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\"而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 162.085, \"end\": 162.205, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 162.205, \"end\": 162.365, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 162.365, \"end\": 162.705, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 162.705, \"end\": 163.186, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 163.186, \"end\": 163.406, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 163.406, \"end\": 163.726, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 163.726, \"end\": 163.866, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 163.866, \"end\": 164.026, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 164.026, \"end\": 164.086, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 164.086, \"end\": 164.446, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"留\", 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\"end\": 231.618, \"text\": \"我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 212.59, \"end\": 213.17, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 213.17, \"end\": 213.491, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 213.491, \"end\": 214.191, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 214.191, \"end\": 214.371, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 214.371, \"end\": 214.411, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 214.411, \"end\": 214.731, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 214.731, \"end\": 214.891, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 214.891, \"end\": 215.091, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 215.091, \"end\": 215.311, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 215.311, \"end\": 215.491, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"法\", 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477.344, \"end\": 477.504, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 477.504, \"end\": 477.624, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 477.624, \"end\": 477.684, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 477.684, \"end\": 477.704, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 477.704, \"end\": 477.724, \"score\": 0.023}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,674 --> 00:00:19,469\n謝謝主席我可以直接請那個社家署的人嗎謝謝社家署的哪一位好那部長可以休息一下但是還是要請部長聆聽就好了不用上台沒關係社家署謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:25,916 --> 00:00:54,533\n好組長吳安我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎下一張委員好我們科長好是科長已經送進院會了嗎關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了那後續會走程序來送立法院好所以看起來已經定案了嗎那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的\n\n3\n00:00:56,093 --> 00:01:15,659\n協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加長管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前呢我們在你們的版本推育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面呢\n\n4\n00:01:24,242 --> 00:01:41,519\n有把这个违反的情节分成所谓违法情节重大或者是违法上非情节重大或者是违法情节轻微者我很好奇你们到时候要怎么定义这个东西是在相关执法或行政命令当中说明吗因为这个样态我认为非常的复杂\n\n5\n00:01:42,643 --> 00:01:55,408\n我們會訂相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查人員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的\n\n6\n00:01:57,242 --> 00:02:07,974\n有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對\n\n7\n00:02:16,664 --> 00:02:41,685\n好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡\n\n8\n00:02:42,085 --> 00:03:01,837\n而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:03,578 --> 00:03:31,201\n呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的耳朵法的第八條已經明定我們未來會以有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個認定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚\n\n10\n00:03:32,590 --> 00:03:51,618\n我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎\n\n11\n00:03:52,418 --> 00:03:58,644\n好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣\n\n12\n00:04:03,317 --> 00:04:33,017\n薪水呢状态也不一样加薪的幅度也不一样可是目前之所以会产生这个困境是因为这些保姆的薪资是由中央交给地方政府自行定定所以产生个限是落差很大有没有机会带回中央来讨论如何设定一个好的薪资集聚或者是调薪的逻辑跟原则让愿意留在这个产业照顾小孩的这些保姆们他们会觉得这件事情是有意义跟有价值的\n\n13\n00:04:33,377 --> 