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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 68.336, \"end\": 68.516, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 68.516, \"end\": 68.656, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 68.656, \"end\": 68.796, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 68.796, \"end\": 68.916, \"score\": 0.585}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 68.916, \"end\": 69.056, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 69.056, \"end\": 69.276, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 69.276, \"end\": 69.516, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 69.516, \"end\": 69.736, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 69.736, \"end\": 69.896, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 69.896, \"end\": 71.357, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 71.357, \"end\": 71.877, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 71.877, \"end\": 72.357, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 72.357, \"end\": 72.918, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 72.918, \"end\": 73.118, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 73.118, \"end\": 73.298, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 73.298, \"end\": 73.438, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 73.438, \"end\": 73.878, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 73.878, \"end\": 74.058, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 74.058, \"end\": 74.218, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 74.218, \"end\": 74.738, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 74.738, \"end\": 75.018, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 75.018, \"end\": 75.118, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 75.118, \"end\": 75.178, \"score\": 0.511}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 75.178, \"end\": 75.198, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}]}, {\"start\": 76.579, \"end\": 79.005, \"text\": \"大概最快多久的時間可以達成\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 76.579, \"end\": 76.74, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 76.74, \"end\": 77.04, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 77.04, \"end\": 77.381, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 77.381, \"end\": 77.722, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 77.722, \"end\": 77.903, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 77.903, \"end\": 78.043, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 78.043, \"end\": 78.544, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 78.544, \"end\": 78.665, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 78.665, \"end\": 78.985, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 78.985, \"end\": 79.005, \"score\": 0.808}]}, {\"start\": 80.172, \"end\": 108.011, \"text\": \"如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", 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\"end\": 105.609, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 105.609, \"end\": 105.77, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 105.77, \"end\": 106.09, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 106.09, \"end\": 106.47, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 106.47, \"end\": 106.73, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 106.73, \"end\": 106.87, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 106.87, \"end\": 107.331, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 107.331, \"end\": 107.511, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 107.511, \"end\": 107.631, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 107.631, \"end\": 107.731, \"score\": 0.598}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 107.731, \"end\": 107.891, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 107.891, \"end\": 107.911, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 791.326, \"end\": 791.788, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 791.788, \"end\": 792.13, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 792.13, \"end\": 792.25, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 792.25, \"end\": 792.471, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 792.471, \"end\": 792.672, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 792.672, \"end\": 792.692, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,723 --> 00:00:11,368\n謝謝主席我想請一下郭志輝郭部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,301 --> 00:00:46,567\n委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候\n\n3\n00:00:47,347 --> 00:01:15,198\n那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到核電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到核電廠要研議\n\n4\n00:01:16,579 --> 00:01:19,005\n大概最快多久的時間可以達成\n\n5\n00:01:20,172 --> 00:01:48,011\n如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的\n\n6\n00:01:49,352 --> 