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00:00:58,748\n敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做\n\n3\n00:00:59,677 --> 00:01:27,072\n過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差\n\n4\n00:01:28,188 --> 00:01:53,598\n而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂所以嘛好其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係好我們一個一個來是\n\n5\n00:01:58,513 --> 00:02:19,391\n民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自\n\n6\n00:02:26,072 --> 00:02:52,818\n再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約\n\n7\n00:02:56,609 --> 00:03:23,946\n協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都郎國\n\n8\n00:03:26,533 --> 00:03:54,925\n就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候\n\n9\n00:03:56,582 --> 00:04:24,398\n從過去最近的這些案例我們原住民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋對我們原住民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼\n\n10\n00:04:25,658 --> 00:04:45,119\n所以這個部分這個都郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法\n\n11\n00:04:46,488 --> 00:05:12,105\n他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述\n\n12\n00:05:14,577 --> 00:05:40,989\n不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員台灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙逃漏稅等等那是後來所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反\n\n13\n00:05:42,346 --> 00:06:06,704\n這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去這個言論自由跟這個國安相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是謝謝但是我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的\n\n14\n00:06:08,414 --> 00:06:24,248\n觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的寫者去看你們的一個執行你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t28510\t主席 各位委員有請入委會主委好 請副主委委員好主委好今天國家安全法條文的修正當然都是立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面第二條任何人不得為外國 大陸地區 香港 澳門 境外勢力\n30099\t58748\t敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做\n59677\t87072\t過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差\n88188\t113598\t而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂所以嘛好其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係好我們一個一個來是\n118513\t139391\t民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自\n146072\t172818\t再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約\n176609\t203946\t協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都郎國\n206533\t234925\t就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候\n236582\t264398\t從過去最近的這些案例我們原住民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋對我們原住民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼\n265658\t285119\t所以這個部分這個都郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法\n286488\t312105\t他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述\n314577\t340989\t不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員 台灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙 逃漏稅等等那是後來所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是 它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反\n342346\t366704\t這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去這個言論自由跟這個國安相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是 謝謝但是我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的\n368414\t384248\t觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的寫者去看你們的一個執行你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好\n","txt":"主席 各位委員有請入委會主委好 請副主委委員好主委好今天國家安全法條文的修正當然都是立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面第二條任何人不得為外國 大陸地區 香港 澳門 境外勢力\n敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做\n過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差\n而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂所以嘛好其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係好我們一個一個來是\n民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自\n再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約\n協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都郎國\n就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候\n從過去最近的這些案例我們原住民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋對我們原住民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼\n所以這個部分這個都郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法\n他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述\n不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員 台灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙 逃漏稅等等那是後來所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是 它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反\n這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去這個言論自由跟這個國安相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是 謝謝但是我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的\n觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的寫者去看你們的一個執行你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:28.510\n主席各位委員有請入委會主委好請副主委委員好主委好今天國家安全法條文的修正當然都是立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面第二條任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外勢力\n\n00:30.099 --> 00:58.748\n敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做\n\n00:59.677 --> 01:27.072\n過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差\n\n01:28.188 --> 01:53.598\n而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂所以嘛好其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係好我們一個一個來是\n\n01:58.513 --> 02:19.391\n民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自\n\n02:26.072 --> 02:52.818\n再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約\n\n02:56.609 --> 03:23.946\n協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都郎國\n\n03:26.533 --> 03:54.925\n就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候\n\n03:56.582 --> 04:24.398\n從過去最近的這些案例我們原住民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋對我們原住民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼\n\n04:25.658 --> 04:45.119\n所以這個部分這個都郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法\n\n04:46.488 --> 05:12.105\n他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述\n\n05:14.577 --> 05:40.989\n不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員台灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙逃漏稅等等那是後來所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反\n\n05:42.346 --> 06:06.704\n這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去這個言論自由跟這個國安相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是謝謝但是我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的\n\n06:08.414 --> 06:24.248\n觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的寫者去看你們的一個執行你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":28.51,"text":"主席 各位委員有請入委會主委好 請副主委委員好主委好今天國家安全法條文的修正當然都是立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面第二條任何人不得為外國 大陸地區 香港 澳門 境外勢力"},{"start":30.099,"end":58.748,"text":"敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做"},{"start":59.677,"end":87.072,"text":"過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差"},{"start":88.188,"end":113.598,"text":"而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂所以嘛好其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係好我們一個一個來是"},{"start":118.513,"end":139.391,"text":"民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自"},{"start":146.072,"end":172.818,"text":"再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約"},{"start":176.609,"end":203.946,"text":"協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都郎國"},{"start":206.533,"end":234.925,"text":"就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候"},{"start":236.582,"end":264.398,"text":"從過去最近的這些案例我們原住民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋對我們原住民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼"},{"start":265.658,"end":285.119,"text":"所以這個部分這個都郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法"},{"start":286.488,"end":312.105,"text":"他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述"},{"start":314.577,"end":340.989,"text":"不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員 台灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙 逃漏稅等等那是後來所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是 它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反"},{"start":342.346,"end":366.704,"text":"這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去這個言論自由跟這個國安相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是 謝謝但是我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的"},{"start":368.414,"end":384.248,"text":"觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的寫者去看你們的一個執行你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時46分）主席、各位委員。有請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主委好。今天審查國家安全法的條文修正，當然都是立委的版本，沒有行政院的版本，這裡面第二條「任何人不得為外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織、機構、團體或其派遣之人進行下列行為」，所以國安法第二條及其他條文在過去怎麼樣去釐清這個分界，尤其是言論自由跟相關的這些，過去都分得很好。但是最近，尤其是在陸委會的掌控之下、解釋之下、執行之下，跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的落差，而且造成人民的恐懼。我今天特別提出，「都蘭國」這樣有沒有違反國安法？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不太懂。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以嘛！其他跟大陸有關的你就很懂，對我們都蘭國的成立，你就不太懂。沒關係，我們一個一個來。民國88年陳水扁總統跟我們原住民族簽了新夥伴關係的協定，按照相關的法律，協定就是條約，陳水扁總統當總統之後親自再肯認原來他在選舉之前簽的協定，重新再肯認，所以重新簽名，各族派代表重新簽名，陳水扁總統也有簽名，都有陳水扁總統的名字。所以對原住民族而言，這個就是原住民族跟中華民國的條約，協定就是條約的名稱，就是我們原住民族跟中華民國的條約。當然很可惜，在他任內沒有完成，而且他在發表文章的時候、參加會議的時候特別提到「國中有國」，所以都蘭國就這樣應運而生，不只是都蘭國，我們原住民族還有其他的。","在這樣一個情形之下，對原住民族而言，如果按照目前陸委會在執行國安法或是兩岸地區人民關係條例的相關作法，最近的這些案例也讓我們原住民族感到恐懼，你知道嗎？我們會感到恐懼，言論自由的分界越來越模糊，變成是陸委會在解釋、司法機關在解釋，對我們原住民族而言，真的是很恐懼。這個是都蘭國，所以這個部分真的要審慎！","因為時間的關係，我再談到最早一直存在的台灣民政府，台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法？不只是台灣民政府，還有很多在網路上一直傳的言論，有的說臺灣是屬於日本的領土，要成為日本的一個行政區域；也有很多說我們是美國的一個州，我們應該歸回美國，都有這樣的論述，不只是論述，是公開提出來的，所以……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，台灣民政府涉及到的有詐騙、逃漏稅等等……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那是後來。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以並沒有用國安法來處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，它是後來才有詐騙，所以就是你輕視了這個，這是兩個不同的，如果一個人詐騙，然後就說他違反……這個也是一個需要去思考的，所以怎麼樣釐清言論自由跟國安相關的，尤其是兩岸人民關係條例這個部分，還是要審慎！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，謝謝，我們陸委會的解釋一定是尊重言論自由，目前看來，民調顯示百分之七十的人大概都支持我們的作法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我從我學法律的觀點跟我當公務員三十年的觀點來看，包括很多的學者去看你們的執行、你們的論述，就不是，已經脫離了言論自由，以上。"],["主席：請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}