00:04:46,625\n像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看\n\n14\n00:04:48,121 --> 00:05:16,823\n我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以\n\n15\n00:05:18,904 --> 00:05:35,114\n對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好我覺得要更積極啦好我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對\n\n16\n00:05:36,075 --> 00:05:53,255\n好再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制\n\n17\n00:05:54,396 --> 00:06:12,343\n這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧目前我們要看到很多\n\n18\n00:06:13,283 --> 00:06:30,564\n被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個\n\n19\n00:06:33,727 --> 00:07:00,625\n因为这些孩子都是身心受过伤的他的照顾难度比较高虽然居托的保姆有搭配相关的职能培训可是居托中心的仿事员并没有相关的职能跟培训所以比起所谓的儿少保社工我们认为这些仿事员缺乏所谓家外安置相关的评估照顾状况跟理解这个风险的能力所以我们也怀疑甚至我们担心很多转介单位\n\n20\n00:07:04,207 --> 00:07:31,298\n也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子他就被評估為一般居家托育案件而不會完整的揭露所謂安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊那我們如何考慮到這個被安置兒少的特殊性他不應該一體直接適用所謂居托寄有的規範這些事情聽起來有困難但是我認為在凱凱案身上我們應該要學到這個教訓所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論我們是直接建議修改處理原則的三四五\n\n21\n00:07:33,764 --> 00:07:57,724\n因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好謝謝社家署謝謝主席好謝謝陳培文委員的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5674\t19469\t謝謝主席我可以直接請那個社家署的人嗎謝謝社家署的哪一位好那部長可以休息一下但是還是要請部長聆聽就好了不用上台沒關係社家署謝謝\n25916\t54533\t好 組長吳安 我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即 我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎下一張 委員好 我們科長好是科長 已經送進院會了嗎 關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了 那後續會走程序來送立法院好 所以看起來已經定案了嗎 那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的\n56093\t75659\t協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加長管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前呢我們在你們的版本推育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面呢\n84242\t101519\t有把这个违反的情节分成所谓违法情节重大或者是违法上非情节重大或者是违法情节轻微者我很好奇你们到时候要怎么定义这个东西是在相关执法或行政命令当中说明吗因为这个样态我认为非常的复杂\n102643\t115408\t我們會訂相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查人員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的\n117242\t127974\t有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對\n136664\t161685\t好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡\n162085\t181837\t而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼\n183578\t211201\t呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的耳朵法的第八條已經明定我們未來會以有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個認定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚\n212590\t231618\t我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎\n232418\t238644\t好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣\n243317\t273017\t薪水呢状态也不一样加薪的幅度也不一样可是目前之所以会产生这个困境是因为这些保姆的薪资是由中央交给地方政府自行定定所以产生个限是落差很大有没有机会带回中央来讨论如何设定一个好的薪资集聚或者是调薪的逻辑跟原则让愿意留在这个产业照顾小孩的这些保姆们他们会觉得这件事情是有意义跟有价值的\n273377\t286625\t像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看\n288121\t316823\t我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以\n318904\t335114\t對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好我覺得要更積極啦好我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對\n336075\t353255\t好 再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制\n354396\t372343\t這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧目前我們要看到很多\n373283\t390564\t被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個\n393727\t420625\t因为这些孩子都是身心受过伤的他的照顾难度比较高虽然居托的保姆有搭配相关的职能培训可是居托中心的仿事员并没有相关的职能跟培训所以比起所谓的儿少保社工我们认为这些仿事员缺乏所谓家外安置相关的评估照顾状况跟理解这个风险的能力所以我们也怀疑甚至我们担心很多转介单位\n424207\t451298\t也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子他就被評估為一般居家托育案件而不會完整的揭露所謂安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊那我們如何考慮到這個被安置兒少的特殊性他不應該一體直接適用所謂居托寄有的規範這些事情聽起來有困難但是我認為在凱凱案身上我們應該要學到這個教訓所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論我們是直接建議修改處理原則的三四五\n453764\t477724\t因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好 謝謝社家署 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培文委員的發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席我可以直接請那個社家署的人嗎謝謝社家署的哪一位好那部長可以休息一下但是還是要請部長聆聽就好了不用上台沒關係社家署謝謝\n好 組長吳安 我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即 我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎下一張 委員好 我們科長好是科長 已經送進院會了嗎 