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0.999}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 101.5, \"end\": 101.52, \"score\": 0.247}]}, {\"start\": 102.569, \"end\": 129.227, \"text\": \"跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 102.569, \"end\": 102.689, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 102.689, \"end\": 103.049, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 103.049, \"end\": 103.31, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 103.31, \"end\": 103.45, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 103.45, \"end\": 103.79, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 103.79, \"end\": 104.05, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 104.05, \"end\": 104.27, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 104.27, \"end\": 104.45, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 104.45, \"end\": 104.611, \"score\": 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\"都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 130.188, \"end\": 130.388, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 130.388, \"end\": 130.888, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 130.888, \"end\": 131.008, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 131.008, \"end\": 131.308, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 131.308, \"end\": 131.548, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 131.548, \"end\": 131.909, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 131.909, \"end\": 132.069, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 132.069, \"end\": 132.229, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 132.229, \"end\": 132.369, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 132.369, \"end\": 132.529, 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0.925}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 448.652, \"end\": 448.793, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 448.793, \"end\": 448.913, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 448.913, \"end\": 449.013, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 449.013, \"end\": 449.113, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 449.113, \"end\": 449.133, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 449.133, \"end\": 449.153, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,701 --> 00:00:23,281\n法務部次長有請請次長好請台委員好次長早安好這個今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的這個國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法\n\n2\n00:00:24,061 --> 00:00:49,746\n討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這些東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論那我舉一個援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞\n\n3\n00:00:50,586 --> 00:01:14,509\n行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要怎麼樣的手段可以明確的\n\n4\n00:01:15,149 --> 00:01:41,520\n解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向\n\n5\n00:01:42,569 --> 00:02:09,227\n跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關\n\n6\n00:02:10,188 --> 00:02:38,297\n都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方\n\n7\n00:02:40,106 --> 00:02:59,574\n所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在昨啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來幾乎每一條其實都有在考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候\n\n8\n00:03:01,395 --> 00:03:20,827\n目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能汽車的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望\n\n9\n00:03:22,028 --> 00:03:51,138\n好自然我希望喔這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這條這個是試射到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個\n\n10\n00:03:51,638 --> 00:04:09,706\n意見可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法\n\n11\n00:04:09,906 --> 00:04:34,587\n是我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好謝謝次長次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委\n\n12\n00:04:39,660 --> 00:04:45,574\n我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對\n\n13\n00:04:47,175 --> 00:05:09,404\n因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢\n\n14\n00:05:12,208 --> 00:05:26,802\n我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個\n\n15\n00:05:29,304 --> 00:05:55,219\n賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是機制部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講啦那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員的版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔\n\n16\n00:05:56,139 --> 00:06:12,698\n這樣子你會支持嗎?我舉一個最明顯的例子啦這我們的媽祖廟,對不對?每週媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間,就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動?\n\n17\n00:06:16,563 --> 00:06:30,748\n那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊\n\n18\n00:06:31,508 --> 00:06:59,314\n那這樣子變成媽祖梅州梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我先只舉其中一個例子我講這個修法他除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很有很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊\n\n19\n00:07:00,834 --> 00:07:22,082\n不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線劃錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啊\n\n20\n00:07:22,922 --> 00:07:29,153\n對不對這條線要怎麼畫針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本席給你的建議好嗎好謝謝副主委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n701\t23281\t法務部 次長有請請次長好 請台委員好次長早安好這個今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的這個國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法\n24061\t49746\t討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這些東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論那我舉一個援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞\n50586\t74509\t行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要怎麼樣的手段可以明確的\n75149\t101520\t解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向\n102569\t129227\t跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關\n130188\t158297\t都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方\n160106\t179574\t所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在昨啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來幾乎每一條其實都有在考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候\n181395\t200827\t目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能汽車的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望\n202028\t231138\t好 自然我希望喔 這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望 因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這條 這個是試射到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個\n231638\t249706\t意見可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法\n249906\t274587\t是我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好 謝謝次長 次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委\n279660\t285574\t我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對\n287175\t309404\t因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢\n312208\t326802\t我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個\n329304\t355219\t賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是機制部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講啦那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員的版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔\n356139\t372698\t這樣子你會支持嗎?