 270.625, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 270.625, \"end\": 270.645, \"score\": 0.975}]}, {\"start\": 271.55, \"end\": 295.356, \"text\": \"我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 271.55, \"end\": 271.97, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 271.97, \"end\": 272.23, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 272.23, \"end\": 272.87, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 272.87, \"end\": 273.27, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 273.27, \"end\": 273.41, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 273.41, \"end\": 273.631, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 273.631, \"end\": 273.831, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"提\", 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00:00:42,365\n部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺、流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個\n\n3\n00:00:44,746 --> 00:01:00,473\n這個議員這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題\n\n4\n00:01:01,914 --> 00:01:25,310\n我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢\n\n5\n00:01:26,230 --> 00:01:34,416\n那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個動保警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢到了去年的6月28號總諮詢另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一集了也是共識我們是賦予動檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進當時部長也非常非常的肯定\n\n6\n00:01:54,369 --> 00:02:13,718\n那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的動保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心喔但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用動保警察這個部分來來做諮詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我\n\n7\n00:02:14,218 --> 00:02:41,002\n的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有緣兒我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置啦\n\n8\n00:02:42,233 --> 00:02:55,632\n我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在6月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了\n\n9\n00:02:58,957 --> 00:03:21,092\n最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題\n\n10\n00:03:22,893 --> 00:03:42,823\n那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是\n\n11\n00:03:43,783 --> 00:04:06,810\n跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的\n\n12\n00:04:07,810 --> 00:04:30,645\n我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案\n\n13\n00:04:31,550 --> 00:04:55,356\n我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是\n\n14\n00:04:58,897 --> 00:05:24,415\n我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是有沒有\n\n15\n00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:42,820\n什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年了我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調\n\n16\n00:05:48,298 --> 00:06:03,118\n我是內政部警政署行政署署長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎\n\n17\n00:06:04,540 --> 00:06:20,877\n目前來講廣義的這個警察當然我知道廣義的凍保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的凍檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力\n\n18\n00:06:21,778 --> 00:06:35,736\n像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處\n\n19\n00:06:38,379 --> 00:06:57,085\n沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自愛難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是\n\n20\n00:06:58,696 --> 00:07:14,333\n我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法\n\n21\n00:07:14,853 --> 00:07:38,712\n入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有後面的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在\n\n22\n00:07:39,392 --> 00:07:59,628\n整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個\n\n23\n00:08:01,449 --> 00:08:22,927\n私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓它合法讓它入我們的一個管理我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕\n\n24\n00:08:23,888 --> 00:08:42,491\n公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎\n\n25\n00:08:43,672 --> 00:09:06,565\n我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論\n\n26\n00:09:08,286 --> 00:09:33,140\n我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好那當然還有所謂這個動物照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來演繹六月底就會上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好謝謝部長是謝謝主席好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5694\t8038\t好,谢谢主席,有请部长,陈部长。\n16428\t42365\t部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺、流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個\n44746\t60473\t這個議員 這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為 揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題\n61914\t85310\t我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢\n86230\t94416\t那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個動保警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢到了去年的6月28號總諮詢另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一集了也是共識我們是賦予動檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進當時部長也非常非常的肯定\n114369\t133718\t那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的動保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心喔但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用動保警察這個部分來來做諮詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我\n134218\t161002\t的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有緣兒我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置啦\n162233\t175632\t我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在6月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了\n178957\t201092\t最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題\n202893\t222823\t那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是\n223783\t246810\t跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的\n247810\t270645\t我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案\n271550\t295356\t我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是\n298897\t324415\t我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是 