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171.71, \"text\": \"那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 146.428, \"end\": 146.448, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 146.448, \"end\": 146.728, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 146.728, \"end\": 146.848, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 146.848, \"end\": 147.069, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 147.069, \"end\": 147.289, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 147.289, \"end\": 147.589, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 147.589, \"end\": 147.769, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 147.769, \"end\": 147.889, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 147.889, \"end\": 148.149, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 148.149, \"end\": 148.29, \"score\": 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\"start\": 334.416, \"end\": 334.436, \"score\": 0.004}]}, {\"start\": 335.605, \"end\": 360.876, \"text\": \"例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好 未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好 再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好 司法院今天有來嗎好 謝謝\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 335.605, \"end\": 335.765, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 335.765, \"end\": 336.285, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 336.285, \"end\": 336.506, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 336.506, \"end\": 337.006, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 337.006, \"end\": 337.406, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 337.406, \"end\": 337.606, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 337.606, \"end\": 337.726, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 337.726, \"end\": 337.906, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 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\"第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 365.492, \"end\": 365.873, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 365.873, \"end\": 366.253, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 366.253, \"end\": 366.573, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 366.573, \"end\": 366.713, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 366.713, \"end\": 366.913, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 366.913, \"end\": 367.434, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 367.434, \"end\": 367.654, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 367.654, \"end\": 368.254, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 368.254, \"end\": 368.434, \"score\": 0.968}, 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589.475, \"end\": 589.615, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 589.615, \"end\": 589.795, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 589.795, \"end\": 589.955, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"旁\", \"start\": 589.955, \"end\": 589.975, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:26,055\n主席我們請黃次長好請黃次長次長你好這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關\n\n2\n00:00:27,381 --> 00:00:36,074\n公文報告國安法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委會來審理\n\n3\n00:00:37,088 --> 00:00:58,870\n所以未来主管机关是行政院还是行政院所以行政院会跨部会协调大家但是今天我们看到立法院有九个修法版本那在我看来的时候我真的觉得不可思议我要讲一下过去这几年在民进党的主导之下我们在2019年修了国安无法然后也立了反渗透法\n\n4\n00:01:00,251 --> 00:01:09,136\n2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多\n\n5\n00:01:12,219 --> 00:01:38,372\n而四隔三年我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之\n\n6\n00:01:39,873 --> 00:02:03,648\n我認為啦雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了因為呢把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼涉及國家安全或者是公共利益這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎\n\n7\n00:02:05,670 --> 00:02:25,336\n國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語\n\n8\n00:02:26,428 --> 00:02:51,710\n那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧\n\n9\n00:02:53,791 --> 00:02:56,712\n黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎\n\n10\n00:03:18,377 --> 00:03:39,997\n這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰\n\n11\n00:03:42,182 --> 00:04:07,323\n如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如Google\n\n12\n00:04:08,064 --> 00:04:33,625\n脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗\n\n13\n00:04:34,923 --> 00:04:57,472\n好麻煩請您上台一下謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎\n\n14\n00:05:00,318 --> 00:05:26,999\n跟委員報告其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以\n\n15\n00:05:28,066 --> 00:05:34,436\n因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如\n\n16\n00:05:35,605 --> 00:06:00,876\n例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好司法院今天有來嗎好謝謝\n\n17\n00:06:05,492 --> 00:06:33,112\n第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以\n\n18\n00:06:34,261 --> 00:06:36,763\n這樣的見解這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎\n\n19\n00:06:50,514 --> 