關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了 那後續會走程序來送立法院好 所以看起來已經定案了嗎 那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的\n協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加長管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前呢我們在你們的版本推育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面呢\n有把这个违反的情节分成所谓违法情节重大或者是违法上非情节重大或者是违法情节轻微者我很好奇你们到时候要怎么定义这个东西是在相关执法或行政命令当中说明吗因为这个样态我认为非常的复杂\n我們會訂相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查人員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的\n有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對\n好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡\n而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼\n呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的耳朵法的第八條已經明定我們未來會以有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個認定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚\n我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎\n好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣\n薪水呢状态也不一样加薪的幅度也不一样可是目前之所以会产生这个困境是因为这些保姆的薪资是由中央交给地方政府自行定定所以产生个限是落差很大有没有机会带回中央来讨论如何设定一个好的薪资集聚或者是调薪的逻辑跟原则让愿意留在这个产业照顾小孩的这些保姆们他们会觉得这件事情是有意义跟有价值的\n像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看\n我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以\n對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好我覺得要更積極啦好我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對\n好 再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制\n這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧目前我們要看到很多\n被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個\n因为这些孩子都是身心受过伤的他的照顾难度比较高虽然居托的保姆有搭配相关的职能培训可是居托中心的仿事员并没有相关的职能跟培训所以比起所谓的儿少保社工我们认为这些仿事员缺乏所谓家外安置相关的评估照顾状况跟理解这个风险的能力所以我们也怀疑甚至我们担心很多转介单位\n也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子他就被評估為一般居家托育案件而不會完整的揭露所謂安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊那我們如何考慮到這個被安置兒少的特殊性他不應該一體直接適用所謂居托寄有的規範這些事情聽起來有困難但是我認為在凱凱案身上我們應該要學到這個教訓所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論我們是直接建議修改處理原則的三四五\n因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好 謝謝社家署 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培文委員的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.674 --> 00:19.469\n謝謝主席我可以直接請那個社家署的人嗎謝謝社家署的哪一位好那部長可以休息一下但是還是要請部長聆聽就好了不用上台沒關係社家署謝謝\n\n00:25.916 --> 00:54.533\n好組長吳安我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎下一張委員好我們科長好是科長已經送進院會了嗎關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了那後續會走程序來送立法院好所以看起來已經定案了嗎那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的\n\n00:56.093 --> 01:15.659\n協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加長管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前呢我們在你們的版本推育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面呢\n\n01:24.242 --> 01:41.519\n有把这个违反的情节分成所谓违法情节重大或者是违法上非情节重大或者是违法情节轻微者我很好奇你们到时候要怎么定义这个东西是在相关执法或行政命令当中说明吗因为这个样态我认为非常的复杂\n\n01:42.643 --> 01:55.408\n我們會訂相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查人員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的\n\n01:57.242 --> 02:07.974\n有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對\n\n02:16.664 --> 02:41.685\n好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡\n\n02:42.085 --> 03:01.837\n而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼\n\n03:03.578 --> 03:31.201\n呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的耳朵法的第八條已經明定我們未來會以有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個認定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚\n\n03:32.590 --> 03:51.618\n我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎\n\n03:52.418 --> 03:58.644\n好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣\n\n04:03.317 --> 04:33.017\n薪水呢状态也不一样加薪的幅度也不一样可是目前之所以会产生这个困境是因为这些保姆的薪资是由中央交给地方政府自行定定所以产生个限是落差很大有没有机会带回中央来讨论如何设定一个好的薪资集聚或者是调薪的逻辑跟原则让愿意留在这个产业照顾小孩的这些保姆们他们会觉得这件事情是有意义跟有价值的\n\n04:33.377 --> 04:46.625\n像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看\n\n04:48.121 --> 05:16.823\n我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以\n\n05:18.904 --> 05:35.114\n對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好我覺得要更積極啦好我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對\n\n05:36.075 --> 05:53.255\n好再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制\n\n05:54.396 --> 06:12.343\n這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧目前我們要看到很多\n\n06:13.283 --> 06:30.564\n被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個\n\n06:33.727 --> 07:00.625\n因为这些孩子都是身心受过伤的他的照顾难度比较高虽然居托的保姆有搭配相关的职能培训可是居托中心的仿事员并没有相关的职能跟培训所以比起所谓的儿少保社工我们认为这些仿事员缺乏所谓家外安置相关的评估照顾状况跟理解这个风险的能力所以我们也怀疑甚至我们担心很多转介单位\n\n07:04.207 --> 07:31.298\n也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子他就被評估為一般居家托育案件而不會完整的揭露所謂安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊那我們如何考慮到這個被安置兒少的特殊性他不應該一體直接適用所謂居托寄有的規範這些事情聽起來有困難但是我認為在凱凱案身上我們應該要學到這個教訓所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論我們是直接建議修改處理原則的三四五\n\n07:33.764 --> 07:57.724\n因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好謝謝社家署謝謝主席好謝謝陳培文委員的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.674,"end":19.469,"text":"謝謝主席我可以直接請那個社家署的人嗎謝謝社家署的哪一位好那部長可以休息一下但是還是要請部長聆聽就好了不用上台沒關係社家署謝謝"},{"start":25.916,"end":54.533,"text":"好 組長吳安 我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即 我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎下一張 委員好 我們科長好是科長 已經送進院會了嗎 關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了 那後續會走程序來送立法院好 所以看起來已經定案了嗎 那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的"},{"start":56.093,"end":75.659,"text":"協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加長管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前呢我們在你們的版本推育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面呢"},{"start":84.242,"end":101.519,"text":"有把这个违反的情节分成所谓违法情节重大或者是违法上非情节重大或者是违法情节轻微者我很好奇你们到时候要怎么定义这个东西是在相关执法或行政命令当中说明吗因为这个样态我认为非常的复杂"},{"start":102.643,"end":115.408,"text":"我們會訂相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查人員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的"},{"start":117.242,"end":127.974,"text":"有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對"},{"start":136.664,"end":161.685,"text":"好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡"},{"start":162.085,"end":181.837,"text":"而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼"},{"start":183.578,"end":211.201,"text":"呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的耳朵法的第八條已經明定我們未來會以有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個認定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚"},{"start":212.59,"end":231.618,"text":"我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎"},{"start":232.418,"end":238.644,"text":"好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣"},{"start":243.317,"end":273.017,"text":"薪水呢状态也不一样加薪的幅度也不一样可是目前之所以会产生这个困境是因为这些保姆的薪资是由中央交给地方政府自行定定所以产生个限是落差很大有没有机会带回中央来讨论如何设定一个好的薪资集聚或者是调薪的逻辑跟原则让愿意留在这个产业照顾小孩的这些保姆们他们会觉得这件事情是有意义跟有价值的"},{"start":273.377,"end":286.625,"text":"像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看"},{"start":288.121,"end":316.823,"text":"我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以"},{"start":318.904,"end":335.114,"text":"對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好我覺得要更積極啦好我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對"},{"start":336.075,"end":353.255,"text":"好 再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制"},{"start":354.396,"end":372.343,"text":"這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧目前我們要看到很多"},{"start":373.283,"end":390.564,"text":"被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個"},{"start":393.727,"end":420.625,"text":"因为这些孩子都是身心受过伤的他的照顾难度比较高虽然居托的保姆有搭配相关的职能培训可是居托中心的仿事员并没有相关的职能跟培训所以比起所谓的儿少保社工我们认为这些仿事员缺乏所谓家外安置相关的评估照顾状况跟理解这个风险的能力所以我们也怀疑甚至我们担心很多转介单位"},{"start":424.207,"end":451.298,"text":"也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子他就被評估為一般居家托育案件而不會完整的揭露所謂安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊那我們如何考慮到這個被安置兒少的特殊性他不應該一體直接適用所謂居托寄有的規範這些事情聽起來有困難但是我認為在凱凱案身上我們應該要學到這個教訓所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論我們是直接建議修改處理原則的三四五"},{"start":453.764,"end":477.724,"text":"因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好 謝謝社家署 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培文委員的發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時49分）好，謝謝主席，我可以直接請社家署的人員嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：社家署是哪一位？"],["陳委員培瑜：部長可以休息一下，但是還是要請部長聆聽，不用上臺沒關係。請社家署，謝謝。"],["主席：請李組長。"],["陳委員培瑜：組長午安。