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307.399, \"text\": \"但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 290.413, \"end\": 290.513, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 290.513, \"end\": 290.753, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 290.753, \"end\": 290.853, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 290.853, \"end\": 291.233, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"客\", \"start\": 291.233, \"end\": 291.453, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 291.453, \"end\": 291.613, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 291.613, \"end\": 291.854, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 291.854, \"end\": 291.994, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 291.994, \"end\": 292.154, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 292.154, \"end\": 292.234, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 292.234, \"end\": 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623.628, \"end\": 623.748, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 623.748, \"end\": 623.888, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 623.888, \"end\": 623.988, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 623.988, \"end\": 624.148, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 624.148, \"end\": 624.288, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 624.288, \"end\": 624.388, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 624.388, \"end\": 624.408, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 624.408, \"end\": 624.448, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 624.448, \"end\": 624.508, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 624.508, \"end\": 624.528, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,969 --> 00:00:15,199\n好謝謝主席主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好我們吳代董事長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:21,004 --> 00:00:49,866\n部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買\n\n3\n00:00:51,147 --> 00:01:04,607\n那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該一提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教\n\n4\n00:01:06,831 --> 00:01:28,824\n部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處部長我們先繼續看下去\n\n5\n00:01:29,304 --> 00:01:57,537\n那根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果有56%的人認為知情時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛\n\n6\n00:01:58,177 --> 00:02:15,053\n那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下\n\n7\n00:02:18,434 --> 00:02:39,478\n主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條是上一次本席質詢的時候您也在台下嘛那沒關係我們繼續我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見的\n\n8\n00:02:40,194 --> 00:03:09,038\n沒錯這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全程要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全程來做錄影呢\n\n9\n00:03:10,887 --> 00:03:35,768\n這個我們可以來討論好不好我們先董事長今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被端端起於\n\n10\n00:03:36,408 --> 00:04:03,139\n就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有戴隆市長那其實在其他部門密錄器的使用已經早就行之有年啦不只是我們看到可以看到消防機關還有財政部還有地方的社會局都有建制規範\n\n11\n00:04:04,580 --> 00:04:29,870\n跟委員報告好因為我們跟第一剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事情況開啟嗎到目前至少我認為應該是這個應該我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是真的不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟人家溝通一下\n\n12\n00:04:31,087 --> 00:04:49,733\n報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉\n\n13\n00:04:50,413 --> 00:05:07,399\n但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些\n\n14\n00:05:07,859 --> 00:05:23,387\nOK好那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵它頻繁發生吊車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會\n\n15\n00:05:24,207 --> 00:05:46,266\n反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善\n\n16\n00:05:47,578 --> 00:06:07,486\n當然啦針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題人為的問題那部長現在還要給您看一段影片我們先來看影片\n\n17\n00:06:08,772 --> 00:06:21,070\n來看一下我們到站列車317那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他到站之後他的317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車進來看\n\n18\n00:06:25,069 --> 00:06:39,710\n坐不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車還有車不見了那他不是到車站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了就這樣\n\n19\n00:06:41,001 --> 00:06:55,114\n好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員\n\n20\n00:06:56,888 --> 00:07:12,438\n這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失\n\n21\n00:07:19,923 --> 00:07:21,584\n我們有請台鐵提供資料現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡\n\n22\n00:07:37,574 --> 00:08:00,624\n所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是說不定的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全\n\n23\n00:08:01,568 --> 00:08:29,289\n所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤\n\n24\n00:08:30,029 --> 00:08:45,627\n是那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊沒有他應該是要了解他\n\n25\n00:08:46,604 --> 