00:07:04,267\n加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好\n\n20\n00:07:05,969 --> 00:07:30,565\n1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反\n\n21\n00:07:35,428 --> 00:07:52,546\n就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年\n\n22\n00:07:54,608 --> 00:08:06,113\n這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視\n\n23\n00:08:14,376 --> 00:08:30,346\n難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共\n\n24\n00:08:31,526 --> 00:08:44,891\n綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況\n\n25\n00:08:48,852 --> 00:09:03,664\n上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委\n\n26\n00:09:04,813 --> 00:09:23,465\n不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下\n\n27\n00:09:24,446 --> 00:09:49,975\n以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t26055\t主席我們請黃次長好請黃次長次長你好這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關\n27381\t36074\t公文報告國安法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委會來審理\n37088\t58870\t所以未来主管机关是行政院还是行政院所以行政院会跨部会协调大家但是今天我们看到立法院有九个修法版本那在我看来的时候我真的觉得不可思议我要讲一下过去这几年在民进党的主导之下我们在2019年修了国安无法然后也立了反渗透法\n60251\t69136\t2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多\n72219\t98372\t而四隔三年我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之\n99873\t123648\t我認為啦 雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎\n125670\t145336\t國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語\n146428\t171710\t那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧\n173791\t176712\t黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎\n198377\t219997\t這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰\n222182\t247323\t如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如 Google\n248064\t273625\t脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗\n274923\t297472\t好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎\n300318\t326999\t跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以\n328066\t334436\t因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如\n335605\t360876\t例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好 未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好 再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好 司法院今天有來嗎好 謝謝\n365492\t393112\t第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以\n394261\t396763\t這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎\n410514\t424267\t加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好\n425969\t450565\t1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反\n455428\t472546\t就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年\n474608\t486113\t這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視\n494376\t510346\t難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共\n511526\t524891\t綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況\n528852\t543664\t上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委\n544813\t563465\t不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下\n564446\t589975\t以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝\n","txt":"主席我們請黃次長好請黃次長次長你好這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關\n公文報告國安法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委會來審理\n所以未来主管机关是行政院还是行政院所以行政院会跨部会协调大家但是今天我们看到立法院有九个修法版本那在我看来的时候我真的觉得不可思议我要讲一下过去这几年在民进党的主导之下我们在2019年修了国安无法然后也立了反渗透法\n2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多\n而四隔三年我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之\n我認為啦 雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎\n國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語\n那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧\n黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎\n這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰\n如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如 Google\n脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗\n好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎\n跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以\n因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如\n例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好 未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好 再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好 司法院今天有來嗎好 謝謝\n第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以\n這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎\n加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好\n1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反\n就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年\n這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視\n難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共\n綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況\n上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委\n不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下\n以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:26.055\n主席我們請黃次長好請黃次長次長你好這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關\n\n00:27.381 --> 00:36.074\n公文報告國安法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委會來審理\n\n00:37.088 --> 00:58.870\n所以未来主管机关是行政院还是行政院所以行政院会跨部会协调大家但是今天我们看到立法院有九个修法版本那在我看来的时候我真的觉得不可思议我要讲一下过去这几年在民进党的主导之下我们在2019年修了国安无法然后也立了反渗透法\n\n01:00.251 --> 