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\"那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 368.561, \"end\": 368.681, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 368.681, \"end\": 368.821, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 368.821, \"end\": 369.061, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 369.061, \"end\": 369.741, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 369.741, \"end\": 370.702, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 370.702, \"end\": 371.802, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 371.802, \"end\": 372.402, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"圍\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.402, \"end\": 372.682, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 372.682, \"end\": 373.023, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, 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438.34, \"end\": 438.36, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 438.36, \"end\": 438.42, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 438.42, \"end\": 438.52, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 438.52, \"end\": 438.54, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,630 --> 00:00:10,028\n我先請陸委會副主委加陸委會主委所以委員好\n\n2\n00:00:11,491 --> 00:00:35,106\n副主委剛剛也有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在我們就舉一個最近的例子好了\n\n3\n00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:57,666\n這個副主委如果說連民政處長民政局長都可以洩露個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩露了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大可能性很大因為\n\n4\n00:00:58,866 --> 00:01:24,481\n老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統兵役資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好來\n\n5\n00:01:35,287 --> 00:01:44,059\n我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能?是會有可能都有可能嗎?那你們要查一下啊\n\n6\n00:01:45,946 --> 00:02:11,219\n其實在護證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂護證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反個資法的問題不知道護醫證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會\n\n7\n00:02:14,101 --> 00:02:15,767\n會嘛是那你們要查一下啊\n\n8\n00:02:20,486 --> 00:02:43,565\n這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處那個是檢調機關啦身為呼籲症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合\n\n9\n00:02:44,738 --> 00:03:11,553\n不是啦你回答我的這等於是官話嘛對不對現在大家就在這邊講這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊對不對你本於全責你全台灣可能要查一下啊對不對誰有不法使用誰有什麼的你們就要喝止未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不法使用的這個啊你們應該要主動查啊\n\n10\n00:03:12,694 --> 00:03:35,967\n對不對民眾的個資你如果這樣回答哇全台灣人都擔心全台灣人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了在行政管理上當然我們會促請地方政府也要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合我們看看你們怎麼做\n\n11\n00:03:41,597 --> 00:04:01,820\n來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是\n\n12\n00:04:03,196 --> 00:04:26,273\n報告委員其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄因為它其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為\n\n13\n00:04:28,563 --> 00:04:51,693\n絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的那所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄處罰的行為也非常有限\n\n14\n00:04:53,414 --> 00:05:08,997\n所以我們的國安法我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的好謝謝副主委我請那個次長次長跟司法院來我們家的次長司法院\n\n15\n00:05:19,794 --> 00:05:37,710\n我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理\n\n16\n00:05:40,073 --> 00:06:07,711\n跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規\n\n17\n00:06:08,561 --> 00:06:31,309\n那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是\n\n18\n00:06:34,804 --> 00:06:46,309\n這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解好沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要\n\n19\n00:06:47,535 --> 00:07:04,204\n我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎\n\n20\n00:07:05,575 --> 00:07:18,540\n次長你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員都有說明至少就這個推幅的機制還有這個剝奪的部分已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分我們也在進行好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n630\t10028\t我先請陸委會副主委加陸委會主委所以委員好\n11491\t35106\t副主委剛剛也有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在我們就舉一個最近的例子好了\n36236\t57666\t這個副主委如果說連民政處長民政局長都可以洩露個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩露了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大可能性很大因為\n58866\t84481\t老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統兵役資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好來\n95287\t104059\t我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能?是會有可能都有可能嗎?那你們要查一下啊\n105946\t131219\t其實在護證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂護證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反個資法的問題不知道護醫證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會\n134101\t135767\t會嘛是那你們要查一下啊\n140486\t163565\t這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處那個是檢調機關啦身為呼籲症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合\n164738\t191553\t不是啦 你回答我的這等於是官話嘛 對不對現在大家就在這邊講 這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊 對不對你本於全責 你全台灣可能要查一下啊 對不對誰有不法使用 誰有什麼的 你們就要喝止未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不法使用的這個啊 你們應該要主動查啊\n192694\t215967\t對不對 民眾的個資 你如果這樣回答 哇 全台灣人都擔心全台灣人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了在行政管理上 當然我們會促請地方政府也要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合 我們看看你們怎麼做\n221597\t241820\t來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是\n243196\t266273\t報告委員 其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄因為它其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為\n268563\t291693\t絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的那所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄處罰的行為也非常有限\n293414\t308997\t所以我們的國安法 我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的好 謝謝副主委我請那個次長 次長跟司法院來 