00:09:09,615\n我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題\n\n26\n00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:24,655\n因為他在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊\n\n27\n00:09:28,533 --> 00:09:47,340\n報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那他會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為他到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會\n\n28\n00:09:48,260 --> 00:10:07,590\n就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為他還在營運他已經到站了那但是我們的安全絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這一位副站長他其實應該說那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啊很大的問題啊\n\n29\n00:10:09,195 --> 00:10:24,528\n沒有這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嗎是人的誤解所以還有管理上面出了問題嗎這個我們來檢討好謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5969\t15199\t好 謝謝主席 主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好 我們吳代董事長委員好\n21004\t49866\t部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買\n51147\t64607\t那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該一提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教\n66831\t88824\t部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處部長我們先繼續看下去\n89304\t117537\t那根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果有56%的人認為知情時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛\n118177\t135053\t那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下\n138434\t159478\t主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條是 上一次本席質詢的時候您也在台下嘛那沒關係我們繼續我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見的\n160194\t189038\t沒錯 這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全程要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全程來做錄影呢\n190887\t215768\t這個我們可以來討論好不好我們先董事長今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被端端起於\n216408\t243139\t就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有戴隆市長那其實在其他部門密錄器的使用已經早就行之有年啦不只是我們看到可以看到消防機關還有財政部還有地方的社會局都有建制規範\n244580\t269870\t跟委員報告好 因為我們跟第一 剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事情況開啟嗎到目前至少 我認為應該是這個應該 我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是真的不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟人家溝通一下\n271087\t289733\t報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉\n290413\t307399\t但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些\n307859\t323387\tOK 好 那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵它頻繁發生吊車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會\n324207\t346266\t反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善\n347578\t367486\t當然啦 針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP 相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題 人為的問題那部長 現在還要給您看一段影片 我們先來看影片\n368772\t381070\t來看一下我們到站列車317那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他到站之後他的317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車進來看\n385069\t399710\t坐不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車還有車不見了那他不是到車站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了就這樣\n401001\t415114\t好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員\n416888\t432438\t這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失\n439923\t441584\t我們有請台鐵提供資料 現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡\n457574\t480624\t所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是說不定的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全\n481568\t509289\t所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤\n510029\t525627\t是 那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊沒有 他應該是要了解他\n526604\t549615\t我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題\n551636\t564655\t因為他在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊\n568533\t587340\t報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那他會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為他到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會\n588260\t607590\t就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為他還在營運他已經到站了那但是我們的安全絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這一位副站長他其實應該說那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啊很大的問題啊\n609195\t624528\t沒有 這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嗎是人的誤解所以還有管理上面出了問題嗎這個我們來檢討好 謝謝部長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好 我們吳代董事長委員好\n部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買\n那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該一提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教\n部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處部長我們先繼續看下去\n那根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果有56%的人認為知情時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛\n那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下\n主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條是 上一次本席質詢的時候您也在台下嘛那沒關係我們繼續我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見的\n沒錯 這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全程要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全程來做錄影呢\n這個我們可以來討論好不好我們先董事長今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被端端起於\n就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有戴隆市長那其實在其他部門密錄器的使用已經早就行之有年啦不只是我們看到可以看到消防機關還有財政部還有地方的社會局都有建制規範\n跟委員報告好 