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0.777}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 207.876, \"end\": 208.036, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 208.036, \"end\": 208.236, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 208.236, \"end\": 208.577, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 208.577, \"end\": 208.917, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 208.917, \"end\": 209.037, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 209.037, \"end\": 209.237, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 209.237, \"end\": 210.058, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 210.058, \"end\": 210.218, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 210.218, \"end\": 210.498, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"蠻\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 210.498, \"end\": 211.078, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 211.078, \"end\": 211.239, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 211.239, \"end\": 211.359, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 211.359, \"end\": 211.659, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 211.659, \"end\": 211.839, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 211.839, \"end\": 211.999, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 211.999, \"end\": 212.179, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 212.179, \"end\": 212.359, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 212.359, \"end\": 212.52, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 212.52, \"end\": 212.62, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 212.62, \"end\": 212.76, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"益\", \"start\": 212.76, \"end\": 212.78, \"score\": 0.151}]}, {\"start\": 213.4, \"end\": 218.506, \"text\": \"所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 213.4, \"end\": 213.58, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 213.58, \"end\": 213.881, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", 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\"希\", \"start\": 217.665, \"end\": 217.685, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 217.685, \"end\": 217.806, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 217.806, \"end\": 217.826, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 217.826, \"end\": 217.846, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 217.846, \"end\": 217.986, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 217.986, \"end\": 218.006, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 218.006, \"end\": 218.026, \"score\": 0.018}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 218.026, \"end\": 218.046, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 218.046, \"end\": 218.286, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 218.286, \"end\": 218.306, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 218.306, \"end\": 218.466, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 218.466, \"end\": 218.486, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 218.486, \"end\": 218.506, \"score\": 0.196}]}, {\"start\": 231.482, \"end\": 252.684, \"text\": \"不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 231.482, \"end\": 231.822, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 231.822, \"end\": 231.923, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 231.923, \"end\": 232.003, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 232.003, \"end\": 232.203, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 232.203, \"end\": 232.603, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 232.603, \"end\": 232.723, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 232.723, \"end\": 232.984, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 232.984, \"end\": 233.204, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, 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0.784}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 287.819, \"end\": 288.179, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 288.179, \"end\": 288.319, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 288.319, \"end\": 288.439, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 288.439, \"end\": 288.559, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 288.559, \"end\": 288.699, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 288.699, \"end\": 288.719, \"score\": 0.557}]}, {\"start\": 289.6, \"end\": 318.656, \"text\": \"我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 289.6, \"end\": 289.72, \"score\": 0.491}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 289.72, \"end\": 290.02, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 290.02, \"end\": 290.2, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 290.2, \"end\": 290.36, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"快\", 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,180 --> 00:00:07,146\n謝謝主席我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好請副主委跟次長\n\n2\n00:00:10,888 --> 00:00:35,378\n委員好副主委還有市長兩位好根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個\n\n3\n00:00:37,318 --> 