00:02:06,157\n那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電\n\n7\n00:02:07,857 --> 00:02:28,663\n那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們來把他們的經驗\n\n8\n00:02:31,704 --> 00:03:00,556\n其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的右原料是那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed\n\n9\n00:03:01,356 --> 00:03:19,308\n都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17要下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多啦所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候\n\n10\n00:03:23,547 --> 00:03:48,128\n我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的\n\n11\n00:03:50,370 --> 00:04:09,284\n所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟\n\n12\n00:04:10,848 --> 00:04:38,807\n這也是最理想的狀況就是說那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管打如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能這可以重新發電\n\n13\n00:04:39,868 --> 00:05:05,537\n最快的速度是這樣子嘛對不對那我在想說我們當然還有還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個燃料棒的問題這是樂觀啦樂觀理解\n\n14\n00:05:06,437 --> 00:05:23,045\n所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展\n\n15\n00:05:24,345 --> 00:05:45,343\n發核電嘛對不對你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題因為我在想說這至少就是有台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個\n\n16\n00:05:52,122 --> 00:06:05,672\n是都有補啦理解興達的一號二號機都上來了上來的量比那個河山的下去的量要多很多那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個\n\n17\n00:06:10,585 --> 00:06:22,556\n電發電機又重新啟動啦那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它\n\n18\n00:06:28,764 --> 00:06:48,286\n報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法令規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動\n\n19\n00:06:49,551 --> 00:07:12,858\n理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面\n\n20\n00:07:13,418 --> 00:07:27,784\n他有特別提到說針對緊急備用電力設施的時候他是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上他有設定的時間那因為大齡\n\n21\n00:07:30,245 --> 00:07:53,813\n就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可以請部長回答一下嗎\n\n22\n00:07:55,153 --> 00:08:10,612\n那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修啦那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉啦那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好那我想說這個部分因為\n\n23\n00:08:11,653 --> 00:08:32,455\n這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況\n\n24\n00:08:34,737 --> 00:08:56,154\n我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Testrunning因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10%月間有7%\n\n25\n00:09:01,385 --> 00:09:24,264\n日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求\n\n26\n00:09:24,924 --> 00:09:53,501\n我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任\n\n27\n00:09:54,481 --> 00:10:17,459\n那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般它規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個\n\n28\n00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:42,585\n屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以\n\n29\n00:10:43,625 --> 00:10:44,946\n每千瓦一千元\n\n30\n00:11:10,141 --> 00:11:23,289\n每千瓦一千元每千瓦一千元嘛齁這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部由能源署代收現在由環境部OK那個有報告\n\n31\n00:11:24,034 --> 00:11:39,801\n能源署代收嘛環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部\n\n32\n00:11:41,101 --> 00:11:55,409\nOK理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本\n\n33\n00:11:56,314 --> 00:12:24,124\n那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以就表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題\n\n34\n00:12:24,904 --> 00:12:37,999\n所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持\n\n35\n00:12:39,304 --> 00:13:08,010\n基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約的內容就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好\n\n36\n00:13:10,984 --> 00:13:12,692\n我們可以做參考OK好謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9723\t11368\t謝謝主席 我想請一下郭志輝郭部長\n19301\t46567\t委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是 那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候\n47347\t75198\t那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到核電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到核電廠要研議\n76579\t79005\t大概最快多久的時間可以達成\n80172\t108011\t如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的\n109352\t126157\t那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電\n127857\t148663\t那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們來把他們的經驗\n151704\t180556\t其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的右原料是那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed\n181356\t199308\t都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17要下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多啦所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候\n203547\t228128\t我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的\n230370\t249284\t所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟\n250848\t278807\t這也是最理想的狀況就是說那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管打如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能這可以重新發電\n279868\t305537\t最快的速度是這樣子嘛 對不對那我在想說我們當然還有 