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891.581, \"end\": 891.801, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 891.801, \"end\": 892.941, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 892.941, \"end\": 893.161, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 893.161, \"end\": 893.842, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 893.842, \"end\": 893.962, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 893.962, \"end\": 894.142, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 894.142, \"end\": 894.162, \"score\": 0.018}]}, {\"start\": 896.345, \"end\": 909.375, \"text\": \"我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 896.345, \"end\": 896.525, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 896.525, \"end\": 896.725, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 896.725, \"end\": 897.146, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 897.146, \"end\": 897.306, \"score\": 0.883}, 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{\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 930.244, \"end\": 930.284, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 930.284, \"end\": 930.424, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 930.424, \"end\": 930.624, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 930.624, \"end\": 930.824, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 930.824, \"end\": 931.004, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 931.004, \"end\": 931.024, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}]}, {\"start\": 934.178, \"end\": 954.37, \"text\": \"我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 934.178, \"end\": 934.778, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 934.778, \"end\": 935.539, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"官\", 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\"end\": 1040.848, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1040.848, \"end\": 1040.968, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1040.968, \"end\": 1041.088, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1041.088, \"end\": 1041.268, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"批\", \"start\": 1041.268, \"end\": 1041.629, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 1041.629, \"end\": 1041.649, \"score\": 0.56}]}, {\"start\": 1042.77, \"end\": 1054.431, \"text\": \"司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 1042.77, \"end\": 1042.91, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1042.91, \"end\": 1043.07, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1043.07, \"end\": 1043.671, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1043.671, \"end\": 1044.032, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1044.032, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1049.061, \"end\": 1050.424, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1050.424, \"end\": 1051.245, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"洩\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 1051.245, \"end\": 1051.566, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1051.566, \"end\": 1051.907, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1051.907, \"end\": 1052.087, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1052.087, \"end\": 1052.247, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 1052.247, \"end\": 1052.427, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 1052.427, \"end\": 1052.908, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 1052.908, \"end\": 1053.109, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1053.109, \"end\": 1053.269, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1053.269, \"end\": 1053.61, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1053.61, \"end\": 1053.85, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1053.85, \"end\": 1053.99, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1053.99, \"end\": 1054.091, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1054.091, \"end\": 1054.411, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1054.411, \"end\": 1054.431, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 1056.108, \"end\": 1073.06, \"text\": \"這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1056.108, \"end\": 1056.589, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1056.589, \"end\": 1057.069, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"廣\"}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 1057.069, \"end\": 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\"這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1076.287, \"end\": 1076.427, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 1076.427, \"end\": 1076.507, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1076.507, \"end\": 1076.768, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1076.768, \"end\": 1077.168, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1077.168, \"end\": 1077.328, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1077.328, \"end\": 1078.809, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 1078.809, \"end\": 1078.989, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 1078.989, \"end\": 1080.15, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1080.15, \"end\": 1080.39, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 1080.39, \"end\": 1080.53, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 1080.53, \"end\": 1080.851, 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\"end\": 1088.376, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1088.376, \"end\": 1088.476, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1088.476, \"end\": 1088.697, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 1088.697, \"end\": 1088.877, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1088.877, \"end\": 1090.058, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1090.058, \"end\": 1090.238, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 1090.238, \"end\": 1090.438, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1090.438, \"end\": 1090.958, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1090.958, \"end\": 