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543.545, \"text\": \"結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 522.268, \"end\": 522.408, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 522.408, \"end\": 523.009, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 523.009, \"end\": 523.529, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 523.529, \"end\": 523.689, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 523.689, \"end\": 523.829, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 523.829, \"end\": 523.99, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 523.99, \"end\": 524.23, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 524.23, \"end\": 524.81, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 524.81, \"end\": 524.93, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 524.93, 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\"好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1075.538, \"end\": 1076.178, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1076.178, \"end\": 1076.298, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1076.298, \"end\": 1076.418, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1076.418, \"end\": 1076.518, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1076.518, \"end\": 1076.979, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1076.979, \"end\": 1077.179, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 1077.179, \"end\": 1077.299, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1077.299, \"end\": 1077.619, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1077.619, \"end\": 1077.779, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1077.779, \"end\": 1077.999, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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\"我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1276.308, \"end\": 1276.488, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1276.488, \"end\": 1276.608, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1276.608, \"end\": 1276.829, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1276.829, \"end\": 1277.35, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1277.35, \"end\": 1277.59, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1277.59, \"end\": 1277.67, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1277.67, \"end\": 1278.111, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1278.111, \"end\": 1278.511, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 1278.511, \"end\": 1278.651, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1278.651, \"end\": 1278.892, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1278.892, 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00:01:20,952\n當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情\n\n5\n00:01:22,748 --> 00:01:51,323\n我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有拿幾種部長知道嗎\n\n6\n00:01:54,087 --> 00:02:13,156\n好沒關係部長請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押另案扣押還有非附屬於搜索的扣押好那我想請教部長回到上一頁我想請教部長宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說\n\n7\n00:02:15,798 --> 00:02:42,479\n發現經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以的不是他屬於哪一種扣押並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定這個還沒有有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛\n\n8\n00:02:43,664 --> 00:03:05,231\n這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關\n\n9\n00:03:06,711 --> 00:03:32,723\n請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做並同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很隆重的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號\n\n10\n00:03:34,484 --> 00:03:57,915\n對所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索當時這個搜索現場的授文人授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧局長\n\n11\n00:04:00,416 --> 00:04:24,071\n有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂\n\n12\n00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:52,112\n那我今天在好那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天\n\n13\n00:04:53,703 --> 00:05:10,884\n今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎這個局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長\n\n14\n00:05:12,426 --> 00:05:35,083\n我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先待會兒釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛\n\n15\n00:05:35,723 --> 00:05:54,630\n而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為說這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛\n\n16\n00:06:03,633 --> 00:06:26,323\n第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣\n\n17\n00:06:27,954 --> 00:06:52,319\n這個釐清了嘛這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋部長部長我尊重你是前輩但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼我就說我要回家看\n\n18\n00:06:53,908 --> 00:07:18,581\n是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嗎是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢部長我聽不懂欸\n\n19\n00:07:20,256 --> 00:07:45,228\n扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎\n\n20\n00:07:46,568 --> 00:07:58,686\n對不對哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西\n\n21\n00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:20,607\n這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清那我們就報告部長報告部長如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣要扣什麼就扣什麼\n\n22\n00:08:21,107 --> 00:08:40,828\n尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了\n\n23\n00:08:42,268 --> 00:09:03,545\n結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉\n\n24\n00:09:04,626 --> 00:09:20,339\n那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有\n\n25\n00:09:21,414 --> 00:09:44,143\n如果沒有的話就便宜措施打開就發還嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發還\n\n26\n00:09:45,933 --> 00:10:11,904\n我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把他爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨\n\n27\n00:10:12,624 --> 00:10:32,041\n說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把他還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼他不是搜索扣押物喔\n\n28\n00:10:34,946 --> 00:10:49,471\n那今天如果現場的工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫寫了什麼然後看完之後我看看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁這個訴訟法112112條齁\n\n29\n00:11:03,237 --> 00:11:18,755\n因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來指引搜索那122條對第三人第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押置物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人\n\n30\n00:11:21,377 --> 00:11:42,084\n這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內亂外犯罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國司法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個\n\n31\n00:11:46,263 --> 00:12:03,824\n那個一三一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嘛凡是可為證據或得莫受當然都得依法扣押之嘛這整次進行搜索整次後來是算是在懲罰法院的問題而已嘛今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後\n\n32\n00:12:04,927 --> 00:12:28,022\n調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說\n\n33\n00:12:36,707 --> 00:12:51,368\n最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們再這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受\n\n34\n00:12:53,257 --> 00:13:19,717\n執行機關司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的\n\n35\n00:13:21,007 --> 00:13:47,896\n然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義\n\n36\n00:13:49,176 --> 00:14:16,499\n因為陳俊正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機\n\n37\n00:14:18,726 --> 00:14:21,274\n士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任\n\n38\n00:14:23,083 --> 00:14:49,291\n他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候\n\n39\n00:14:50,231 --> 00:15:09,242\n他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解\n\n40\n00:15:11,993 --> 00:15:18,636\n局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下你們檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼\n\n41\n00:15:32,567 --> 00:15:56,434\n最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書\n\n42\n00:15:57,754 --> 00:16:14,874\n跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍\n\n43\n00:16:16,892 --> 00:16:40,745\n廉政工作範圍嗎跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西我剛剛請教一下\n\n44\n00:16:46,772 --> 00:16:57,230\n那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係這邊講不出來那沒有關係好那\n\n45\n00:17:01,164 --> 00:17:27,424\n我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案\n\n46\n00:17:28,965 --> 00:17:54,736\n各佔的立案者是誰?副主任嘛對不對也不一定喔有些是授權案件有些是非授權案件看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多有時候是檢察官交查的對不一定是我們主動發言根據你的經驗那個績效制度是不是有存在的必要這才能激勵基層辦案當然大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛對啊\n\n47\n00:17:55,538 --> 00:18:19,549\n好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然\n\n48\n00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:41,526\n好那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務\n\n49\n00:18:43,537 --> 00:18:48,822\n今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用\n\n50\n00:19:06,294 --> 00:19:30,066\n用選舉查查為什麼過往調查官在選舉查的期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎\n\n51\n00:19:31,723 --> 00:19:54,779\n所以說選舉查查其間很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼\n\n52\n00:19:57,318 --> 00:20:08,675\n各位長官各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告\n\n53\n00:20:11,327 --> 00:20:28,550\n請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦\n\n54\n00:20:29,751 --> 00:20:52,027\n還有檢查機制的存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關\n\n55\n00:20:53,850 --> 00:21:13,970\n無關所以這次甲官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在我必須要告訴國人就是這樣\n\n56\n00:21:16,308 --> 00:21:28,125\n我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎\n\n57\n00:21:31,189 --> 00:21:48,995\n好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點\n\n58\n00:21:50,615 --> 00:22:11,856\n你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法\n\n59\n00:22:12,056 --> 00:22:28,280\n司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷局長你講這個\n\n60\n00:22:37,662 --> 00:22:57,874\n就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查期間為什麼大家瘋狂的做我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦\n\n61\n00:22:59,395 --> 00:23:17,880\n就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件\n\n62\n00:23:19,781 --> 00:23:39,293\n好這是第一個第二個本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件好沒關係你是調查局局長你是主官你有你的決定權但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人\n\n63\n00:23:45,965 --> 00:24:08,340\n司法是對付犯罪者司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官基層調查官基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷能夠得到續獎大家都是這樣\n\n64\n00:24:09,605 --> 00:24:22,200\n我覺得當長官的你要有那個肩膀扛下來任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦我們一定開大門走大路\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2475\t13251\t我們麻煩部長還有調查局局長委員早\n14269\t38135\t局長 部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開了講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把\n39335\t62114\t非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎 局長知道這件事嗎都知道嘛 對不對好 那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊 跟兩位報告 我當天晚上電話接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了 必須要趕快去領表了但是\n63976\t80952\t當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情\n82748\t111323\t我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有拿幾種部長知道嗎\n114087\t133156\t好 沒關係 部長 請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押 另案扣押 還有非附屬於搜索的扣押好 那我想請教部長 回到上一頁我想請教部長宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說\n135798\t162479\t發現 經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長 並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎 可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以的不是 他屬於哪一種扣押 並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押 這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定 這個還沒有有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛\n163664\t185231\t這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關\n186711\t212723\t請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做並同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很隆重的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號\n214484\t237915\t對 所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押 局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼 你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索 當時這個搜索現場的授文人 授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清 他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧 局長\n240416\t264071\t有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂\n265000\t292112\t那我今天在 好 那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西 你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有 我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的 我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天\n293703\t310884\t今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎這個局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長\n312426\t335083\t我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先待會兒釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛\n335723\t354630\t而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為說這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛\n363633\t386323\t第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣\n387954\t412319\t這個釐清了嘛 這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞 說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋 部長 