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Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:31:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:42:55+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"160821","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160821","tool":"pyannote","id":"160821-pyannote"},"job_id":"1Pfzt4nD8rA67Qv4","queued_at":"2025-05-01 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{\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"驅\"}, {\"word\": \"離\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 474.207, \"end\": 474.227, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}]}, {\"start\": 476.823, \"end\": 476.963, \"text\": \"當時有辦法這樣做嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 476.823, \"end\": 476.923, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 476.923, \"end\": 476.943, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 476.943, \"end\": 476.963, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 499.051, \"end\": 513.51, \"text\": \"因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 499.051, \"end\": 499.572, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 499.572, \"end\": 499.692, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 499.692, \"end\": 499.832, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": 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561.975, \"text\": \"彼此之間 我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"彼\", \"start\": 532.795, \"end\": 532.975, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 532.975, \"end\": 533.136, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 533.136, \"end\": 533.776, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 533.776, \"end\": 533.876, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 533.876, \"end\": 534.496, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 534.496, \"end\": 534.897, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 534.897, \"end\": 535.237, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 535.237, \"end\": 535.357, \"score\": 0.557}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 535.357, \"end\": 535.517, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 535.517, \"end\": 535.717, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 667.755, \"end\": 668.636, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 668.636, \"end\": 669.116, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 669.116, \"end\": 669.296, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 669.296, \"end\": 669.476, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"欣\", \"start\": 669.476, \"end\": 669.717, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"淳\", \"start\": 669.717, \"end\": 669.897, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 669.897, \"end\": 669.917, \"score\": 0.277}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,434 --> 00:00:11,647\n謝謝主席我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,514 --> 00:00:40,811\n委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們\n\n3\n00:00:41,391 --> 00:01:03,840\n目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎\n\n4\n00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:33,668\n有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文\n\n5\n00:01:34,648 --> 00:01:58,090\n但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出\n\n6\n00:01:59,351 --> 00:02:18,548\n農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧\n\n7\n00:02:19,758 --> 00:02:38,058\n我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣\n\n8\n00:02:39,199 --> 00:03:01,060\n不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們\n\n9\n00:03:02,254 --> 00:03:16,726\n認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到\n\n10\n00:03:17,635 --> 00:03:46,528\n我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來\n\n11\n00:03:47,268 --> 00:04:09,458\n可能完全可能本來一百家可能剩下十家但是也不能因為但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管應該要有一個輔導期\n\n12\n00:04:11,019 --> 00:04:29,513\n那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋\n\n13\n00:04:32,495 --> 00:04:57,849\n那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說齁這個動物警察的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他他不是警察啊但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣的我想齁我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要\n\n14\n00:04:59,037 --> 00:05:13,688\n進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助他目前現況是這樣現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差對有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法\n\n15\n00:05:14,368 --> 00:05:36,627\n進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予\n\n16\n00:05:38,349 --> 00:05:51,487\n動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱他為警察但是他具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些\n\n17\n00:05:52,884 --> 00:06:10,390\n入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了\n\n18\n00:06:11,310 --> 00:06:33,797\n那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動\n\n19\n00:06:34,437 --> 