1091.138, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1091.138, \"end\": 1092.079, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1092.079, \"end\": 1092.179, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1092.179, \"end\": 1092.319, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 1092.319, \"end\": 1092.479, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1092.479, \"end\": 1092.499, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 1093.956, \"end\": 1115.608, \"text\": \"我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1093.956, \"end\": 1094.716, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1094.716, \"end\": 1094.877, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1094.877, \"end\": 1095.117, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1095.117, \"end\": 1095.257, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1095.257, \"end\": 1095.377, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 1095.377, \"end\": 1096.077, \"score\": 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\"府\", \"start\": 1099.819, \"end\": 1100.42, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1100.42, \"end\": 1100.58, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"尾\", \"start\": 1100.58, \"end\": 1100.76, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 1100.76, \"end\": 1102.021, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1102.021, \"end\": 1102.201, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1102.201, \"end\": 1102.401, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1102.401, \"end\": 1102.701, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1102.701, \"end\": 1102.861, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1102.861, \"end\": 1103.021, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1103.021, \"end\": 1103.221, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1103.221, \"end\": 1104.002, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1110.005, \"end\": 1110.305, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1110.305, \"end\": 1110.445, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 1110.445, \"end\": 1110.626, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1110.626, \"end\": 1110.846, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1110.846, \"end\": 1111.006, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1111.006, \"end\": 1111.146, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 1111.146, \"end\": 1111.326, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1111.326, \"end\": 1111.506, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 1111.506, \"end\": 1111.726, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1111.726, \"end\": 1112.387, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1112.387, \"end\": 1112.687, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1112.687, \"end\": 1112.947, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1112.947, \"end\": 1113.087, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1113.087, \"end\": 1113.267, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1113.267, \"end\": 1113.587, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1113.587, \"end\": 1113.887, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1113.887, \"end\": 1115.128, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 1115.128, \"end\": 1115.348, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1115.348, \"end\": 1115.448, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1115.448, \"end\": 1115.588, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 1115.588, \"end\": 1115.608, \"score\": 0.07}, {\"word\": \"議\"}]}, {\"start\": 1117.049, \"end\": 1127.924, \"text\": \"會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 1117.049, \"end\": 1117.53, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1117.53, \"end\": 1117.69, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1117.69, \"end\": 1117.83, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1117.83, \"end\": 1118.051, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1118.051, \"end\": 1118.291, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 1118.291, \"end\": 1118.471, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1118.471, \"end\": 1118.832, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1118.832, \"end\": 1118.992, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1118.992, \"end\": 1119.132, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 1119.132, \"end\": 1120.554, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1120.554, \"end\": 1120.914, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1120.914, \"end\": 1121.095, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1121.095, \"end\": 1121.715, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1121.715, \"end\": 1121.816, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1121.816, \"end\": 1121.936, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1121.936, \"end\": 1122.276, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 1122.276, \"end\": 1122.937, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1122.937, \"end\": 1123.578, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1123.578, \"end\": 1123.698, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1123.698, \"end\": 1123.918, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1123.918, \"end\": 1124.179, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 1124.179, \"end\": 1124.379, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1124.379, \"end\": 1124.499, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1124.499, \"end\": 1125.08, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1125.08, \"end\": 1125.26, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1125.26, \"end\": 1125.36, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1125.36, \"end\": 1125.5, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1125.5, \"end\": 1125.821, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1125.821, \"end\": 1126.001, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1126.001, \"end\": 