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\"雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"城\", \"start\": 397.802, \"end\": 397.822, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"壇\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 397.822, \"end\": 397.922, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 397.922, \"end\": 397.942, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 397.942, \"end\": 397.962, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 397.962, \"end\": 397.982, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 397.982, \"end\": 398.002, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 398.002, \"end\": 398.022, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"城\", \"start\": 398.022, \"end\": 398.142, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"壇\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 398.142, \"end\": 398.202, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 402.766, \"end\": 403.026, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 403.026, \"end\": 403.046, \"score\": 0.902}]}, {\"start\": 425.93, \"end\": 448.496, \"text\": \"並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 425.93, \"end\": 426.41, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 426.41, \"end\": 426.79, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 426.79, \"end\": 427.531, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 427.531, \"end\": 427.811, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 427.811, \"end\": 427.991, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 427.991, \"end\": 428.211, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 428.211, \"end\": 429.131, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"織\"}, 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493.074, \"end\": 493.574, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 493.574, \"end\": 493.854, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 493.854, \"end\": 494.054, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 494.054, \"end\": 494.214, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 494.214, \"end\": 494.374, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 494.374, \"end\": 494.394, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,589 --> 00:00:23,655\n謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部\n\n2\n00:00:28,645 --> 00:00:41,465\n來各位部會首長那麼因為這次的國安法的修正零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在各版本來看到的那麼我們做了一下了解\n\n3\n00:00:42,947 --> 00:01:01,112\n未來恐怕包含下載向大陸的手遊或者是參加這個什麼淘寶啊或者他們網站的一些雙11的活動還有呢未來和大陸的這個只要跟他們的官方有關的活動甚至包含比如我們台北市的雙城論壇或者是啊你所謂針對不特定人來發展組織啊\n\n4\n00:01:07,874 --> 00:01:30,593\n就是他等于说有交付再交付那比如说这位这个盛楚英这位助理已经涉及了他涉嫌供迭那只要有跟他有所接触的都有可能违反相关的这个国安法如果按照现在的各个版本可以算是一个包山包海\n\n5\n00:01:31,414 --> 00:01:58,434\n然后对非常多的社团对非常多的个人可能他不小心他就触法而且违反的是相关的国安法那我想请教一下那么但是我们这样一个包山包海的国安法那请问一下我们的主管机关到底是哪一个主管机关我想请问一下陆委会我们是国安法的主管机关吗\n\n6\n00:01:59,933 --> 00:02:18,999\n報告委員陸委會不是主管機關這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院是行政院所以目前如果相關的就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的是包含原來我們所查到資料法務部是嘛對不對\n\n7\n00:02:20,018 --> 00:02:30,467\n跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說\n\n8\n00:02:36,111 --> 00:02:54,513\n這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密\n\n9\n00:02:55,754 --> 00:03:21,680\n那所以我想请问一下如果说法务部能不能告诉我那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法务部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有受发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足\n\n10\n00:03:22,300 --> 00:03:45,585\n這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌\n\n11\n00:03:46,735 --> 00:04:07,188\n好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢\n\n12\n00:04:08,098 --> 00:04:26,976\n跟委員報告因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中\n\n13\n00:04:27,557 --> 00:04:55,936\n目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的那個機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候\n\n14\n00:04:57,117 --> 00:05:09,853\n會我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會\n\n15\n00:05:10,885 --> 00:05:32,541\n就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎\n\n16\n00:05:34,898 --> 00:06:03,462\n我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他\n\n17\n00:06:04,718 --> 00:06:06,625\n因為他只是參與他不是發起人\n\n18\n00:06:07,694 --> 00:06:16,916\n最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動要堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇\n\n19\n00:06:37,802 --> 00:06:43,046\n雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了\n\n20\n00:07:05,930 --> 00:07:28,496\n並不會啦因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係所以我要確定一件事情\n\n21\n00:07:29,176 --> 00:07:53,386\n就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分\n\n22\n00:07:53,846 --> 00:08:14,394\n那因為國安法是刑法的問題所以它其實老實講它的運用範圍是比較窄所以它應該更加嚴謹對不對它應該更加的嚴謹因為它確實刑法的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這一點是應該是最高的指導原則是我也放心不會謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n589\t23655\t謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部\n28645\t41465\t來 各位部會首長那麼因為這次的國安法的修正零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在各版本來看到的那麼我們做了一下了解\n42947\t61112\t未來恐怕包含下載向大陸的手遊或者是參加這個什麼淘寶啊或者他們網站的一些雙11的活動還有呢未來和大陸的這個只要跟他們的官方有關的活動甚至包含比如我們台北市的雙城論壇或者是啊你所謂針對不特定人來發展組織啊\n67874\t90593\t就是他等于说有交付再交付那比如说这位这个盛楚英这位助理已经涉及了他涉嫌供迭那只要有跟他有所接触的都有可能违反相关的这个国安法如果按照现在的各个版本可以算是一个包山包海\n91414\t118434\t然后对非常多的社团对非常多的个人可能他不小心他就触法而且违反的是相关的国安法那我想请教一下那么但是我们这样一个包山包海的国安法那请问一下我们的主管机关到底是哪一个主管机关我想请问一下陆委会我们是国安法的主管机关吗\n119933\t138999\t報告委員 陸委會不是主管機關 這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院 是行政院所以目前如果相關的 就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的是包含原來我們所查到資料 法務部是嘛 對不對\n140018\t150467\t跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說\n156111\t174513\t這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密\n175754\t201680\t那所以我想请问一下如果说法务部能不能告诉我那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法务部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有受发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足\n202300\t225585\t這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌\n226735\t247188\t好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢\n248098\t266976\t跟委員報告因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中\n267557\t295936\t目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的那個機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候\n297117\t309853\t會 我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會\n310885\t332541\t就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎\n334898\t363462\t我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他\n364718\t366625\t因為他只是參與 他不是發起人\n367694\t376916\t最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動要堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇\n397802\t403046\t雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了\n425930\t448496\t並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情\n449176\t473386\t就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分\n473846\t494394\t那因為國安法是刑法的問題所以它其實老實講它的運用範圍是比較窄所以它應該更加嚴謹對不對它應該更加的嚴謹因為它確實刑法的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這一點是應該是最高的指導原則是 我也放心不會謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部\n來 各位部會首長那麼因為這次的國安法的修正零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在各版本來看到的那麼我們做了一下了解\n未來恐怕包含下載向大陸的手遊或者是參加這個什麼淘寶啊或者他們網站的一些雙11的活動還有呢未來和大陸的這個只要跟他們的官方有關的活動甚至包含比如我們台北市的雙城論壇或者是啊你所謂針對不特定人來發展組織啊\n就是他等于说有交付再交付那比如说这位这个盛楚英这位助理已经涉及了他涉嫌供迭那只要有跟他有所接触的都有可能违反相关的这个国安法如果按照现在的各个版本可以算是一个包山包海\n然后对非常多的社团对非常多的个人可能他不小心他就触法而且违反的是相关的国安法那我想请教一下那么但是我们这样一个包山包海的国安法那请问一下我们的主管机关到底是哪一个主管机关我想请问一下陆委会我们是国安法的主管机关吗\n報告委員 陸委會不是主管機關 這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院 是行政院所以目前如果相關的 就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的是包含原來我們所查到資料 法務部是嘛 對不對\n跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說\n這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密\n那所以我想请问一下如果说法务部能不能告诉我那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法务部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有受发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足\n這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌\n好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢\n跟委員報告因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中\n目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的那個機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候\n會 我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會\n就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎\n我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他\n因為他只是參與 他不是發起人\n最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動要堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇\n雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了\n並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情\n就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分\n那因為國安法是刑法的問題所以它其實老實講它的運用範圍是比較窄所以它應該更加嚴謹對不對它應該更加的嚴謹因為它確實刑法的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這一點是應該是最高的指導原則是 我也放心不會謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.589 --> 00:23.655\n謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部\n\n00:28.645 --> 00:41.465\n來各位部會首長那麼因為這次的國安法的修正零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在各版本來看到的那麼我們做了一下了解\n\n00:42.947 --> 