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0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:23,367\n主委好我想剛才黃士堅委員一份天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金融網會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正\n\n2\n00:00:24,828 --> 00:00:40,920\n對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎\n\n3\n00:00:44,463 --> 00:01:08,797\n但主委我想請教你你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想當然是因為我的理解我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活\n\n4\n00:01:09,597 --> 00:01:31,025\n所以他但是這個標準呢就要定一個標準讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看那我們當初會定這個就是因為這是因為強制執行而來所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講沒有錯就是很多人對這個有很有意見因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽還有很多的意見以後我們剛才跟很多委員關係我也提過\n\n5\n00:01:33,687 --> 00:01:52,076\n這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個\n\n6\n00:01:54,636 --> 00:02:09,087\n以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元\n\n7\n00:02:12,728 --> 00:02:30,045\n那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元\n\n8\n00:02:33,408 --> 00:02:41,794\n所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元\n\n9\n00:02:49,059 --> 00:03:09,688\n扣除他住的需求生活費只剩下7300多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎顯然是太低了\n\n10\n00:03:10,228 --> 00:03:31,863\n也就是說一個弱勢的保險人腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年但是突然間他面臨困境他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金房屋租金等等剩下的生活費不多了\n\n11\n00:03:32,643 --> 00:03:58,654\n但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了\n\n12\n00:04:00,386 --> 00:04:24,546\n所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異\n\n13\n00:04:25,467 --> 00:04:49,261\n再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月嘛大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個\n\n14\n00:04:52,723 --> 00:05:10,073\n債權跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你當然我是跟你保險他的精神跟目的在哪裡\n\n15\n00:05:10,993 --> 00:05:20,670\n保險就是要保障我們生活上如果發生萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障\n\n16\n00:05:21,784 --> 00:05:40,662\n那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的\n\n17\n00:05:41,903 --> 00:05:58,911\n老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想\n\n18\n00:05:59,571 --> 00:06:28,208\n很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣的一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎\n\n19\n00:06:30,149 --> 00:06:45,378\n我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的這就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況\n\n20\n00:06:46,559 --> 00:07:04,678\n另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講那個標準最高做一個基準這個用個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高做一個標準就是其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本\n\n21\n00:07:05,979 --> 00:07:31,866\n這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我個人也認為說這樣以這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益我希望你們能做就是不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本\n\n22\n00:07:32,526 --> 00:07:45,797\n我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人的尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的\n\n23\n00:07:49,840 --> 00:08:16,201\n但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦\n\n24\n00:08:18,082 --> 00:08:38,523\n我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單這樣的實務所以司法院的意見你是不採納的不是我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重\n\n25\n00:08:39,344 --> 00:09:00,081\n尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛剛很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣啊\n\n26\n00:09:00,441 --> 00:09:11,143\n那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得會並同來討論的好以上好謝謝好謝謝思銘接著請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝有請諸位是請諸位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t23367\t主委好我想剛才黃士堅委員一份天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金融網會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正\n24828\t40920\t對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎\n44463\t68797\t但主委 我想請教你 你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想 當然是因為我的理解 我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後 強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活\n69597\t91025\t所以他但是這個標準呢就要定一個標準讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看那我們當初會定這個就是因為這是因為強制執行而來所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講沒有錯就是很多人對這個有很有意見因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽還有很多的意見以後我們剛才跟很多委員關係我也提過\n93687\t112076\t這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個\n114636\t129087\t以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元\n132728\t150045\t那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元\n153408\t161794\t所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元\n169059\t189688\t扣除他住的需求生活費只剩下7300多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎顯然是太低了\n190228\t211863\t也就是說一個弱勢的保險人 腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好 所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年 但是突然間他面臨困境 他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金 房屋租金等等 