我們家的次長司法院\n319794\t337710\t我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理\n340073\t367711\t跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規\n368561\t391309\t那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是\n394804\t406309\t這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解好沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要\n407535\t424204\t我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎\n425575\t438540\t次長你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員都有說明至少就這個推幅的機制還有這個剝奪的部分已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分我們也在進行好謝謝\n","txt":"我先請陸委會副主委加陸委會主委所以委員好\n副主委剛剛也有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在我們就舉一個最近的例子好了\n這個副主委如果說連民政處長民政局長都可以洩露個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩露了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大可能性很大因為\n老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統兵役資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好來\n我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能?是會有可能都有可能嗎?那你們要查一下啊\n其實在護證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂護證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反個資法的問題不知道護醫證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會\n會嘛是那你們要查一下啊\n這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處那個是檢調機關啦身為呼籲症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合\n不是啦 你回答我的這等於是官話嘛 對不對現在大家就在這邊講 這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊 對不對你本於全責 你全台灣可能要查一下啊 對不對誰有不法使用 誰有什麼的 你們就要喝止未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不法使用的這個啊 你們應該要主動查啊\n對不對 民眾的個資 你如果這樣回答 哇 全台灣人都擔心全台灣人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了在行政管理上 當然我們會促請地方政府也要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合 我們看看你們怎麼做\n來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是\n報告委員 其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄因為它其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為\n絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的那所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄處罰的行為也非常有限\n所以我們的國安法 我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的好 謝謝副主委我請那個次長 次長跟司法院來 我們家的次長司法院\n我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理\n跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規\n那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是\n這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解好沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要\n我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎\n次長你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員都有說明至少就這個推幅的機制還有這個剝奪的部分已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分我們也在進行好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.630 --> 00:10.028\n我先請陸委會副主委加陸委會主委所以委員好\n\n00:11.491 --> 00:35.106\n副主委剛剛也有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在我們就舉一個最近的例子好了\n\n00:36.236 --> 00:57.666\n這個副主委如果說連民政處長民政局長都可以洩露個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩露了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大可能性很大因為\n\n00:58.866 --> 01:24.481\n老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統兵役資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好來\n\n01:35.287 --> 01:44.059\n我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能?是會有可能都有可能嗎?那你們要查一下啊\n\n01:45.946 --> 02:11.219\n其實在護證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂護證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反個資法的問題不知道護醫證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會\n\n02:14.101 --> 02:15.767\n會嘛是那你們要查一下啊\n\n02:20.486 --> 02:43.565\n這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處那個是檢調機關啦身為呼籲症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合\n\n02:44.738 --> 03:11.553\n不是啦你回答我的這等於是官話嘛對不對現在大家就在這邊講這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊對不對你本於全責你全台灣可能要查一下啊對不對誰有不法使用誰有什麼的你們就要喝止未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不法使用的這個啊你們應該要主動查啊\n\n03:12.694 --> 03:35.967\n對不對民眾的個資你如果這樣回答哇全台灣人都擔心全台灣人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了在行政管理上當然我們會促請地方政府也要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合我們看看你們怎麼做\n\n03:41.597 --> 04:01.820\n來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是\n\n04:03.196 --> 04:26.273\n報告委員其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄因為它其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為\n\n04:28.563 --> 04:51.693\n絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的那所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄處罰的行為也非常有限\n\n04:53.414 --> 05:08.997\n所以我們的國安法我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的好謝謝副主委我請那個次長次長跟司法院來我們家的次長司法院\n\n05:19.794 --> 05:37.710\n我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理\n\n05:40.073 --> 06:07.711\n跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規\n\n06:08.561 --> 06:31.309\n那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是\n\n06:34.804 --> 06:46.309\n這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解好沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要\n\n06:47.535 --> 07:04.204\n我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎\n\n07:05.575 --> 07:18.540\n次長你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員都有說明至少就這個推幅的機制還有這個剝奪的部分已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分我們也在進行好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.63,"end":10.028,"text":"我先請陸委會副主委加陸委會主委所以委員好"},{"start":11.491,"end":35.106,"text":"副主委剛剛也有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在我們就舉一個最近的例子好了"},{"start":36.236,"end":57.666,"text":"這個副主委如果說連民政處長民政局長都可以洩露個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩露了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大可能性很大因為"},{"start":58.866,"end":84.481,"text":"老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統兵役資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好來"},{"start":95.287,"end":104.059,"text":"我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能?