01:01.112\n未來恐怕包含下載向大陸的手遊或者是參加這個什麼淘寶啊或者他們網站的一些雙11的活動還有呢未來和大陸的這個只要跟他們的官方有關的活動甚至包含比如我們台北市的雙城論壇或者是啊你所謂針對不特定人來發展組織啊\n\n01:07.874 --> 01:30.593\n就是他等于说有交付再交付那比如说这位这个盛楚英这位助理已经涉及了他涉嫌供迭那只要有跟他有所接触的都有可能违反相关的这个国安法如果按照现在的各个版本可以算是一个包山包海\n\n01:31.414 --> 01:58.434\n然后对非常多的社团对非常多的个人可能他不小心他就触法而且违反的是相关的国安法那我想请教一下那么但是我们这样一个包山包海的国安法那请问一下我们的主管机关到底是哪一个主管机关我想请问一下陆委会我们是国安法的主管机关吗\n\n01:59.933 --> 02:18.999\n報告委員陸委會不是主管機關這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院是行政院所以目前如果相關的就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的是包含原來我們所查到資料法務部是嘛對不對\n\n02:20.018 --> 02:30.467\n跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說\n\n02:36.111 --> 02:54.513\n這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密\n\n02:55.754 --> 03:21.680\n那所以我想请问一下如果说法务部能不能告诉我那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法务部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有受发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足\n\n03:22.300 --> 03:45.585\n這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌\n\n03:46.735 --> 04:07.188\n好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢\n\n04:08.098 --> 04:26.976\n跟委員報告因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中\n\n04:27.557 --> 04:55.936\n目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的那個機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候\n\n04:57.117 --> 05:09.853\n會我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會\n\n05:10.885 --> 05:32.541\n就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎\n\n05:34.898 --> 06:03.462\n我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他\n\n06:04.718 --> 06:06.625\n因為他只是參與他不是發起人\n\n06:07.694 --> 06:16.916\n最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動要堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇\n\n06:37.802 --> 06:43.046\n雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了\n\n07:05.930 --> 07:28.496\n並不會啦因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係所以我要確定一件事情\n\n07:29.176 --> 07:53.386\n就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分\n\n07:53.846 --> 08:14.394\n那因為國安法是刑法的問題所以它其實老實講它的運用範圍是比較窄所以它應該更加嚴謹對不對它應該更加的嚴謹因為它確實刑法的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這一點是應該是最高的指導原則是我也放心不會謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.589,"end":23.655,"text":"謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部"},{"start":28.645,"end":41.465,"text":"來 各位部會首長那麼因為這次的國安法的修正零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在各版本來看到的那麼我們做了一下了解"},{"start":42.947,"end":61.112,"text":"未來恐怕包含下載向大陸的手遊或者是參加這個什麼淘寶啊或者他們網站的一些雙11的活動還有呢未來和大陸的這個只要跟他們的官方有關的活動甚至包含比如我們台北市的雙城論壇或者是啊你所謂針對不特定人來發展組織啊"},{"start":67.874,"end":90.593,"text":"就是他等于说有交付再交付那比如说这位这个盛楚英这位助理已经涉及了他涉嫌供迭那只要有跟他有所接触的都有可能违反相关的这个国安法如果按照现在的各个版本可以算是一个包山包海"},{"start":91.414,"end":118.434,"text":"然后对非常多的社团对非常多的个人可能他不小心他就触法而且违反的是相关的国安法那我想请教一下那么但是我们这样一个包山包海的国安法那请问一下我们的主管机关到底是哪一个主管机关我想请问一下陆委会我们是国安法的主管机关吗"},{"start":119.933,"end":138.999,"text":"報告委員 陸委會不是主管機關 這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院 是行政院所以目前如果相關的 就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的是包含原來我們所查到資料 法務部是嘛 對不對"},{"start":140.018,"end":150.467,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":156.111,"end":174.513,"text":"這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密"},{"start":175.754,"end":201.68,"text":"那所以我想请问一下如果说法务部能不能告诉我那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法务部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有受发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足"},{"start":202.3,"end":225.585,"text":"這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌"},{"start":226.735,"end":247.188,"text":"好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢"},{"start":248.098,"end":266.976,"text":"跟委員報告因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中"},{"start":267.557,"end":295.936,"text":"目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的那個機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候"},{"start":297.117,"end":309.853,"text":"會 我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會"},{"start":310.885,"end":332.541,"text":"就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎"},{"start":334.898,"end":363.462,"text":"我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他"},{"start":364.718,"end":366.625,"text":"因為他只是參與 他不是發起人"},{"start":367.694,"end":376.916,"text":"最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動要堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇"},{"start":397.802,"end":403.046,"text":"雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了"},{"start":425.93,"end":448.496,"text":"並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情"},{"start":449.176,"end":473.386,"text":"就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分"},{"start":473.846,"end":494.394,"text":"那因為國安法是刑法的問題所以它其實老實講它的運用範圍是比較窄所以它應該更加嚴謹對不對它應該更加的嚴謹因為它確實刑法的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這一點是應該是最高的指導原則是 