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\"必\", \"start\": 428.992, \"end\": 429.272, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 429.272, \"end\": 430.213, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 430.213, \"end\": 430.854, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 430.854, \"end\": 431.034, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 431.034, \"end\": 431.174, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 431.174, \"end\": 431.754, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 431.754, \"end\": 431.915, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 431.915, \"end\": 431.935, \"score\": 0.008}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"樹\"}, {\"word\": \"葉\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,131 --> 00:00:03,756\n謝謝主席請主席邀請黃部長好黃部長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:12,143 --> 00:00:30,533\n今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面\n\n3\n00:00:33,594 --> 00:00:37,295\n因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑的非常的嚴重那目前就是\n\n4\n00:00:56,159 --> 00:01:13,947\n也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態\n\n5\n00:01:22,426 --> 00:01:47,414\n所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎\n\n6\n00:01:48,714 --> 00:02:03,307\n從一開始那個我就一直認為這剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是\n\n7\n00:02:05,089 --> 00:02:24,633\n工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個\n\n8\n00:02:34,915 --> 00:02:44,466\n一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害\n\n9\n00:02:45,163 --> 00:03:11,542\n是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制\n\n10\n00:03:12,543 --> 00:03:27,416\n那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年\n\n11\n00:03:29,899 --> 00:03:46,917\n幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果\n\n12\n00:03:47,798 --> 00:04:13,998\n然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢\n\n13\n00:04:15,532 --> 00:04:39,404\n是因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾\n\n14\n00:04:40,663 --> 00:04:59,372\n就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上\n\n15\n00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:30,421\n因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案\n\n16\n00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:45,461\n是因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google\n\n17\n00:05:46,622 --> 00:06:07,980\n可是這兩個大的一個平台他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態\n\n18\n00:06:10,081 --> 00:06:24,451\n當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說\n\n19\n00:06:25,552 --> 00:06:47,654\n這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態\n\n20\n00:06:49,575 --> 00:07:11,935\n只要一方獨大甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對於整個就是民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳樹葉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1131\t3756\t謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃部長好 黃部長委員好\n12143\t30533\t今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面\n33594\t37295\t因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑的非常的嚴重那目前就是\n56159\t73947\t也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態\n82426\t107414\t所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎\n108714\t123307\t從一開始那個我就一直認為這剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是\n125089\t144633\t工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個\n154915\t164466\t一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害\n165163\t191542\t是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制\n192543\t207416\t那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年\n209899\t226917\t幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果\n227798\t253998\t然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢\n255532\t279404\t是 因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾\n280663\t299372\t就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上\n305796\t330421\t因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案\n331280\t345461\t是 因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google\n346622\t367980\t可是這兩個大的一個平台他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態\n370081\t384451\t當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說\n385552\t407654\t這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態\n409575\t431935\t只要一方獨大甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對於整個就是民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳樹葉\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃部長好 黃部長委員好\n今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面\n因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑的非常的嚴重那目前就是\n也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態\n所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎\n從一開始那個我就一直認為這剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是\n工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個\n一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害\n是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制\n那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年\n幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果\n然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢\n是 因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾\n就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上\n因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案\n是 因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google\n可是這兩個大的一個平台他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態\n當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說\n這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態\n只要一方獨大甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對於整個就是民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳樹葉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.131 --> 00:03.756\n謝謝主席請主席邀請黃部長好黃部長委員好\n\n00:12.143 --> 00:30.533\n今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面\n\n00:33.594 --> 