剩下的生活費不多了\n212643\t238654\t但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了\n240386\t264546\t所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異\n265467\t289261\t再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月嘛大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個\n292723\t310073\t債權跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你當然我是跟你保險他的精神跟目的在哪裡\n310993\t320670\t保險就是要保障我們生活上如果發生萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障\n321784\t340662\t那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的\n341903\t358911\t老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想\n359571\t388208\t很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣的一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎\n390149\t405378\t我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的這就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況\n406559\t424678\t另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講那個標準最高做一個基準這個用個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高做一個標準就是其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本\n425979\t451866\t這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我個人也認為說這樣以這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益我希望你們能做就是不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本\n452526\t465797\t我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人的尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的\n469840\t496201\t但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦\n498082\t518523\t我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單這樣的實務所以司法院的意見你是不採納的不是 我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重\n519344\t540081\t尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛剛很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣啊\n540441\t551143\t那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得會並同來討論的好 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝思銘接著請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝有請諸位是 請諸位\n","txt":"主委好我想剛才黃士堅委員一份天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金融網會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正\n對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎\n但主委 我想請教你 你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想 當然是因為我的理解 我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後 強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活\n所以他但是這個標準呢就要定一個標準讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看那我們當初會定這個就是因為這是因為強制執行而來所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講沒有錯就是很多人對這個有很有意見因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽還有很多的意見以後我們剛才跟很多委員關係我也提過\n這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個\n以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元\n那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元\n所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元\n扣除他住的需求生活費只剩下7300多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎顯然是太低了\n也就是說一個弱勢的保險人 腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好 所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年 但是突然間他面臨困境 他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金 房屋租金等等 剩下的生活費不多了\n但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了\n所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異\n再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月嘛大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個\n債權跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你當然我是跟你保險他的精神跟目的在哪裡\n保險就是要保障我們生活上如果發生萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障\n那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的\n老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想\n很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣的一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎\n我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的這就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況\n另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講那個標準最高做一個基準這個用個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高做一個標準就是其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本\n這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我個人也認為說這樣以這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益我希望你們能做就是不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本\n我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人的尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的\n但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦\n我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單這樣的實務所以司法院的意見你是不採納的不是 我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重\n尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛剛很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣啊\n那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得會並同來討論的好 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝思銘接著請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝有請諸位是 請諸位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:23.367\n主委好我想剛才黃士堅委員一份天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金融網會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正\n\n00:24.828 --> 00:40.920\n對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎\n\n00:44.463 --> 01:08.797\n但主委我想請教你你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想當然是因為我的理解我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活\n\n01:09.597 --> 01:31.025\n所以他但是這個標準呢就要定一個標準讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看那我們當初會定這個就是因為這是因為強制執行而來所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講沒有錯就是很多人對這個有很有意見因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽還有很多的意見以後我們剛才跟很多委員關係我也提過\n\n01:33.687 --> 