00:06:49,812\n好那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊是那不幸在花蓮地方然後它應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是路管員對\n\n20\n00:06:50,993 --> 00:07:08,304\n那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有了一個有那個動作就是對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍\n\n21\n00:07:09,525 --> 00:07:27,267\n那我想起就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕\n\n22\n00:07:28,588 --> 00:07:54,227\n就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我就想說這件事情對於這個農業部或對於我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該\n\n23\n00:07:56,823 --> 00:07:56,963\n當時有辦法這樣做嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:19,051 --> 00:08:33,510\n因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦\n\n25\n00:08:34,472 --> 00:08:51,915\n所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦\n\n26\n00:08:52,795 --> 00:09:21,975\n彼此之間我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方\n\n27\n00:09:22,575 --> 00:09:29,879\n避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻\n\n28\n00:09:34,042 --> 00:09:38,766\n六百隻左右,六百隻左右那這個數字應該是有保護成功吧這個數字跟五年前之前比起來剛才有委員說已經增加六百隻是不是還是保育的動力\n\n29\n00:09:56,122 --> 00:10:12,100\n就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣蟲是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的侵襲我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是\n\n30\n00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:29,325\n住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說\n\n31\n00:10:30,285 --> 00:10:52,179\n特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了然後受傷\n\n32\n00:10:52,919 --> 00:11:09,917\n被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6434\t11647\t謝謝主席我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長\n19514\t40811\t委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們\n41391\t63840\t目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎\n66060\t93668\t有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文\n94648\t118090\t但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出\n119351\t138548\t農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好 那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧\n139758\t158058\t我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣\n159199\t181060\t不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們\n182254\t196726\t認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到\n197635\t226528\t我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來\n227268\t249458\t可能完全 可能本來一百家 可能剩下十家但是也不能因為 但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣 我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管 應該要有一個輔導期\n251019\t269513\t那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好 那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋\n272495\t297849\t那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說齁這個動物警察的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他他不是警察啊但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣的我想齁我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要\n299037\t313688\t進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助他目前現況是這樣現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差對有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法\n314368\t336627\t進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予\n338349\t351487\t動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱他為警察但是他具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些\n352884\t370390\t入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了\n371310\t393797\t那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動\n394437\t409812\t好 那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊是那不幸在花蓮地方然後它應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是路管員對\n410993\t428304\t那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有了一個有那個動作就是對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍\n429525\t447267\t那我想起就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕\n448588\t474227\t就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我就想說這件事情對於這個農業部或對於我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該\n476823\t476963\t當時有辦法這樣做嗎?\n499051\t513510\t因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦\n514472\t531915\t所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦\n532795\t561975\t彼此之間 我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方\n562575\t569879\t避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻\n574042\t578766\t六百隻左右,六百隻左右那這個數字應該是有保護成功吧這個數字跟五年前之前比起來剛才有委員說已經增加六百隻是不是還是保育的動力\n596122\t612100\t就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣蟲是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的侵襲我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是\n612800\t629325\t住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說\n630285\t652179\t特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了然後受傷\n652919\t669917\t被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長\n委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們\n目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎\n有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文\n但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出\n農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好 