有沒有\n328560\t342820\t什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年了我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調\n348298\t363118\t我是內政部警政署行政署署長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎\n364540\t380877\t目前來講廣義的這個警察當然我知道廣義的凍保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的凍檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力\n381778\t395736\t像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處\n398379\t417085\t沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自愛難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是\n418696\t434333\t我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法\n434853\t458712\t入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有後面的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在\n459392\t479628\t整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個\n481449\t502927\t私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓它合法讓它入我們的一個管理我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕\n503888\t522491\t公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎\n523672\t546565\t我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論\n548286\t573140\t我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以 我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好 那當然還有所謂這個動物照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來演繹六月底就會 上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好 謝謝部長 是謝謝主席 好 謝謝\n","txt":"好,谢谢主席,有请部长,陈部长。\n部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺、流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個\n這個議員 這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為 揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題\n我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢\n那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個動保警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢到了去年的6月28號總諮詢另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一集了也是共識我們是賦予動檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進當時部長也非常非常的肯定\n那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的動保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心喔但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用動保警察這個部分來來做諮詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我\n的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有緣兒我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置啦\n我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在6月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了\n最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題\n那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是\n跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的\n我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案\n我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是\n我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是 有沒有\n什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年了我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調\n我是內政部警政署行政署署長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎\n目前來講廣義的這個警察當然我知道廣義的凍保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的凍檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力\n像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處\n沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自愛難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是\n我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法\n入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有後面的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在\n整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個\n私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓它合法讓它入我們的一個管理我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕\n公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎\n我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論\n我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以 我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好 那當然還有所謂這個動物照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來演繹六月底就會 上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好 謝謝部長 是謝謝主席 好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.694 --> 00:08.038\n好,谢谢主席,有请部长,陈部长。\n\n00:16.428 --> 00:42.365\n部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺、流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個\n\n00:44.746 --> 01:00.473\n這個議員這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題\n\n01:01.914 --> 01:25.310\n我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢\n\n01:26.230 --> 01:34.416\n那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個動保警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢到了去年的6月28號總諮詢另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一集了也是共識我們是賦予動檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進當時部長也非常非常的肯定\n\n01:54.369 --> 02:13.718\n那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的動保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心喔但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用動保警察這個部分來來做諮詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我\n\n02:14.218 --> 02:41.002\n的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有緣兒我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置啦\n\n02:42.233 --> 02:55.632\n我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在6月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了\n\n02:58.957 --> 03:21.092\n最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題\n\n03:22.893 --> 03:42.823\n那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是\n\n03:43.783 --> 04:06.810\n跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的\n\n04:07.810 --> 04:30.645\n我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案\n\n04:31.550 --> 04:55.356\n我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是\n\n04:58.897 --> 05:24.415\n我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是有沒有\n\n05:28.560 --> 05:42.820\n什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年了我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調\n\n05:48.298 --> 06:03.118\n我是內政部警政署行政署署長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎\n\n06:04.540 --> 06:20.877\n目前來講廣義的這個警察當然我知道廣義的凍保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的凍檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力\n\n06:21.778 --> 06:35.736\n像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處\n\n06:38.379 --> 06:57.085\n沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自愛難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是\n\n06:58.696 --> 07:14.333\n我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法\n\n07:14.853 --> 07:38.712\n入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有後面的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在\n\n07:39.392 --> 07:59.628\n整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個\n\n08:01.449 --> 08:22.927\n私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓它合法讓它入我們的一個管理我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕\n\n08:23.888 --> 08:42.491\n公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎\n\n08:43.672 --> 09:06.565\n我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論\n\n09:08.286 --> 09:33.140\n我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好那當然還有所謂這個動物照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來演繹六月底就會上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好謝謝部長是謝謝主席好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.694,"end":8.038,"text":"好,谢谢主席,有请部长,陈部长。"},{"start":16.428,"end":42.365,"text":"部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺、流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個"},{"start":44.746,"end":60.473,"text":"這個議員 這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為 揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題"},{"start":61.914,"end":85.31,"text":"我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢"},{"start":86.23,"end":94.416,"text":"那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個動保警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢到了去年的6月28號總諮詢另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一集了也是共識我們是賦予動檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進當時部長也非常非常的肯定"},{"start":114.369,"end":133.718,"text":"那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的動保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心喔但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用動保警察這個部分來來做諮詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我"},{"start":134.218,"end":161.002,"text":"的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有緣兒我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置啦"},{"start":162.233,"end":175.632,"text":"我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在6月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了"},{"start":178.957,"end":201.092,"text":"最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題"},{"start":202.893,"end":222.823,"text":"那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是"},{"start":223.783,"end":246.81,"text":"跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的"},{"start":247.81,"end":270.645,"text":"我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案"},{"start":271.55,"end":295.356,"text":"我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是"},{"start":298.897,"end":324.415,"text":"我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是 有沒有"},{"start":328.56,"end":342.82,"text":"什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年了我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調"},{"start":348.298,"end":363.118,"text":"我是內政部警政署行政署署長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎"},{"start":364.54,"end":380.877,"text":"目前來講廣義的這個警察當然我知道廣義的凍保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的凍檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力"},{"start":381.778,"end":395.736,"text":"像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處"},{"start":398.379,"end":417.085,"text":"沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自愛難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是"},{"start":418.696,"end":434.333,"text":"我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法"},{"start":434.853,"end":458.712,"text":"入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有後面的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在"},{"start":459.392,"end":479.628,"text":"整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個"},{"start":481.449,"end":502.927,"text":"私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓它合法讓它入我們的一個管理我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕"},{"start":503.888,"end":522.491,"text":"公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎"},{"start":523.672,"end":546.565,"text":"我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論"},{"start":548.286,"end":573.14,"text":"我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以 我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好 那當然還有所謂這個動物照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來演繹六月底就會 上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好 謝謝部長 是謝謝主席 好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時55分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長，還記得不久前新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年，掌握了越南移工捕殺流浪貓犬跟山羌，甚至石虎，這樣的一個案件。