我也放心不會謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":885,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時29分）謝謝主席，我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長。"],["主席：好，副主委跟次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：國防部是處長來，是不是？"],["主席：好，國防部。"],["王委員鴻薇：那內政部長官是司長？"],["主席：好，內政部。"],["王委員鴻薇：各位部會首長，因為這次國安法的修正林林總總，若按照現在各版本所看到的，我們做了一下了解，未來恐怕包含下載大陸的手遊，或者是參加淘寶或者他們網站一些雙十一的活動，還有未來只要跟他們的官方有關的活動，甚至比如臺北市的雙城論壇，或者是所謂針對不特定人來發展組織，就是等於有交付、再交付，譬如說盛礎纓這位助理涉嫌共諜案，只要有跟他有所接觸的都有可能違反相關的國安法，如果按照現在的各個版本，可以算是一個包山包海，然後對非常多的社團、對非常多的個人來說，可能他不小心就會觸法，而且違反的是相關的國安法。我想請教一下，我們這樣一個包山包海的國安法的主管機關到底是哪一個？我想請問一下陸委會是國安法的主管機關嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，陸委會不是主管機關，國安法的主管機關是行政院。"],["王委員鴻薇：是行政院？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是行政院。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以目前如果相關的，就是行政院要制定相關法律的是包含……因為原來我們所查到資料，法務部是嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為國安法條文非常多，所以不同的條文事涉主管不同，目前是內政部、法務部跟國防部都有。"],["王委員鴻薇：三個單位。"],["黃次長世杰：看處理的是哪個條文。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，三個單位。我現在的問題是，我剛才講了，這個國安法橫跨這麼多跟人民、社團相關權利義務的事情，而在這次國安法的修正裡面，還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家重要的核心技術，跟國家相關的……甚至是商業機密，所以我想請問一下，法務部能不能告訴我，針對剛才講的目前相關修法，國防部、內政部以及法務部是不是顯然已經不足了？我剛剛說它是橫跨的，至少我現在看起來，要把經濟部放進去啊！還有數發部變得也很重要，所以我們現在只有3個部會是不是顯然不足？"],["黃次長世杰：這個只是法令研析時候的幕僚機關，誠如剛剛委員所說，裡面的條文假設涉及到各部會其他業務的時候，當然也都要共同來研議、來處理，所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在看起來，你們在架構上還是維持3個部會而已嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：基本上是由行政院來統籌。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，現在我想請問一下，因為剛才也有很多委員問到，因為這麼多的國安法的修正，包山包海，到底會不會有相關的行政院版本？我之前聽到說會提出相關行政院的版本。"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們在研擬中。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，誠如這一次各委員提案所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣，所以目前由行政院統籌，但各該業務的主管機關也都會加入一起來解釋，所以期程上面目前還沒有很明確，但是我們都已經在進行作業當中。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前都還沒有？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的是，比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案，倘若他確實有從事洩漏國家機密、交付相關的機密資料給對岸，不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的機構，這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持，但是我剛才特別講到，因為這些相關內容很多都語意不明的時候，我們擔心會傷及無辜，最怕就是傷及無辜，很多是民眾平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情，他動不動就會觸犯了國安法。","最後一點時間，不好意思，容我問一下梁副主委。在這次修法裡面，特別有提到對於一些跟大陸對岸相關的活動有相關的禁止，您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們是支持要把參與組織的部分加進去，因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑，但是他發起這個組織後加入他組織的人都沒事，譬如說前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子，向德恩有明顯的……甚至還拍效忠影片，加入共諜組織，但是最後法院沒辦法判他，因為他只是參與，他不是發起人，最後法院是用貪污治罪條例判他，大家就覺得很荒謬，所以這個部分我們認為洞要堵起來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我請問一下，因為這條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或參與其活動，即也不能夠參與，我現在是具體的請問，我們現在在兩岸之間，譬如說每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇，如果按照這個條文，變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加，你覺得這個合理嗎？如果今天國安法是無限上綱，只要是對岸境外敵對勢力有參與的，或者他們也有共同發起的，然後這個活動我們都不能參加，像以雙城論壇來說的話，它應該也被禁止囉？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：並不會，因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的，也就是說，看是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在臺灣成立的組織，我們才會認為這個東西是非法組織，非法組織的話才有參與、加入或是活動的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為時間的關係，所以我要確定一件事情，在整個國安法的修正過程，之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流活動，是不是？因為我們參與的也很多，譬如說……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，我認為是不會，因為現在國安法的運用範圍其實是非常低的，我們大部分還是運用兩岸人民關係條例的行政罰部分，因為國安法是刑法的問題，所以老實講，它的運用範圍比較窄。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它應該更加嚴謹，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：它應該更加的嚴謹，因為它涉及刑罰的部分，不要動不動就入人於罪，我覺得這一點應該是最高的指導原則。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，委員放心，不會的，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員林楚茵、陳冠廷、黃建賓、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林楚茵","黃建賓","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員\n沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員陳冠\n廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具\n「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及\n第七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修\n正草案」案；七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正\n草案」案；八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案；九、\n審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00001"}}}