那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧\n我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣\n不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們\n認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到\n我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來\n可能完全 可能本來一百家 可能剩下十家但是也不能因為 但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣 我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管 應該要有一個輔導期\n那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好 那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋\n那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說齁這個動物警察的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他他不是警察啊但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣的我想齁我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要\n進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助他目前現況是這樣現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差對有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法\n進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予\n動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱他為警察但是他具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些\n入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了\n那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動\n好 那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊是那不幸在花蓮地方然後它應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是路管員對\n那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有了一個有那個動作就是對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍\n那我想起就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕\n就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我就想說這件事情對於這個農業部或對於我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該\n當時有辦法這樣做嗎?\n因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦\n所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦\n彼此之間 我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方\n避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻\n六百隻左右,六百隻左右那這個數字應該是有保護成功吧這個數字跟五年前之前比起來剛才有委員說已經增加六百隻是不是還是保育的動力\n就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣蟲是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的侵襲我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是\n住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說\n特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了然後受傷\n被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.434 --> 00:11.647\n謝謝主席我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長\n\n00:19.514 --> 00:40.811\n委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們\n\n00:41.391 --> 01:03.840\n目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎\n\n01:06.060 --> 01:33.668\n有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文\n\n01:34.648 --> 01:58.090\n但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出\n\n01:59.351 --> 02:18.548\n農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧\n\n02:19.758 --> 02:38.058\n我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣\n\n02:39.199 --> 03:01.060\n不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們\n\n03:02.254 --> 03:16.726\n認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到\n\n03:17.635 --> 03:46.528\n我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來\n\n03:47.268 --> 04:09.458\n可能完全可能本來一百家可能剩下十家但是也不能因為但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管應該要有一個輔導期\n\n04:11.019 --> 04:29.513\n那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋\n\n04:32.495 --> 04:57.849\n那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說齁這個動物警察的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他他不是警察啊但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣的我想齁我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要\n\n04:59.037 --> 05:13.688\n進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助他目前現況是這樣現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差對有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法\n\n05:14.368 --> 05:36.627\n進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予\n\n05:38.349 --> 05:51.487\n動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱他為警察但是他具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些\n\n05:52.884 --> 06:10.390\n入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了\n\n06:11.310 --> 06:33.797\n那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動\n\n06:34.437 --> 06:49.812\n好那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊是那不幸在花蓮地方然後它應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是路管員對\n\n06:50.993 --> 07:08.304\n那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有了一個有那個動作就是對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍\n\n07:09.525 --> 07:27.267\n那我想起就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕\n\n07:28.588 --> 07:54.227\n就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我就想說這件事情對於這個農業部或對於我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該\n\n07:56.823 --> 07:56.963\n當時有辦法這樣做嗎?