我舉一個最明顯的例子啦這我們的媽祖廟,對不對?每週媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間,就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動?\n376563\t390748\t那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊\n391508\t419314\t那這樣子變成媽祖梅州梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我先只舉其中一個例子我講這個修法他除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很有很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊\n420834\t442082\t不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線劃錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啊\n442922\t449153\t對不對這條線要怎麼畫針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本席給你的建議好嗎好謝謝副主委\n","txt":"法務部 次長有請請次長好 請台委員好次長早安好這個今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的這個國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法\n討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這些東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論那我舉一個援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞\n行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要怎麼樣的手段可以明確的\n解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向\n跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關\n都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方\n所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在昨啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來幾乎每一條其實都有在考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候\n目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能汽車的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望\n好 自然我希望喔 這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望 因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這條 這個是試射到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個\n意見可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法\n是我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好 謝謝次長 次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委\n我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對\n因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢\n我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個\n賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是機制部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講啦那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員的版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔\n這樣子你會支持嗎?我舉一個最明顯的例子啦這我們的媽祖廟,對不對?每週媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間,就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動?\n那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊\n那這樣子變成媽祖梅州梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我先只舉其中一個例子我講這個修法他除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很有很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊\n不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線劃錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啊\n對不對這條線要怎麼畫針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本席給你的建議好嗎好謝謝副主委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.701 --> 00:23.281\n法務部次長有請請次長好請台委員好次長早安好這個今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的這個國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法\n\n00:24.061 --> 00:49.746\n討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這些東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論那我舉一個援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞\n\n00:50.586 --> 01:14.509\n行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要怎麼樣的手段可以明確的\n\n01:15.149 --> 01:41.520\n解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向\n\n01:42.569 --> 02:09.227\n跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關\n\n02:10.188 --> 02:38.297\n都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方\n\n02:40.106 --> 02:59.574\n所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在昨啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來幾乎每一條其實都有在考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候\n\n03:01.395 --> 03:20.827\n目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能汽車的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望\n\n03:22.028 --> 03:51.138\n好自然我希望喔這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這條這個是試射到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個\n\n03:51.638 --> 04:09.706\n意見可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法\n\n04:09.906 --> 04:34.587\n是我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好謝謝次長次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委\n\n04:39.660 --> 04:45.574\n我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對\n\n04:47.175 --> 05:09.404\n因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢\n\n05:12.208 --> 05:26.802\n我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個\n\n05:29.304 --> 05:55.219\n賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是機制部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講啦那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員的版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔\n\n05:56.139 --> 06:12.698\n這樣子你會支持嗎?我舉一個最明顯的例子啦這我們的媽祖廟,對不對?每週媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間,就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動?\n\n06:16.563 --> 06:30.748\n那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊\n\n06:31.508 --> 06:59.314\n那這樣子變成媽祖梅州梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我先只舉其中一個例子我講這個修法他除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很有很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊\n\n07:00.834 --> 07:22.082\n不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線劃錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啊\n\n07:22.922 --> 07:29.153\n對不對這條線要怎麼畫針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本席給你的建議好嗎好謝謝副主委\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.701,"end":23.281,"text":"法務部 次長有請請次長好 請台委員好次長早安好這個今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的這個國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法"},{"start":24.061,"end":49.746,"text":"討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這些東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論那我舉一個援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞"},{"start":50.586,"end":74.509,"text":"行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要怎麼樣的手段可以明確的"},{"start":75.149,"end":101.52,"text":"解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向"},{"start":102.569,"end":129.227,"text":"跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關"},{"start":130.188,"end":158.297,"text":"都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方"},{"start":160.106,"end":179.574,"text":"所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在昨啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來幾乎每一條其實都有在考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":181.395,"end":200.827,"text":"目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能汽車的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望"},{"start":202.028,"end":231.138,"text":"好 