1126.141, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1126.141, \"end\": 1126.281, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1126.281, \"end\": 1126.422, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1126.422, \"end\": 1126.602, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1126.602, \"end\": 1126.922, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1126.922, \"end\": 1127.683, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1127.683, \"end\": 1127.783, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1127.783, \"end\": 1127.904, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1127.904, \"end\": 1127.924, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}]}, {\"start\": 1129.734, \"end\": 1158.095, \"text\": \"洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"洩\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 1129.734, \"end\": 1130.095, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1130.095, \"end\": 1131.155, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1131.155, \"end\": 1131.415, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 1131.415, \"end\": 1131.956, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"洩\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 1131.956, \"end\": 1132.236, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 1132.236, \"end\": 1133.017, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 1157.514, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1157.514, \"end\": 1157.814, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1157.814, \"end\": 1157.934, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1157.934, \"end\": 1158.075, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1158.075, \"end\": 1158.095, \"score\": 0.312}]}, {\"start\": 1159.298, \"end\": 1186.036, \"text\": \"還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1159.298, \"end\": 1159.438, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1159.438, \"end\": 1159.558, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1159.558, \"end\": 1159.678, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1159.678, \"end\": 1159.798, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 1159.798, \"end\": 1160.059, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"楚\", 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00:00:13,975\n謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長\n\n2\n00:00:30,576 --> 00:00:47,614\n各位好,時間的關係不亦問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的\n\n3\n00:00:49,130 --> 00:01:17,964\n那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦\n\n4\n00:01:19,227 --> 00:01:25,281\n目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子,向上溯源辦,辦到什麼地方?\n\n5\n00:01:31,405 --> 00:01:47,791\n向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容他就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個態度我想這個國安的這些國安的犯罪這部分對我們\n\n6\n00:01:49,893 --> 00:02:08,167\n這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上授權向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係第一個\n\n7\n00:02:09,528 --> 00:02:34,573\n部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦\n\n8\n00:02:39,965 --> 00:03:03,277\n這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿\n\n9\n00:03:07,117 --> 00:03:26,555\n這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦\n\n10\n00:03:28,144 --> 00:03:51,101\n沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦\n\n11\n00:03:52,793 --> 00:04:13,667\n因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到\n\n12\n00:04:14,528 --> 00:04:37,632\n何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下\n\n13\n00:04:43,732 --> 00:04:45,347\n林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛\n\n14\n00:04:46,578 --> 00:05:15,169\n跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核\n\n15\n00:05:16,785 --> 00:05:43,806\n呃如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃聘用人員\n\n16\n00:05:45,047 --> 00:06:04,620\n擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔\n\n17\n00:06:05,521 --> 00:06:31,052\n今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎\n\n18\n00:06:32,476 --> 00:07:00,567\n再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦\n\n19\n00:07:02,248 --> 00:07:27,801\n哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎\n\n20\n00:07:29,142 --> 00:07:41,528\n這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛\n\n21\n00:07:43,188 --> 00:08:10,783\n今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎\n\n22\n00:08:12,797 --> 00:08:34,748\n誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊\n\n23\n00:08:42,864 --> 00:09:03,778\n今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核\n\n24\n00:09:05,452 --> 00:09:26,843\n據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛\n\n25\n00:09:32,046 --> 00:09:58,333\n一般現在我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣辦得非常緊結果跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊\n\n26\n00:09:59,349 --> 00:10:09,497\n我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來請部長\n\n27\n00:10:31,135 --> 00:10:52,393\n我上次啊問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼吳尚宇的事情總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天總統府就把他解職了誰洩密\n\n28\n00:10:55,954 --> 00:11:22,313\n這個你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道\n\n29\n00:11:23,697 --> 00:11:52,632\n通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查\n\n30\n00:11:54,046 --> 00:12:19,181\n這種事情不用查不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪\n\n31\n00:12:21,001 --> 00:12:41,512\n如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎\n\n32\n00:12:46,045 --> 00:13:07,887\n偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定沒有通報的規定不能通報嘛不能通報嘛對吧但是什麼現在又有但是囉\n\n33\n00:13:09,656 --> 00:13:31,256\n到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊\n\n34\n00:13:32,148 --> 00:13:54,350\n你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛\n\n35\n00:13:56,738 --> 00:14:22,810\n但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題\n\n36\n00:14:25,011 --> 00:14:54,162\n沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院\n\n37\n00:14:56,345 --> 