01:52.076\n這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個\n\n01:54.636 --> 02:09.087\n以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元\n\n02:12.728 --> 02:30.045\n那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元\n\n02:33.408 --> 02:41.794\n所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元\n\n02:49.059 --> 03:09.688\n扣除他住的需求生活費只剩下7300多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎顯然是太低了\n\n03:10.228 --> 03:31.863\n也就是說一個弱勢的保險人腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年但是突然間他面臨困境他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金房屋租金等等剩下的生活費不多了\n\n03:32.643 --> 03:58.654\n但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了\n\n04:00.386 --> 04:24.546\n所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異\n\n04:25.467 --> 04:49.261\n再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月嘛大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個\n\n04:52.723 --> 05:10.073\n債權跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你當然我是跟你保險他的精神跟目的在哪裡\n\n05:10.993 --> 05:20.670\n保險就是要保障我們生活上如果發生萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障\n\n05:21.784 --> 05:40.662\n那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的\n\n05:41.903 --> 05:58.911\n老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想\n\n05:59.571 --> 06:28.208\n很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣的一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎\n\n06:30.149 --> 06:45.378\n我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的這就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況\n\n06:46.559 --> 07:04.678\n另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講那個標準最高做一個基準這個用個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高做一個標準就是其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本\n\n07:05.979 --> 07:31.866\n這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我個人也認為說這樣以這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益我希望你們能做就是不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本\n\n07:32.526 --> 07:45.797\n我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人的尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的\n\n07:49.840 --> 08:16.201\n但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦\n\n08:18.082 --> 08:38.523\n我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單這樣的實務所以司法院的意見你是不採納的不是我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重\n\n08:39.344 --> 09:00.081\n尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛剛很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣啊\n\n09:00.441 --> 09:11.143\n那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得會並同來討論的好以上好謝謝好謝謝思銘接著請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝有請諸位是請諸位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":23.367,"text":"主委好我想剛才黃士堅委員一份天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金融網會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正"},{"start":24.828,"end":40.92,"text":"對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎"},{"start":44.463,"end":68.797,"text":"但主委 我想請教你 你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想 當然是因為我的理解 我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後 強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活"},{"start":69.597,"end":91.025,"text":"所以他但是這個標準呢就要定一個標準讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看那我們當初會定這個就是因為這是因為強制執行而來所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講沒有錯就是很多人對這個有很有意見因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽還有很多的意見以後我們剛才跟很多委員關係我也提過"},{"start":93.687,"end":112.076,"text":"這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個"},{"start":114.636,"end":129.087,"text":"以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元"},{"start":132.728,"end":150.045,"text":"那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元"},{"start":153.408,"end":161.794,"text":"所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元"},{"start":169.059,"end":189.688,"text":"扣除他住的需求生活費只剩下7300多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎顯然是太低了"},{"start":190.228,"end":211.863,"text":"也就是說一個弱勢的保險人 腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好 所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年 但是突然間他面臨困境 他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金 房屋租金等等 剩下的生活費不多了"},{"start":212.643,"end":238.654,"text":"但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了"},{"start":240.386,"end":264.546,"text":"所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異"},{"start":265.467,"end":289.261,"text":"再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月嘛大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個"},{"start":292.723,"end":310.073,"text":"債權跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你當然我是跟你保險他的精神跟目的在哪裡"},{"start":310.993,"end":320.67,"text":"保險就是要保障我們生活上如果發生萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障"},{"start":321.784,"end":340.662,"text":"那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的"},{"start":341.903,"end":358.911,"text":"老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想"},{"start":359.571,"end":388.208,"text":"很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣的一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎"},{"start":390.149,"end":405.378,"text":"我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的這就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