因為我們跟第一 剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事情況開啟嗎到目前至少 我認為應該是這個應該 我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是真的不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟人家溝通一下\n報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉\n但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些\nOK 好 那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵它頻繁發生吊車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會\n反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善\n當然啦 針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP 相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題 人為的問題那部長 現在還要給您看一段影片 我們先來看影片\n來看一下我們到站列車317那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他到站之後他的317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車進來看\n坐不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車還有車不見了那他不是到車站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了就這樣\n好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員\n這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失\n我們有請台鐵提供資料 現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡\n所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是說不定的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全\n所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤\n是 那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊沒有 他應該是要了解他\n我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題\n因為他在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊\n報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那他會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為他到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會\n就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為他還在營運他已經到站了那但是我們的安全絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這一位副站長他其實應該說那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啊很大的問題啊\n沒有 這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嗎是人的誤解所以還有管理上面出了問題嗎這個我們來檢討好 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.969 --> 00:15.199\n好謝謝主席主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好我們吳代董事長委員好\n\n00:21.004 --> 00:49.866\n部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買\n\n00:51.147 --> 01:04.607\n那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該一提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教\n\n01:06.831 --> 01:28.824\n部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處部長我們先繼續看下去\n\n01:29.304 --> 01:57.537\n那根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果有56%的人認為知情時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛\n\n01:58.177 --> 02:15.053\n那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下\n\n02:18.434 --> 02:39.478\n主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條是上一次本席質詢的時候您也在台下嘛那沒關係我們繼續我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見的\n\n02:40.194 --> 03:09.038\n沒錯這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全程要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全程來做錄影呢\n\n03:10.887 --> 03:35.768\n這個我們可以來討論好不好我們先董事長今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被端端起於\n\n03:36.408 --> 04:03.139\n就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有戴隆市長那其實在其他部門密錄器的使用已經早就行之有年啦不只是我們看到可以看到消防機關還有財政部還有地方的社會局都有建制規範\n\n04:04.580 --> 04:29.870\n跟委員報告好因為我們跟第一剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事情況開啟嗎到目前至少我認為應該是這個應該我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是真的不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟人家溝通一下\n\n04:31.087 --> 04:49.733\n報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉\n\n04:50.413 --> 05:07.399\n但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些\n\n05:07.859 --> 05:23.387\nOK好那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵它頻繁發生吊車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會\n\n05:24.207 --> 05:46.266\n反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善\n\n05:47.578 --> 06:07.486\n當然啦針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題人為的問題那部長現在還要給您看一段影片我們先來看影片\n\n06:08.772 --> 06:21.070\n來看一下我們到站列車317那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他到站之後他的317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車進來看\n\n06:25.069 --> 06:39.710\n坐不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車還有車不見了那他不是到車站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了就這樣\n\n06:41.001 --> 06:55.114\n好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員\n\n06:56.888 --> 07:12.438\n這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失\n\n07:19.923 --> 07:21.584\n我們有請台鐵提供資料現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡\n\n07:37.574 --> 08:00.624\n所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是說不定的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全\n\n08:01.568 --> 08:29.289\n所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤\n\n08:30.029 --> 08:45.627\n是那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊沒有他應該是要了解他\n\n08:46.604 --> 09:09.615\n我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題\n\n09:11.636 --> 09:24.655\n因為他在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊\n\n09:28.533 --> 09:47.340\n報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那他會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為他到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會\n\n09:48.260 --> 10:07.590\n就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為他還在營運他已經到站了那但是我們的安全絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這一位副站長他其實應該說那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啊很大的問題啊\n\n10:09.195 --> 10:24.528\n沒有這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嗎是人的誤解所以還有管理上面出了問題嗎這個我們來檢討好謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.969,"end":15.199,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好 我們吳代董事長委員好"},{"start":21.004,"end":49.866,"text":"部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買"},{"start":51.147,"end":64.607,"text":"那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該一提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教"},{"start":66.831,"end":88.824,"text":"部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處部長我們先繼續看下去"},{"start":89.304,"end":117.537,"text":"那根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果有56%的人認為知情時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛"},{"start":118.177,"end":135.053,"text":"那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下"},{"start":138.434,"end":159.478,"text":"主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條是 上一次本席質詢的時候您也在台下嘛那沒關係我們繼續我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見的"},{"start":160.194,"end":189.038,"text":"沒錯 這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全程要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全程來做錄影呢"},{"start":190.887,"end":215.768,"text":"這個我們可以來討論好不好我們先董事長今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被端端起於"},{"start":216.408,"end":243.139,"text":"就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有戴隆市長那其實在其他部門密錄器的使用已經早就行之有年啦不只是我們看到可以看到消防機關還有財政部還有地方的社會局都有建制規範"},{"start":244.58,"end":269.87,"text":"跟委員報告好 因為我們跟第一 剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事情況開啟嗎到目前至少 我認為應該是這個應該 我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是真的不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟人家溝通一下"},{"start":271.087,"end":289.733,"text":"報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉"},{"start":290.413,"end":307.399,"text":"但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些"},{"start":307.859,"end":323.387,"text":"OK 好 那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵它頻繁發生吊車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會"},{"start":324.207,"end":346.266,"text":"反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善"},{"start":347.578,"end":367.486,"text":"當然啦 針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP 相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題 人為的問題那部長 現在還要給您看一段影片 我們先來看影片"},{"start":368.772,"end":381.07,"text":"來看一下我們到站列車317那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他到站之後他的317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車進來看"},{"start":385.069,"end":399.71,"text":"坐不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車還有車不見了那他不是到車站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了就這樣"},{"start":401.001,"end":415.114,"text":"好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員"},{"start":416.888,"end":432.438,"text":"這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失"},{"start":439.923,"end":441.584,"text":"我們有請台鐵提供資料 現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡"},{"start":457.574,"end":480.624,"text":"所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是說不定的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全"},{"start":481.568,"end":509.289,"text":"所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤"},{"start":510.029,"end":525.627,"text":"是 那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊沒有 他應該是要了解他"},{"start":526.604,"end":549.615,"text":"我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題"},{"start":551.636,"end":564.655,"text":"因為他在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊"},{"start":568.533,"end":587.34,"text":"報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那他會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為他到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會"},{"start":588.26,"end":607.59,"text":"就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為他還在營運他已經到站了那但是我們的安全絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這一位副站長他其實應該說那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啊很大的問題啊"},{"start":609.195,"end":624.528,"text":"沒有 這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嗎是人的誤解所以還有管理上面出了問題嗎這個我們來檢討好 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1109,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（13時）謝謝主席。主席，請陳世凱部長及臺鐵的代理董事長。"],["主席：陳部長及伍代理董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。部長，本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及4月23日臺鐵的專案報告都曾多次要求臺鐵研議第一線執勤人員是否要配戴密錄器，以強化勤務的安全及事後釐清責任能有畫面做為依據。本席在今年3月24日收到臺鐵的回復，114年第一次車班工時協商會議決議，出席代表全數不同意購買，本案將持續進行溝通研議。因此，本席於本月的7日針對臺鐵的回文內容提出質詢，今天也針對該議題請教部長及代理董事長。