00:15:09,375\n我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n\n38\n00:15:11,118 --> 00:15:31,024\n我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n\n39\n00:15:34,178 --> 00:15:54,370\n我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是沒錯好第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題\n\n40\n00:15:56,176 --> 00:16:20,603\n這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場\n\n41\n00:16:21,892 --> 00:16:29,452\n我們認為我們是依在在法定行列適當的量刑是所以嘛在現行法下面你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎\n\n42\n00:16:32,906 --> 00:16:52,205\n所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你\n\n43\n00:16:53,254 --> 00:17:21,649\n你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛\n\n44\n00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:34,431\n司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎\n\n45\n00:17:36,108 --> 00:17:53,060\n這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久\n\n46\n00:17:56,287 --> 00:18:12,499\n這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題\n\n47\n00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:35,608\n我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議\n\n48\n00:18:37,049 --> 00:18:47,924\n會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為\n\n49\n00:18:49,734 --> 00:19:18,095\n洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有\n\n50\n00:19:19,298 --> 00:19:46,036\n還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊\n\n51\n00:19:46,716 --> 00:20:13,456\n所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰\n\n52\n00:20:15,465 --> 00:20:24,872\n這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5929\t13975\t謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長\n30576\t47614\t各位好,時間的關係不亦問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的\n49130\t77964\t那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦\n79227\t85281\t目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子,向上溯源辦,辦到什麼地方?\n91405\t107791\t向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容他就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個態度我想這個國安的這些國安的犯罪這部分對我們\n109893\t128167\t這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上授權 向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係 第一個\n129528\t154573\t部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦\n159965\t183277\t這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿\n187117\t206555\t這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦\n208144\t231101\t沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦\n232793\t253667\t因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到\n254528\t277632\t何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下\n283732\t285347\t林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛\n286578\t315169\t跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核\n316785\t343806\t呃 如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員\n345047\t364620\t擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔\n365521\t391052\t今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎\n392476\t420567\t再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦\n422248\t447801\t哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎\n449142\t461528\t這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛\n463188\t490783\t今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做 該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎\n492797\t514748\t誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊\n522864\t543778\t今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核\n545452\t566843\t據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛\n572046\t598333\t一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊\n599349\t609497\t我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長\n631135\t652393\t我上次啊 問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼 吳尚宇的事情 總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天 總統府就把他解職了 誰洩密\n655954\t682313\t這個 你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道\n683697\t712632\t通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查\n714046\t739181\t這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪\n741001\t761512\t如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎\n766045\t787887\t偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是什麼 現在又有但是囉\n789656\t811256\t到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊\n812148\t834350\t你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛\n836738\t862810\t但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題\n865011\t894162\t沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院\n896345\t909375\t我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n911118\t931024\t我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n934178\t954370\t我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題\n956176\t980603\t這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場\n981892\t989452\t我們認為我們是依在在法定行列 適當的量刑是 所以嘛在現行法下面 你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎\n992906\t1012205\t所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你\n1013254\t1041649\t你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛\n1042770\t1054431\t司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎\n1056108\t1073060\t這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久\n1076287\t1092499\t這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題\n1093956\t1115608\t我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議\n1117049\t1127924\t會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為\n1129734\t1158095\t洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有\n1159298\t1186036\t還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊\n1186716\t1213456\t所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰\n1215465\t1224872\t這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長\n各位好,時間的關係不亦問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的\n那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦\n目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子,向上溯源辦,辦到什麼地方?