自然我希望喔 這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望 因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這條 這個是試射到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個"},{"start":231.638,"end":249.706,"text":"意見可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法"},{"start":249.906,"end":274.587,"text":"是我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好 謝謝次長 次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委"},{"start":279.66,"end":285.574,"text":"我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對"},{"start":287.175,"end":309.404,"text":"因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢"},{"start":312.208,"end":326.802,"text":"我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個"},{"start":329.304,"end":355.219,"text":"賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是機制部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講啦那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員的版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔"},{"start":356.139,"end":372.698,"text":"這樣子你會支持嗎?我舉一個最明顯的例子啦這我們的媽祖廟,對不對?每週媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間,就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動?"},{"start":376.563,"end":390.748,"text":"那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊"},{"start":391.508,"end":419.314,"text":"那這樣子變成媽祖梅州梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我先只舉其中一個例子我講這個修法他除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很有很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊"},{"start":420.834,"end":442.082,"text":"不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線劃錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啊"},{"start":442.922,"end":449.153,"text":"對不對這條線要怎麼畫針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本席給你的建議好嗎好謝謝副主委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我們法務部次長有請。"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃次長世杰：好，委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長早安。"],["黃次長世杰：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的國家安全法的修正草案，當然我們沒有什麼好因為政治的立場，大家就為反對而反對，我覺得這是沒有必要的，但是我覺得在立法討論的過程之中要力求周延，也就是說這些法律的原則性，這個東西要把控清楚，內容上要做充分的討論。","我援引一個臺大法學院的教授，也是現在我們的政務委員林明昕先生，他2023年12月寫文章投稿，在《國家安全與行政管制》一文中就有提到：管制的具體目的何在，為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞，行政管制不應該徒言維護公共秩序，甚至口號式地宣稱國家安全考慮，而必須非常具體地指出問題在哪裡，然後才會有管制的手段。我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常清楚，他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向，第一叫積極的面向，也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯，我要管制哪些是要非常明確的，我要用什麼樣的手段可以明確地解決這樣子的問題，要有明確性的關聯；第二，要符合消極面向，所謂的消極面向也就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則，包含層級化法律保留原則、法律明確性原則、平等原則、比例原則、信賴保護原則等等。本席並不是法律專家，但次長你是，我想請教一下，以你目前看這些委員的提案版本，他們有沒有符合林明昕政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這一次委員所提出來，特別是關於刑罰的部分，針對它的比例原則、構成要件的明確性跟它的目的關係，我們都有做相關的論述。我想我們的原則就是，因為在賴總統宣示之後，行政院也已經啟動國安相關法令，各級主管機關都要全面來檢視，所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中。就今天所討論的國安法，特別是就發展組織之外，將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來，以及關於退撫的部分，這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中，所以我們今天的意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考，我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以，您的意思是說……我有看到你的報告，大部分的結論都是建請再酌，也就是說大家再商量一下。"],["黃次長世杰：因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講，我們就把有問題的部分寫出來……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以幾乎每一條都有再考量的空間，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：大部分都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我剛剛聽其他委員的時候，我大概也知道說可能會有院版，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問次長，對於院版，你們抓的時間點是什麼時候？"],["黃次長世杰：目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合、協調、配套的部分，所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中。我們現在在進行的期程部分會不會再拆分？或是說會再提出幾個……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的院版出來嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我們會儘快，希望、希望。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，次長，我們也許等院版出來，有一個好的母體之後……本席也是非常非常希望，因為這茲事體大。我今天跟您討論的是法理上面，法理上面你比較專業，我希望有很多法學專家的意見，因為這個是事涉到政府管制權限的問題，今天如果要修國安法，以國安為由，然後讓政府有擴大的權力，到底那條紅線要畫在哪裡？怎麼樣才是最適切的？我想這是社會大眾共同關心的，這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見，我們希望有法學的專家、很多學界的意見，可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理。沒關係，既然今天法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要建請再酌、要再商量，未來也會有所謂的院版，那我們就希望院版趕快草擬出來，草擬出來之後，我們希望有一個公聽會的形式，讓這個修法的過程更加完備，次長是否同意這樣的作法？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我想我們在研擬的過程中也會跟相關各部會、學者專家來做研析、討論，當然提出這個版本之後，相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通，如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後，立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝次長，次長請回，我們請梁副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我看陸委會的報告跟法務部的不太一樣，陸委會好像都還滿支持的，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，因為從陸委會的立場來說，現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大，然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦，就是辦了也判不成。"],["牛委員煦庭：它其實有執行率低落的問題，本席也有了解。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以對我們來講，我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是加強任何國安法制的時候，有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得目前是這樣，就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去，其他委員還提出了一個，譬如說受中共指示刊登或是散布圖書、文字、影像、消息，賴瑞隆委員有提出來這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是機密的部分嘛。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講，一定是在防守範圍之內，我現在問的是，比如說王定宇委員的版本，他說，除了發起、資助、主持、操縱、指揮或發展組織；或為其組織、機構、團體之成員或參與其活動。他的這個主體是講說所謂的境外敵對勢力，就是包含大陸地區。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以換言之，你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍、要入罪，這樣子你會支持嗎？我舉一個最明顯的例子，像我們的媽祖廟，湄洲媽祖分靈，難免會舉辦宮廟之間像媽祖回娘家，然後大家就去進香，請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力之組織、機構的活動？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那我們要先判斷這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織，或是受中共指使的組織。"],["牛委員煦庭：人家對手是獨裁政權、極權政權，哪一個組織不受他操控，對不對？過去大家的判斷本來就是這樣。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子變成大家參與湄洲媽祖分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象，這樣子會不會有點過頭？我今天只是舉其中一個例子，我講這個修法除了法理上，剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外，另外，這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活，比如說玩手遊、參加活動，甚至參加1111光棍節、團購、跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動？有很多可以討論的地方，所以我希望陸委會這邊，你顧慮這個漏洞我理解，但你不要因為這樣子，那條線畫錯位置，反而造成擾民的問題，這個我要提醒。所以本席還是再次強調，這個法律要修正，沒有問題，國民黨也不會為反而反，但關鍵是法律過程要周延，除了法界的意見之外，公聽會的內容也應該酌參，包含各式各樣的，你是主管兩岸交流的機關對不對？這條線要怎麼畫？針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼處理也要納入考量的範圍，這是本席給你的建議，好嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝副主委。"],["主席：鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}