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\"們\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 531.325, \"end\": 531.485, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 531.485, \"end\": 532.227, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 532.227, \"end\": 532.608, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 532.608, \"end\": 532.628, \"score\": 0.153}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,990 --> 00:00:01,010\n黃國健議員\n\n2\n00:00:30,222 --> 00:00:43,099\n那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成\n\n3\n00:00:43,578 --> 00:01:08,959\n它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台\n\n4\n00:01:10,180 --> 00:01:36,276\n其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台\n\n5\n00:01:36,716 --> 00:01:46,729\n所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上\n\n6\n00:01:53,786 --> 00:02:19,115\n那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之撲那我想這個Google或者是Meta它控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們\n\n7\n00:02:19,835 --> 00:02:38,443\n那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分喔那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊喔\n\n8\n00:02:40,304 --> 00:03:00,003\n但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組\n\n9\n00:03:01,304 --> 00:03:21,681\n要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎\n\n10\n00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:39,674\n好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了\n\n11\n00:03:40,214 --> 00:04:07,460\n那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說\n\n12\n00:04:09,521 --> 00:04:33,124\n歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制議價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們議價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以\n\n13\n00:04:33,724 --> 00:04:58,907\n能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向請部長謝謝委員的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題也就是說這個目前像這個網路平台\n\n14\n00:05:00,788 --> 00:05:18,621\n就是等於說他們吸引走大量的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題\n\n15\n00:05:20,382 --> 00:05:39,574\n那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候\n\n16\n00:05:41,095 --> 00:06:00,835\n因為開國這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個\n\n17\n00:06:01,435 --> 00:06:22,804\n我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是你先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者\n\n18\n00:06:24,105 --> 00:06:38,887\n新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有300付錢給澳洲的300家的媒體啊他算是他在2024年就停止了這個這個付費所以\n\n19\n00:06:40,049 --> 00:06:58,905\n所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫Google一個叫Meta那Meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家\n\n20\n00:07:00,146 --> 00:07:28,183\n那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利\n\n21\n00:07:28,183 --> 00:07:48,784\n但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model\n\n22\n00:07:49,645 --> 00:08:15,358\n看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是\n\n23\n00:08:16,058 --> 00:08:44,430\n的確啦這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的好因為今天我們的時間有限喔但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對\n\n24\n00:08:45,791 --> 00:08:52,628\n我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n990\t1010\t黃國健議員\n30222\t43099\t那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成\n43578\t68959\t它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台\n70180\t96276\t其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台\n96716\t106729\t所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上\n113786\t139115\t那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之撲那我想這個Google或者是Meta它控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們\n139835\t158443\t那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分喔那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊喔\n160304\t180003\t但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組\n181304\t201681\t要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎\n203919\t219674\t好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了\n220214\t247460\t那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說\n249521\t273124\t歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制議價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們議價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以\n273724\t298907\t能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向請部長謝謝委員的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題也就是說這個目前像這個網路平台\n300788\t318621\t就是等於說他們吸引走大量的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題\n320382\t339574\t那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候\n341095\t360835\t因為開國這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個\n361435\t382804\t我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是你先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者\n384105\t398887\t新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有300付錢給澳洲的300家的媒體啊他算是他在2024年就停止了這個這個付費所以\n400049\t418905\t所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫Google一個叫Meta那Meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家\n420146\t448183\t那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利\n448183\t468784\t但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model\n469645\t495358\t看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是\n496058\t524430\t的確啦 這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的好 