\n向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容他就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個態度我想這個國安的這些國安的犯罪這部分對我們\n這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上授權 向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係 第一個\n部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦\n這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿\n這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦\n沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦\n因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到\n何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下\n林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛\n跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核\n呃 如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員\n擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔\n今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎\n再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦\n哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎\n這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛\n今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做 該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎\n誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊\n今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核\n據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛\n一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊\n我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長\n我上次啊 問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼 吳尚宇的事情 總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天 總統府就把他解職了 誰洩密\n這個 你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道\n通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查\n這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪\n如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎\n偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是什麼 現在又有但是囉\n到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊\n你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛\n但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題\n沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院\n我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題\n這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場\n我們認為我們是依在在法定行列 適當的量刑是 所以嘛在現行法下面 你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎\n所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你\n你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛\n司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎\n這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久\n這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題\n我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議\n會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為\n洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有\n還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊\n所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰\n這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.929 --> 00:13.975\n謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長\n\n00:30.576 --> 00:47.614\n各位好,時間的關係不亦問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的\n\n00:49.130 --> 01:17.964\n那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦\n\n01:19.227 --> 01:25.281\n目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子,向上溯源辦,辦到什麼地方?\n\n01:31.405 --> 01:47.791\n向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容他就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個態度我想這個國安的這些國安的犯罪這部分對我們\n\n01:49.893 --> 02:08.167\n這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上授權向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係第一個\n\n02:09.528 --> 02:34.573\n部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦\n\n02:39.965 --> 03:03.277\n這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿\n\n03:07.117 --> 03:26.555\n這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦\n\n03:28.144 --> 03:51.101\n沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦\n\n03:52.793 --> 04:13.667\n因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到\n\n04:14.528 --> 04:37.632\n何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下\n\n04:43.732 --> 04:45.347\n林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛\n\n04:46.578 --> 05:15.169\n跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核\n\n05:16.785 --> 05:43.806\n呃如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃聘用人員\n\n05:45.047 --> 06:04.620\n擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔\n\n06:05.521 --> 06:31.052\n今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎\n\n06:32.476 --> 07:00.567\n再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦\n\n07:02.248 --> 07:27.801\n哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎\n\n07:29.142 --> 07:41.528\n這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛\n\n07:43.188 --> 08:10.783\n今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎\n\n08:12.797 --> 08:34.748\n誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊\n\n08:42.864 --> 09:03.778\n今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核\n\n09:05.452 --> 09:26.843\n據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛\n\n09:32.046 --> 09:58.333\n一般現在我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣辦得非常緊結果跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊\n\n09:59.349 --> 10:09.497\n我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來請部長\n\n10:31.135 --> 10:52.393\n我上次啊問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼吳尚宇的事情總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天總統府就把他解職了誰洩密\n\n10:55.954 --> 11:22.313\n這個你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道\n\n11:23.697 --> 11:52.632\n通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查\n\n11:54.046 --> 12:19.181\n這種事情不用查不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪\n\n12:21.001 --> 12:41.512\n如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎\n\n12:46.045 --> 13:07.887\n偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定沒有通報的規定不能通報嘛不能通報嘛對吧但是什麼現在又有但是囉\n\n13:09.656 --> 13:31.256\n到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊\n\n13:32.148 --> 13:54.350\n你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛\n\n13:56.738 --> 14:22.810\n但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題\n\n14:25.011 --> 14:54.162\n沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院\n\n14:56.345 --> 