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\"start\": 467.839, \"end\": 467.979, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 467.979, \"end\": 467.999, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,569 --> 00:00:06,031\n本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官好請司法院委員好次長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們\n\n2\n00:00:19,878 --> 00:00:35,260\n所有国人都应该支持而且也是大家有共识的那我们今天国安法的部分修正草案我们要来审理所以我们当然希望把国安法把它修好\n\n3\n00:00:38,305 --> 00:00:52,979\n能够把国安法修好让人民有所依循也让执法单位能够知道怎么样执法所以本席在这里要先请教我们法务部跟司法院\n\n4\n00:00:54,756 --> 00:01:21,641\n本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:22,501 --> 00:01:34,511\n公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想\n\n6\n00:01:35,745 --> 00:02:00,063\n不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關的偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認當然所以每個刑罰的\n\n7\n00:02:02,345 --> 00:02:31,207\n這個範圍比如說的行為它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的順便意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案\n\n8\n00:02:31,806 --> 00:02:55,274\n也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員\n\n9\n00:02:56,455 --> 00:03:11,211\n好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在\n\n10\n00:03:11,952 --> 00:03:29,457\n看一个月还是两个月内可以提出针对这次的这些版本的完整的法律专业的评估意见包括各修法的版本和宪政体制以及司法审查标准的冲突与调和分析\n\n11\n00:03:30,638 --> 00:03:51,839\n以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月\n\n12\n00:03:52,395 --> 00:04:11,850\n委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要演繹那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久\n\n13\n00:04:12,829 --> 00:04:15,950\n法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性\n\n14\n00:04:29,734 --> 00:04:48,513\n可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程\n\n15\n00:04:49,353 --> 00:05:04,161\n我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧\n\n16\n00:05:05,682 --> 00:05:33,402\n目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜\n\n17\n00:05:34,042 --> 00:05:56,797\n所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是\n\n18\n00:05:59,591 --> 00:06:08,777\n因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來\n\n19\n00:06:10,799 --> 00:06:36,867\n对我们整个国安法的修法那我们也要兼顾我们的民主与人权所以国安跟民主人权的平衡点到底在哪里所以我们想要请教你们认为目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟广泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言论自由集会结社的自由以及资讯自主权的实质风险\n\n20\n00:06:38,862 --> 00:06:51,314\n而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估\n\n21\n00:06:53,130 --> 00:07:10,142\n跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的這個人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來\n\n22\n00:07:11,042 --> 00:07:29,927\n有這個要適用的話行政委員會指示好最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險簡單回答\n\n23\n00:07:34,423 --> 00:07:47,999\n報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n569\t6031\t本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官好請司法院委員好次長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們\n19878\t35260\t所有国人都应该支持而且也是大家有共识的那我们今天国安法的部分修正草案我们要来审理所以我们当然希望把国安法把它修好\n38305\t52979\t能够把国安法修好让人民有所依循也让执法单位能够知道怎么样执法所以本席在这里要先请教我们法务部跟司法院\n54756\t81641\t本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼\n82501\t94511\t公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想\n95745\t120063\t不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關的偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認當然所以每個刑罰的\n122345\t151207\t這個範圍比如說的行為它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的順便意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案\n151806\t175274\t也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員\n176455\t191211\t好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在\n191952\t209457\t看一个月还是两个月内可以提出针对这次的这些版本的完整的法律专业的评估意见包括各修法的版本和宪政体制以及司法审查标准的冲突与调和分析\n210638\t231839\t以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月\n232395\t251850\t委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要演繹那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久\n252829\t255950\t法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性\n269734\t288513\t可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程\n289353\t304161\t我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧\n305682\t333402\t目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜\n334042\t356797\t所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是\n359591\t368777\t因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來\n370799\t396867\t对 我们整个国安法的修法那我们也要兼顾我们的民主与人权所以国安跟民主人权的平衡点到底在哪里所以我们想要请教你们认为目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟广泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言论自由集会结社的自由以及资讯自主权的实质风险\n398862\t411314\t而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估\n413130\t430142\t跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的這個人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來\n431042\t449927\t有這個要適用的話 