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\"text\": \"光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 246.255, \"end\": 246.435, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 246.435, \"end\": 246.575, \"score\": 0.599}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 246.575, \"end\": 246.735, \"score\": 0.621}, {\"word\": \"博\", \"start\": 246.735, \"end\": 246.916, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 246.916, \"end\": 247.116, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 247.116, \"end\": 247.496, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 247.496, \"end\": 247.696, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 247.696, \"end\": 247.876, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 247.876, \"end\": 248.016, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 248.016, \"end\": 248.197, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"附\", \"start\": 248.197, \"end\": 248.317, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"中\", 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\"start\": 486.52, \"end\": 486.68, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 486.68, \"end\": 486.7, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 486.7, \"end\": 486.72, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:08,680\n好謝謝主席我們先請盧委會副主委請副主委是委員好\n\n2\n00:00:09,315 --> 00:00:31,388\n好副主委先跟你請教你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢我舉個例子因為像譬如說像第二條我們只處罰發展組織為中共發展組織的發展這個主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪但是\n\n3\n00:00:32,469 --> 00:00:57,229\n加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人\n\n4\n00:00:58,528 --> 00:01:20,685\n所以最後是用貪汙罪因為他有收賄所以是用貪汙罪來辦那所以這個部分呢我們是認為說如果你只只辦主持人發展者但是沒有辦加入者這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說在第二條裡面要這個\n\n5\n00:01:23,463 --> 00:01:38,796\n參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個應該是有共識的好謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華\n\n6\n00:01:51,446 --> 00:02:05,855\n到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的\n\n7\n00:02:06,795 --> 00:02:28,809\n那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下\n\n8\n00:02:29,309 --> 00:02:55,587\n所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎\n\n9\n00:02:56,943 --> 00:03:19,454\n應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎\n\n10\n00:03:20,154 --> 00:03:36,184\n好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛\n\n11\n00:03:36,704 --> 00:04:05,475\n目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情\n\n12\n00:04:06,255 --> 00:04:28,152\n光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎\n\n13\n00:04:29,173 --> 00:04:56,522\n唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到那我就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的手法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到\n\n14\n00:04:57,102 --> 00:05:20,735\n那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子\n\n15\n00:05:22,421 --> 00:05:38,032\n那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分\n\n16\n00:05:39,333 --> 00:06:04,915\n這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議\n\n17\n00:06:05,535 --> 00:06:29,720\n好這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上英秘密的定義公務上英秘密\n\n18\n00:06:33,567 --> 00:06:53,820\n為什麼會這樣問呢?是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共\n\n19\n00:06:54,580 --> 00:07:19,865\n那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣\n\n20\n00:07:20,985 --> 00:07:45,849\n那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来\n\n21\n00:07:46,243 --> 00:08:06,720\n好謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t8680\t好 謝謝主席 我們先請盧委會副主委請副主委是 委員好\n9315\t31388\t好 副主委 先跟你請教 你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢我舉個例子 因為像譬如說像第二條我們只處罰發展組織 為中共發展組織的發展這個主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪 但是\n32469\t57229\t加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人\n58528\t80685\t所以最後是用貪汙罪因為他有收賄 所以是用貪汙罪來辦那所以這個部分呢 我們是認為說如果你只只辦主持人 發展者但是沒有辦加入者這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說在第二條裡面要這個\n83463\t98796\t參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個應該是有共識的好 謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華\n111446\t125855\t到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的\n126795\t148809\t那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下\n149309\t175587\t所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎\n176943\t199454\t應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎\n200154\t216184\t好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛\n216704\t245475\t目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情\n246255\t268152\t光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎\n269173\t296522\t唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到那我就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的手法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到\n297102\t320735\t那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子\n322421\t338032\t那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分\n339333\t364915\t這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議\n365535\t389720\t好 這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上英秘密的定義公務上英秘密\n393567\t413820\t為什麼會這樣問呢?