15:09.375\n我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n\n15:11.118 --> 15:31.024\n我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業\n\n15:34.178 --> 15:54.370\n我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是沒錯好第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題\n\n15:56.176 --> 16:20.603\n這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場\n\n16:21.892 --> 16:29.452\n我們認為我們是依在在法定行列適當的量刑是所以嘛在現行法下面你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎\n\n16:32.906 --> 16:52.205\n所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你\n\n16:53.254 --> 17:21.649\n你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛\n\n17:22.770 --> 17:34.431\n司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎\n\n17:36.108 --> 17:53.060\n這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久\n\n17:56.287 --> 18:12.499\n這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題\n\n18:13.956 --> 18:35.608\n我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議\n\n18:37.049 --> 18:47.924\n會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為\n\n18:49.734 --> 19:18.095\n洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有\n\n19:19.298 --> 19:46.036\n還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊\n\n19:46.716 --> 20:13.456\n所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰\n\n20:15.465 --> 20:24.872\n這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.929,"end":13.975,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長"},{"start":30.576,"end":47.614,"text":"各位好,時間的關係不亦問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的"},{"start":49.13,"end":77.964,"text":"那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦"},{"start":79.227,"end":85.281,"text":"目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子,向上溯源辦,辦到什麼地方?"},{"start":91.405,"end":107.791,"text":"向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容他就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個態度我想這個國安的這些國安的犯罪這部分對我們"},{"start":109.893,"end":128.167,"text":"這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上授權 向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係 第一個"},{"start":129.528,"end":154.573,"text":"部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦"},{"start":159.965,"end":183.277,"text":"這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿"},{"start":187.117,"end":206.555,"text":"這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦"},{"start":208.144,"end":231.101,"text":"沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦"},{"start":232.793,"end":253.667,"text":"因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到"},{"start":254.528,"end":277.632,"text":"何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下"},{"start":283.732,"end":285.347,"text":"林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛"},{"start":286.578,"end":315.169,"text":"跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核"},{"start":316.785,"end":343.806,"text":"呃 如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員"},{"start":345.047,"end":364.62,"text":"擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔"},{"start":365.521,"end":391.052,"text":"今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎"},{"start":392.476,"end":420.567,"text":"再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦"},{"start":422.248,"end":447.801,"text":"哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎"},{"start":449.142,"end":461.528,"text":"這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛"},{"start":463.188,"end":490.783,"text":"今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做 該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎"},{"start":492.797,"end":514.748,"text":"誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊"},{"start":522.864,"end":543.778,"text":"今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核"},{"start":545.452,"end":566.843,"text":"據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛"},{"start":572.046,"end":598.333,"text":"一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊"},{"start":599.349,"end":609.497,"text":"我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長"},{"start":631.135,"end":652.393,"text":"我上次啊 問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼 吳尚宇的事情 總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天 總統府就把他解職了 誰洩密"},{"start":655.954,"end":682.313,"text":"這個 你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道"},{"start":683.697,"end":712.632,"text":"通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查"},{"start":714.046,"end":739.181,"text":"這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪"},{"start":741.001,"end":761.512,"text":"如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎"},{"start":766.045,"end":787.887,"text":"偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是什麼 現在又有但是囉"},{"start":789.656,"end":811.256,"text":"到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊"},{"start":812.148,"end":834.35,"text":"你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛"},{"start":836.738,"end":862.81,"text":"但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題"},{"start":865.011,"end":894.162,"text":"沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院"},{"start":896.345,"end":909.375,"text":"我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業"},{"start":911.118,"end":931.024,"text":"我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業"},{"start":934.178,"end":954.37,"text":"我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題"},{"start":956.176,"end":980.603,"text":"這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場"},{"start":981.892,"end":989.452,"text":"我們認為我們是依在在法定行列 適當的量刑是 所以嘛在現行法下面 你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎"},{"start":992.906,"end":1012.205,"text":"所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你"},{"start":1013.254,"end":1041.649,"text":"你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛"},{"start":1042.77,"end":1054.431,"text":"司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎"},{"start":1056.108,"end":1073.06,"text":"這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久"},{"start":1076.287,"end":1092.499,"text":"這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題"},{"start":1093.956,"end":1115.608,"text":"我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議"},{"start":1117.049,"end":1127.924,"text":"會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為"},{"start":1129.734,"end":1158.095,"text":"洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有"},{"start":1159.298,"end":1186.036,"text":"還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊"},{"start":1186.716,"end":1213.456,"text":"所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰"},{"start":1215.465,"end":1224.872,"text":"這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長，以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長。