還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是 理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解 理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個燃料棒的問題這是樂觀啦 樂觀 理解\n306437\t323045\t所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展\n324345\t345343\t發核電嘛 對不對 你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題 因為我在想說這至少就是有 台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間 其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電 所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題 因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個\n352122\t365672\t是都有補啦 理解興達的一號二號機都上來了上來的量比那個河山的下去的量要多很多那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個\n370585\t382556\t電 發電機又重新啟動啦那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它\n388764\t408286\t報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法令規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動\n409551\t432858\t理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面\n433418\t447784\t他有特別提到說針對緊急備用電力設施的時候他是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上他有設定的時間那因為大齡\n450245\t473813\t就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可以請部長回答一下嗎\n475153\t490612\t那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修啦那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉啦那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好那我想說這個部分因為\n491653\t512455\t這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇 是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況\n514737\t536154\t我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Test running因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦 就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10% 月間有7%\n541385\t564264\t日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求\n564924\t593501\t我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任\n594481\t617459\t那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般它規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個\n619020\t642585\t屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以\n643625\t644946\t每千瓦一千元\n670141\t683289\t每千瓦一千元每千瓦一千元嘛齁這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部由能源署代收現在由環境部OK那個有報告\n684034\t699801\t能源署代收嘛 環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部\n701101\t715409\tOK 理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本\n716314\t744124\t那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以就表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題\n744904\t757999\t所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持\n759304\t788010\t基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約的內容就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好\n790984\t792692\t我們可以做參考OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我想請一下郭志輝郭部長\n委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是 那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候\n那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到核電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到核電廠要研議\n大概最快多久的時間可以達成\n如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的\n那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電\n那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們來把他們的經驗\n其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的右原料是那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed\n都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17要下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多啦所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候\n我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的\n所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟\n這也是最理想的狀況就是說那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管打如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能這可以重新發電\n最快的速度是這樣子嘛 對不對那我在想說我們當然還有 還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是 理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解 理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個燃料棒的問題這是樂觀啦 樂觀 理解\n所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展\n發核電嘛 對不對 你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題 因為我在想說這至少就是有 台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間 其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電 所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題 因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個\n是都有補啦 理解興達的一號二號機都上來了上來的量比那個河山的下去的量要多很多那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個\n電 發電機又重新啟動啦那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它\n報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法令規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動\n理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面\n他有特別提到說針對緊急備用電力設施的時候他是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上他有設定的時間那因為大齡\n就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可以請部長回答一下嗎\n那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修啦那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉啦那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好那我想說這個部分因為\n這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇 是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況\n我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Test running因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦 就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10% 月間有7%\n日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求\n我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任\n那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般它規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個\n屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以\n每千瓦一千元\n每千瓦一千元每千瓦一千元嘛齁這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部由能源署代收現在由環境部OK那個有報告\n能源署代收嘛 環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部\nOK 理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本\n那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以就表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題\n所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持\n基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約的內容就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好\n我們可以做參考OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.723 --> 00:11.368\n謝謝主席我想請一下郭志輝郭部長\n\n00:19.301 --> 00:46.567\n委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候\n\n00:47.347 --> 01:15.198\n那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到核電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到核電廠要研議\n\n01:16.579 --> 01:19.005\n大概最快多久的時間可以達成\n\n01:20.172 --> 01:48.011\n如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的\n\n01:49.352 --> 02:06.157\n那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電\n\n02:07.857 --> 02:28.663\n那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們來把他們的經驗\n\n02:31.704 --> 03:00.556\n其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的右原料是那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed\n\n03:01.356 --> 03:19.308\n都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17要下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多啦所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候\n\n03:23.547 --> 03:48.128\n我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的\n\n03:50.370 --> 04:09.284\n所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟\n\n04:10.848 --> 04:38.807\n這也是最理想的狀況就是說那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管打如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能這可以重新發電\n\n04:39.868 --> 05:05.537\n最快的速度是這樣子嘛對不對那我在想說我們當然還有還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個燃料棒的問題這是樂觀啦樂觀理解\n\n05:06.437 --> 05:23.045\n所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展\n\n05:24.345 --> 05:45.343\n發核電嘛對不對你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題因為我在想說這至少就是有台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個\n\n05:52.122 --> 06:05.672\n是都有補啦理解興達的一號二號機都上來了上來的量比那個河山的下去的量要多很多那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個\n\n06:10.585 --> 06:22.556\n電發電機又重新啟動啦那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它\n\n06:28.764 --> 06:48.286\n報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法令規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動\n\n06:49.551 --> 07:12.858\n理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面\n\n07:13.418 --> 07:27.784\n他有特別提到說針對緊急備用電力設施的時候他是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上他有設定的時間那因為大齡\n\n07:30.245 --> 07:53.813\n就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可以請部長回答一下嗎\n\n07:55.153 --> 08:10.612\n那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修啦那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉啦那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好那我想說這個部分因為\n\n08:11.653 --> 08:32.455\n這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況\n\n08:34.737 --> 08:56.154\n我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Testrunning因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10%月間有7%\n\n09:01.385 --> 09:24.264\n日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求\n\n09:24.924 --> 09:53.501\n我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任\n\n09:54.481 --> 10:17.459\n那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般它規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個\n\n10:19.020 --> 10:42.585\n屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以\n\n10:43.625 --> 10:44.946\n每千瓦一千元\n\n11:10.141 --> 11:23.289\n每千瓦一千元每千瓦一千元嘛齁這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部由能源署代收現在由環境部OK那個有報告\n\n11:24.034 --> 11:39.801\n能源署代收嘛環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部\n\n11:41.101 --> 11:55.409\nOK理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本\n\n11:56.314 --> 12:24.124\n那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以就表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題\n\n12:24.904 --> 12:37.999\n所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持\n\n12:39.304 --> 13:08.010\n基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約的內容就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好\n\n13:10.984 --> 