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203.687, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 203.687, \"end\": 203.707, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 204.787, \"end\": 226.612, \"text\": \"那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 204.787, \"end\": 204.967, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 204.967, \"end\": 205.227, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 205.227, \"end\": 205.567, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 205.567, \"end\": 206.227, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 206.227, \"end\": 206.327, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 206.327, \"end\": 207.688, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 207.688, \"end\": 207.808, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 207.808, \"end\": 207.988, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": 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00:00:49,499\n如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的\n\n4\n00:00:51,784 --> 00:01:13,135\n報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又\n\n5\n00:01:13,795 --> 00:01:33,073\n因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法\n\n6\n00:01:34,246 --> 00:02:02,093\n跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場\n\n7\n00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:31,024\n因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權責範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論\n\n8\n00:02:31,624 --> 00:02:54,699\n今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來\n\n9\n00:02:57,260 --> 00:03:23,707\n如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的\n\n10\n00:03:24,787 --> 00:03:46,612\n那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能\n\n11\n00:03:47,372 --> 00:04:05,844\n不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由的帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋得到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有一個議價法上路了之後\n\n12\n00:04:06,857 --> 00:04:15,611\n那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的\n\n13\n00:04:18,278 --> 00:04:46,044\n可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些\n\n14\n00:04:48,065 --> 00:05:09,357\n這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的\n\n15\n00:05:09,557 --> 00:05:37,655\n甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形\n\n16\n00:05:38,576 --> 00:05:57,691\n那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有\n\n17\n00:05:58,992 --> 00:06:12,427\n對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例\n\n18\n00:06:13,376 --> 00:06:41,715\n所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個評判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n489\t5895\t謝謝主席 邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好 請黃部長 陳代理主委\n15579\t37440\t兩位好 今天的主要的討論議題是這個新聞媒體跟數位平台的一個議價法案那在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金啊 還是怎麼樣的金額給國家 對不對\n39602\t49499\t如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的\n51784\t73135\t報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又\n73795\t93073\t因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法\n94246\t122093\t跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場\n124800\t151024\t因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權責範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論\n151624\t174699\t今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來\n177260\t203707\t如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的\n204787\t226612\t那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能\n227372\t245844\t不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由的帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋得到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有一個議價法上路了之後\n246857\t255611\t那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的\n258278\t286044\t可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些\n288065\t309357\t這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的\n309557\t337655\t甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形\n338576\t357691\t那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有\n358992\t372427\t對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例\n373376\t401715\t所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個評判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好 以上 謝謝\n403336\t403387\t谢谢大家\n","txt":"謝謝主席 邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好 請黃部長 陳代理主委\n兩位好 今天的主要的討論議題是這個新聞媒體跟數位平台的一個議價法案那在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金啊 還是怎麼樣的金額給國家 對不對\n如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的\n報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又\n因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法\n跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場\n因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權責範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論\n今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來\n如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的\n那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能\n不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由的帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋得到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有一個議價法上路了之後\n那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的\n可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些\n這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的\n甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形\n那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有\n對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例\n所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個評判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好 以上 謝謝\n谢谢大家\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.489 --> 00:05.895\n謝謝主席邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好請黃部長陳代理主委\n\n00:15.579 --> 00:37.440\n兩位好今天的主要的討論議題是這個新聞媒體跟數位平台的一個議價法案那在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金啊還是怎麼樣的金額給國家對不對\n\n00:39.602 --> 00:49.499\n如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的\n\n00:51.784 --> 01:13.135\n報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又\n\n01:13.795 --> 01:33.073\n因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法\n\n01:34.246 --> 02:02.093\n跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場\n\n02:04.800 --> 02:31.024\n因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權責範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論\n\n02:31.624 --> 02:54.699\n今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來\n\n02:57.260 --> 03:23.707\n如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的\n\n03:24.787 --> 03:46.612\n那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能\n\n03:47.372 --> 04:05.844\n不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由的帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋得到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有一個議價法上路了之後\n\n04:06.857 --> 04:15.611\n那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的\n\n04:18.278 --> 04:46.044\n可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些\n\n04:48.065 --> 05:09.357\n這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的\n\n05:09.557 --> 05:37.655\n甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形\n\n05:38.576 --> 05:57.691\n那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有\n\n05:58.992 --> 06:12.427\n對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例\n\n06:13.376 --> 06:41.715\n所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個評判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.489,"end":5.895,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好 請黃部長 陳代理主委"},{"start":15.579,"end":37.44,"text":"兩位好 今天的主要的討論議題是這個新聞媒體跟數位平台的一個議價法案那在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金啊 還是怎麼樣的金額給國家 對不對"},{"start":39.602,"end":49.499,"text":"如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的"},{"start":51.784,"end":73.135,"text":"報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又"},{"start":73.795,"end":93.073,"text":"因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法"},{"start":94.246,"end":122.093,"text":"跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場"},{"start":124.8,"end":151.024,"text":"因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權責範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論"},{"start":151.624,"end":174.699,"text":"今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來"},{"start":177.26,"end":203.707,"text":"如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的"},{"start":204.787,"end":226.612,"text":"那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能"},{"start":227.372,"end":245.844,"text":"不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由的帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋得到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有一個議價法上路了之後"},{"start":246.857,"end":255.611,"text":"那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的"},{"start":258.278,"end":286.044,"text":"可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些"},{"start":288.065,"end":309.357,"text":"這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的"},{"start":309.557,"end":337.655,"text":"甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形"},{"start":338.576,"end":357.691,"text":"那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有"},{"start":358.992,"end":372.427,"text":"對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例"},{"start":373.376,"end":401.715,"text":"所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個評判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":403.336,"end":403.387,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時54分）謝謝主席，邀請數發部黃部長還有通傳會陳代理主委。"],["主席：好，請黃部長、陳代主委。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位好。今天討論的主要議題是新聞媒體與數位平臺的議價法案，借鏡其他國家的不同作法，一種是個別媒體業者的簽約，一種是直接一筆類似代金還是什麼樣的金額給國家，對不對？如果我國未來要推的話，兩位認為可能會朝哪個方面去推？哪一種會是比較適合的？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，關於怎麼樣落實新聞有價，目前主要是三種方案，三種方案都有國家在實施，也都有遇到一些問題，所以目前我們也在觀察，尤其是最近因為政治的關係還有關稅的問題，所以等到這個比較清楚之後，我們希望能夠跟大院和民眾溝通，找到一個最適合臺灣的方案，我們就會……希望儘快，不過目前的確沒有哪個方法是最……"],["廖委員先翔：我想聽聽看NCC的看法。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們110年有做產業調查，其實現行在沒有立法之前，已經有不少業者跟平臺協商議價，就是兩造之間會有契約關係，但就是不透明，業者complain的就是不透明。"],["廖委員先翔：所以未來如果立法，你們認為會傾向哪一種方案？站在NCC、新聞媒體獨立的立場。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統廣電、有拿執照的那一塊，這一塊目前暫時不在我們的作用法、在我們的權責範圍，但是我們產業調查的結果發現，有簽約的大概是希望平臺跟它的議價制度能夠透明，至於剛剛部長所提到的三種方法，其實各界都還在討論當中，沒有一致的定論。"],["廖委員先翔：新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的層次，另外一個層次我想討論的是新聞業或者是媒體業、記者存在的最大一個價值在於他能夠自由地來批判時事，無論是政府還是社會各個面向的問題，如果我們的數位平臺將來是和個別媒體業簽約的話，那就變成這個平臺可能過去如果沒有做任何限制的話，任何一個媒體的多元化報導都可以在這個平臺上面露出，如果它沒有特別的限制的話；如果它有特別去限制的話，可能就會被輿論批判說它去做一些思想審查等等的。如果將來法令上路之後，我們都知道，其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人、任何一家公司沒有意識形態，一定都有啦！這一定都有的！包括Google有它自己的意識形態，臉書也有它自己的意識形態，如果未來議價法案上路，它可不可以反而……過去它可能怕被扣上言論審查的帽子，而不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的審查，所以必須讓所有的新聞媒體都公平地露出、至少搜尋得到，當然，演算法可能有它內部的機制，如果未來有一個議價的法案上路之後，這家數位平臺在議價的過程當中，會不會有它自己的思想審查？這是我非常擔心的。","你說歐美的會不會有？歐美的可能會有，應該說每一家廠商都會有，甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對思想進行審查的可能是對岸大陸的媒體，你說它有很多的平臺，那它未來在相關的新聞媒體上架的時候，會不會利用議價的手段來做一個言論審查的機制？我擔心的是這一個。部長或主委可不可以就這個面向提出你們的看法？"],["黃部長彥男：這的確是會令人擔心的。就是在議價的過程中是怎麼決定的，像我們看到澳洲就是幾家大媒體有去議價，其他都沒有去議價，所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場，其實這是不好的。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至在議價的過程中給人家軟釘子嘛！給一個不合理的價格，符合它思想價值的，可以用比較好的價格去簽約，不符合它思想價值的媒體，就用它認為不合理的價格使得簽約簽不成，這就會導致未來新聞媒體沒有辦法在這個平臺多元化地提供給大眾，變成一個思想箝制的情形，NCC的立場呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這在目前是沒有，未來如果要立法的話，平臺業者上架、有線電視平臺有一個條款，類似你要公平對待啦！也許未來的立法裡頭也會有對應的類似條款來要求說：你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查，來連線連到你要跟我議價的權利範圍或者分潤的比例。"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以我認為，我們當然是希望「新聞有價」它是一個價值，但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞的言論自由、批判自由，要先維持新聞的批判跟評論的自由，我們再來保障他們的新聞有價的價值。我也希望後續在做相關討論的時候，對於這個更上層的東西，我們要避免它變成一個思想箝制的工具。好不好？以上。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}}