部長我尊重你是前輩但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話 那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼我就說我要回家看\n413908\t438581\t是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嗎是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊 放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢部長我聽不懂欸\n440256\t465228\t扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎\n466568\t478686\t對不對哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西\n482120\t500607\t這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清 那我們就報告部長 報告部長如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣 要扣什麼就扣什麼\n501107\t520828\t尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了\n522268\t543545\t結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉\n544626\t560339\t那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有\n561414\t584143\t如果沒有的話就便宜措施打開就發還嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發還\n585933\t611904\t我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把他爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨\n612624\t632041\t說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把他還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼他不是搜索扣押物喔\n634946\t649471\t那今天如果現場的工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫寫了什麼然後看完之後我看 看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧 兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁 這個訴訟法112112條齁\n663237\t678755\t因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來指引搜索那122條對第三人第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押置物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人\n681377\t702084\t這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內亂外犯罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國司法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個\n706263\t723824\t那個一三一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嘛凡是可為證據或得莫受當然都得依法扣押之嘛這整次進行搜索整次後來是算是在懲罰法院的問題而已嘛今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後\n724927\t748022\t調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請 沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說\n756707\t771368\t最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們再這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受\n773257\t799717\t執行機關 司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的\n801007\t827896\t然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係 那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義\n829176\t856499\t因為陳俊正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機\n858726\t861274\t士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任\n863083\t889291\t他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候\n890231\t909242\t他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解\n911993\t918636\t局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下你們檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼\n932567\t956434\t最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書\n957754\t974874\t跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍\n976892\t1000745\t廉政工作範圍嗎跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西我剛剛請教一下\n1006772\t1017230\t那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係這邊講不出來那沒有關係好那\n1021164\t1047424\t我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案\n1048965\t1074736\t各佔的立案者是誰?副主任嘛對不對也不一定喔有些是授權案件有些是非授權案件看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多有時候是檢察官交查的對不一定是我們主動發言根據你的經驗那個績效制度是不是有存在的必要這才能激勵基層辦案當然大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛對啊\n1075538\t1099549\t好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然\n1105029\t1121526\t好 那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁 這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務\n1123537\t1128822\t今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用\n1146294\t1170066\t用選舉查查為什麼過往調查官在選舉查的期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎\n1171723\t1194779\t所以說選舉查查其間 很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分 拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是 這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼\n1197318\t1208675\t各位長官 各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告\n1211327\t1228550\t請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦\n1229751\t1252027\t還有檢查機制的存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關\n1253850\t1273970\t無關 所以這次甲官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在 我必須要告訴國人就是這樣\n1276308\t1288125\t我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎\n1291189\t1308995\t好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點\n1310615\t1331856\t你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法\n1332056\t1348280\t司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷局長你講這個\n1357662\t1377874\t就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查期間為什麼大家瘋狂的做我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦\n1379395\t1397880\t就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件\n1399781\t1419293\t好 這是第一個 第二個 本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局 貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件好 沒關係 你是調查局局長 你是主官你有你的決定權 但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人\n1425965\t1448340\t司法是對付犯罪者 司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官 基層調查官 基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷 能夠得到續獎 大家都是這樣\n1449605\t1462200\t我覺得當長官的 你要有那個肩膀扛下來 任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的 已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦 我們一定開大門走大路\n","txt":"我們麻煩部長還有調查局局長委員早\n局長 部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開了講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把\n非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎 局長知道這件事嗎都知道嘛 對不對好 那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊 跟兩位報告 我當天晚上電話接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了 必須要趕快去領表了但是\n當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情\n我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有拿幾種部長知道嗎\n好 沒關係 部長 請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押 另案扣押 還有非附屬於搜索的扣押好 那我想請教部長 回到上一頁我想請教部長宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說\n發現 經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長 並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎 可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以的不是 他屬於哪一種扣押 並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押 這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定 這個還沒有有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛\n這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關\n請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做並同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很隆重的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號\n對 