各位好。因為時間的關係，我就不一一問候。今天召委安排了有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告，其中有幾件事情是今天這個報告要特別加以檢討的，但是很遺憾的，不管是總統府還是國安會，兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席司法及法制委員會，我相信大家看在眼裡，心中都有一定的評價，但我不要浪費時間，直接往下講。","首先請教法務部，法務部在今天提出的書面報告第3頁最下面寫到會「向上溯源嚴辦」，目前針對這個橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子，向上溯源嚴辦是辦到什麼地方了？因為「向上溯源嚴辦」是你的書面報告寫的內容，那就不要講空話，這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於通案的一個態度，我想違反國安犯罪的這個部分對我們國防及國家安全影響很大，但是現在都在個案偵辦中，我們的要求就是檢察機關在辦理國安案件的時候一定要向上溯源、向下刨根，這個個案掌握到多少……"],["黃委員國昌：所以剛剛部長講的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我沒辦法干涉、介入、指導。"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有關係啦！第一個，部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦，這是法務部基本的立場，至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情，部長管不到，但基本上的立場就是這個樣子嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個部分，在府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面，其中一個關鍵人物是黃取榮，就黃取榮的部分，目前是以為中國發展組織在偵辦，還是單純用洩密在偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是個案，我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。第二個部分，就吳尚雨的部分，是為中共發展組織在偵辦，還是單純洩密在偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分也還是個案，檢察官在偵辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：何仁傑的部分呢？一樣嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道這個案子，臺北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿，知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：您不清楚嘛。這個案子從一開始到現在，只有何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發一次新聞稿，其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿，一句解釋的話都沒有。針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿，倒是把罪名都寫出來了，只有洩密，沒有為中共發展組織，但今天部長在這邊講的話，我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去。如果部裡面的基本政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦，就不要搞鋸箭法，什麼叫搞鋸箭法？為中共發展組織不敢辦，因為涉及的人太多了，因為涉及的人太多了，單純鋸箭了以後辦洩密。是不是有這樣的狀況，我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度，等到起訴了以後，我們進一步針對具體內容加以檢驗。我上次提到，何仁傑基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員，上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核，那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理，這是在4月21號的事情，現在外交部處理的進度是什麼？可不可以給大家說明一下？林佳龍說那天就要有結果。"],["呂處長世壹：跟委員報告，關於何仁傑的部分，107年到我們外交部任職的時候，他只有進行一般的安全查核……"],["黃委員國昌：這個上次講過了。"],["呂處長世壹：對。目前的話、如果是部裡面現任同仁的話，我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法，裡面有規範現在有哪些人必須要查核。"],["黃委員國昌：何仁傑要不要做特殊安全查核？"],["呂處長世壹：如果……"],["黃委員國昌：不要說如果，我四月二十幾號就問過的問題了……"],["呂處長世壹：沒有，現在……"],["黃委員國昌：林佳龍也說要回去處理，本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案，我等了半天，等不到外交部的說明，我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是隨便說說的，所以我今天才特別提出來。不要浪費時間，針對問題回答啦。"],["呂處長世壹：依照現在的規定，如果是用聘用人員擔任所謂秘書的話，目前還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說，何仁傑依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：對。因為當時……"],["黃委員國昌：他一開始進入國安會的時候，為什麼要做特殊安全查核，為什麼轉到外交部的時候就不用做特殊安全查核？今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的，那天林佳龍承認，他應該要辦特殊安全查核，但今天外交部似乎改口，說他是聘用，所以不用辦特殊安全查核，能夠接觸到部長室裡面這麼機敏、機密傳真的人，竟然不用辦特殊安全查核，這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：再跟委員報告一下，依照當時何仁傑107年進到外交部的時候，外交部當時是用聘用人員來進用他，當時列在特殊查核一覽表的名單就沒有把他列進去，所以當時是不用。如果是現在的話，因為行政院已經有公開宣示了，以後處理比較機敏業務的話……"],["黃委員國昌：我問比較核心關鍵的問題，哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的，是不是行政機關決定的？"],["呂處長世壹：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在公務人員任用法完全授權給行政機關決定嘛？"],["呂處長世壹：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那行政機關怎麼會做這麼荒謬的決定，明明可以接觸機敏資訊的，因為他是部長帶來的人，他是機要，然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核，這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：這個部分以後我們會來補強。"],["黃委員國昌：對，等到出事了以後，現在才說以後要補強，你現在的說明是什麼？責任就不用追究了，當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛。今天外交部說明的立場，不就是這個樣子嗎？但大家看不下去，立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核，結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣，所以就可以不用做，要不要做也是你們決定的，該做沒有做，該規範沒有規範，出現了國家安全的重大漏洞，這件事情不需要有人負責嗎？這件事情不需要有人負責嗎？誰要負責任？是吳釗燮要負責任嗎？人躲起來了，連來都不敢來，誰要負責任？立法者都充分授權給你們，授權給你們的結果是什麼？散漫！散漫！該做的沒有做，事情就這麼簡單。","來，人總，外交部今天翻供，林佳龍當初說的應該做卻沒有做，結果到今天真相大白，按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做。來，第二個，吳尚雨從副總統時期就任用了，到總統時期還是繼續任用，他要不要做特殊安全查核？"],["李處長花書：據了解吳尚雨也是聘用人員。跟委員報告，因為特查……"],["黃委員國昌：吳尚雨是聘用人員，所以也不用做特殊安全查核，是這樣嗎？"],["李處長花書：因為特查辦法是任用法的授權命令，不是依照任用法進用的人員，目前不在那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內，那……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["李處長花書：是，當然也跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：這個法規上面的問題授權給你們，法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的？因為這很離譜嘛，我最近接到一堆投訴，一般現在的公務人員說，辦他們的查核的時候，辦得把他們當賊一樣，辦得非常緊，結果跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的，真正是機要，真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦，所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊。我剛剛講得很清楚了，都是授權給你們行政機關做，結果現在沒有做，該辦沒有辦，出了事沒有人要負責。我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎？怎麼會處理成這個樣子，處理得七零八落，讓人民看不下去。","再下一個，來，請部長。我上次問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題，你剛剛說偵辦當中的資訊檢察官不會洩漏，你們都不會知道，那很奇怪啊，為什麼吳尚雨的事情總統府會知道，在拘提吳尚雨前一天，總統府就把他解職了，誰洩密？你們有依法通報總統府嗎？上次調查局局長否認，他說沒有通報總統府。"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵辦吳尚雨這件事，我是看報紙才知道的。"],["黃委員國昌：你完全毫無所悉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我毫無所悉。"],["黃委員國昌：北檢有沒有通報總統府？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不可能通報。"],["黃委員國昌：不可能通報，所以現在總統府是通靈喔？在發動拘提前一天就知道要把吳尚雨解除職務，沒有人通報的話，總統府怎麼知道？通靈嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個總統不可能知道，這個不通報。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，所以問題就來了嘛，問題就來了嘛。押了兩個人以後，要辦吳尚雨之前，前一天總統府把他解除職務，我非常納悶，總統府怎麼知道吳尚雨要出事了，結果在前一天把他解除職務。