好不容易他們向彰化的動保處檢舉，但是動保處卻以沒有公權力為由，所以他們轉而向警方投訴，後來警方也只能從旁去協助，最後他們是找了江和樹議員，但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分揭露了，他們苦追了半年，原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員，結果目前只有1位被函送，這個部分其實也凸顯了沒有公權力的問題。在去年的3月1號，我想部長應該印象還深刻……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：那時候您是代理部長，其實我已經在總質詢的時候提了，從中央到地方，我們應該要建立動保專責的一個單位，就是能夠有即時制止加害者的一個執法權力，這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出總質詢，那個時候我們有一個共識、也有一個方向。而且從2011年到2013年，關於動保警察的議題其實我們的民團就已經不斷地在倡議了，但是到了去年的6月28號另外一次總質詢時，部長應該也又被我問到這一題，共識也是我們要賦予動檢員司法警察權，往這個方向來前進，當時部長也非常非常的肯定，我們當然也對所謂動保警察編制的部分，抱了一份的信心。但是到了去年11月13號，我在經濟委員會再次的針對動保警察質詢，那時候部長也承諾會納入委員的意見，也就是我的意見，來提出修法的版本。","但非常遺憾，昨天我們向農業部動保司確認，給我們的答案是「賦予司法警察權，將對體制造成嚴重的負擔，實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的訓練，所以不宜修法推動」。沒有法規、沒有編制，當然就不會有員額，我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個，印象中在11月13號的時候，我提出另外一個，因為在6月多質詢的時候，我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論，事實上在更早之前，在這個內閣之前也討論了，最主要是警察與動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯，當動檢員有需求的話，警察就會協助介入做處理……"],["郭委員昱晴：但往往在事件發生當下，比方一般民眾檢舉有人虐待動物，他們過去的時間其實也會拉得很長。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是時間差的問題。後來跟內政部做相關討論的時候，他們還是覺得能夠在我們自己的體制裡面做處理，所以我在11月份也曾經提到一個用「動保檢查官」，就是動檢的官，類似消保官的概念，我那時候有提出用消保官的概念來做。因為現在最重要就是跨縣市、中央跟地方還有一些要協調的部分，用動保官的方式來協調，如果說我們賦予目前動保檢查員調查權力，再輔以動保官的話，相對的也可以取代目前的動保警察。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們回過頭來講，我剛剛講動保警察這個真的是我們倡議了很久，每一個委員幾乎在部會的質詢中也都會提到這個部分，但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案。其實對很多寄予動保警察可以在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的人來說，這個答案是非常非常令人失望的答案耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，其實剛才委員所提到的，我覺得我們同仁寫得不好啦！當你入法以後，就有編制、就有員額，但沒有入法，就沒有編制、就沒有員額，所以這兩個是因果關係。"],["郭委員昱晴：答對了，所以我剛剛講了，你們是反過來嘛！你沒有法規、沒有編制，當然就不會有員額嘛！但你現在不能跟我講，因為人力不足，所以我們現在不宜修法，整個本末倒置的回應，其實……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得實務上應該是我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見，我們都是有共識的先處理，以動保警察來講，在部會之間的共識還沒有……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們的共識大概要處理多久？因為從我去年第一個會期3月1號總質詢到現在，已經過了1年了，我們還要多久？什麼時候會有一個明確的共識出來，可以讓我們有一個方向？"],["陳部長駿季：這邊應該有內政部的同仁吧，是不是？有沒有？"],["郭委員昱晴：什麼時候？我們需要知道什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：你們的態度，有沒有……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為不管之前是誰執政，到現在為止，其實動保警察這個議題，我們講了十幾年了……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我是不是可以請內政部就這個議題以部的立場說明，然後我們再來啟動協調？"],["張副組長國哲：委員好，我是內政部警政署行政組組長。針對動保警察這部分，實際上有幾點要提出報告，就是……"],["郭委員昱晴：我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間，事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好？可以嗎？"],["張副組長國哲：是，我簡單說明，目前來講，廣義的警察權……"],["郭委員昱晴：當然，我知道廣義的動保警察，警察的人力是有限的……"],["張副組長國哲：是，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識，就是我們賦予所謂的動檢員相對的有可以執法的一個公權力……"],["張副組長國哲：沒錯，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：像我剛剛講的這個例子，我們原本可以抓到三十幾個越南移工非法捕獵山羌，甚至是石虎，還有很多的流浪貓犬，本來可以抓到三十幾個，可是就因為地方的動保處「沒有公權力」，這五個字一出現，我們現在就是窒礙難行啊！本來可以抓到三十幾個，現在只有一個人被函送，這就是一個很大的問題啊！農業部拜託想一下辦法，我們往這個方面去努力，有一點共識，至少有一點成果，給大家一個期待可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想有兩個方式，一個方式是我們會再跟內政部討論賦予動保檢查員司法的權責，如果說內政部不反對，就是由農業部來處理，包括後面的訓練由他們代訓，這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法，入法以後我們就來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們講的就是我們有法規，才有編制、才有員額嘛，對不對？這個順序應該是這樣嘛，不要回答我反過來的順序，說我們人力不夠，所以沒辦法入法。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我覺得反過來是不對的，應該要有法規才有後面的編制。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，最後一個是有關公立收容所爆倉的問題，從2017年零撲殺之後，不管是空間也好、環境也好，其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所有內部收容的問題。我們來看，收容逾5年以上的占20%，但你要知道，流浪貓狗如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達5年以上，幾乎都是老的、幾乎都是生病，也因為這樣，很多所謂私人的收容所有很多的愛爸愛媽私人收容所應運而生。其實我們跟動保處真的也都有在溝通，不管是地方的動保處也好，或者是農業部動保司也好，我們都有在講怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂私人的收容所，讓它合法納入我們的管理，我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區，來做這樣子的推廣。一方面減輕公立收容所收容數量的壓力；二方面也讓我們的生命教育從小扎根，讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區，可以來學習生命教育的園區，對他們來講，其實我們真的是可以創造兩贏的局面，針對這個部分，我們可以再進一步研議嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員所提到的，不能完全只靠公立的收容所，怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為協同、協助的角色，這是非常重要的。雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把民間的收容納入，但是我想委員們有一些版本有納入，到審查的時候，我想我們共同朝這個方向來討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們現在得到您朝共同方向的答案，但不要讓我聽了之後，這一屆做完之後，我還是聽不到真正的真正的方向，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我想接下來逐條討論的時候，我們就把它確定下來。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。當然還有所謂的動物照護技術士，但因為時間關係，我們用書面的，到時候再請農業部一起研議。"],["陳部長駿季：上次有跟您承諾，6月底就會送出相關的指引。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請羅廷瑋委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}}