00:00:52,976\n民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人\n\n4\n00:00:58,061 --> 00:01:12,817\n他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例\n\n5\n00:01:14,018 --> 00:01:37,382\n具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高啦\n\n6\n00:01:37,793 --> 00:02:00,703\n副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人\n\n7\n00:02:04,215 --> 00:02:18,500\n我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打面玩這樣子因為債務問題\n\n8\n00:02:22,081 --> 00:02:39,686\n這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法啦就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的\n\n9\n00:02:40,973 --> 00:03:01,833\n不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法\n\n10\n00:03:04,099 --> 00:03:32,780\n我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益\n\n11\n00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,506\n所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛\n\n12\n00:03:51,482 --> 00:04:12,684\n不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎\n\n13\n00:04:13,843 --> 00:04:28,444\n看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是\n\n14\n00:04:29,065 --> 00:04:48,719\n既然我們剛剛看到您的報告嘛就是如果會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步對大概預計何時會提出行政院版本\n\n15\n00:04:49,600 --> 00:05:18,656\n我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法\n\n16\n00:05:19,336 --> 00:05:45,398\n國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是\n\n17\n00:05:47,304 --> 00:06:05,950\n要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰\n\n18\n00:06:06,810 --> 00:06:33,488\n還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流\n\n19\n00:06:34,068 --> 00:06:51,755\n不是他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能\n\n20\n00:06:58,579 --> 00:07:12,414\n我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動\n\n21\n00:07:13,795 --> 00:07:28,854\n或是說你加入什麼國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下\n\n22\n00:07:29,535 --> 00:07:47,901\n我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準所以這樣的條文不是那麼適宜嗎\n\n23\n00:07:51,042 --> 00:08:05,449\n會在未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國了嗎我想刑法的修訂會很慎重一定會符合明確性跟比例原則所以一定要慎重好嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1180\t7146\t謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好 請副主委跟次長\n10888\t35378\t委員好副主委還有市長兩位好根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個\n37318\t52976\t民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人\n58061\t72817\t他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例\n74018\t97382\t具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高啦\n97793\t120703\t副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人\n124215\t138500\t我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打面玩這樣子因為債務問題\n142081\t159686\t這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法啦就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的\n160973\t181833\t不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法\n184099\t212780\t我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益\n213400\t218506\t所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛\n231482\t252684\t不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎\n253843\t268444\t看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是\n269065\t288719\t既然我們剛剛看到您的報告嘛就是 如果會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步對 大概預計何時會提出行政院版本\n289600\t318656\t我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法\n319336\t345398\t國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是\n347304\t365950\t要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰\n366810\t393488\t還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流\n394068\t411755\t不是 他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說 我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區 還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能\n418579\t432414\t我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動\n433795\t448854\t或是說你加入什麼國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下\n449535\t467901\t我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準所以這樣的條文不是那麼適宜嗎\n471042\t485449\t會在未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國了嗎我想刑法的修訂會很慎重一定會符合明確性跟比例原則所以一定要慎重好嗎好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好 請副主委跟次長\n委員好副主委還有市長兩位好根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個\n民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人\n他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例\n具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高啦\n副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人\n我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打面玩這樣子因為債務問題\n這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法啦就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的\n不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法\n我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益\n所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛\n不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎\n看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是\n既然我們剛剛看到您的報告嘛就是 如果會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步對 大概預計何時會提出行政院版本\n我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法\n國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是\n要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰\n還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流\n不是 