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489.759, \"score\": 0.493}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 489.759, \"end\": 489.779, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 489.779, \"end\": 490.099, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 490.099, \"end\": 490.119, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 505.048, \"end\": 512.091, \"text\": \"國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 505.048, \"end\": 505.829, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"獨\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"企\", \"start\": 505.829, \"end\": 506.429, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 506.429, \"end\": 506.749, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 506.749, \"end\": 507.069, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 507.069, \"end\": 507.089, \"score\": 0.217}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 507.089, \"end\": 507.229, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,230 --> 00:00:02,080\n謝謝主席我們先請法務部黃次長好請黃次長\n\n2\n00:00:10,213 --> 00:00:30,604\n市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎\n\n3\n00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:53,727\n我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才這個不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力\n\n4\n00:00:54,207 --> 00:00:58,669\n我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來你剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢\n\n5\n00:01:22,419 --> 00:01:50,116\n如果我们来看这三年统计的状态我们这三年在刚刚那么多的法条规定里面如果我们用到国安法从涉案来讲其实也就是这么几件那甚至到判刑来讲坦白讲这三年里面一共只有合计就这么个位数的件数有到判刑的状态而且呢六个月以上刑度的其实也只有一件\n\n6\n00:01:50,956 --> 00:02:07,917\n所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但\n\n7\n00:02:08,377 --> 00:02:12,419\n其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:36,289 --> 00:02:59,575\n是在賴總統做出指示之後誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂\n\n9\n00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:11,900\n所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那\n\n10\n00:03:32,831 --> 00:03:43,337\n我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速我們盡快來辦好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好請陸委會\n\n11\n00:03:48,246 --> 00:03:54,431\n是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是\n\n12\n00:04:03,439 --> 00:04:13,566\n一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例\n\n13\n00:04:31,559 --> 00:04:34,680\n然後就有相關當事人出來說哇你這個是文字獄啊等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎\n\n14\n00:04:56,604 --> 00:05:22,035\n好這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方\n\n15\n00:05:23,856 --> 00:05:43,517\n和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對並不是這樣\n\n16\n00:05:44,858 --> 00:06:12,416\n但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理\n\n17\n00:06:12,856 --> 00:06:29,100\n那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我\n\n18\n00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:48,385\n帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子\n\n19\n00:06:49,545 --> 00:07:06,305\n那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大\n\n20\n00:07:07,947 --> 00:07:37,057\n所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人\n\n21\n00:07:37,537 --> 00:07:44,862\n好很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者\n\n22\n00:08:06,317 --> 00:08:10,119\n至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省\n\n23\n00:08:25,048 --> 00:08:32,091\n國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況\n\n24\n00:08:52,921 --> 00:09:07,996\n所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及\n\n25\n00:09:08,356 --> 00:09:24,353\n台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦\n\n26\n00:09:28,057 --> 00:09:36,905\n謝謝委員這個部分我們會注意因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人而是針對舉辦這種活動和大陸和中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好謝謝蘇主委未來請加油謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n230\t2080\t謝謝主席 我們先請法務部黃次長好 請黃次長\n10213\t30604\t市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎\n33960\t53727\t我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才這個不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力\n54207\t58669\t我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來你剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢\n82419\t110116\t如果我们来看这三年统计的状态我们这三年在刚刚那么多的法条规定里面如果我们用到国安法从涉案来讲其实也就是这么几件那甚至到判刑来讲坦白讲这三年里面一共只有合计就这么个位数的件数有到判刑的状态而且呢六个月以上刑度的其实也只有一件\n110956\t127917\t所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但\n128377\t132419\t其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼\n156289\t179575\t是 在賴總統做出指示之後 誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂\n183556\t191900\t所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那\n212831\t223337\t我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速我們盡快來辦好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好 請陸委會\n228246\t234431\t是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是\n243439\t253566\t一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例\n271559\t274680\t然後就有相關當事人出來說哇你這個是文字獄啊等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎\n296604\t322035\t好這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方\n323856\t343517\t和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對 並不是這樣\n344858\t372416\t但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種 譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義 用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理\n372856\t389100\t那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我\n390260\t408385\t帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子\n409545\t426305\t那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛 不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大\n427947\t457057\t所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人\n457537\t464862\t好 很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者\n486317\t490119\t至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省\n505048\t512091\t國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況\n532921\t547996\t所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及\n548356\t564353\t台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦\n568057\t576905\t謝謝委員 這個部分我們會注意 因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人 而是針對舉辦這種活動和大陸和中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好 謝謝蘇主委 未來請加油 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們先請法務部黃次長好 請黃次長\n市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎\n我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才這個不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力\n我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來你剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢\n如果我们来看这三年统计的状态我们这三年在刚刚那么多的法条规定里面如果我们用到国安法从涉案来讲其实也就是这么几件那甚至到判刑来讲坦白讲这三年里面一共只有合计就这么个位数的件数有到判刑的状态而且呢六个月以上刑度的其实也只有一件\n所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但\n其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼\n是 在賴總統做出指示之後 誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂\n所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那\n我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速我們盡快來辦好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好 請陸委會\n是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是\n一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例\n然後就有相關當事人出來說哇你這個是文字獄啊等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎\n好這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方\n和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對 並不是這樣\n但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種 譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義 用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理\n那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我\n帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子\n那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛 不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大\n所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人\n好 很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者\n至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省\n國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況\n所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及\n台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦\n謝謝委員 這個部分我們會注意 因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人 而是針對舉辦這種活動和大陸和中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好 謝謝蘇主委 未來請加油 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.230 --> 00:02.080\n謝謝主席我們先請法務部黃次長好請黃次長\n\n00:10.213 --> 00:30.604\n市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎\n\n00:33.960 --> 00:53.727\n我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才這個不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力\n\n00:54.207 --> 00:58.669\n我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來你剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢\n\n01:22.419 --> 01:50.116\n如果我们来看这三年统计的状态我们这三年在刚刚那么多的法条规定里面如果我们用到国安法从涉案来讲其实也就是这么几件那甚至到判刑来讲坦白讲这三年里面一共只有合计就这么个位数的件数有到判刑的状态而且呢六个月以上刑度的其实也只有一件\n\n01:50.956 --> 02:07.917\n所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但\n\n02:08.377 --> 02:12.419\n其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼\n\n02:36.289 --> 02:59.575\n是在賴總統做出指示之後誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂\n\n03:03.556 --> 03:11.900\n所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那\n\n03:32.831 --> 