所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押 局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼 你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索 當時這個搜索現場的授文人 授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清 他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧 局長\n有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂\n那我今天在 好 那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西 你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有 我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的 我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天\n今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎這個局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長\n我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先待會兒釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛\n而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為說這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛\n第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣\n這個釐清了嘛 這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞 說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋 部長 部長我尊重你是前輩但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話 那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼我就說我要回家看\n是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嗎是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊 放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢部長我聽不懂欸\n扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎\n對不對哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西\n這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清 那我們就報告部長 報告部長如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣 要扣什麼就扣什麼\n尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了\n結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉\n那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有\n如果沒有的話就便宜措施打開就發還嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發還\n我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把他爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨\n說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把他還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼他不是搜索扣押物喔\n那今天如果現場的工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫寫了什麼然後看完之後我看 看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧 兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁 這個訴訟法112112條齁\n因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來指引搜索那122條對第三人第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押置物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人\n這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內亂外犯罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國司法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個\n那個一三一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嘛凡是可為證據或得莫受當然都得依法扣押之嘛這整次進行搜索整次後來是算是在懲罰法院的問題而已嘛今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後\n調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請 沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說\n最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們再這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受\n執行機關 司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的\n然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係 那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義\n因為陳俊正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機\n士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任\n他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候\n他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解\n局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下你們檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼\n最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書\n跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍\n廉政工作範圍嗎跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西我剛剛請教一下\n那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係這邊講不出來那沒有關係好那\n我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案\n各佔的立案者是誰?副主任嘛對不對也不一定喔有些是授權案件有些是非授權案件看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多有時候是檢察官交查的對不一定是我們主動發言根據你的經驗那個績效制度是不是有存在的必要這才能激勵基層辦案當然大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛對啊\n好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然\n好 那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁 這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務\n今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用\n用選舉查查為什麼過往調查官在選舉查的期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎\n所以說選舉查查其間 很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分 拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是 這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼\n各位長官 各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告\n請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦\n還有檢查機制的存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關\n無關 所以這次甲官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在 我必須要告訴國人就是這樣\n我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎\n好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點\n你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法\n司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷局長你講這個\n就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查期間為什麼大家瘋狂的做我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦\n就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件\n好 這是第一個 第二個 本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局 貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件好 沒關係 你是調查局局長 你是主官你有你的決定權 但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人\n司法是對付犯罪者 司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官 基層調查官 基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷 能夠得到續獎 大家都是這樣\n我覺得當長官的 你要有那個肩膀扛下來 任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的 已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦 我們一定開大門走大路\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.475 --> 00:13.251\n我們麻煩部長還有調查局局長委員早\n\n00:14.269 --> 00:38.135\n局長部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開了講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把\n\n00:39.335 --> 01:02.114\n非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎局長知道這件事嗎都知道嘛對不對好那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊跟兩位報告我當天晚上電話接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了必須要趕快去領表了但是\n\n01:03.976 --> 01:20.952\n當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情\n\n01:22.748 --> 01:51.323\n我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有拿幾種部長知道嗎\n\n01:54.087 --> 