因為今天我們的時間有限喔但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對\n525791\t532628\t我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長\n","txt":"黃國健議員\n那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成\n它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台\n其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台\n所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上\n那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之撲那我想這個Google或者是Meta它控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們\n那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分喔那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊喔\n但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組\n要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎\n好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了\n那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說\n歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制議價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們議價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以\n能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向請部長謝謝委員的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題也就是說這個目前像這個網路平台\n就是等於說他們吸引走大量的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題\n那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候\n因為開國這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個\n我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是你先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者\n新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有300付錢給澳洲的300家的媒體啊他算是他在2024年就停止了這個這個付費所以\n所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫Google一個叫Meta那Meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家\n那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利\n但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model\n看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是\n的確啦 這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的好 因為今天我們的時間有限喔但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對\n我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.990 --> 00:01.010\n黃國健議員\n\n00:30.222 --> 00:43.099\n那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成\n\n00:43.578 --> 01:08.959\n它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台\n\n01:10.180 --> 01:36.276\n其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台\n\n01:36.716 --> 01:46.729\n所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上\n\n01:53.786 --> 02:19.115\n那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之撲那我想這個Google或者是Meta它控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們\n\n02:19.835 --> 02:38.443\n那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分喔那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊喔\n\n02:40.304 --> 03:00.003\n但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組\n\n03:01.304 --> 03:21.681\n要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎\n\n03:23.919 --> 03:39.674\n好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了\n\n03:40.214 --> 04:07.460\n那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說\n\n04:09.521 --> 04:33.124\n歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制議價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們議價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以\n\n04:33.724 --> 04:58.907\n能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向請部長謝謝委員的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題也就是說這個目前像這個網路平台\n\n05:00.788 --> 05:18.621\n就是等於說他們吸引走大量的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題\n\n05:20.382 --> 05:39.574\n那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候\n\n05:41.095 --> 06:00.835\n因為開國這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個\n\n06:01.435 --> 06:22.804\n我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是你先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者\n\n06:24.105 --> 06:38.887\n新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有300付錢給澳洲的300家的媒體啊他算是他在2024年就停止了這個這個付費所以\n\n06:40.049 --> 06:58.905\n所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫Google一個叫Meta那Meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家\n\n07:00.146 --> 07:28.183\n那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利\n\n07:28.183 --> 07:48.784\n但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model\n\n07:49.645 --> 08:15.358\n看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是\n\n08:16.058 --> 08:44.430\n的確啦這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的好因為今天我們的時間有限喔但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對\n\n08:45.791 --> 08:52.628\n我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.99,"end":1.01,"text":"黃國健議員"},{"start":30.222,"end":43.099,"text":"那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成"},{"start":43.578,"end":68.959,"text":"它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台"},{"start":70.18,"end":96.276,"text":"其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台"},{"start":96.716,"end":106.729,"text":"所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上"},{"start":113.786,"end":139.115,"text":"那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之撲那我想這個Google或者是Meta它控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們"},{"start":139.835,"end":158.443,"text":"那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分喔那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊喔"},{"start":160.304,"end":180.003,"text":"但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組"},{"start":181.304,"end":201.681,"text":"要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎"},{"start":203.919,"end