01:09.136\n2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多\n\n01:12.219 --> 01:38.372\n而四隔三年我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之\n\n01:39.873 --> 02:03.648\n我認為啦雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了因為呢把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼涉及國家安全或者是公共利益這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎\n\n02:05.670 --> 02:25.336\n國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語\n\n02:26.428 --> 02:51.710\n那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧\n\n02:53.791 --> 02:56.712\n黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎\n\n03:18.377 --> 03:39.997\n這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰\n\n03:42.182 --> 04:07.323\n如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如Google\n\n04:08.064 --> 04:33.625\n脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗\n\n04:34.923 --> 04:57.472\n好麻煩請您上台一下謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎\n\n05:00.318 --> 05:26.999\n跟委員報告其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以\n\n05:28.066 --> 05:34.436\n因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如\n\n05:35.605 --> 06:00.876\n例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好司法院今天有來嗎好謝謝\n\n06:05.492 --> 06:33.112\n第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以\n\n06:34.261 --> 06:36.763\n這樣的見解這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎\n\n06:50.514 --> 07:04.267\n加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好\n\n07:05.969 --> 07:30.565\n1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反\n\n07:35.428 --> 07:52.546\n就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年\n\n07:54.608 --> 08:06.113\n這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視\n\n08:14.376 --> 08:30.346\n難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共\n\n08:31.526 --> 08:44.891\n綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況\n\n08:48.852 --> 09:03.664\n上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委\n\n09:04.813 --> 09:23.465\n不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下\n\n09:24.446 --> 09:49.975\n以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":26.055,"text":"主席我們請黃次長好請黃次長次長你好這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關"},{"start":27.381,"end":36.074,"text":"公文報告國安法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委會來審理"},{"start":37.088,"end":58.87,"text":"所以未来主管机关是行政院还是行政院所以行政院会跨部会协调大家但是今天我们看到立法院有九个修法版本那在我看来的时候我真的觉得不可思议我要讲一下过去这几年在民进党的主导之下我们在2019年修了国安无法然后也立了反渗透法"},{"start":60.251,"end":69.136,"text":"2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多"},{"start":72.219,"end":98.372,"text":"而四隔三年我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之"},{"start":99.873,"end":123.648,"text":"我認為啦 雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎"},{"start":125.67,"end":145.336,"text":"國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語"},{"start":146.428,"end":171.71,"text":"那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧"},{"start":173.791,"end":176.712,"text":"黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎"},{"start":198.377,"end":219.997,"text":"這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰"},{"start":222.182,"end":247.323,"text":"如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如 Google"},{"start":248.064,"end":273.625,"text":"脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗"},{"start":274.923,"end":297.472,"text":"好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎"},{"start":300.318,"end":326.999,"text":"跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以"},{"start":328.066,"end":334.436,"text":"因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如"},{"start":335.605,"end":360.876,"text":"例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好 未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好 再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好 司法院今天有來嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":365.492,"end":393.112,"text":"第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以"},{"start":394.261,"end":396.763,"text":"這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎"},{"start":410.514,"end":424.267,"text":"加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好"},{"start":425.969,"end":450.565,"text":"1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反"},{"start":455.428,"end":472.546,"text":"就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年"},{"start":474.608,"end":486.113,"text":"這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":494.376,"end":510.346,"text":"難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共"},{"start":511.526,"end":524.891,"text":"綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況"},{"start":528.852,"end":543.664,"text":"上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委"},{"start":544.813,"end":563.465,"text":"不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下"},{"start":564.446,"end":589.975,"text":"以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我們請黃次長。"],["主席：好，請黃次長。"],["高金委員素梅：次長，你好。