13:12.692\n我們可以做參考OK好謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.723,"end":11.368,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下郭志輝郭部長"},{"start":19.301,"end":46.567,"text":"委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是 那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候"},{"start":47.347,"end":75.198,"text":"那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到核電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到核電廠要研議"},{"start":76.579,"end":79.005,"text":"大概最快多久的時間可以達成"},{"start":80.172,"end":108.011,"text":"如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的"},{"start":109.352,"end":126.157,"text":"那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電"},{"start":127.857,"end":148.663,"text":"那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們來把他們的經驗"},{"start":151.704,"end":180.556,"text":"其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的右原料是那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed"},{"start":181.356,"end":199.308,"text":"都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17要下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多啦所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候"},{"start":203.547,"end":228.128,"text":"我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的"},{"start":230.37,"end":249.284,"text":"所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟"},{"start":250.848,"end":278.807,"text":"這也是最理想的狀況就是說那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管打如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能這可以重新發電"},{"start":279.868,"end":305.537,"text":"最快的速度是這樣子嘛 對不對那我在想說我們當然還有 還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是 理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解 理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個燃料棒的問題這是樂觀啦 樂觀 理解"},{"start":306.437,"end":323.045,"text":"所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展"},{"start":324.345,"end":345.343,"text":"發核電嘛 對不對 你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題 因為我在想說這至少就是有 台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間 其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電 所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題 因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個"},{"start":352.122,"end":365.672,"text":"是都有補啦 理解興達的一號二號機都上來了上來的量比那個河山的下去的量要多很多那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個"},{"start":370.585,"end":382.556,"text":"電 發電機又重新啟動啦那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它"},{"start":388.764,"end":408.286,"text":"報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法令規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動"},{"start":409.551,"end":432.858,"text":"理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面"},{"start":433.418,"end":447.784,"text":"他有特別提到說針對緊急備用電力設施的時候他是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上他有設定的時間那因為大齡"},{"start":450.245,"end":473.813,"text":"就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可以請部長回答一下嗎"},{"start":475.153,"end":490.612,"text":"那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修啦那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉啦那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好那我想說這個部分因為"},{"start":491.653,"end":512.455,"text":"這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇 是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況"},{"start":514.737,"end":536.154,"text":"我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Test running因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦 就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10% 月間有7%"},{"start":541.385,"end":564.264,"text":"日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求"},{"start":564.924,"end":593.501,"text":"我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任"},{"start":594.481,"end":617.459,"text":"那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般它規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個"},{"start":619.02,"end":642.585,"text":"屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以"},{"start":643.625,"end":644.946,"text":"每千瓦一千元"},{"start":670.141,"end":683.289,"text":"每千瓦一千元每千瓦一千元嘛齁這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部由能源署代收現在由環境部OK那個有報告"},{"start":684.034,"end":699.801,"text":"能源署代收嘛 環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部"},{"start":701.101,"end":715.409,"text":"OK 理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本"},{"start":716.314,"end":744.124,"text":"那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以就表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題"},{"start":744.904,"end":757.999,"text":"所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持"},{"start":759.304,"end":788.01,"text":"基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約的內容就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好"},{"start":790.984,"end":792.692,"text":"我們可以做參考OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時41分）謝謝主席，我想請郭智輝部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。因為剛剛有好多委員都提到5月17日之後，臺灣就變成一個非核家園的環境，因為核管法確實立法院也在修，我絕對認為也尊重你剛剛提到的一個點，就是公務人員一定是依法行政、依法在辦事，這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果核管法於立法院通過之後，到核三延役的過程當中，最快大概多久可以完成？