他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說 我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區 還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能\n我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動\n或是說你加入什麼國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下\n我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準所以這樣的條文不是那麼適宜嗎\n會在未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國了嗎我想刑法的修訂會很慎重一定會符合明確性跟比例原則所以一定要慎重好嗎好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.180 --> 00:07.146\n謝謝主席我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好請副主委跟次長\n\n00:10.888 --> 00:35.378\n委員好副主委還有市長兩位好根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個\n\n00:37.318 --> 00:52.976\n民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人\n\n00:58.061 --> 01:12.817\n他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例\n\n01:14.018 --> 01:37.382\n具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高啦\n\n01:37.793 --> 02:00.703\n副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人\n\n02:04.215 --> 02:18.500\n我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打面玩這樣子因為債務問題\n\n02:22.081 --> 02:39.686\n這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法啦就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的\n\n02:40.973 --> 03:01.833\n不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法\n\n03:04.099 --> 03:32.780\n我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益\n\n03:33.400 --> 03:38.506\n所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛\n\n03:51.482 --> 04:12.684\n不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎\n\n04:13.843 --> 04:28.444\n看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是\n\n04:29.065 --> 04:48.719\n既然我們剛剛看到您的報告嘛就是如果會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步對大概預計何時會提出行政院版本\n\n04:49.600 --> 05:18.656\n我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法\n\n05:19.336 --> 05:45.398\n國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是\n\n05:47.304 --> 06:05.950\n要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰\n\n06:06.810 --> 06:33.488\n還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流\n\n06:34.068 --> 06:51.755\n不是他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能\n\n06:58.579 --> 07:12.414\n我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動\n\n07:13.795 --> 07:28.854\n或是說你加入什麼國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下\n\n07:29.535 --> 07:47.901\n我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準所以這樣的條文不是那麼適宜嗎\n\n07:51.042 --> 08:05.449\n會在未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國了嗎我想刑法的修訂會很慎重一定會符合明確性跟比例原則所以一定要慎重好嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.18,"end":7.146,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好 請副主委跟次長"},{"start":10.888,"end":35.378,"text":"委員好副主委還有市長兩位好根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個"},{"start":37.318,"end":52.976,"text":"民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人"},{"start":58.061,"end":72.817,"text":"他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例"},{"start":74.018,"end":97.382,"text":"具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高啦"},{"start":97.793,"end":120.703,"text":"副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人"},{"start":124.215,"end":138.5,"text":"我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打面玩這樣子因為債務問題"},{"start":142.081,"end":159.686,"text":"這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法啦就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的"},{"start":160.973,"end":181.833,"text":"不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法"},{"start":184.099,"end":212.78,"text":"我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益"},{"start":213.4,"end":218.506,"text":"所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛"},{"start":231.482,"end":252.684,"text":"不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎"},{"start":253.843,"end":268.444,"text":"看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是"},{"start":269.065,"end":288.719,"text":"既然我們剛剛看到您的報告嘛就是 如果會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步對 大概預計何時會提出行政院版本"},{"start":289.6,"end":318.656,"text":"我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法"},{"start":319.336,"end":345.398,"text":"國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是"},{"start":347.304,"end":365.95,"text":"要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰"},{"start":366.81,"end":393.488,"text":"還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流"},{"start":394.068,"end":411.755,"text":"不是 他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說 我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區 還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能"},{"start":418.579,"end":432.414,"text":"我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動"},{"start":433.795,"end":448.854,"text":"或是說你加入什麼國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下"},{"start":449.535,"end":467.901,"text":"我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準所以這樣的條文不是那麼適宜嗎"},{"start":471.042,"end":485.449,"text":"會在未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國了嗎我想刑法的修訂會很慎重一定會符合明確性跟比例原則所以一定要慎重好嗎好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時37分）謝謝主席。