\n\n08:19.051 --> 08:33.510\n因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦\n\n08:34.472 --> 08:51.915\n所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦\n\n08:52.795 --> 09:21.975\n彼此之間我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方\n\n09:22.575 --> 09:29.879\n避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻\n\n09:34.042 --> 09:38.766\n六百隻左右,六百隻左右那這個數字應該是有保護成功吧這個數字跟五年前之前比起來剛才有委員說已經增加六百隻是不是還是保育的動力\n\n09:56.122 --> 10:12.100\n就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣蟲是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的侵襲我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是\n\n10:12.800 --> 10:29.325\n住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說\n\n10:30.285 --> 10:52.179\n特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了然後受傷\n\n10:52.919 --> 11:09.917\n被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.434,"end":11.647,"text":"謝謝主席我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":19.514,"end":40.811,"text":"委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們"},{"start":41.391,"end":63.84,"text":"目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎"},{"start":66.06,"end":93.668,"text":"有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文"},{"start":94.648,"end":118.09,"text":"但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出"},{"start":119.351,"end":138.548,"text":"農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好 那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧"},{"start":139.758,"end":158.058,"text":"我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣"},{"start":159.199,"end":181.06,"text":"不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們"},{"start":182.254,"end":196.726,"text":"認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到"},{"start":197.635,"end":226.528,"text":"我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來"},{"start":227.268,"end":249.458,"text":"可能完全 可能本來一百家 可能剩下十家但是也不能因為 但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣 我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管 應該要有一個輔導期"},{"start":251.019,"end":269.513,"text":"那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好 那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋"},{"start":272.495,"end":297.849,"text":"那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說齁這個動物警察的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他他不是警察啊但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣的我想齁我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要"},{"start":299.037,"end":313.688,"text":"進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助他目前現況是這樣現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差對有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法"},{"start":314.368,"end":336.627,"text":"進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予"},{"start":338.349,"end":351.487,"text":"動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱他為警察但是他具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些"},{"start":352.884,"end":370.39,"text":"入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了"},{"start":371.31,"end":393.797,"text":"那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動"},{"start":394.437,"end":409.812,"text":"好 那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊是那不幸在花蓮地方然後它應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是路管員對"},{"start":410.993,"end":428.304,"text":"那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有了一個有那個動作就是對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍"},{"start":429.525,"end":447.267,"text":"那我想起就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕"},{"start":448.588,"end":474.227,"text":"就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我就想說這件事情對於這個農業部或對於我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該"},{"start":476.823,"end":476.963,"text":"當時有辦法這樣做嗎?"},{"start":499.051,"end":513.51,"text":"因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦"},{"start":514.472,"end":531.915,"text":"所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦"},{"start":532.795,"end":561.975,"text":"彼此之間 我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方"},{"start":562.575,"end":569.879,"text":"避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻"},{"start":574.042,"end":578.766,"text":"六百隻左右,六百隻左右那這個數字應該是有保護成功吧這個數字跟五年前之前比起來剛才有委員說已經增加六百隻是不是還是保育的動力"},{"start":596.122,"end":612.1,"text":"就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣蟲是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的侵襲我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是"},{"start":612.8,"end":629.325,"text":"住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說"},{"start":630.285,"end":652.179,"text":"特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了然後受傷"},{"start":652.919,"end":669.917,"text":"被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1102,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時31分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。早上我在做提案說明的時候我有特別提到行政院的版本還沒有來，請問一下，行政院的版本現在是卡在哪裡？何時會過來？