行政委員會指示好最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險簡單回答\n454423\t467999\t報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位\n","txt":"本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官好請司法院委員好次長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們\n所有国人都应该支持而且也是大家有共识的那我们今天国安法的部分修正草案我们要来审理所以我们当然希望把国安法把它修好\n能够把国安法修好让人民有所依循也让执法单位能够知道怎么样执法所以本席在这里要先请教我们法务部跟司法院\n本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼\n公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想\n不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關的偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認當然所以每個刑罰的\n這個範圍比如說的行為它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的順便意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案\n也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員\n好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在\n看一个月还是两个月内可以提出针对这次的这些版本的完整的法律专业的评估意见包括各修法的版本和宪政体制以及司法审查标准的冲突与调和分析\n以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月\n委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要演繹那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久\n法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性\n可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程\n我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧\n目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜\n所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是\n因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來\n对 我们整个国安法的修法那我们也要兼顾我们的民主与人权所以国安跟民主人权的平衡点到底在哪里所以我们想要请教你们认为目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟广泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言论自由集会结社的自由以及资讯自主权的实质风险\n而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估\n跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的這個人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來\n有這個要適用的話 行政委員會指示好最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險簡單回答\n報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.569 --> 00:06.031\n本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官好請司法院委員好次長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們\n\n00:19.878 --> 00:35.260\n所有国人都应该支持而且也是大家有共识的那我们今天国安法的部分修正草案我们要来审理所以我们当然希望把国安法把它修好\n\n00:38.305 --> 00:52.979\n能够把国安法修好让人民有所依循也让执法单位能够知道怎么样执法所以本席在这里要先请教我们法务部跟司法院\n\n00:54.756 --> 01:21.641\n本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼\n\n01:22.501 --> 01:34.511\n公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想\n\n01:35.745 --> 02:00.063\n不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關的偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認當然所以每個刑罰的\n\n02:02.345 --> 02:31.207\n這個範圍比如說的行為它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的順便意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案\n\n02:31.806 --> 02:55.274\n也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員\n\n02:56.455 --> 03:11.211\n好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在\n\n03:11.952 --> 03:29.457\n看一个月还是两个月内可以提出针对这次的这些版本的完整的法律专业的评估意见包括各修法的版本和宪政体制以及司法审查标准的冲突与调和分析\n\n03:30.638 --> 03:51.839\n以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月\n\n03:52.395 --> 04:11.850\n委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要演繹那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久\n\n04:12.829 --> 04:15.950\n法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性\n\n04:29.734 --> 04:48.513\n可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程\n\n04:49.353 --> 05:04.161\n我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧\n\n05:05.682 --> 05:33.402\n目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜\n\n05:34.042 --> 05:56.797\n所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是\n\n05:59.591 --> 06:08.777\n因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來\n\n06:10.799 --> 06:36.867\n对我们整个国安法的修法那我们也要兼顾我们的民主与人权所以国安跟民主人权的平衡点到底在哪里所以我们想要请教你们认为目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟广泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言论自由集会结社的自由以及资讯自主权的实质风险\n\n06:38.862 --> 06:51.314\n而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估\n\n06:53.130 --> 07:10.142\n跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的這個人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來\n\n07:11.042 --> 07:29.927\n有這個要適用的話行政委員會指示好最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險簡單回答\n\n07:34.423 --> 07:47.999\n報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.569,"end":6.031,"text":"本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官好請司法院委員好次長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們"},{"start":19.878,"end":35.26,"text":"所有国人都应该支持而且也是大家有共识的那我们今天国安法的部分修正草案我们要来审理所以我们当然希望把国安法把它修好"},{"start":38.305,"end":52.979,"text":"能够把国安法修好让人民有所依循也让执法单位能够知道怎么样执法所以本席在这里要先请教我们法务部跟司法院"},{"start":54.756,"end":81.641,"text":"本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼"},{"start":82.501,"end":94.511,"text":"公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想"},{"start":95.745,"end":120.063,"text":"不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關的偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認當然所以每個刑罰的"},{"start":122.345,"end":151.207,"text":"這個範圍比如說的行為它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的順便意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案"},{"start":151.806,"end":175.274,"text":"也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員"},{"start":176.455,"end":191.211,"text":"好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在"},{"start":191.952,"end":209.457,"text":"看一个月还是两个月内可以提出针对这次的这些版本的完整的法律专业的评估意见包括各修法的版本和宪政体制以及司法审查标准的冲突与调和分析"},{"start":210.638,"end":231.839,"text":"以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月"},{"start":232.395,"end":251.85,"text":"委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要演繹那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久"},{"start":252.829,"end":255.95,"text":"法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性"},{"start":269.734,"end":288.513,"text":"可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程"},{"start":289.353,"end":304.161,"text":"我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧"},{"start":305.682,"end":333.402,"text":"目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜"},{"start":334.042,"end":356.797,"text":"所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是"},{"start":359.591,"end":368.777,"text":"因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來"},{"start":370.799,"end":396.867,"text":"对 