這次國安法修法，請問一下，行政院為什麼沒有提出版本？"],["黃次長世杰：我們目前正在盤點跟研議、研擬條文中。"],["高金委員素梅：所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問一下哪個部會是主管機關？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，國安法裡面，因為事涉跨部會，目前它是掛在行政院直接主管，所以在大院是內政委員會來審議。"],["高金委員素梅：所以未來主管機關是行政院？"],["黃次長世杰：還是行政院。"],["高金委員素梅：所以行政院會跨部會協調大家，但是今天我們看到立法院有9個修法版本，在我看來，我真的覺得不可思議。我要講一下，過去這幾年在民進黨的主導之下，我們在2019年修了國安五法，也立了反滲透法，2022年又修了國家安全法。我們現在打開全國法規資料庫，只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多，而事隔3年，我們又要再一次來修國安法，我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴，管制的範圍也越來越寬。","我們看一下陳冠廷委員的版本，陳委員把原來的國安法第二條第二款條文當中「公務上應秘密之」改成了「涉及國家安全或公共利益上應秘密之」，我認為雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍，但是我認為是擴大了，為什麼擴大了？因為原來的範圍明確講的是「公務」卻變成了什麼？「涉及國家安全或公共利益」這麼模糊的用語，這麼一修改，不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎？國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義？司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑，請問國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門為主管機關？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這在不同的法令裡面都會有用到類似的用法，但是因為我們的書面意見已經提出來，認為這個修正條文的修法方向可能會有一些明確性或者是範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮，所以我們是建請再行斟酌。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以我們再來看王定宇的版本，他修訂第二條第一款的內容，恐怕連一般關心社會、熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪，對吧？然後黃捷委員版……"],["黃次長世杰：我想……"],["高金委員素梅：你可以不用回答，謝謝，因為我們兩個的見解可能有所不同，而且今天時間也有限。","而黃捷委員版本的第二條第二款，她剛剛也做出提案說明，甚至對於「以聲明、會議、連署或其他形式」表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能，這不就是思想審查嗎？這也不就是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎？然後，我們再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說，要透過所謂的「資通安全產品定期評估機制並提出限制建議清單」，不准應用程式商店提供下載和更新，否則將受罰。如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的資通產品，這樣也違反國安法，危害國家安全嗎？我們看一下，現在一般的資通產品都會在使用者同意之下蒐集用戶資訊，作為他們大數據算法的依據，例如Google、臉書、LINE、抖音、Threads，難道這些資通產品也要通通被限制嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，請問現在是要我回答嗎？因為剛剛你說我不用回答……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我在看您啊，因為你剛剛一直看我，所以你認為呢？"],["黃次長世杰：你剛剛說我不用回答……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你認為第四條呢？這不是你管的吧？"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分應該是剛剛數發部有說明。"],["高金委員素梅：對，這不是你管的，數發部有在嗎？好，麻煩請您上臺一下，謝謝。次長可以休息一下。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：我們請數發部司長。"],["高金委員素梅：陳冠廷委員的版本第十條說到資通安全，請問一下Google、臉書、LINE、抖音、Threads，難道這些資通產品要通通限制嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：跟委員報告，其實陳冠廷委員提的有關資通安全產品的部分，目前我們資安署有在修正資通安全管理法，有把危害國家資通安全產品放到我們的母法裡面，對於危害國家資通安全產品，我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制，提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關哪一些產品是不得下載使用。"],["高金委員素梅：你們目前所蒐集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以？"],["牛司長信仁：因為目前這個法還在修，以現階段來講，我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的資通訊產品。"],["高金委員素梅：例如？"],["牛司長信仁：例如在公務機關的話，我們規定不得使用大陸廠牌像小米、華為這類的。"],["高金委員素梅：所以是公務機關對吧？"],["牛司長信仁：對。"],["高金委員素梅：它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛？"],["牛司長信仁：目前沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，未來這個法修了之後，好像只要是公共利益的都有。再來。陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到要設立國家安全專業法庭，這部分次長就可以來了，這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，這個是司法院的業務。"],["高金委員素梅：好，司法院今天有來嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請吳法官。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。第十九條要設立國家安全專業法庭，這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎？請問。"],["吳法官元曜：是的，現在全國各法院還有高等法院分院都有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，按照陳委員的修法說明所說，這幾年來因為違反國家安全法相關案件的判刑都是輕判和易科罰金，這好像跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關，所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以，這樣的見解、這樣的修法，不就和當年白色恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎？要用軍法官來判案，然後首謀判刑至少要十五年以上，這不是戒嚴，什麼才是戒嚴啊？你同意這樣的修法嗎？"],["吳法官元曜：加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["吳法官元曜：也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝你，最後我在這裡用一點點時間，我要舉一個血淋淋的例子，請大家聽好。1949年國民政府在反共國策之下宣布了戒嚴，不久之後就用一紙行政命令發布山地管制，這樣的管制管制了30個山地鄉，幾乎臺灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區，當年為什麼要管制山地呢？就是為了平地人民跑到山區裡面，撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反、為匪宣傳，為了搜查，警察可以用所謂山地清查的名義，任意衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃，查不到傳單，查到山豬肉也是犯法，愛玉子也是違禁品，而這樣的管制維持了40年。這40年裡面，我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價？它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後，而我們兩、三代的原住民族人必須要離開家鄉，到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣掙扎討生活，還要被嚴重歧視，難道就因為執政者所謂國家安全的反共需要，我們人民就必須要背負這樣沉重的歷史代價嗎？這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省、清理乾淨，而新的反共、綠色恐怖又要假借所謂國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎？而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕、搜索我們的人民嗎？所以我堅決反對，更何況上次的修法，行政院有提出院版喔！這次卻沒有，而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議，所以我要建議我們今天的召委，不需要這麼快的來逐條審查，等行政院的版本進來了以後，大家好好的討論。","最後我要講的是，我堅決反對倉促的修法，也堅決反對國安法修成戒嚴法。看一下，以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊，現在我們所有一般的民眾，你們要注意啦！小心國安就在你身邊啊！以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系、軍公教人員，現在這個法一修，一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法，所以我最後的結論是：小心，國安就在你旁邊！謝謝。"],["主席：感謝高金素梅委員質詢。","我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}