是會有可能都有可能嗎?那你們要查一下啊"},{"start":105.946,"end":131.219,"text":"其實在護證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂護證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反個資法的問題不知道護醫證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會"},{"start":134.101,"end":135.767,"text":"會嘛是那你們要查一下啊"},{"start":140.486,"end":163.565,"text":"這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處那個是檢調機關啦身為呼籲症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合"},{"start":164.738,"end":191.553,"text":"不是啦 你回答我的這等於是官話嘛 對不對現在大家就在這邊講 這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊 對不對你本於全責 你全台灣可能要查一下啊 對不對誰有不法使用 誰有什麼的 你們就要喝止未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不法使用的這個啊 你們應該要主動查啊"},{"start":192.694,"end":215.967,"text":"對不對 民眾的個資 你如果這樣回答 哇 全台灣人都擔心全台灣人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了在行政管理上 當然我們會促請地方政府也要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合 我們看看你們怎麼做"},{"start":221.597,"end":241.82,"text":"來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是"},{"start":243.196,"end":266.273,"text":"報告委員 其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄因為它其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為"},{"start":268.563,"end":291.693,"text":"絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的那所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄處罰的行為也非常有限"},{"start":293.414,"end":308.997,"text":"所以我們的國安法 我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的好 謝謝副主委我請那個次長 次長跟司法院來 我們家的次長司法院"},{"start":319.794,"end":337.71,"text":"我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理"},{"start":340.073,"end":367.711,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規"},{"start":368.561,"end":391.309,"text":"那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是"},{"start":394.804,"end":406.309,"text":"這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解好沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要"},{"start":407.535,"end":424.204,"text":"我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎"},{"start":425.575,"end":438.54,"text":"次長你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員都有說明至少就這個推幅的機制還有這個剝奪的部分已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分我們也在進行好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時56分）我先請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請陸委會副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，剛剛也有很多的委員質詢，關於我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態，其實是非常多的，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯啦！以前都說匪諜在身邊、匪諜在身邊，我們就舉一個最近的例子好了，副主委，如果說連民政處長都可以洩漏個資，其實我們的個資是不是也很有可能早就被洩漏了？你認為有沒有這種可能？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：可能性很大，老實講，我們很多個資是散落在各個政府機關裡面，像戶政系統或者是入出境管理系統、兵役資料的管理等等，基本上所有的這些資料，都是對岸有興趣的資料。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，所以它最想要的其實就是拿我們這個嘛！","戶政司有沒有人來？我剛剛說的這個，有沒有可能？"],["陳司長永智：是有可能。"],["張委員宏陸：都有可能嘛！"],["陳司長永智：是。"],["張委員宏陸：那你們要查一下啊！"],["陳司長永智：在戶政機關來說，它是利用到所謂戶政系統，其實是屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料，所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用，超出這樣一個法定使用的目的之外，就會有違反個資法的問題。"],["張委員宏陸：戶役政系統裡面，任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧？"],["陳司長永智：會。"],["張委員宏陸：會嘛！那你們要查一下啊！"],["陳司長永智：這個部分……"],["張委員宏陸：這個問題已經發生了，你知道嗎？"],["陳司長永智：是，跟委員報告……"],["張委員宏陸：已經發生了啊！"],["陳司長永智：是，如果涉及不法的話，現在檢調機關已經在查處。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，那個是檢調機關啦，你們身為戶役政管理系統的管理者，就全部丟給他們？你這樣怎麼保護人民呢？"],["陳司長永智：沒有，我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做稽核。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，你回答我的等於是官話嘛，對不對？現在大家就在這邊講，這個是很有可能發生的，那你們就要本於權責，對不對？你本於權責，全臺灣可能要查一下啊，對不對？誰有不法使用或什麼的，你們就要遏止未來可能發生的事，對於這段期間誰有不法使用的事情，你們應該要主動查，對不對？民眾的個資耶！你如果這樣回答，哇！全臺灣人都要擔心了喔！"],["陳司長永智：在行政上當然……"],["張委員宏陸：全臺灣人的個資，不知道被賣到哪裡去了囉？"],["陳司長永智：在行政管理上，當然我們會促請地方政府也要依照相關法令來做，我們也會做監督跟稽核。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你們會做稽核，我們等著看你們怎麼做。"],["陳司長永智：是。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，現在國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞，比如有很多民意代表之類的到中國去，其實他做什麼也都不用特別申報或做什麼動作，也都不用啊！是不是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已，它涵蓋的層面非常的窄，因為它只處罰兩種行為，就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織，大概就這兩種行為。但其實違反國家安全的行為絕對不只這兩種，大家可以參考一下譬如韓國的國安法，它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的。我們的國安法，我不太知道當初的立法原由，但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄，處罰的行為也非常非常有限，所以我們的國安法，我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西啦！"],["張委員宏陸：好，所以這才是今天大家要修法、要來說的，好，謝謝副主委。我請次長跟司法院吳法官。"],["主席：我們請次長、司法院吳法官。"],["張委員宏陸：我想直接請教一個很實際的問題，未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後，若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪，在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是要分開審理還是合併審理？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為目前軍事審判相關法案的研議還是由國防部主責，我們是協助它共同討論未來要怎麼樣來切分。至於相關的範圍，還有審判權、職權之間如何劃分，還有共犯的問題，其實都還在研議當中。"],["張委員宏陸：好，那司法院呢？"],["吳法官元曜：報告委員，因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規，據了解他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人，非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理，不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，所以我剛剛點出來的問題，一個退役的、一個現役的，要分開審？是不是這樣的意思？是不是？"],["吳法官元曜：詳情可能要問國防部。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦……"],["吳法官元曜：大概目前了解是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：沒關係。所以有很多的例子，剛剛我舉了幾個例子了，你說國安法有沒有修正的必要？我的結論是這樣，我剛剛講有那麼多的案例，所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊！有的人說不需要修國安法，但我認為有這麼多……我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了，這沒有必要修法嗎？次長，你要回答嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：其實我們在剛剛報告裡面，還有回答委員時也都有說明，至少就退撫的機制還有剝奪的部分已經在進行了，還有在關於參與組織的部分，我們也在進行了。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝張宏陸召委質詢。","我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}