況"},{"start":406.559,"end":424.678,"text":"另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講那個標準最高做一個基準這個用個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高做一個標準就是其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本"},{"start":425.979,"end":451.866,"text":"這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我個人也認為說這樣以這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益我希望你們能做就是不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本"},{"start":452.526,"end":465.797,"text":"我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人的尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的"},{"start":469.84,"end":496.201,"text":"但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦"},{"start":498.082,"end":518.523,"text":"我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單這樣的實務所以司法院的意見你是不採納的不是 我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重"},{"start":519.344,"end":540.081,"text":"尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛剛很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣啊"},{"start":540.441,"end":551.143,"text":"那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得會並同來討論的好 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝思銘接著請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝有請諸位是 請諸位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（12時23分）謝謝召委，請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主委好。剛才王世堅委員義慎填膺，對於豁免額度，可能這次金管會的修法很多委員都有意見，他也為很多弱勢族群提出他忿忿不平的看法，當然主委剛才沒有回答……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為我剛剛沒有時間回答。"],["林委員思銘：所以我現在要請問主委，今天審查保險法的修正，對於豁免執行解約金的債權金額，行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月的金額為計算基礎，但主委，我想請教你，你知不知道所謂的最低生活費所代表的意義是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我以前沒有接觸到的時候也不是很了解為什麼會有最低生活費，後來了解之後，強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上絕路，還是要有個基本的生活。"],["林委員思銘：是啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以要按照各地的生活成本訂一個標準讓大家好遵循，當初會訂是因為強制執行而來，所以我們就依循。當然剛剛委員講的沒有錯，很多人也很有意見，因為保險畢竟不太相同，所以我們經過這次的公聽會，還有聽取很多的意見以後，而且針對很多委員的關心，我剛剛也提過，基於簡政便民，我們可以把各地的標準用統一的方式來做。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我告訴你一個概念，其實最低生活費是用來當成是否可以申請為低收入戶的標準，以臺北市為例，臺北市的最低生活費是多少呢？是2萬379元；以六都來看，最低是臺南市的1萬5,515元，在上一次財政委員會的公聽會中，針對要不要把房屋租金納為特別扣除額一事，我有去蒐集相關的數據，像內政部公告去年臺北市的平均房屋租金是1萬3,054元，以現在臺北市最低生活費是2萬379元為例，扣除房屋租金1萬3,054元，他僅剩7,325元，即扣除他住的需求費用，生活費只剩下七千三百多，所以這是一個非常低的生活標準。","我認為這一次修法，若以最低生活費作為這一次豁免的計算基礎，顯然是太低了，也就是說，一個弱勢的保險人、要保人，過去或許他生活過得很好，買了一張保單，也繳了很多年，但是突然間他面臨困境，成為低收入戶，而他也還要去繳他的房屋租金等等，剩下的生活費也不多了，但是他可能突然間遭遇到什麼大的問題，所以他今天欠債了，但是他過去所繳的保險費，卻因為你用最低收入來計算，造成他過去辛辛苦苦買的，對他來說是一個非常小的保障的保險契約，就因此而被剝奪了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的說明，前面很多委員也很關心，我剛剛也解釋過，我們提的這個標準只是當時因為依循強制執行法的概念，剛才有提到，如果會增加很多成本，而且有委員建議我們採用同一個標準，比如像委員有建議用最低工資，這是一個統一的標準，不會因為地區的差異受到影響。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：再來，像剛才王委員提到額度的部分，我們也覺得這要有社會共識，即我們持開放的態度，大家都可以討論，剛才委員提的是一個月，我們的版本是三個月，若大家可以有更高的共識，我們都表示尊重，這部分我剛才已經說明過了。"],["林委員思銘：所以主委贊成這一次行政院的版本、你們提出來的版本，確實是不足以衡平債權人、債務人的權益？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們的考量是這樣的，因為債權人、債務人的關係非常的複雜，但是之前公聽會的時候，很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法……"],["林委員思銘：主委，我要告訴你保險的精神跟目的在哪裡，保險就是要保障我們的生活，如果、萬一發生任何問題的話，能有一個卑微的、最基本的生活保障，如果連這樣基本的生活保障，因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了，這就失去保險的目的，所以剛才王世堅還一直強調，過去在招攬保險時講得多好聽，這個絕對不會被強制執行、不會被扣押啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，其實我本身擔任教保險的老師快30年了……"],["林委員思銘：你是專家啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我非常清楚，其實保險契約本身來講，如果純粹以保障來看的話，這個應該不構成強制執行，只是我們很明顯的看到，最近幾年很多商品的演進，很多人的一些保單確實是拿來當儲蓄用的，我想各位都很清楚，這次保單的部分會變成這樣，是因為有些人拿來那樣做，才會引發這次大法庭做出這樣的解釋，所以我才說我自己教保險三十幾年，過去這都不會是個議題，當然我們希望趕快來解決這個問題，所以我們才提這個修法，剛才也講了，我們也權衡各方，但是對於這個部分的態度，我們是予以尊重，希望大家能有更高的共識。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我這次修法的版本，你贊成嗎？我是認為應以我們當年度政府公告最低工資的三個月金額作為基數。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這有一個好的地方，即它是確定的，沒有因為地區而有差別。"],["林委員思銘：這就很確定，不會各個地方有不一樣的情況。"],["彭主任委員金隆：另外也有委員提出，就是以剛剛講的那個標準的最高做為一個基準，比如說以最高的直轄市就是臺北市，以它的最高做為一個標準，其實我覺得大家立意都相同，就是不要有地域的差別。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我的結論是這樣子，我希望你們考慮支持本席的版本，這個版本我也經過深思熟慮，我個人也認為以我們政府公告基本工資來做計算的話，這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人，以及我們被保險人或者要保人的相關權益，我希望你們不要侷限於現在這樣一個修法版本，而是能夠提出更好的版本，我想司法院其實也是支持的，現行的版本可能對我們整個對於債權人或者債務人的權益，尤其對債務人的權益保障是不夠的。但是它也提出了一個觀點，如果認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約，也就是以拆單方式來規避執行方面的疑慮，也可以斟酌修訂豁免執行保險契約筆數的規定，這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們有仔細評估過拆單一事，我覺得這個可能性真的不高，因為保險拆單太辛苦。第二個，現在我們的管理實務上、監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受故意拆單這樣的方式。"],["林委員思銘：所以司法院的意見你是不採納的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我覺得我們的版本更能夠簡政便民，就是用逐單的概念來做。"],["林委員思銘：我知道是簡便的，但是用最低生活費實在是太低了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛有說額度的部分我們可以討論，會尊重大家審查的結果，沒有問題，剛才很多人也提出這樣一個看法，我覺得這個大家可以來討論，我們是持尊重、開放的態度。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的版本你會支持吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個方向剛才已經確定了，就是我們朝一個確定的標準，至於說……"],["林委員思銘：但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員，到底你們的看法是怎麼樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才有講過，只要能比現在的成本還要下降的話，我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個提案的方向是非常的類似，我覺得可以併同來討論。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝思銘。","接著請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}}