03:43.337\n我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速我們盡快來辦好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好請陸委會\n\n03:48.246 --> 03:54.431\n是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是\n\n04:03.439 --> 04:13.566\n一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例\n\n04:31.559 --> 04:34.680\n然後就有相關當事人出來說哇你這個是文字獄啊等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎\n\n04:56.604 --> 05:22.035\n好這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方\n\n05:23.856 --> 05:43.517\n和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對並不是這樣\n\n05:44.858 --> 06:12.416\n但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理\n\n06:12.856 --> 06:29.100\n那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我\n\n06:30.260 --> 06:48.385\n帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子\n\n06:49.545 --> 07:06.305\n那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大\n\n07:07.947 --> 07:37.057\n所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人\n\n07:37.537 --> 07:44.862\n好很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者\n\n08:06.317 --> 08:10.119\n至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省\n\n08:25.048 --> 08:32.091\n國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況\n\n08:52.921 --> 09:07.996\n所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及\n\n09:08.356 --> 09:24.353\n台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦\n\n09:28.057 --> 09:36.905\n謝謝委員這個部分我們會注意因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人而是針對舉辦這種活動和大陸和中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好謝謝蘇主委未來請加油謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.23,"end":2.08,"text":"謝謝主席 我們先請法務部黃次長好 請黃次長"},{"start":10.213,"end":30.604,"text":"市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎"},{"start":33.96,"end":53.727,"text":"我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才這個不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力"},{"start":54.207,"end":58.669,"text":"我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來你剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢"},{"start":82.419,"end":110.116,"text":"如果我们来看这三年统计的状态我们这三年在刚刚那么多的法条规定里面如果我们用到国安法从涉案来讲其实也就是这么几件那甚至到判刑来讲坦白讲这三年里面一共只有合计就这么个位数的件数有到判刑的状态而且呢六个月以上刑度的其实也只有一件"},{"start":110.956,"end":127.917,"text":"所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但"},{"start":128.377,"end":132.419,"text":"其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":156.289,"end":179.575,"text":"是 在賴總統做出指示之後 誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂"},{"start":183.556,"end":191.9,"text":"所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那"},{"start":212.831,"end":223.337,"text":"我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速我們盡快來辦好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好 請陸委會"},{"start":228.246,"end":234.431,"text":"是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是"},{"start":243.439,"end":253.566,"text":"一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":271.559,"end":274.68,"text":"然後就有相關當事人出來說哇你這個是文字獄啊等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎"},{"start":296.604,"end":322.035,"text":"好這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方"},{"start":323.856,"end":343.517,"text":"和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對 並不是這樣"},{"start":344.858,"end":372.416,"text":"但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種 譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義 用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理"},{"start":372.856,"end":389.1,"text":"那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我"},{"start":390.26,"end":408.385,"text":"帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子"},{"start":409.545,"end":426.305,"text":"那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛 不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大"},{"start":427.947,"end":457.057,"text":"所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人"},{"start":457.537,"end":464.862,"text":"好 很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者"},{"start":486.317,"end":490.119,"text":"至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省"},{"start":505.048,"end":512.091,"text":"國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況"},{"start":532.921,"end":547.996,"text":"所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及"},{"start":548.356,"end":564.353,"text":"台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦"},{"start":568.057,"end":576.905,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我們會注意 因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人 而是針對舉辦這種活動和大陸和中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好 謝謝蘇主委 未來請加油 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時29分）謝謝主席，先請法務部黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。