02:13.156\n好沒關係部長請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押另案扣押還有非附屬於搜索的扣押好那我想請教部長回到上一頁我想請教部長宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說\n\n02:15.798 --> 02:42.479\n發現經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以的不是他屬於哪一種扣押並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定這個還沒有有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛\n\n02:43.664 --> 03:05.231\n這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關\n\n03:06.711 --> 03:32.723\n請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做並同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很隆重的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號\n\n03:34.484 --> 03:57.915\n對所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索當時這個搜索現場的授文人授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧局長\n\n04:00.416 --> 04:24.071\n有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂\n\n04:25.000 --> 04:52.112\n那我今天在好那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天\n\n04:53.703 --> 05:10.884\n今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎這個局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長\n\n05:12.426 --> 05:35.083\n我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先待會兒釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛\n\n05:35.723 --> 05:54.630\n而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為說這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛\n\n06:03.633 --> 06:26.323\n第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣\n\n06:27.954 --> 06:52.319\n這個釐清了嘛這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋部長部長我尊重你是前輩但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼我就說我要回家看\n\n06:53.908 --> 07:18.581\n是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嗎是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢部長我聽不懂欸\n\n07:20.256 --> 07:45.228\n扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎\n\n07:46.568 --> 07:58.686\n對不對哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西\n\n08:02.120 --> 08:20.607\n這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清那我們就報告部長報告部長如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣要扣什麼就扣什麼\n\n08:21.107 --> 08:40.828\n尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了\n\n08:42.268 --> 09:03.545\n結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉\n\n09:04.626 --> 09:20.339\n那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有\n\n09:21.414 --> 09:44.143\n如果沒有的話就便宜措施打開就發還嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發還\n\n09:45.933 --> 10:11.904\n我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把他爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨\n\n10:12.624 --> 10:32.041\n說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把他還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼他不是搜索扣押物喔\n\n10:34.946 --> 10:49.471\n那今天如果現場的工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫寫了什麼然後看完之後我看看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁這個訴訟法112112條齁\n\n11:03.237 --> 11:18.755\n因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來指引搜索那122條對第三人第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押置物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人\n\n11:21.377 --> 11:42.084\n這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內亂外犯罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國司法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個\n\n11:46.263 --> 12:03.824\n那個一三一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嘛凡是可為證據或得莫受當然都得依法扣押之嘛這整次進行搜索整次後來是算是在懲罰法院的問題而已嘛今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後\n\n12:04.927 --> 12:28.022\n調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說\n\n12:36.707 --> 12:51.368\n最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們再這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受\n\n12:53.257 --> 13:19.717\n執行機關司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的\n\n13:21.007 --> 13:47.896\n然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義\n\n13:49.176 --> 14:16.499\n因為陳俊正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機\n\n14:18.726 --> 14:21.274\n士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任\n\n14:23.083 --> 14:49.291\n他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候\n\n14:50.231 --> 15:09.242\n他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解\n\n15:11.993 --> 15:18.636\n局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下你們檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼\n\n15:32.567 --> 15:56.434\n最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書\n\n15:57.754 --> 16:14.874\n跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍\n\n16:16.892 --> 16:40.745\n廉政工作範圍嗎跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西我剛剛請教一下\n\n16:46.772 --> 16:57.230\n那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係這邊講不出來那沒有關係好那\n\n17:01.164 --> 17:27.424\n我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案\n\n17:28.965 --> 17:54.736\n各佔的立案者是誰?副主任嘛對不對也不一定喔有些是授權案件有些是非授權案件看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多有時候是檢察官交查的對不一定是我們主動發言根據你的經驗那個績效制度是不是有存在的必要這才能激勵基層辦案當然大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛對啊\n\n17:55.538 --> 18:19.549\n好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然\n\n18:25.029 --> 18:41.526\n好那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務\n\n18:43.537 --> 18:48.822\n今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用\n\n19:06.294 --> 19:30.066\n用選舉查查為什麼過往調查官在選舉查的期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎\n\n19:31.723 --> 19:54.779\n所以說選舉查查其間很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼\n\n19:57.318 --> 20:08.675\n各位長官各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告\n\n20:11.327 --> 20:28.550\n請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦\n\n20:29.751 --> 20:52.027\n還有檢查機制的存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關\n\n20:53.850 --> 21:13.970\n無關所以這次甲官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在我必須要告訴國人就是這樣\n\n21:16.308 --> 21:28.125\n我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎\n\n21:31.189 --> 21:48.995\n好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點\n\n21:50.615 --> 22:11.856\n你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法\n\n22:12.056 --> 22:28.280\n司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷局長你講這個\n\n22:37.662 --> 22:57.874\n就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查期間為什麼大家瘋狂的做我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦\n\n22:59.395 --> 23:17.880\n就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件\n\n23:19.781 --> 23:39.293\n好這是第一個第二個本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件好沒關係你是調查局局長你是主官你有你的決定權但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人\n\n23:45.965 --> 