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00:00:10,268\n謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎\n\n2\n00:00:15,707 --> 00:00:32,655\n謝謝部長今天是無醫療動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面第二頁看到你們說經濟\n\n3\n00:00:34,156 --> 00:00:55,825\n學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實物狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷\n\n4\n00:01:00,547 --> 00:01:23,281\n我們有做一些研究那時候請次長來一些報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過OnlineNewsAct以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果META他選擇把那個就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉\n\n5\n00:01:24,722 --> 00:01:45,932\n所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結\n\n6\n00:01:46,852 --> 00:02:07,739\n所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告\n\n7\n00:02:09,079 --> 00:02:26,964\n因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊\n\n8\n00:02:29,025 --> 00:02:32,486\n所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體\n\n9\n00:02:45,071 --> 00:02:46,593\n其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本\n\n10\n00:03:00,749 --> 00:03:14,407\n要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長期的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版\n\n11\n00:03:17,350 --> 00:03:30,660\n新聞製造業有更多的從業委員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啊我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢\n\n12\n00:03:45,410 --> 00:04:05,256\n後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來想要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個\n\n13\n00:04:07,097 --> 00:04:35,647\n平台以外生成式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有緣月時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有生成式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料\n\n14\n00:04:36,707 --> 00:05:01,536\n那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這一個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的\n\n15\n00:05:02,497 --> 00:05:20,719\n報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通\n\n16\n00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:48,246\n好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從\n\n17\n00:05:50,586 --> 00:05:55,712\n那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢\n\n18\n00:05:57,291 --> 00:06:22,709\n跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公布讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳珮\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1077\t10268\t謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎\n15707\t32655\t謝謝部長今天是無醫療動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面第二頁看到你們說經濟\n34156\t55825\t學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實物狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷\n60547\t83281\t我們有做一些研究 那時候請次長來一些報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過Online News Act以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果META他選擇把那個 就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉\n84722\t105932\t所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結\n106852\t127739\t所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告\n129079\t146964\t因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊\n149025\t152486\t所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體\n165071\t166593\t其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本\n180749\t194407\t要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長期的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版\n197350\t210660\t新聞製造業有更多的從業委員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啊我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢\n225410\t245256\t後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來想要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個\n247097\t275647\t平台以外生成式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有緣月時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有生成式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料\n276707\t301536\t那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這一個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的\n302497\t320719\t報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通\n321440\t348246\t好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從\n350586\t355712\t那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢\n357291\t382709\t跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公布讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳珮\n","txt":"謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎\n謝謝部長今天是無醫療動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面第二頁看到你們說經濟\n學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實物狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷\n我們有做一些研究 那時候請次長來一些報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過Online News Act以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果META他選擇把那個 就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉\n所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結\n所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告\n因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊\n所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體\n其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本\n要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長期的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版\n新聞製造業有更多的從業委員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啊我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢\n後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來想要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個\n平台以外生成式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有緣月時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有生成式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料\n那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這一個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的\n報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通\n好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從\n那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢\n跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公布讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳珮\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.077 --> 00:10.268\n謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎\n\n00:15.707 --> 00:32.655\n謝謝部長今天是無醫療動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面第二頁看到你們說經濟\n\n00:34.156 --> 00:55.825\n學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實物狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷\n\n01:00.547 --> 01:23.281\n我們有做一些研究那時候請次長來一些報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過OnlineNewsAct以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果META他選擇把那個就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉\n\n01:24.722 --> 01:45.932\n所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結\n\n01:46.852 --> 02:07.739\n所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告\n\n02:09.079 --> 02:26.964\n因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊\n\n02:29.025 --> 02:32.486\n所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體\n\n02:45.071 --> 02:46.593\n其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本\n\n03:00.749 --> 03:14.407\n要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長期的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版\n\n03:17.350 --> 03:30.660\n新聞製造業有更多的從業委員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啊我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢\n\n03:45.410 --> 04:05.256\n後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來想要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個\n\n04:07.097 --> 04:35.647\n平台以外生成式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有緣月時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有生成式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料\n\n04:36.707 --> 05:01.536\n那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這一個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的\n\n05:02.497 --> 05:20.719\n報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通\n\n05:21.440 --> 05:48.246\n好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從\n\n05:50.586 --> 05:55.712\n那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢\n\n05:57.291 --> 06:22.709\n跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公布讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳珮\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.077,"end":10.268,"text":"謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎"},{"start":15.707,"end":32.655,"text":"謝謝部長今天是無醫療動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面第二頁看到你們說經濟"},{"start":34.156,"end":55.825,"text":"學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實物狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷"},{"start":60.547,"end":83.281,"text":"我們有做一些研究 那時候請次長來一些報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過Online News Act以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果META他選擇把那個 就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉"},{"start":84.722,"end":105.932,"text":"所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結"},{"start":106.852,"end":127.739,"text":"所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告"},{"start":129.079,"end":146.964,"text":"因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊"},{"start":149.025,"end":152.486,"text":"所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體"},{"start":165.071,"end":166.593,"text":"其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本"},{"start":180.749,"end":194.407,"text":"要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長期的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版"},{"start":197.35,"end":210.66,"text":"新聞製造業有更多的從業委員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啊我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢"},{"start":225.41,"end":245.256,"text":"後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來想要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個"},{"start":247.097,"end":275.647,"text":"平台以外生成式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有緣月時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有生成式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料"},{"start":276.707,"end":301.536,"text":"那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這一個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的"},{"start":302.497,"end":320.719,"text":"報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通"},{"start":321.44,"end":348.246,"text":"好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從"},{"start":350.586,"end":355.712,"text":"那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢"},{"start":357.291,"end":382.709,"text":"跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公布讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳珮"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1068,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（13時6分）謝謝主席，有請數發部、國科會。"],["主席：數發部黃部長還有國科會的代表。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝部長，今天是五一勞動節，所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了，從早上9點到現在大家都還在，所以我儘量守時，在6分鐘之內完成我的質詢。首先，我們今天討論的這個法案，我在數發部報告裡面第2頁看到，經濟學人雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法扶助新聞產業，結果反而造成傷害。另外，強制議價權雖然立意良善，但是如果大型社群媒體平臺等選擇停止提供新聞連結，結果受到傷害的，反而會是新聞媒體，而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重，能不能精簡簡單說明，以實務狀況，你們為什麼會這樣判斷？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有做一些研究，請次長來報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。"],["林次長宜敬：去年5月16日經濟學人雜誌說的狀況是在於，加拿大通過媒體強制議價法Online 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Act以後，結果Meta選擇不玩了，它把加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉，這是我在拜訪加拿大政府的時候，他們給我看的一個截圖，我在加拿大如果在臉書上嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞，就是統統被封鎖掉了。因為它都已經封鎖掉了，所以沒有辦法去議價，從商業行為上來講的話，Facebook已經不提供任何的新聞連結，所以對於加拿大的各個新聞媒體來講，其實狀況更糟，因為他們連流量都沒有了，原來他們只是收不到錢，現在連流量都沒有了以後，它的狀況就更糟糕了，以上報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我看到2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個「數位平台對出版業新聞媒體之影響」的調查報告，因為其實我們非常關注臺灣的媒體出版業，在全球性的衝擊之下要如何生存，而且要繼續發展。其中受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分，報紙廣告是減少八成，雜誌減少六成，其他像消費、營收統統都有六成至三成減少的衝擊。我知道這個法案你們已經持續找媒體業者以及平台業者進行好幾次跨部會的會議討論，我要特別提醒的是，平台對於媒體業的衝擊，不管是大型媒體或中小型媒體，因為多元的樣態所造成的影響，以及它的議價能力、談判籌碼都是很不一樣的。所以我希望你們的討論要持續，並且必須要考慮多元樣態，也要去瞭解實務上他們現在最受到衝擊的部分，例如小型媒體需要的比較不是廣告收入，也許是曝光、流量等等，大型媒體需要廣告收入，才能夠有更長期的發展，也從而可以讓臺灣的出版、新聞製造業有更多的從業人員提供我們新聞不斷地產出。雖然前面的羅廷瑋委員希望你們走一步算一步，但是因為我的意見不同，我尊重個別委員的發言。我認為不行，我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全，我認為我們要謹慎周全、討論完備之後，才能跨出這一步，否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對預算凍結刪除，就是走一步算一步這樣的心態，結果呢？後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除、不該凍結的，現在才來處理解凍，所以我還是希望數發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全，對於臺灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的瞭解以後，我們再來進行更充分、完備的研議……"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的建議。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為我們的目的是希望可以幫助產業。再來要瞭解的是，除了這個平臺以外，生成式AI在臺灣的發展其實也有牽涉到著作鄰接權的問題，歐盟也有提出，在27個歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法，臺灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速，我看了一下像美國有發生過，例如紐約時報在內的媒體向法院提告，認為有生成式AI的單位在沒有授權、沒有付費的情況下，使用他們的資料。現在OpenAI跟美聯社、法國世界報、英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議，當你使用它的內容，你必須要取得合法的授權。我請國科會來就是因為在臺灣，我們政府也有AI，我們的TAIDE目前針對這個內容，我之前有跟你們瞭解，我們都是合法授權使用的，目前你們是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權？"],["郭代理組主任子仙：報告委員，在TAIDE跟各個不同的團體，比如說像是新聞媒體，在洽談過程當中有不同的結果，像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得，ETtoday在上一個部分的話，他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權，下一波還會再進行不同媒體的溝通。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這部分我覺得很重要，因為我們公部門要先以身作則，即我們使用這些資料，應該都要去取得合法的授權，新聞有價，從我們公部門先開始做起。部長，我相信也不會只有TAIDE這個模式，針對在臺灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告？"],["黃部長彥男：有，我們有一個資料創新司專門在針對不管是從條例，或是從一些的辦法……"],["吳委員沛憶：未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢？"],["莊司長明芬：跟委員報告，首先，我們現在已經研擬一個臺灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款，就這種重製行為合理的使用部分，這個授權條款會跟智財局一起共同研擬，如果內容妥適之後，我們就會對外公布，讓政府機關先行，再來產業之間也可以在同意授權條款之後，我們就可以大量地釋出這些高品質的語料。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這很重要，我希望我們要先以身作則，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢。","接下來請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}}