":219.674,"text":"好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了"},{"start":220.214,"end":247.46,"text":"那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說"},{"start":249.521,"end":273.124,"text":"歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制議價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們議價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以"},{"start":273.724,"end":298.907,"text":"能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向請部長謝謝委員的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題也就是說這個目前像這個網路平台"},{"start":300.788,"end":318.621,"text":"就是等於說他們吸引走大量的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題"},{"start":320.382,"end":339.574,"text":"那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候"},{"start":341.095,"end":360.835,"text":"因為開國這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個"},{"start":361.435,"end":382.804,"text":"我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是你先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者"},{"start":384.105,"end":398.887,"text":"新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有300付錢給澳洲的300家的媒體啊他算是他在2024年就停止了這個這個付費所以"},{"start":400.049,"end":418.905,"text":"所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫Google一個叫Meta那Meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家"},{"start":420.146,"end":448.183,"text":"那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利"},{"start":448.183,"end":468.784,"text":"但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model"},{"start":469.645,"end":495.358,"text":"看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是"},{"start":496.058,"end":524.43,"text":"的確啦 這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的好 因為今天我們的時間有限喔但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對"},{"start":525.791,"end":532.628,"text":"我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。今天本席要談的就是新聞媒體跟數位平臺議價制度的問題，當我們更深入地去探討這樣子的一個問題，會發現這已經不只是新聞產業的生死問題，更有可能會關係到臺灣民主是不是能夠正常運作的根本。先講一個大家都知道，但是也很無奈的狀況，我們每天在滑手機、看新聞的同時，其實絕大多數的廣告收入大概有七成到八成是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的平臺給拿走了。這些所謂的國際跨國平臺，光是2019年其實已經具有大概458億的市場規模，這個數字其實還滿驚人的，但是真正產出內容的，或者是冒著風險正在追蹤真相的本土新聞平臺，他們辛苦耕耘的結果卻是被這些平臺給剝奪了。這樣新聞媒體、偏鄉的新聞當然可能會消失，地方的報導也可能會不見，這其實都是我們最關心的──臺灣第四權正在一點一滴地被侵蝕殆盡，最主要的原因就是廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平臺，所以為什麼我們平臺的議價制度要趕快建立？其實真的是當務之急。","根據統計，從2011年到2021年臺灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上。另外，累積流失的廣告金額將近600億之多，我想Google或者是Meta控制了臺灣超過七成的數位廣告市場，也就是說，新聞的產製其實都是由臺灣本土的媒體自行來負擔，但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們，對於本土的新聞業者來講，其實是非常辛苦的一個部分。我們臺灣有將近40%，其實包含你、我，我們平常在看新聞的時候，可能會透過臉書或者是透過LINE等等的數位平臺在接收這些新聞的資訊，但是我們難免都會造成臺灣本土新聞產出後淪為所謂的犧牲者。所以從2021年，我知道行政院其實也承諾要推動新聞議價的制度，也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平臺議價制度的推動小組，要來積極做這件事情，但是三年過去了，目前為止我們看不到任何具體的立法草案，也等不到對外公布的時程跟整個制度的架構。據本席了解，這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：請問目前該小組到底實際的運作狀況如何？另外還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平臺對話的機制，最後一次的會議也是落在2023年9月6號，之後也沒有下文了，這個部分其實我們真的非常、非常的懷疑，從2021年一直講到現在，不是三年過去，其實是將近四年的時間，到底我們現在議價的模式是什麼？我們的方向又是如何？我們要怎麼樣來保障地方媒體跟非營利新聞深入報導的生存發展？這其實非常非常的重要，剛剛其實有很多的委員也特別提到國外的例子，不管是說歐盟，他們是用所謂的鄰接權立法，或者是加拿大，他們是用所謂的新聞基金，另外像澳洲，他們是強制議價加上仲裁。我想要問的就是，目前到底你們會議中斷的原因是什麼？接下來我們的議價模式又是什麼？有沒有一個比較接近的進程，是讓我們能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡，我們的共識在哪裡，我們跨部會的整合，這個共識有沒有一個具體的方向？請部長說明。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的觀察跟建議。的確，新聞有價是大家的共識，只是這個問題不是只有臺灣的問題，也就是說目前像網路平臺吸走了大量的流量，影響到當地媒體的一些商業營收，這個東西當然是一定要處理的。我上任之後，其實跟很多的學者、很多的公協會有討論過這個議題，當然，這個議題在我上任之後，過去這一、兩年的確也發生很大變化。剛剛講這是國際性的問題，我們去觀察國際幾個重要的指標，一個就是澳洲，一個是加拿大，當然也包括歐盟。原先我上任的時候，開過了這幾次會，那時候可能是因為AI的發展，所以認為著作鄰接權是一個可能可以推動的方向，不過從歐盟推動一年多的狀況來看，目前對媒體的營收感覺上也沒有太大的助益，所以這個到底是哪個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們先不要管歐盟的推動對媒體營收有沒有多大的助益，那是國外的一個方向，但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個作法，其實它也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載，這件事情其實很重要。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是先以怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞媒體業者來作一個出發點，然後再來討論。比方說你講澳洲，其實Google跟Meta也是乖乖付錢給澳洲的300家媒體。"],["黃部長彥男：但是它在2024年就停止了付費，所以這個model為什麼會忽然間稍微有點……我們還在觀察，就是澳洲的模式，在目前我們……"],["郭委員昱晴：那要觀察到什麼時候？"],["黃部長彥男：依經濟學人的報導，包括我們現在看到澳洲目前的……因為其實講起來就兩家公司，一個叫Google，一個叫Meta，Meta是完全不配合，不管是在哪個國家。Google一開始在澳洲有配合，不過目前也暫停，加拿大也暫停。所以這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體，在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察，再加上最近因為關稅的問題而複雜化了，所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對臺灣最有利的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是一年拖過一年，一天拖過一天，如果一直處於這種未定的狀態，一直覺得別人怎麼樣，然後我們可能就會怎麼樣，其實這個部分也真的會延遲我們議價的進程。"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們現在就是在過去這一、兩年……當然，這兩、三年Google那個共同基金的model，看有沒有辦法讓Google、甚至於Meta也能夠來用，讓這個model對臺灣媒體能有些幫助，是我們覺得可以再去溝通協調的部分，在立法之前啦。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["黃部長彥男：在我們確定哪個法是有效的之後，我們當然會快速地去立法，但是在立法之前，也許Google共同基金的model是一個作法。另外一個可能的作法是，的確這整個因為技術的進步，我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型，所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數發部現在在考慮的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，今天我的時間有限，我們在面臨所謂跨國平臺的壓力下，怎麼樣先保護我們自己的新聞業者，跟我們自己的媒體平臺，這個才是真正的出發點。另外其他國家的model當然是拿來做一些參考，但不動的話，我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對。"],["黃部長彥男：了解，我們有積極的在做……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們希望儘快，如果有新的進程再麻煩提供給我們辦公室，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭昱晴委員。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}}