是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購 接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片 國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共\n414580\t439865\t那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣\n440985\t465849\t那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来\n466243\t486720\t好 謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請盧委會副主委請副主委是 委員好\n好 副主委 先跟你請教 你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢我舉個例子 因為像譬如說像第二條我們只處罰發展組織 為中共發展組織的發展這個主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪 但是\n加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人\n所以最後是用貪汙罪因為他有收賄 所以是用貪汙罪來辦那所以這個部分呢 我們是認為說如果你只只辦主持人 發展者但是沒有辦加入者這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說在第二條裡面要這個\n參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個應該是有共識的好 謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華\n到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的\n那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下\n所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎\n應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎\n好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛\n目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情\n光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎\n唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到那我就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的手法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到\n那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子\n那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分\n這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議\n好 這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上英秘密的定義公務上英秘密\n為什麼會這樣問呢?是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購 接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片 國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共\n那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣\n那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来\n好 謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:08.680\n好謝謝主席我們先請盧委會副主委請副主委是委員好\n\n00:09.315 --> 00:31.388\n好副主委先跟你請教你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢我舉個例子因為像譬如說像第二條我們只處罰發展組織為中共發展組織的發展這個主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪但是\n\n00:32.469 --> 00:57.229\n加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人\n\n00:58.528 --> 01:20.685\n所以最後是用貪汙罪因為他有收賄所以是用貪汙罪來辦那所以這個部分呢我們是認為說如果你只只辦主持人發展者但是沒有辦加入者這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說在第二條裡面要這個\n\n01:23.463 --> 01:38.796\n參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個應該是有共識的好謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華\n\n01:51.446 --> 02:05.855\n到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的\n\n02:06.795 --> 02:28.809\n那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下\n\n02:29.309 --> 02:55.587\n所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎\n\n02:56.943 --> 03:19.454\n應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎\n\n03:20.154 --> 03:36.184\n好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛\n\n03:36.704 --> 04:05.475\n目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情\n\n04:06.255 --> 04:28.152\n光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎\n\n04:29.173 --> 04:56.522\n唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到那我就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的手法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到\n\n04:57.102 --> 05:20.735\n那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子\n\n05:22.421 --> 05:38.032\n那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分\n\n05:39.333 --> 06:04.915\n這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議\n\n06:05.535 --> 06:29.720\n好這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上英秘密的定義公務上英秘密\n\n06:33.567 --> 06:53.820\n為什麼會這樣問呢?是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共\n\n06:54.580 --> 07:19.865\n那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣\n\n07:20.985 --> 07:45.849\n那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来\n\n07:46.243 --> 08:06.720\n好謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":8.68,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請盧委會副主委請副主委是 委員好"},{"start":9.315,"end":31.388,"text":"好 副主委 先跟你請教 你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢我舉個例子 因為像譬如說像第二條我們只處罰發展組織 為中共發展組織的發展這個主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪 但是"},{"start":32.469,"end":57.229,"text":"加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人"},{"start":58.528,"end":80.685,"text":"所以最後是用貪汙罪因為他有收賄 所以是用貪汙罪來辦那所以這個部分呢 我們是認為說如果你只只辦主持人 發展者但是沒有辦加入者這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說在第二條裡面要這個"},{"start":83.463,"end":98.796,"text":"參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個應該是有共識的好 謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華"},{"start":111.446,"end":125.855,"text":"到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的"},{"start":126.795,"end":148.809,"text":"那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下"},{"start":149.309,"end":175.587,"text":"所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎"},{"start":176.943,"end":199.454,"text":"應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎"},{"start":200.154,"end":216.184,"text":"好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛"},{"start":216.704,"end":245.475,"text":"目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情"},{"start":246.255,"end":268.152,"text":"光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎"},{"start":269.173,"end":296.522,"text":"唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到那我就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的手法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到"},{"start":297.102,"end":320.735,"text":"那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子"},{"start":322.421,"end":338.032,"text":"那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分"},{"start":339.333,"end":364.915,"text":"這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議"},{"start":365.535,"end":389.72,"text":"好 這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上英秘密的定義公務上英秘密"},{"start":393.567,"end":413.82,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢?是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購 接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片 國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共"},{"start":414.58,"end":439.865,"text":"那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣"},{"start":440.985,"end":465.849,"text":"那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来"},{"start":466.243,"end":486.72,"text":"好 謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時4分）謝謝主席，我們先請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好。副主委，先跟你請教，你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有！"],["黃委員捷：為什麼呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我舉個例子，譬如像第二條，我們只處罰為中共發展組織的主持人或是發起人，但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是發起人被判罪，但是加入組織的人沒事。我舉個例子，像有一位軍方的向德恩軍官，他加入了中共的組織，甚至拍照片然後要向中共宣誓效忠，但是國安法沒有辦法辦他，因為他只是加入，他不是主持人，最後是用貪污罪，因為他有收賄，所以是用貪污罪來辦，這個部分我們認為，如果只辦主持人、發展者，卻沒有辦加入者，這會造成一個很荒謬的現象，因此我們認為在第二條裡面要有參與組織者，我覺得這個應該是有共識的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副主委的說明，我認為國安法非常有修正的必要，因為就如剛剛副主委說的，加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透行為，但是卻辦不了他，他是無罪的。包括前幾個月有四個退將涉共諜案，結果全部無罪；之前甚至有一個，我也認為他是共諜，檢方也起訴了，他叫做何建華，他到處傳我跟小英總統的造假資料，到處用中共的謠言在地方上打擊我們，但是最後也被判無罪，因為證據不足。我認為有非常多空間是需要補起來的。","今天早上最新的鏡週刊新聞：中共跟臺灣的幫派有交流，甚至是收買他們作為內應，在地方上發展黑幫地圖。大家認為這個是不是中國奪臺計畫的一部分，這個就在剛剛的新聞，大家可以去看一下。所以有這麼多、這麼多的例子，就知道國安法一定要修啊！","好，副主委先請回。本席想請教一下法務部次長，國安法既然要修，剛剛你們也提到你們會有版本嘛？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["黃委員捷：什麼時候？"],["黃次長世杰：因為目前有跨機關的問題，所以我們還要配合行政院的期程，會儘快提出。"],["黃委員捷：好，今年有機會嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：應該可以。"],["黃委員捷：好，今年可以，因為這個其實是賴總統的政策，也是全臺國人都非常關心的，我在地方上也常接到民眾擔心的聲音，覺得我們國安漏洞太多了，所以我在這邊拜託，從行政院到法務部，大家務必趕快共商，把所有的漏洞補起來，好嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明。再來，我要講一下，今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞，其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見，首先我當然還是要講一下，大家知道現在臺灣最大的境外敵對勢力就是中國，目前唯一一個明確公開要以武力犯臺，甚至要侵略臺灣的國家就是中國，我想這一點是無庸置疑，可是我很遺憾，我希望先取得朝野的共識，因為在立法院裡面，看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識，我認為非常的遺憾。","昨天在程序委員會都還有人在阻擋立委赴中報備這件事情，光是沈伯洋委員提的立委赴中報備就被擋了363次，我跟張宏陸召委也提了30次之多，每一次都被擋，就連這個最基本的防範都做不到。我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心，所以我希望在這邊呼籲所有的朝野立委，大家先站出來反共好嗎？唯有這個共識，我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修、反滲透法要不要修、兩岸條例要不要修。","再來提到法條裡面的內容，我要講一下這個漏洞，像剛剛副主委提到的，參與者罰不到，就我手上的例子，很多是……因為現在他們的手法千變萬化，有很多是多重身分的偽裝，這種中間人也罰不到。另外一部分是金流，現在就算明確感覺到他可能有一些中共資金來源，但是中間可能經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣，或是其他讓你有利的方式，經過利益輸送……可是這種利益輸送很難定義，這就是我們現在遇到的困境，沒有明確的金流，不知道這個中間人的身分算不算是統戰分子，這就是我們現在一直在處理的。所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見，對於這個中間人，他們有多重身分、偽裝的，在資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義，你們有沒有初步的想法？"],["黃次長世杰：我想中間人這個部分，誠如剛才委員所說的，涉及到舉證負擔還有要件的問題，其實我們有在思考，但是因為具體案例的研析還需要一點時間，不過我們還是會認真思考這個問題，看是不是要把這個部分定進來。目前各位委員的提案版本其實比較著重於中間行為，至於金流的部分，可能要另外再來研議。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託啦，因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽，而且非常多重，他們可以用各種方式給予利益輸送，所以我認為現在最重要的應該是要想辦法找到如何定義。","最後一點時間，我想要再請法務部說明一下公務上應秘密的定義。"],["黃次長世杰：公務上應秘密？"],["黃委員捷：為什麼會這樣問呢？因為去年有一個人叫做馬治薇，馬治薇在立法院開會的時候跑來直播，結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌接受中資的資助，把國安單位的名片、國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共，檢方當然認為他洩密，認為他這些名片……後來認為這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密，所以就沒有辦法把他定罪，我認為這個是不是應該要明確定義，到底什麼叫做公務秘密呢？"],["黃次長世杰：事實上公務秘密認定的範圍比國家機密還要廣，國家機密當然有國家機密保護法及相關程序和要件，但公務上應秘密之事項事實上比這個還要廣，還是要看各個資訊在各該公務機關內部如何認定這些事情，我們對於個案還是尊重法院審理的結果，這個部分我們會再研議，看怎麼樣用一個更明確的定義去把它包進來。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明，以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已，因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了，光是一部國安法可能也很難把他們各種方式都包進來。我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要，應該要慎防統戰，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：好，請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}