我們請陸委會梁副主委及法務部黃世杰次長。"],["主席：請副主委及次長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好！"],["許委員宇甄：副主委、次長，兩位好！根據國家安全局在今年1月12日發布的共諜案滲透手法分析，你可以看到，我們這短短4年來成長了3倍。面對這麼嚴峻的滲透情勢，特別是民進黨內部被滲透得那麼厲害，包括總統府、立法院、國安會、外交部、民進黨黨部，在4月9日的民進黨中常會，賴清德總統為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透，而提出要研擬急難救助辦法。我想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎？同樣是因為經濟困難、債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人難道不值得國家提供急難救助嗎？在這邊我想請教一下梁副主委，有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸，陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢、經濟困難的族群比例？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：具體的數字，我們手上沒有，但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的，是為了蠅頭小利，特別是發生在志願役士兵的個案，他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩，這個金額其實都不高……"],["許委員宇甄：副主委，不過在4月9日的中常會也提到，事實上，民進黨黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高，賴清德總統認為經濟弱勢是滲透的破口，所以他要設立黨工的急難救助辦法。請問副主委，政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法，來因應因為債務問題、經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不太知道那個對黨工的部分，但是我剛剛向委員報告，我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面，他們就是因為欠了一些債，因為網路博弈或打電玩……"],["許委員宇甄：因為債務問題，剛剛梁副主委也承認是有這樣的問題，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得這個國防部要想一個辦法，就是要理解……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外，其實我們看到目前有被爆出來，甚至收押禁見交保的，幾乎都是民進黨的，不管是黨工，或者是在總統府、立法院、國安會、外交部曾經服務過的。針對這個部分，我剛剛提到，我們的賴清德總統，同時也是賴清德主席，提出其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法。你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助辦法？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得急難救助應該是對所有人，只要是弱勢，就應該要急難救助，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：對，如果以這樣的一個推論。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為，我覺得可能比較困難一點，因為……"],["許委員宇甄：不過這個是賴清德總統所提出的喔！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為很多做間諜的人可能還是商人……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是這個是賴清德總統所提出的喔！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：可能是商人，就是本身蠻有錢，但是他還要追求更大的利益，這種人也很多啦！"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以現在是民進黨的才可以有這樣子的待遇，一般人是不行嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是，因為我不太知道民進黨的措施是什麼，所以這個我沒辦法回答。"],["許委員宇甄：您可以去看一下，在4月9日的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的討論。我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話，應該要一視同仁，不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣的急難救助，甚至剛剛有提到，如果今天是臺商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸蒐集資料，陸委會會不會提供他急難救助，還是直接用反滲透法辦理？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：臺商通常不是因為經濟困難，而是想要謀求更大的利益。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣子陸委會會用反滲透法辦理嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：看他具體觸犯什麼。"],["許委員宇甄：我想司法的標準應該要一致，不可以對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待，對於國人就嚴刑峻法。","另外，想請教一下梁副主委，我們剛剛看到您的報告，既然陸委會這麼關心國家安全法的修法，可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本，沒有行政院版，請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在正在加緊腳步，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：大概預計何時會提出行政院版本？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我想會用最快的時間，因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門，所以由行政院負責統合，我沒有辦法幫行政院回答，但是會加快腳步。"],["許委員宇甄：因為如果沒有行政院版本的話，大家會認為是在打假球。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，也拜託委員，到時候如果行政院提案的話，可以讓它付委。"],["許委員宇甄：如果行政院提案是符合全民利益的話，如果行政院提案是……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那絕對、絕對。"],["許委員宇甄：請教一下兩位，就國安法第二條的規定，「任何人不得為外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織、機構、團體或其派遣之人為下列行為」，其中第一款的規定，這一次有委員提案要求增加「或為其組織、機構、團體之成員或參與其活動」，請問梁副主委，這個是要限制參與活動，也就是要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎？要取消兩岸雙城論壇嗎？要取消宗教交流、學術交流嗎？請問一下，針對這樣的意見，陸委會支持這樣的修法嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我快速回答一下，因為現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人……"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：還有參加活動，他現在要修正的是「參加活動」。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，因為加入組織，所以會參加活動，或是藉由參加活動來加入組織，所以對我們來說，加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰，因為過去很多案子都是只處罰……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在請教您的是這個修法針對要參與活動的，所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇？未來是不是要取消宗教交流？未來是不是要取消學術交流？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是，它一定要符合這個組織的概念，所以不會因為單純的活動。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，以這一條來說，我們可以看到是「任何人不得為外國」，不只大陸地區，還有外國，那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制，這樣臺灣會不會真的變成鎖國的狀態？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我想不太可能，在第二條的修正，以目前行政院各部門的態度來講，就是要把參與組織的加進去，如果只是單純的活動，或是加入國外的某一個……"],["許委員宇甄：可是這樣的法條限制的話，已經讓人家覺得，今天去參加一個宗教交流活動、一個學術交流活動就有可能違反國家安全法，這個部分是不是可以請次長回復一下？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們在今天的意見裡面都有很明確的說明，就是剛才梁副主委有提到，參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞，但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議，不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以這樣的條文你也認為不是那麼適宜嘛！"],["黃部長世杰：是，我們會在這個方向上再去……"],["許委員宇甄：這樣等於未來連外國我們都不能去參加文化交流，不能去學術交流，這樣的話我們臺灣不是變鎖國了嗎？"],["黃部長世杰：跟委員報告，我想刑法的修訂會很慎重，一定會符合明確性跟比例原則。"],["許委員宇甄：所以一定要慎重，好嗎？"],["黃部長世杰：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：丁學忠、丁學忠、丁學忠委員不在。","請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}