次長，剛剛聽您報告得這麼完整，也對今天所有委員的國安法版本提出了法務部的意見，我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的，所以第一個想請教你一個整體的概念，我們今天來修正國安法，即便所有委員的版本都通過了，就能夠解決國安問題嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。"],["黃次長世杰：剛才不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告，都有提到很多相關的法令，其實都要搭配來修正，還有相關的行政管制措施、一些配套，甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：確實如同次長說的，國安危機的犯罪樣態真的很多，您剛剛說到法規，你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都涉及相關的國安問題，都可能產生國安危機的狀況，所以我們如果今天只就國安法來修正，不管是名詞定義或管轄範圍等等，我覺得可能都還不夠。如果我們來看這三年統計的狀態，這三年在剛剛那麼多的法條規定裡面，如果我們用到國安法，從涉案來講，其實也就是這麼幾件，從判刑來講，坦白講這三年裡面合計也就是個位數的件數有到判刑的狀態，而且六個月以上刑度的其實也只有一件，所以如果國人都同意國安危機是現在整個臺灣應該要面對的狀況，那我們就必須慎重的來思考國安危機、國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少。我同意國安法應該要修正，但其實應該不只是國安法，這應該完全同意吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我反而認為，如果今天這樣來講，國安法的主管機關應該算行政院，可是至少法務部應該可以跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見，國安的狀態應該是整包來修正，對這一點你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫？院的態度到底是什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：是，在賴總統做出指示之後，誠如剛才陸委會梁副主委所說，行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令，所以剛剛我也提到，有關於退撫給與的剝奪或減少，事實上，因為事涉多機關，我們已經啟動檢視的機制，也會跟各機關配合來修訂。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以真的是非常多啦，不只是一部。今天我們雖然已經要來審查國安法的修正，可是我覺得今天是一個啟動，我認為第一還是應該要有院版，而且這個院版甚至不是只有國安法一個法律，我認為其實應該要有非常多的相關法律同時提出，它是一整套臺灣面對國安危機的狀態，我覺得這樣會比較完善，以上是我的意見，次長同意嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：是，同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為要加速，那我不知道期程是什麼，不過沒關係，我就希望加速。"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們儘快來辦理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是次長的部分，次長請回座。接下來我想要請陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：請陸委會。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委，你應該也同意剛剛我跟法務部黃次長的對話，就是國安危機樣態這麼多，其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決，這個沒有問題吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，沒有問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委，其實我想跟你討論的反而是現在一般人每天會遇到的狀況，其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的，我認為以新聞事件來講，最常發生的可能是兩岸人民關係條例，以這個禮拜大家都在談的案例來講，陸委會也表達過態度，兩岸共讀一本好書徵文大賽，陸委會就這個案件說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例，然後就有相關當事人出來說你這是文字獄等等。我現在給副主委時間來解釋一下，請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯？什麼樣的樣態涉犯？我認為這應該講得更清楚，大家才知道到底我在什麼位置，你在講我嗎？我是哪一個行為？副主委，你可以說明清楚一點嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，這個活動其實去年就辦了第一屆，今年是第二屆，它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例第三十三條之一，也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：一般來講，我們會先去界定對方的合作對象到底是不是黨政軍機構。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：然後再看這樣的合作、舉辦活動的目的和它實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼，我們並不會對所有的合作行為都反對，並不是這樣！但在這個活動裡面很清楚，是對方的黨政軍機構，雖然中共的黨政軍機構非常多，會隱藏成各種名義，譬如公司、出版社、團體，不過我們會查到確實就是中共的黨政軍機構發起了這樣的活動，而臺灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理。以這個活動來講，以舉辦讀書為名，讓所有人只要有報名就可以列入、帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營。以去年來說，到了大陸之後就開始做一些參訪過程，然後中共的統戰官員就出席，告訴大家今天這個活動就是為了共同推動祖國和平統一等等。去年它就已經辦過一次這樣的活動，今年又再舉辦。","最近大家比較誤會的就是區桂芝老師，我們並不是針對區桂芝老師，而是因為他……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是針對這個區老師嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是。因為他最近的爭議比較大，也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物，所以他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了活動的訊息以後，就會有人跟政府機關檢舉。"],["蘇委員巧慧：檢舉的是這個活動本身？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：檢舉的是這個活動，所以我們所查的是這個活動。對我們來說，這種檢舉是一個消息來源、線索，但我們並不是去查區桂芝老師本人。"],["蘇委員巧慧：很好。因為時間的關係，我再做個簡單的整理。其實我們在認定這些活動的時候，以這個案例來講，就等於有三個層次，第一個是這個活動的主辦單位，第二個是消息的轉傳人，第三個是參與者。而陸委會在發布的新聞稿上面寫到，本案件恐涉兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一，指的是這個主辦單位，而不是轉傳訊息的人，更不是參與者，至少在本件是如此，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個活動為什麼會被認定為有違反、涉第三十三條之一的原因？因為主辦單位除了臺灣的民間單位之外，其實最重要的第一個是海峽出版發行集團，它就是屬於福建省國有獨資企業，由福建省委宣傳部來領導，就是這麼簡單嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一，很明確的是涉犯兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一，所以我覺得坊間不應該誤解好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係、跟中國扯上關係，政府就會怎麼樣，其實完全不是這樣的狀況！用這個例子，我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候，可以更明確區分清楚，讓人民知道我是在什麼位置，有什麼樣的行為會涉及臺灣，危害了自己國家的國家安全，這樣才不會有觸法的行為，未來也比較容易建立讓大家更能夠遵循的架構。我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點，免得反而變成消息誤傳、文字獄，我覺得這樣不太好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝委員，這個部分我們會注意。因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控，陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是個人，而是針對舉辦這種活動和中共黨政軍機構合作的團體或是組織。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：未來請加油！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}