24:08.340\n司法是對付犯罪者司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官基層調查官基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷能夠得到續獎大家都是這樣\n\n24:09.605 --> 24:22.200\n我覺得當長官的你要有那個肩膀扛下來任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦我們一定開大門走大路\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.475,"end":13.251,"text":"我們麻煩部長還有調查局局長委員早"},{"start":14.269,"end":38.135,"text":"局長 部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開了講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把"},{"start":39.335,"end":62.114,"text":"非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎 局長知道這件事嗎都知道嘛 對不對好 那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊 跟兩位報告 我當天晚上電話接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了 必須要趕快去領表了但是"},{"start":63.976,"end":80.952,"text":"當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情"},{"start":82.748,"end":111.323,"text":"我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有拿幾種部長知道嗎"},{"start":114.087,"end":133.156,"text":"好 沒關係 部長 請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押 另案扣押 還有非附屬於搜索的扣押好 那我想請教部長 回到上一頁我想請教部長宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說"},{"start":135.798,"end":162.479,"text":"發現 經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長 並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎 可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以的不是 他屬於哪一種扣押 並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押 這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定 這個還沒有有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛"},{"start":163.664,"end":185.231,"text":"這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關"},{"start":186.711,"end":212.723,"text":"請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做並同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很隆重的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號"},{"start":214.484,"end":237.915,"text":"對 所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押 局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼 你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索 當時這個搜索現場的授文人 授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清 他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧 局長"},{"start":240.416,"end":264.071,"text":"有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂"},{"start":265,"end":292.112,"text":"那我今天在 好 那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西 你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有 我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的 我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天"},{"start":293.703,"end":310.884,"text":"今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎這個局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長"},{"start":312.426,"end":335.083,"text":"我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先待會兒釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛"},{"start":335.723,"end":354.63,"text":"而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為說這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛"},{"start":363.633,"end":386.323,"text":"第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣"},{"start":387.954,"end":412.319,"text":"這個釐清了嘛 這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞 說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋 部長 部長我尊重你是前輩但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話 那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼我就說我要回家看"},{"start":413.908,"end":438.581,"text":"是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嗎是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊 放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢部長我聽不懂欸"},{"start":440.256,"end":465.228,"text":"扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎"},{"start":466.568,"end":478.686,"text":"對不對哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西"},{"start":482.12,"end":500.607,"text":"這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清 那我們就報告部長 報告部長如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣 要扣什麼就扣什麼"},{"start":501.107,"end":520.828,"text":"尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了"},{"start":522.268,"end":543.545,"text":"結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉"},{"start":544.626,"end":560.339,"text":"那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有"},{"start":561.414,"end":584.143,"text":"如果沒有的話就便宜措施打開就發還嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發還"},{"start":585.933,"end":611.904,"text":"我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把他爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨"},{"start":612.624,"end":632.041,"text":"說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把他還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼他不是搜索扣押物喔"},{"start":634.946,"end":649.471,"text":"那今天如果現場的工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫寫了什麼然後看完之後我看 看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧 兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁 這個訴訟法112112條齁"},{"start":663.237,"end":678.755,"text":"因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來指引搜索那122條對第三人第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押置物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人"},{"start":681.377,"end":702.084,"text":"這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內亂外犯罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國司法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個"},{"start":706.263,"end":723.824,"text":"那個一三一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嘛凡是可為證據或得莫受當然都得依法扣押之嘛這整次進行搜索整次後來是算是在懲罰法院的問題而已嘛今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後"},{"start":724.927,"end":748.022,"text":"調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請 沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說"},{"start":756.707,"end":771.368,"text":"最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們再這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受"},{"start":773.257,"end":799.717,"text":"執行機關 司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的"},{"start":801.007,"end":827.896,"text":"然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係 那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義"},{"start":829.176,"end":856.499,"text":"因為陳俊正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機"},{"start":858.726,"end":861.274,"text":"士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任"},{"start":863.083,"end":889.291,"text":"他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候"},{"start":890.231,"end":909.242,"text":"他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解"},{"start":911.993,"end":918.636,"text":"局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下你們檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼"},{"start":932.567,"end":956.434,"text":"最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書"},{"start":957.754,"end":974.874,"text":"跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍"},{"start":976.892,"end":1000.745,"text":"廉政工作範圍嗎跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西我剛剛請教一下"},{"start":1006.772,"end":1017.23,"text":"那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係這邊講不出來那沒有關係好那"},{"start":1021.164,"end":1047.424,"text":"我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案"},{"start":1048.965,"end":1074.736,"text":"各佔的立案者是誰?