首先要請教部長，你贊成臺鐵第一線執勤人員配戴密錄器嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：如果站在保障員工執勤安全的立場，我當然是贊成啦！"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳部長世凱：但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考，他們也考量到同仁的隱私，或者在執勤過程中不希望公司透過密錄器做類似懲處或考績……"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們就繼續看下去，根據臺鐵提供給本席的資料，可以看到應該調查的人數是1,139人，但實際調查人數是900人，而且調查結果有56%的人認為執勤時應該配戴密錄器、57%的人認為應該要統一公發，超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器。部長，根據臺鐵的調查資料，我們可以看到超過一半的員工都贊成配戴密錄器，而且有六成以上不反對，既然有那麼多員工明確表示支持，為什麼在協商會議上卻是全數代表都反對？究竟是哪個環節出了問題？或是與基層的聲音有落差？"],["陳部長世凱：當時工會是怎麼說的，我是不是請臺鐵來回答一下？"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：委員好。報告委員，主要問題是因為在我們的使用規則中有一條……"],["邱委員若華：上次本席質詢時你也在台下，沒關係！我們請部長繼續看關於使用規章的部分。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，你認為最有問題的是哪一點？"],["陳部長世凱：如果就剛剛的說法而言，他們應該是對全程錄影的部分有意見。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯！這個就是引發反對聲音的主因。上次馮總經理也說到，全程開啟的這一點讓所有代表都有意見，有人質疑隱私被侵犯了，譬如上廁所是不是錄影也要開著，所以全數不同意購買。部長，你認為這一點合理嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：如果考量到譬如上廁所的時候，當然就是屬於隱私的問題。"],["邱委員若華：對啊！這個非常不合理，為什麼會有那麼僵化及死板的規定？為什麼一定要全程錄影呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們可以針對這個來討論，好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：報告委員，大家其實討論了很多，譬如剛剛提到上廁所的部分，當然一定要關掉，公司不會要求上廁所都要打開，不會！但是針對執勤的期間，我們會希望他能全程開錄，為什麼呢？第一個，我們不希望未來發生什麼事時被斷章取義，就只截斷一部分，真的，我認為這個要求其實是保護同仁，要不然到時候只有一個畫面，至於前後如何根本就不知道。"],["邱委員若華：這個密錄器應該是保障安全的工具，而不是變成壓力的來源。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：當然不是。"],["邱委員若華：部長及代理董事長，其他部門使用密錄器早就行之有年，我們可以看到消防機關、財政部及地方社會局都有建置及規範。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：報告委員，剛剛講的大概都是第一線的同仁，與一般用路人接觸得比較頻繁，我們認為真的是應該要……"],["邱委員若華：在臺鐵無法視情況開啟嗎？一定要全程開啓？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我個人認為應該還要繼續。"],["邱委員若華：什麼時候會再召開下一次會議繼續討論呢？針對不要硬性規定全程都要錄影？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我們盡快再找時間溝通一下。"],["邱委員若華：OK，那……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果未來要再開會討論，我們會針對一些情境排除的部分列入，也就是更人性化，希望在執勤過程中要全程錄影，但是其中有一些情境，譬如剛剛我們提到上廁所、上洗手間就可以關掉，但是當你面對客人的時候、在第一線面對客人工作的時候，為了要保護自己，我們還是希望他能夠開啟。"],["邱委員若華：我們還是希望這個前提是在第一線執勤的時候才使用嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有錯！沒有錯！"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。"],["陳部長世凱：朝這個方向調整，相信大家的接受度會相對高一些。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，總經理及代理董事長可以先回座休息。","我們看到臺鐵頻繁發生調車的意外及幽靈列車的問題，因此，本席在這個月17日向運安會反映針對這個問題是否該介入調查。剛好也藉這個機會讓部長了解，最近臺鐵的事故頻傳，我們可以看到短短4個月內就發生7起不當的停車事件、5個月內也發生了7起調車意外。請問，這個雙7的問題看起來並不是偶發事件，臺鐵有沒有提出改善措施？有沒有針對這兩個問題進行檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，針對這些事情不斷在檢討。"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳部長世凱：我們也看出有大部分的案例是因為同仁未依照相關SOP的規定去做，當你沒有依照SOP就容易會出意外。"],["邱委員若華：所以是人為的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：人為的問題佔比較多數。"],["邱委員若華：部長，本席現在就讓你看一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：部長，你有看到嗎？明明列車就還在月台，但是在監視畫面中我們沒看到任何訊號，它並未顯示在監視畫面中。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個案例，我聽過臺鐵公司的說明。這位值班的副站長應該要理解實際狀況，但是他並不理解，還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息，我認為臺鐵公司應該要……"],["邱委員若華：所以是站長的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：到了終點站之後，車號本來就是會消失，這是行之有年、一直都是這樣的做法，值班副站長自己不理解這個狀況，還出來講這個影片……"],["邱委員若華：請教主委，是這樣的情況嗎？上次本席就詢問過主委，是否應該要進行調查？"],["林主任委員信得：對，委員講得沒有錯！我們已經請臺鐵提供資料，目前詳細資料尚未送達我們這邊。"],["邱委員若華：所以臺鐵的詳細資料還未送達運安會，那麼運安會是什麼時候開始啟動調查？"],["林主任委員信得：初步就是剛剛臺鐵所說明的，它有點類似像假訊號，事實上，它不是真正……但我們還是希望……它的資料是書面性的。"],["邱委員若華：臺鐵說是因為這樣的情況，所以運安會就不用調查了嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：不是。"],["邱委員若華：還是會調查嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：還是會調查。"],["邱委員若華：OK。"],["林主任委員信得：我們還沒考慮要不要立案，因為它的資料尚未完全齊全。"],["邱委員若華：剛剛才知道臺鐵的說明，所以這個也是人為的問題嗎？不是系統出現錯誤嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：不是，這是他的誤解。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個系統長年來都是這樣設定，但是錄影片的這位先生不了解這個狀況，如果是一般民眾不了解這個狀況，我們可以接受，但他是值班副站長……"],["邱委員若華：如果是這位先生不了解狀況，是否就是教育訓練出現了問題？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題，我認為臺鐵應該要懲處喔！"],["馮總經理輝昇：事實上，我們針對軌道閉塞有EP盤……"],["邱委員若華：是否會針對這位員工進行懲處？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們會再加強訓練。"],["邱委員若華：會再加強訓練？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們的系統整個運作的正常……"],["邱委員若華：在他不了解這個系統的情況下，你們就讓他上工了？"],["馮總經理輝昇：他應該是要了解，對於這個部分，我們也會詳細地對他進行輔導。"],["陳部長世凱：我認為處理除了訓練之外，這位同仁在臺鐵已經這麼多年的時間，不只不了解這個狀況，甚至還錄下影片，誤導社會對臺鐵這件事情產生誤解，因此，我認為臺鐵除了要好好輔導這位員工之外，有沒有懲處的問題也需要討論。"],["邱委員若華：現在就是臺鐵本身有很大的問題嘛！因為它在安全管理上本來就要系統化、常態化及標準化，為什麼今天會有這位員工不理解情況，甚至還把影片傳到網路上？他明明就在第一線，應該要了解情況啊！"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，我再說明清楚一點。這是我們的TID系統，也就是列車資訊顯示系統，它會與車站的顯示板連動，因此它到達終點站之後，這個列次就會消失掉，這是避免旅客看到那班車認為它還在營運，其實它已經到站了。但我們的安全、絕對的安全就是我們的CP盤，所以這位副站長其實應該要……"],["邱委員若華：總經理，你說了那麼多，其實就是臺鐵內部仍然存在著問題、很大的問題。"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們會再詳細了解，誠如剛剛部長所提，除了輔導……"],["邱委員若華：今天本席也讓部長了解，請再督促臺鐵。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這件事情在系統的部分並沒有問題，其實是人的誤解。"],["邱委員若華：所以又是人為的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是人的誤解。"],["邱委員若華：還有管理上出了問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來檢討。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}}