我们整个国安法的修法那我们也要兼顾我们的民主与人权所以国安跟民主人权的平衡点到底在哪里所以我们想要请教你们认为目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟广泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言论自由集会结社的自由以及资讯自主权的实质风险"},{"start":398.862,"end":411.314,"text":"而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估"},{"start":413.13,"end":430.142,"text":"跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的這個人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來"},{"start":431.042,"end":449.927,"text":"有這個要適用的話 行政委員會指示好最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險簡單回答"},{"start":454.423,"end":467.999,"text":"報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時52分）謝謝主席，本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官。"],["主席：請黃次長、請司法院。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好，還有吳法官好。我想保障國家安全應該是我們所有國人都支持，而且也是大家有共識的。我們今天要審查國安法的部分條文修正草案，我們當然希望把國安法修好，讓人民有所依循，也讓執法單位知道怎麼樣執法。所以本席在這裡要先請教法務部跟司法院，本席有看到法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確指出這一次修法的草案內容有一些文字是不是過於含糊、過於籠統，首先本席想請教，有關涉及國家安全，它具體的判斷標準是什麼？公共利益的範圍又要如何界定？由誰來界定？本席分別請法務部跟司法院提出你們簡要的見解。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為今天所提出來很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰，所以刑罰的部分當然會由檢察機關指揮司法警察機關來偵辦，最後如果起訴的話，會由法院來審理，所以具體構成要件的判斷，會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認。關於每個刑罰的範圍，比方說行為，它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則，這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎思考的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以構成要件要非常明確，您認同吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是，這也是我們書面意見指出的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那請吳法官。"],["吳法官元曜：報告委員，正如委員所說的，構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑罰原則，所以在本院今天的報告裡面，譬如對於委員陳冠廷等21人的提案也特別提到，如果修正成「涉及國家安全或公共利益」，這個部分涵義似非明確，因此我們建請釐清；又例如對於委員王定宇等16人所提的草案，本院也特別提到草案第七條第四項有些記載比較簡略的部分是不是應該要加以敘明，我們也有特別指摘，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。所以兩個單位都有這樣的具體意見，那在我們正式逐條討論修法之前，本席想請教司法院是不是可以在1個月還是2個月內針對這次的這一些版本提出完整的法律專業評估意見，包括各修法的版本和憲政體制、司法審查標準的衝突與調和分析，以及具體的修法建議，請司法院看看1個月或2個月內，可以嗎？針對我們這個提出比較……因為你們這一次報告都簡單幾頁嘛，但是我們給更長的時間，針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議，2個月可以嗎？還是1個月？"],["吳法官元曜：委員的意思就是，除了今天本院的報告之外，另外再做更……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是針對今天修法的內容。"],["吳法官元曜：更具體的？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，更具體的，可以嗎？"],["吳法官元曜：2個月嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們看看1個月還2個月，可以嗎？"],["吳法官元曜：如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要研議，可否比較長的時間？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以！那大概多久？2個月可以？"],["吳法官元曜：委員剛剛講最長是2個月嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：2個月可以嘛？"],["吳法官元曜：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。那法務部是不是也可以在2個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估，具體的檢討條文明確性、可執行性……"],["黃次長世杰：委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先講完，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：以及刑度的適當性，並且對於偵查與起訴可能產生的執法爭議提出具體的建議，針對這次的法條修正法草案。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，剛才在討論的過程跟我們的口頭報告裡面都已經有報告，針對這裡面的部分條文，目前行政院已經在盤點當中，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您的意思是會有行政院版，是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：我們將來會有行政院版本，對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好！行政院版應該會更久吧，因為要很審慎嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：目前還沒有具體的期程，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：明確的期程？"],["黃次長世杰：我們已經都在進行中，會加速來辦理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以行政院整合的時候都有你們的意見？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那沒問題，我們希望有行政院版。"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後本席還是想要請教，請問兩個單位，我們至今尚未指定國安法的主管機關，那到底誰有權指導、釋疑？主管機關是行政院嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，過去的慣例是由行政院，因為底下的條文其實分別由不同的部會負責，包含本部、內政部跟國防部，所以我們作為行政院的幕僚單位……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以行政院統合嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：對，由行政院來統合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以負責的人是行政院長？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，因為本席看到修正案裡面很多寫到主管機關要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，所以這部分我們還是要確立主管機關。"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，整個國安法的修法也要兼顧我們的民主與人權，究竟國安跟民主、人權的平衡點到底在哪裡？所以我想要請教，你們認為目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟廣泛性是不是存在侵害人民言論自由、集會結社自由以及資訊自主權的實質風險？而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制，對不對？所以是否能夠進行影響評估？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，人權影響評估機制在院的人權小組裡面，事實上是今年年初才核定，之前都是在試辦，所以目前行政院正在頒行當中，假設本法案未來要適用的話，行政院也會指示。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，請吳法官就剛剛本席所說的，你們看到這次的修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性、廣泛性存在侵害人民的言論自由、集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險，簡單回答。"],["吳法官元曜：報告委員，今天本院就構成要件明確性等等部分做的一些建議，或者是提出意見，那是不是會產生這樣的後續情況，可能還要看個案來認定，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}