我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法，因為我知道現在修法在即，我想要先確認一下，現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎？"],["李組長育穎：委員好，我請我們科長說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。科長，兒童托育服務法的案子已經送進院會了嗎？"],["洪科長偉倫：行政院已經審查完畢了，後續會走程序來送立法院。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以看起來已經定案了，那我們辦公室的很多研究只能在後續修法的協商當中討論，不過沒關係，我還是要提出幾個觀點，因為我們在你們現行的版本裡面其實看不到一些進度。第一個，關於所謂的不適任保母這件事情，其實之前在發生剴剴案以後我們有做了一些加強管理跟修法的部分，可是我認為還有更多優秀的保母需要被獎勵，所以我今天會分兩個部分，第一個是關於不當對待的處罰，目前你們在托育人員違反相關規定的版本裡面有把違反的情節分成違法情節重大、違法尚非情節重大或者是違法情節輕微者，我很好奇你們到時候要怎麼定義這個東西，是在相關子法或行政命令當中說明嗎？因為我認為這個樣態非常的複雜。"],["洪科長偉倫：我們會定相關的子法，另外針對調查人員會來做培訓。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，關於調查人員的培訓，在你們想像中是什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課？是哪一些領域的專家學者？"],["洪科長偉倫：有一些是法律的專家，也會有實務的工作者。我們會參考目前教育部對於教保人員有不當對待情形的調查人員培訓來規劃。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以確定有培訓所謂的種子調查員，之後他們就可以去做後續的調查，對不對？"],["洪科長偉倫：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是在現場第一時間要判斷的樣態非常複雜，我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼，當然，因為現在修法在即，我認為還有很多事情要討論，我只是先做出善意的提醒。","第二個，我們看到現在很多保母有不當行為，目前的處置辦法就是他有被抽檢並發現他把小孩丟在家裡然後就跑去買菜了，或者是讓小孩趴睡，而目前這個抽檢狀況都只是留下一個紀錄，沒有辦法公開，甚至我們認為事情很小所以沒有把這些違法的樣態做成對於這個保母評價的內容，我認為這個很有問題，有很多專家學者也已經提出建議，我不知道你們後續在這件事情上的態度是什麼？"],["洪科長偉倫：這個部分就像我們從委員的簡報所看到的，我們在兒托法的第八條已經明定，我們未來針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項會訂定一個實施準則，讓第一線人員還有我們相關的執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的認定。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，就是你說的這個實施準則，可是我要說的是，所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嘛，這個大家都會列，可是哪些是不能踩的紅線，我認為應該要寫清楚，好嗎？"],["洪科長偉倫：我們會參考教育部目前的訂法跟我們托嬰實務的操作來訂這個子法。"],["陳委員培瑜：或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論，看他們在過去所蒐集的相關違法案例當中有哪些樣態是你們身為主管機關所不能接受的，這樣我們也才可以跟一般人民交代，可以嗎？"],["洪科長偉倫：報告委員，這個也會。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，很積極。再來，我們講到獎勵的部分，以目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況來看，說實話，22個縣市都不一樣，薪水狀態不一樣，加薪的幅度也不一樣，目前之所以會產生這個困境，就是因為這些保母的薪資是由中央交給地方政府自行訂定，所以導致各縣市的落差很大。有沒有機會帶回中央來討論如何設定一個好的薪資級距或者是調薪的邏輯跟原則，讓這些願意留在這個產業照顧小孩的保母們覺得這件事情是有意義跟有價值的？像我自己現在服務的馬祖6年來一次都沒有漲，可是高雄6年就調薪了3次，那當然跟當地的物價水準有關，也跟服務的樣態有關，可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["洪科長偉倫：我們在未來的兒托法會明定有關保母收費項目會由中央統一，那收費數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方的物價指數等部分，所以會由地方政府去訂這個價格。我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府，因為我們現行的管理辦法其實就有明定地方政府要定期依照轄內的物價指數去訂這個……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，可是他們沒有做到嘛！"],["洪科長偉倫：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以後續……"],["洪科長偉倫：我們剛剛有提到，我們在相關的聯繫會議有要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會，檢視保母定價的合理性。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我覺得要更積極啦！我們有相關辦法，但是如果縣市政府不做，我們好像也沒有辦法，對不對？再來，我們也希望可以建立優良保母的獎勵跟公開機制，目前我們從平臺上面可以查到的是所謂有證照的合法保母，可是我認為在過往我們都沒有獎勵所謂優秀的保母這件事情，未來有沒有機會在平臺上註記優良保母的名單，建立獎勵機制？"],["洪科長偉倫：這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府討論，看可以把什麼樣的資訊再揭露出來，讓家長在選擇時做參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果要揭露資訊，就要搭配相關辦法，所以我想後續這個都要再來討論。最後一個是家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧，目前我們看到很多被居家托育的孩子們可能就是原生家庭出了狀況，照你們現在的作法，不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構，其實還會有居家托育的部分。目前中央有訂定地方政府運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則，可是我們認為現在這個原則有一些問題，所以想要跟你們討論。第一個，因為這些孩子都是身心有受過傷，所以照顧難度比較高，雖然居托的保母有搭配相關的知能培訓，可是居托中心的訪視員並沒有相關的知能跟培訓。所以比起所謂的兒少保社工，我們認為這些訪視員缺乏家外安置相關的評估照顧狀況跟理解風險的能力，所以我們也懷疑、甚至我們擔心很多轉介單位很容易把個案視為是一般的居托案，也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子就被評估為一般居家托育案件，而不會完整的揭露安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊。我們如何考慮到被安置兒少的特殊性，他不應該直接一體適用居托既有的規範，這件事情聽起來很困難，但是我認為我們應該要從剴剴案學到這個教訓，所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論？我們是直接建議修改處理原則的第三、四、五條。"],["洪科長偉倫：因為這個涉及到委員所提具體的修正建議，會後我們再跟委員辦公室來做討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，有這麼多具體的建議，我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論，雖然你們說已經送到院會，後續要走相關程序，但是我認為在後續的修法會議當中，對於我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況，我們真的還是要改善入法，好嗎？好，謝謝社家署，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的發言，謝謝社家署的答詢。","請下一位楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}}