身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？還是不用去查，這種事情不用查、不要查，總統府怎麼會知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：總統府不可能知道啊。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我就問你嘛，如果不知道的話，怎麼會在發動拘提前一天把他解除職務，很巧，心有靈犀還是通靈？作為一個曾經偵辦過犯罪的檢察官，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？我是覺得超級奇怪。如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報，怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務？我們從法律層面上來講，這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎？要嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通報啊。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是有通報，這是事實層面的問題，現在我問的是法規範層面的問題，依法要通報總統府嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查中的個案本來就是由檢察官依法偵辦嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以依法要通報總統府嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通報的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：依照法律的規定，沒有通報的規定，不能通報嘛，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是……"],["黃委員國昌：但是什麼？現在又有但是了，到底有通報、沒有通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個主要是偵查不公開的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以到底有沒有通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通報。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以現在問題就來了，我們繞來繞去現在出現了一個大謎團，法務部部長堅稱沒有通報，我相信你沒通報，因為你說你不知道。北檢有沒有通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢不可能會通報。"],["黃委員國昌：你有去查嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個怎麼可能會通報呢？"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說你都不用去問，北檢絕對不會通報，現在問題還是沒解決嘛！所以總統府是通靈還是心有靈犀？他們怎麼會知道？要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了、就把他給解除職務，你不知道嘛！你不知道答案是什麼嘛！但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題？我認為這是一個值得追究的問題，所以我今天公開告發，請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的？剛好前一天把他解除職務，如果有人通報的話，有沒有洩密罪的問題？沒關係，你繼續堅稱沒有人通報，現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題，如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題？有吧？有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪，就是……"],["黃委員國昌：不敢回答哦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我有什麼不敢回答，這就依法認定嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就依法認定。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我就說你不敢回答嘛。","來，下一個司法院。我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業？"],["李廳長釱任：目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員進行專業訓練。"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照司法院的觀點，現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業？"],["李廳長釱任：我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關規劃。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解，你們都有規劃，白紙黑字大家都看到了。"],["李廳長釱任：從109年開始……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在問司法院的事情是，按照你們自己設置國安軍事專庭以後，到今天為止，你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業？"],["李廳長釱任：我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的。"],["黃委員國昌：應該是夠的嘛，所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件，這個是司法院現在的立場。"],["李廳長釱任：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個，司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑，有沒有判刑過輕的問題？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分，我們在歷次的說明已經說明過，並沒有判刑過輕的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有判刑過輕的問題。"],["李廳長釱任：這個涉及到法定刑，那是法律修正的問題，所以目前判起來相關，可以看到……"],["黃委員國昌：我們把問題釐清。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題，至於要不要判得更重，這是立法者的決定，我這樣說是不是司法院的立場？"],["李廳長釱任：我們認為我們是在法定刑內適當的量刑。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以在現行法下面你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嘛，對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嘛？"],["李廳長釱任：對，我們尊重大院的職權。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個問題請教部長，部長，我上次有請教過你，洩密給中國跟洩密給外國的法定刑應該要區別對待，也就是洩密給中國要提高刑度這件事情，我上次請教你，你沒有表達意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：要廣納意見嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候，次長說他個人的意見是贊成，從上次到現在，法務部廣納各界社會意見以後，現在的決定是什麼？贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑？剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講，司法院自己認為……我沒有說司法院講的是對的，社會上有很多批評，司法院認為在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題，接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題。現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情，法務部有立場了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為還是廣納意見，因為國家機密保護法第三十二條、第三十三條本來就有加重的規定。當然委員有提到……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你認為現在的規定夠了，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是外國那個……但夠不夠的話，我們再廣納社會的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，你們還要廣納社會的意見，還要廣納多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個上次委員講的是四月二十幾號的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我現在就說你們要廣納多久？因為對於你來講，這可能是一個新的問題，但對於民進黨政府來講，這絕對不是新的問題，我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上，但是很奇怪，民進黨政府從頭到尾反對，行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對。到目前為止，各個委員所提出來的國家安全法修正草案，你們在法務部的報告裡面說會詳加研議，會在研議了以後表示法務部的意見，書面報告是這樣寫的，沒有錯吧？好，那你們看完了民進黨委員所提的提案，有沒有認為洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就是加重處罰的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：我說國家安全法。請你看國家安全法好不好？你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法，現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛！針對國家安全法，現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案，有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文？有還是沒有？還是不是很清楚，那些條文還沒有細看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是第二條、第七條的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道，沒有區分啊！現在國家安全法第二條第二款、第三款都沒有區分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：洩密當然是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的洩密行為有處罰的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：請你針對問題回答，你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議，我相信你的話，所以我相信你研議過了，我相信提了什麼條文你很熟，要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是隨便說說的嗎？針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文，有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有嘛！這樣問題就清楚了，勇敢講嘛！怕什麼？我具體跟部長講，我提案的內容是洩密給中國加重處罰，這個是社會的期待、這是人民的憤怒、這是你們提的這一堆報告所講的核心問題，碰都不敢碰！"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員。我們請林倩綺委員先代理主席。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：好，我們請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}