副主任嘛對不對也不一定喔有些是授權案件有些是非授權案件看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多有時候是檢察官交查的對不一定是我們主動發言根據你的經驗那個績效制度是不是有存在的必要這才能激勵基層辦案當然大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛對啊"},{"start":1075.538,"end":1099.549,"text":"好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然"},{"start":1105.029,"end":1121.526,"text":"好 那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁 這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務"},{"start":1123.537,"end":1128.822,"text":"今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用"},{"start":1146.294,"end":1170.066,"text":"用選舉查查為什麼過往調查官在選舉查的期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎"},{"start":1171.723,"end":1194.779,"text":"所以說選舉查查其間 很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分 拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是 這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼"},{"start":1197.318,"end":1208.675,"text":"各位長官 各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告"},{"start":1211.327,"end":1228.55,"text":"請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦"},{"start":1229.751,"end":1252.027,"text":"還有檢查機制的存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關"},{"start":1253.85,"end":1273.97,"text":"無關 所以這次甲官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在 我必須要告訴國人就是這樣"},{"start":1276.308,"end":1288.125,"text":"我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎"},{"start":1291.189,"end":1308.995,"text":"好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點"},{"start":1310.615,"end":1331.856,"text":"你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法"},{"start":1332.056,"end":1348.28,"text":"司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷局長你講這個"},{"start":1357.662,"end":1377.874,"text":"就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查期間為什麼大家瘋狂的做我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦"},{"start":1379.395,"end":1397.88,"text":"就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件"},{"start":1399.781,"end":1419.293,"text":"好 這是第一個 第二個 本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局 貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件好 沒關係 你是調查局局長 你是主官你有你的決定權 但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人"},{"start":1425.965,"end":1448.34,"text":"司法是對付犯罪者 司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官 基層調查官 基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷 能夠得到續獎 大家都是這樣"},{"start":1449.605,"end":1462.2,"text":"我覺得當長官的 你要有那個肩膀扛下來 任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的 已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦 我們一定開大門走大路"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時32分）麻煩部長還有調查局局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長、部長，兩位早安。今天問的東西我已經公開地講好幾天，所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位，日前調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候，發生一個狀況，就是他們把非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了，部長知道這件事嗎？局長知道這件事嗎？"],["陳局長白立：知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：都知道嘛，對不對？好，跟各位報告，我當天晚上電話接不完啊！因為他們要去要回這些資料，因為隔天已經是最後一天必須要趕快去領表，但是當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說，如果沒有公文在就不能夠領，而且領銜人的身分證還有他的委託書當時也都在縣調站，所以當時他們像熱鍋上的螞蟻，不知道該怎麼處理這件事情，我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說，結果地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有扣這個東西，然後第二份新聞稿，就是我們在一直跟它講它說沒有，結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟它說，這時候才說有，然後有了以後，它發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西。我想先請教部長，部長請問一下，我國扣押物品的扣押有哪幾種？部長知道嗎？好，沒關係，部長請看這個PowerPoint，除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外，我們還有附帶扣押、另案扣押、非附隨於搜索的扣押。我想請教部長，宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說明，經過向調查官反應後，發現與本案相關查扣資料併同帶回調查站。請問部長，「併同帶回」是屬於哪一種扣押？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就是扣押，可為證據或得沒收當然就是可扣押。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，它屬於哪一種扣押？「併同帶回」是扣押嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個帶回……"],["吳委員宗憲：幕僚都可以跟他說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這還沒有扣押，搜索到的東西不一定……這有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面。這個要請調查局回答。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請調查局回答。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你指的這一件文件，當時有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["陳局長白立：而且這個扣押的現場是由檢察官帶隊。"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是重點，憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西，甚至公文上面一望即知，這跟一階連署有什麼關係？請問局長，我們可以去查扣非搜索票上面所載，跟本案無關，顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西，我們可以把它扣回去嗎？請問什麼叫做「併同帶回」？這是屬於刑事訴訟法的哪一個條文？"],["陳局長白立：我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚，因為偵查不公開的問題，所以我只能很籠統地告訴你，這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號，所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押這份公文……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，局長，這份公文出現在現場的問號是什麼，你跟我講清楚。"],["陳局長白立：這件公文……"],["吳委員宗憲：法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場？"],["陳局長白立：這件公文的受文者不是當時在這個搜索現場的人，所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清，他把它扣押回來，這不會有任何問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：這太離譜了吧！局長，有什麼規定是一份合法公文不能放在哪一個地點？我國法律有這樣規定嗎？"],["陳局長白立：對，所以檢察官需要釐清。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你不要騙我。"],["陳局長白立：所以檢察官需要釐清。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你講這個太外行了，你不要把我當外行人看，我一直在這邊跟各位報告……"],["陳局長白立：不會，委員很內行。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果我今天是外行人，你跟我講這個，我聽不懂就算了。如果照你這樣講，縣調站裡面也有非常多不是縣調站的東西，你們為什麼不全部查扣回家？","第二個，我想請問，什麼叫做「併同帶回」？需不需要立法院幫各位修法，把「併同帶回」四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，那個併同帶回……這件有在扣押清冊裡面的，整個程序是合法的，我跟委員報告，這一點你放心。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以今天不能扣押的東西，我愛扣就扣，只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎？局長，你的意思是這樣，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：檢察官在現場認定。"],["吳委員宗憲：你現在推給檢察官就對了？"],["陳局長白立：不是，檢察官他有帶隊的。"],["吳委員宗憲：法務部部長，請問一下，檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎？部長，我不是不懂，麻煩部長說實話、麻煩局長說實話。