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以送立法院，剛才我也跟謝衣鳯召委提到，我們目標是下個禮拜希望協調行政院，能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告，院會報告以後，在5月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議。"],["李委員坤城：所以這樣聽起來，在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：那邊已經審查完了，最後一關就是要在院會報告。"],["李委員坤城：審查完，基本上有什麼大問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有一些問題，但是經過溝通，到目前為止，版本大概都已經定案了。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為本席有提案，我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長討論，當然第一個，你們現在有提出關於寵物食品安全管理法，它是另外一個法了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：這個法現在也是在預告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文，但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的，從原料的來源到生產製造，到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性，所以很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法。"],["李委員坤城：對，我自己也提出來要設一個專法。"],["陳部長駿季：您也說要專法，所以這個專法現在已經完成了我們部裡面法規會的審查，我是要求5月底一定要出農業部進到行政院，然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院。"],["李委員坤城：好，這個還算滿明確的。第二個，在加重刑責這部分，農業部的版本呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是有加重，我們也同意這個方向。至於刑度跟它的罰鍰，併科罰金這個部分到底是多少萬，可能到時候版本提出來的時候，大家再來討論。"],["李委員坤城：所以刑責跟你們預告的一樣嘛？就是有加重。"],["陳部長駿季：有加重，對。"],["李委員坤城：有加重，跟預告的一樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為不同的委員有不同的版本，到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度、刑責跟它的罰款是大家可以接受的。"],["李委員坤城：好，我早上有提到，現在民間有一些動物收容所，它其實養得滿多的，規模也滿大的，我是提案說要納管，你們是不是認為如果納管進去的話，可能會衍生其他的問題？可是不納管也不行啦！我的意思是說，這部分你們要怎麼樣處理？"],["陳部長駿季：不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到，我非常認同所有的動物收容不能只靠公家單位，一定要公家單位和民間做協同作業的方式，雖然說現在民間的收容所不管是它土地的合法性，或是設施設備的完整度，還有它的衛生安全，可能都有一些差異性，如果直接納管，其實同仁是擔心直接納管，相關的規範一出來，可能本來100家只剩下10家，但是也不能因為……"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道，你們怕因為這樣子而衍生其他的問題，但是又不能不管。"],["陳部長駿季：但是也不能因為這樣子而不做，所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦！等於說訂了這樣，我想方向是大家都認同，透過公家跟民間的一起，但是相對的，民間的整個納管應該要有一個輔導期，在這個輔導期讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來收容，然後才真正開始實施，我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是說，有關民間的部分還是會做管理就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後管理你們說會有一個……"],["陳部長駿季：希望有一個輔導期。"],["李委員坤城：輔導期。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，另外一個也是大家滿關心的，就是動物警察的職權，可是我剛剛聽部長講的概念，應該是說他不是警察，他是類似動物檢查官的意思嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對，消保官的概念。"],["李委員坤城：消保官的概念，那個概念是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：目前實務上就是當有人檢舉，然後我們的動保檢查員去訪查的時候，如果需要進一步做調查，就會通知警察單位來協助。"],["李委員坤城：目前的現況是這樣子。"],["陳部長駿季：現在是這樣，但是我們也知道它可能有點時間差，所以有很多委員說這種時間差會導致很多……"],["李委員坤城：他沒有辦法及時進去處理。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以希望有一個動保警察，但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務，這是屬於內政部的，那跟內政部討論，警察本身還有很多業務嘛！所以我們基本上也尊重內政部……"],["李委員坤城：好，如果不是用動物警察這個權力的話，有什麼其他可以去縮短這一個……"],["陳部長駿季：剛才也有委員提到，就是我們賦予動物檢查人員司法職權，我不一定稱他為警察，但是他具有司法職權的部分，如果大家認同這個方向的時候，也許我們可以在入法以後透過後面的這些訓練，但是我也必須提醒，現在的動保檢查人員考試的科目，如果是高考進來的話，跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的職權，這些專業的要求就不一樣了哦！可能都要重新針對人力做相關的調整。這個部分如果後續在逐條討論的時候大家有一致的共識，農業部的立場基本上也是希望朝這個方向，就是有更好的、更有效率的，但是也考量到部會之間，我們也希望大家彼此尊重，找到一個平衡點我們再來推動。"],["李委員坤城：好，最後一個問題請教，這是比較不幸的事情，在4月21日有一隻臺灣黑熊不幸在花蓮地方被射殺，牠應該是被林業署的管理員，好像是……"],["陳部長駿季：護管員。"],["李委員坤城：當然我看整個流程來講，他是為了要保護自己，因為那隻黑熊已經有那個動作，就是……"],["陳部長駿季：牠當下在殺一隻狗。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為有可能對人造成危害，所以那一位管理員有開槍。我想起在兩、三年前也有一隻臺灣黑熊，還有寫成一本書，就是「未完的旅程：一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄」，也是一隻臺灣黑熊要回到牠的家鄉，回到牠住的地方大雪山，可是在回程的過程當中，也是到了人類居住的地方，也是引起人類要自我保護，然後也射殺了這隻黑熊，那我就想說這件事情對於農業部或對於林業署來講，有沒有什麼要檢討或是改進的地方？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間，其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候，我們做驅離就應該往更遠的方向去驅離，因為黑熊如果習慣去吃這些雞，去吃這些東西，牠有食物來源就不容易離開，所以那個時候如果在第一時間能夠將這隻黑熊往更深山或更遠的地方去驅離，也能夠避免這樣的情況。"],["李委員坤城：當時候有辦法這樣做嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：因為我沒有在現場，我不是很瞭解，我們也曾經檢討過，但是相對的我們並沒有抓到牠，我們人去驅嚇牠的時候牠就跑掉了，以野生動物來講，牠跑掉了我們不會去追牠、去抓捕牠。因為當下在處理的時候是比較黑暗，以那隻熊的個體，加上牠當下剛好在吃那隻狗，所以牠有護食物的動作，也許牠有受到驚嚇，我相信牠看到人也會怕啦！我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的，所以我們也不會去究責他開槍殺死野保動物。"],["李委員坤城：他本身也是布農族的原住民嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：他應該也是布農族的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為他自身安全受到影響，所以後面的檢討，其實我覺得後續如果還有發生這種情形的話，我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離到更遠的地方，避免再度來侵害我們的鄉村。"],["李委員坤城：我再問一下，現在知道臺灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：600隻左右。"],["李委員坤城：600隻左右。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個數字應該是有保護成功吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個數字跟5年前比起來咧？"],["陳部長駿季：族群有增加啦！剛才有委員說已經增加到600隻，是不是還是保育類動物？"],["李委員坤城：當然是啊！還是啊！就跟石虎一樣，都是保育類的動物啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我覺得臺灣黑熊是臺灣滿具有特色的一種動物。"],["李委員坤城：但是如果牠數量多，然後現在因為牠的侵襲，我看牠的路徑也會到低海拔的地方，接下來要怎麼去教導住在附近的人或是遊客，關於人和熊之間如何和諧相處這部分，我覺得可能要多一些指導原則出來吧！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我也跟委員報告，我們現在推動生態給付的概念，特別是在原民部落的部分，他可以領一些生態給付，然後跟我們農業部門一起合作，遇到黑熊能夠通報我們，然後我們來協助處理，也因為這個績效做得很好，所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺、被獵捕的機會變少了，然後受傷被通報的，我們能夠及時救回的個案也越來越多，所以牠的族群是有越來越上升，後續我們會持續用生態給付的方式，讓原民部落跟我們做共同守護的動作。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","現在請吳沛憶委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}}