因為我記得在幾個月前的時候，曾經有官員提到核管法過了之後，到核電廠要延役還要好幾年的時間，我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的估算？核管法通過了之後，到核電廠延役大概最快多久的時間可以達成？"],["郭部長智輝：如果按照我們以前的資料顯示，核管法通過了，我們要確認這個機組可以再run多久，這個是一個非常重要的命題，因為以前的設計是40年，現在要延到60年，每一個設備都有其運作的狀況，所以雖然其他的國家延到60年，也有延到80年，因為每一台機組運轉的情況不會一樣，所以我們還要經過檢查，這個設備要先檢查，然後來判斷、確定它確實可以延到20年，這一段期間它當然不能夠正常來發電。根據以前的經驗來看，光是確認都要一年多，現在國外的資料顯示也許可以快一點，我想這一點就像大家所知道的，有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們，把他們的經驗跟我們分享。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我可以理解成核管法如果通過之後，經濟部有能力在一年左右的時間或者以內，就能夠讓核電廠延役，我可以這麼理解你的語言？"],["郭部長智輝：這個還有另外一個問題，我要跟委員報告，因為過去的法令，5月17日一定要下載，在這個情況下，因為我們的鈾原料，就是核電的原料棒，基本上都是tailor-made、訂做的，我們過去的量，就是5月17日下載，我們的量大概就到5月底，不會再多。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理瞭，所以我們要買新的燃料棒回來，大概還需要多少時間？"],["郭部長智輝：下載確認以後要一年多的檢驗，各種確認沒有問題以後，也許在那個時候，我們這邊可以做一件事情就是只要一通過，事實上我們就可以去訂燃料棒，檢查之後認為可以了，我們儘量趕快去訂燃料棒。但是跟委員報告，現在的燃料棒並非一次訂一個規格，而且每一支都不一樣……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：所以要16到18個月。"],["鄭委員正鈐：要16到18個月？所以綜合這兩個部分，若雙軌進行，同時檢查核電廠，同時訂燃料棒，最快也要16到18個月時間才能重啟電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：這是最理想的狀況，也就是設備檢查沒有問題，我們又可以買到燃料棒……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，謝謝部長，沒有問題。但這樣一來就很清楚了，也就是說，核管法通過之後，經濟部以最快的速度雙管齊下，同時檢查核電廠的狀態，同時訂新的燃料棒，綜合起來最快需要16到18個月才有可能重啟發電，最快的速度是這樣子，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：其實我們還缺一個，即核能發電有所謂的國際同儕審查……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解。"],["郭部長智輝：不是我們自己說OK就OK了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解。"],["郭部長智輝：其他……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這也是行政的程序，所以聽起來最客觀的點……"],["郭部長智輝：最樂觀的數字可能是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：16到18個月，還有要重新訂燃料棒的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這是比較樂觀的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。所以包括經濟部及國內的行政程序，還有國際檢驗這部分，綜合這三個因素，在核管法通過之後，最快16到18個月能夠重新重啟核電，對不對？你剛剛提到的三個因素是這樣子，我想這沒問題，至少臺灣會有16到18個月左右的時間是非核家園的狀態，也就是沒有核電。因此，所有委員其實都很擔心這段時間的供電會不會有問題？不會有問題嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不會有問題，因為大潭七號機，還有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：都有補上來？理解。"],["郭部長智輝：興達一號、二號機都上來，且上來的量比核三所下去的量要多很多。"],["鄭委員正鈐：4月22號大林五號機重新啟動，經濟部說是調度，但大林五號機其實是已經除役的天然氣發電機組，請問為什麼會在這個時間點緊急啟動？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，剛才有跟大家報告，政府所作所為都在法令規定之內……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：雖然那是備用的發電機組，但啟動亦在法律允許之內去啟動。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，你講的這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題。也就是在法令的允許下，它現在屬於緊急備用電力設施，畢竟已經除役了，所以算是緊急備用的電力設施。按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準第二條第一項第十一款特別提到「緊急備用電力設施：……專用於供電系統跳電、限電期間或其他為維持供電系統正常運轉之機組」，所以有設定時間。在大林電廠五號機除役之後，去年曾經緊急動用過一次，今年又緊急動用一次，所以我們擔心電力的調度是不是很吃緊，才會把已經除役的大林五號機組又重新啟用？可不可以請部長回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那是假設重啟的狀況，所以我們一定要維修機器，也要試運轉，以免真的要用的時候轉不起來，因此需要試運轉。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在台電公告的資料當中，並沒有特別講到試運轉，若確實是這樣子，那麼我們希望之後在公告所有細節時能更精準一點，不要造成民眾誤會。畢竟去年大林五號機也緊急動用過一次，今年又緊急動用，所以不免以為是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的情況？"],["郭部長智輝：會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況，不過那一次不是吃緊，那是在test running。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為去年722發生一次，今年422又發生一次。"],["郭部長智輝：對，就是吃緊，當然也是為了因應吃緊，所以有一些模擬狀況。現在日間有10%，夜間有7%的餘量，各位到台電網站都可以看到現在的發電餘量有多少。"],["鄭委員正鈐：其實所有的委員、經濟部以及所有國人，都擔心臺灣供電夠不夠的問題，而我們希望臺灣的供電是夠的！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在……"],["鄭委員正鈐：能符合產業上的需求。"],["郭部長智輝：現在電是夠的，比較可惜是缺綠電，所以綠電還要再趕，還要再加強。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。今天主席特別安排再生能源發展條例修正案的詢答，我最後就問，這次再生能源發展條例的修正有幾個點，第一，確定讓所有權人或管理人負起責任，一旦沒做或時間到的時候沒有拆除可能會有罰款問題。我想請教，一般大型的光電廠大概沒問題，基本上都符合，所以我擔心的是屋頂型，這次也規範在裡頭。屋頂型的規模比較小，之前很多屋頂型業者在設置屋頂型太陽能面板時都說，其一，這可以省電，這是最基本的原則；其二，可以隔熱、防漏水，一旦使用時間到了，應該要被強制拆除，但屋主──可能就是一般的老百姓，他並不想強制拆除，想繼續留著，可不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以，是不是？OK，如果不想拆除要繼續留著，是可以的？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以？OK。另外我想再請問有關光電板的處理問題，這其實跟環境部有很大關係，目前針對模組的回收怎麼收費？"],["郭部長智輝：每瓩1,000元。"],["鄭委員正鈐：每瓩1,000元？現在是由能源署收，還是環境部收？"],["李代理署長君禮：法令規定是環境部，由能源署代收。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在是環境部，但由能源署代收，且環境部要求成立回收基金，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：在環境部的基金還沒有法源可建立之前，先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金，未來環境部有法源可以收的時候，我們再把錢還給環境部。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，理解。我要問一個狀態，模組的回收款項、回收費用中，含不含一般民眾？因為要拆除屋頂上的模組，其實有很高的成本，所以拆除的費用算不算在回收的模組費用裡？"],["李代理署長君禮：拆除是業者的責任，由業者負責拆除，拆除後才由環境部的基金來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這代表拆除時，如果是屋頂型的，對民眾來說就要自己拆除，對不對？畢竟費用很大。我在想，一般光電設置時間為二十年到三十年，所以二十年前設置的人跟三十年之後要去拆除的人，可能是不一樣的人！因此，針對拆除成本，有沒有可能在回收模組當中給予一定的支持？"],["李代理署長君禮：基本上可以繼續使用，未來如果壞了也可以維修，但最後壞掉要拆除時，就要由裝置的人負責，這就看有沒有和當時裝置的太陽能光電廠簽合約。"],["鄭委員正鈐：畢竟是二、三十年前的事，裝置的人可能跟現在法令規定的負責人不一樣了，所以這邊就會有問題。爰此，希望在立法時能更細緻地把這部分考慮進來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以做為參考。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請鄭天財委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}}