00:37.295\n因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑的非常的嚴重那目前就是\n\n00:56.159 --> 01:13.947\n也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態\n\n01:22.426 --> 01:47.414\n所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎\n\n01:48.714 --> 02:03.307\n從一開始那個我就一直認為這剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是\n\n02:05.089 --> 02:24.633\n工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個\n\n02:34.915 --> 02:44.466\n一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害\n\n02:45.163 --> 03:11.542\n是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制\n\n03:12.543 --> 03:27.416\n那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年\n\n03:29.899 --> 03:46.917\n幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果\n\n03:47.798 --> 04:13.998\n然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢\n\n04:15.532 --> 04:39.404\n是因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾\n\n04:40.663 --> 04:59.372\n就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上\n\n05:05.796 --> 05:30.421\n因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案\n\n05:31.280 --> 05:45.461\n是因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google\n\n05:46.622 --> 06:07.980\n可是這兩個大的一個平台他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態\n\n06:10.081 --> 06:24.451\n當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說\n\n06:25.552 --> 06:47.654\n這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態\n\n06:49.575 --> 07:11.935\n只要一方獨大甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對於整個就是民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳樹葉\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.131,"end":3.756,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃部長好 黃部長委員好"},{"start":12.143,"end":30.533,"text":"今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面"},{"start":33.594,"end":37.295,"text":"因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑的非常的嚴重那目前就是"},{"start":56.159,"end":73.947,"text":"也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態"},{"start":82.426,"end":107.414,"text":"所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎"},{"start":108.714,"end":123.307,"text":"從一開始那個我就一直認為這剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是"},{"start":125.089,"end":144.633,"text":"工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個"},{"start":154.915,"end":164.466,"text":"一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害"},{"start":165.163,"end":191.542,"text":"是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制"},{"start":192.543,"end":207.416,"text":"那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年"},{"start":209.899,"end":226.917,"text":"幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果"},{"start":227.798,"end":253.998,"text":"然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢"},{"start":255.532,"end":279.404,"text":"是 因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾"},{"start":280.663,"end":299.372,"text":"就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上"},{"start":305.796,"end":330.421,"text":"因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案"},{"start":331.28,"end":345.461,"text":"是 因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google"},{"start":346.622,"end":367.98,"text":"可是這兩個大的一個平台他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態"},{"start":370.081,"end":384.451,"text":"當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說"},{"start":385.552,"end":407.654,"text":"這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態"},{"start":409.575,"end":431.935,"text":"只要一方獨大甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對於整個就是民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳樹葉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時38分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平臺議價法草案進行詢答。","我們知道在網路興盛之後，對於國人閱聽的習慣都有很大的改變，尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面，因為人手一機及方便性，大部分的國人都是從網路上來獲得新聞閱讀跟訊息，也造成傳統的新聞媒體，尤其是報紙媒體訂閱率也下滑的非常嚴重，目前因為網路平臺的一方獨大，造成有一些媒體雖然轉往網路發展，可是他們也是受制於媒體，所以對於他們的發展也是有很大的限制。目前應該整個新聞產業跟媒體之間也是呈現不平衡的狀態，相信很多新聞產業、媒體應該也都傾向希望能朝向新聞有價這樣的方向。","本席也看到最近數發部次長在出席一個公開的論壇記者會的時候，也有說新聞應有價，我想請問一下部長，這樣的想法是數發部的立場嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：從一開始，我就一直認為剛剛講的這些都沒錯，因為新聞從業者，不管是採訪新聞或是去做新聞的編輯等等工作，其實是蠻辛苦，所以工作上就要受到一定的酬勞，不能因為平臺業者的出現，讓這些工作收入減少，所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動，這個是我們一直努力的目標，只是在過程中，我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談，確實可以看到國際的情勢，在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜，所以我們目前還在評估，這個一定要推動，也是有急迫性，但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案，讓臺灣的新聞媒體能夠受益，而不是受害。"],["陳委員素月：是，你說有急迫性，也是需要推動，請問部長，數發部這邊有參考其他國家的作法嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，我們參考其他國家的作法大概有三種，一種是強迫議價法，那是以澳洲、加拿大為主；著作鄰接權是以歐盟為主；還有配合基金的機制。所以這三個方法都有國家在實施，也都有遇到一些問題，尤其是委員所提的強迫議價法，主要是看澳洲，澳洲目前在2024年，幾乎這兩個大媒體，包括Google、Meta都停止付費，所以這個會讓我們擔心，因為我們也是針對這兩個大媒體公司，我們擔心如果仿照澳洲立法，是不是會有效果？我們還在考慮是不是有什麼樣混合的方法，或怎樣的方法來讓媒體能夠在……有一個正常的商業機制下，能夠去所謂的談判，得到該有的報酬，我們還在跟各方面溝通，也在觀察國際的發展趨勢。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們看到目前已經有實施的就是澳洲、加拿大還有歐盟，可是他們實施之後，卻遭受到平臺Meta跟Google的抵制，拒絕付費，甚至封鎖他們的新聞露出。如果是這樣子的狀況，好像對於閱聽者，就是一般民眾反而造成了傷害，這樣子又不是我們願意看到的結果。澳洲跟加拿大就發生這樣的狀況讓我們借鏡了，如果我們實施媒體議價法的話，我們有那個能力去跟平臺談判嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這個就是我們所擔心的，因為像Meta在臺灣的流量裡面，小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的，所以他很可能會決定同樣不提供任何新聞，事實上一般媒體的流量反而會減少。這是我們擔心的，所以這個必須要再評估，我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通，希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案。"],["陳委員素月：是，事實上以目前整個網路的生態，好像都是受制於平臺，全世界使用的大概都是依賴Meta還有Google，可是這兩個大的平臺都是利用演算法還有相關的手段，審核不管是媒體或個人在使用上的內容露出或者點閱率、觸及率，這樣子的狀況事實上也是失衡的狀態。當然對於整個傳統媒體或者網路媒體，他們的營收也受到很大的衝擊。","未來我們當然要好好地審慎評估怎樣推動媒體議價，也要思考媒體議價在立法之後，是不是可以真正協助媒體改善他們產業所面臨的困境？另外一方面，我們當然也希望，要怎樣思考讓平臺及媒體還有閱聽者（就是民眾），三方面應該都是共創三贏的狀態，因為只要一方獨大，我剛剛提到網路平臺的獨大，他們基於自己的收益問題來控制內容跟觸及率，這樣子對於民主國家的言論自由也是很大的傷害，所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","現在請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}}