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現場搜索如果檢察官當場認為有關聯性的，當然我們就可以扣押，可以先帶回釐清。但是我們有查過，新聞稿也說明公文發還給律師來簽收了，所以這個並沒有查扣，而且是在搜索的現場，這個好像是裡面的……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，已經多少次我們在這裡質詢，後來回去法官、檢察官看到覺得很可笑。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不可笑，本來……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我剛剛已經給你看了，我國刑事訴訟法的查扣方式有哪幾種。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，您也當過檢察官，你也知道帶隊去搜索的時候，有關連性的我們帶回去釐清，後來經過解釋，檢察官認為這個沒有查扣的必要，我們就發還了，所以這件並沒有查扣。"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個，我先各位說明，我認為把這個東西扣走就屬於不合法的扣押。第二個，即使你今天是一個合法的扣押，為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情，請問這是怎麼回事？為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：釐清了，所以才發一個新聞稿說調查官將該紙公文交給律師領回。"],["吳委員宗憲：我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬解釋成這樣，我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋，這個是依法搜索。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我尊重你是前輩，但是法律我們念的是同一套，如果照這樣的話，那以後搜索現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼，我就說我要回家看，可以這樣嗎？","我再跟各位報告，我國刑事訴訟法沒有「併同帶回」這四個字，請你告訴我「併同帶回」是屬於扣押的哪一種？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這整個是放在一個文件裡面的。"],["吳委員宗憲：不能這樣講，放在文件裡面，這怎麼會這樣講呢？部長，我聽不懂耶！扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證才能扣押，即使我去一個地點搜索，如果我今天去總統府搜索，我要搜第幾局的東西，我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎？這我絕對反對到底的，一樣的邏輯或者我去總統府哪一個單位搜索，我可以把總統寫給他的東西一起扣走嗎？對不對？哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法，我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個可不可以扣押的問題，可為證據或得沒收之物當然可以扣押，檢察官在當場認為這是有關聯性的東西、有關聯性的一個證物，後來調查物釐清了，沒有扣押的必要，我們就發還給律師來領回了。"],["吳委員宗憲：報告部長，如果你要這樣解釋刑事訴訟法，那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了，就檢察官可以愛扣什麼就扣什麼，尤其是那一份公文，上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官沒有愛扣什麼就扣什麼，這完全是合法的行為，這沒有什麼好……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，今天當事人要求發還，你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣，不要當大家是傻子，看不懂上面寫什麼。第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發，我還想說不可能，檢方不會騙人，我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了，結果後來他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講了之後，才有第二份公文出來。我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做「併同帶回」，我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位修法，否則我不知道怎麼去解釋「併同帶回」這件事。最後還好意思寫「嚴守法定程序」，要是我今天出了這個包，我就出來道歉。","另外，我也想跟部長、局長講一下，如果今天你查扣了，已經放進扣押物品清單了，然後你今天把證物袋打開，你有沒有踐行正常的啟封程序，有沒有？如果沒有的話，就便宜措施打開發還嗎？這個請各位去了解。你今天在辦的一個案子，如果已經高度爭議了，是不是程序上面要更嚴謹？我在這邊也跟各位報告，我們每個人都會出包，我們自己當檢察官的時候，有時候程序不小心也會錯，但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉，說這是不小心扣到並趕快發還，我覺得這樣大家都可以接受，每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候，但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯，硬拗這個屬於法定程序，我跟你講，如果我今天在當檢察官，我去你家搜索，愛扣什麼就扣什麼，我去搜兒子的東西，我把爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看，把爸媽手機一起扣回家，你看有沒有這個狀況？","我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情，有很多人抱怨當天去現場時，有些人根本跟本案無關，他們只是義工而已，手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看，在那邊看了一個小時之後才把它還給當事人，我想請問一下，這個法律依據是什麼？他們不是搜索扣押物喔！今天如果現場有個工友在那邊打掃，是不是也叫工友把手機拿來，我看一下裡面寫了什麼，我看得很高興，看完之後再還給他？請問一下，這個法律依據在哪裡？好吧，兩位答不出來，我再跟這個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我跟委員報告，因為法院法官核定了一個搜索票，並依其內容執行搜索，依據刑事訴訟法第一百二十二條，對第三人身體、物件、電磁紀錄及住宅或其他處所，以有相當理由可信為被告或犯罪嫌疑人或應扣押之物或電磁紀錄存在時為限，得搜索之。所以現場……"],["吳委員宗憲：那你有沒有把這些人列為被告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現場……"],["吳委員宗憲：今天這樣講，就我剛剛講的那個例子，今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪，譬如總統府有共諜案，我去那裡辦共諜案，我請總統手機交出來給我看，因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人，內亂外患罪我一樣可以辦你，可以這樣嗎？這樣的話，我國司法不就無限制了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果還有進行搜索，有刑事訴訟法第一百三十一條這些情況也可以直接逕行搜索，凡是可為證據或得沒收之物，得扣押之。這逕行搜索只是三日內陳報法院的問題而已。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工，他們可能就在那邊打掃，調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來，而且非常多人，交出手機讓他們看了1個小時。看完了之後也沒踐行任何的程序，沒有扣押，也沒有把這些人簽為被告，手機就還給他們，今天人家不滿的是這個。如果兩位長官覺得這樣的行為是對的，沒關係，今天錄影會全程公開。","然後我再講另外一個，雖然最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西會傷害司法威信，但我跟兩位報告，你們再這樣操作下去，才是傷害司法威信。今天我講的每一個東西，都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上有什麼權益，在接受執行機關、司法機關調查搜索時，可以主張什麼，這個是我國刑事訴訟法保障每個人民的基本權利。民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎？我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡，人民享有非常多的自由，有免於恐懼的自由，結果今天在面對調查官的時候，我跟本案完全無關，我是義工，我到現場掃地的，我到現場整理花圃的，然後叫我把手機交出來給他看，卻也沒有把我簽為被告，也不是犯罪嫌疑人，東西也沒有被查扣，你要是把它查扣回去看的話，我還無話可說，卻只是在現場看了1個小時後就發還。非常多地方的人遇到這種事情，如果兩位認為這樣是對的，好，沒關係，那就這樣，我在這邊只是跟各位報告，我在當司法人員一天，我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義，因為程序正義是死的，改天回過頭來，當事人檢舉我的時候，我無話可說啊！因為不涉及主觀判斷。如果對於宜蘭的做法是這樣的，我真的不知道兩位回去如何面對你們所帶領的同仁。我從來不覺得可以在現場隨便要查扣什麼就查扣什麼，要人家交出手機就交出手機。士林、北投罷免吳思瑤的領銜人賴苡任，他女朋友的手機放在家裡，調查官還叫賴苡任問他女朋友的手機密碼是多少，要求他打開手機。其實這些在法律上都有問題，除非認為他女朋友跟他是共同正犯，也是犯罪嫌疑人之一，那我就沒有話說，但是今天你不能這樣做。我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是程序正義，國人在接受公權力執行的時候，有法律上合法的權利，我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪，就像這一次偽造文書，不管別人怎麼講、不管人家說我如何，我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪，該辦就是該辦，但是要注意一下比例原則對不對、平等性原則對不對，你辦藍辦綠的邏輯完全不一樣，我就沒法理解。","局長，我跟你請教一下，最近這幾個案子，包括北檢的案子，請問檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候，涉犯的法條是什麼？關於幽靈連署這個案子。"],["陳局長白立：最近這個罷免連署的案件，目前初步看起來就是偽造文書跟個人資料保護法等。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛！"],["陳局長白立：因為具體的偵查細節要檢察官才知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：我可以理解，但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書跟個人資料保護法，那我想請問一下調查局，偽造文書跟個資是屬於組織法第二條中的那一個職掌範圍？組織法第二條有好幾種職掌範圍，請問是那一種？"],["陳局長白立：如果是跟選舉罷免有關的部分，是屬於廉政工作範圍。"],["吳委員宗憲：過往都是在經濟嘛！"],["陳局長白立：如果單純是偽造文書的話，是屬於經濟犯罪防制處的業務：如果是在選舉罷免階段的話，是廉政業務。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在有個問題嘛！檢察官到目前為止在各地發的新聞稿中，涉犯的法條就兩個，偽造文書以及違反個資法。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我請教一下，偽造文書以前的績效核分怎麼算？"],["陳局長白立：這個就要看我們業務處的規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們這邊講不出來，那沒關係。我再請教你一個問題，你們最近已經弄到我不知道該如何面對你們了，請問局長擔任基層調查官多久？"],["陳局長白立：30年。"],["吳委員宗憲：立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案，還是要有一定的證據？"],["陳局長白立：當然要有一定程度的證據。"],["吳委員宗憲：那立案是誰立案？各站的立案者是誰？"],["陳局長白立：各外勤立案。"],["吳委員宗憲：副主任嘛！"],["陳局長白立：也不一定喔，有些是……"],["吳委員宗憲：原則上啦！"],["陳局長白立：有些是授權案件，有些是非授權案件，看案件的類型。立案的情況也很多，有時候是檢察官交查的，不一定是我們主動發起的。"],["吳委員宗憲：根據你的經驗，績效制度是不是有存在的必要，才能激勵基層辦案？"],["陳局長白立：當然都要有一定的標準。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我在這邊跟各位報告，所謂的績效等等，不管在民間企業或政府企業，其實都關係到每個人的升遷和考績，我想這個大概沒有問題。"],["陳局長白立：一部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這當然是一部分，我們還會考核他的清廉度、個性和私生活等等，這個我可以理解。所以說我今天要請教你一個問題，這一次所謂的幽靈連署，檢察官認為涉犯的法條是偽造文書和違反個人資料保護法，但是有關績效的評比，你們是放在哪一個項目之下？"],["陳局長白立：我剛才有跟委員報告，這是屬於廉政業務，因為這個是選舉罷免……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個是你們的新聞稿，我跟各位請教一個問題，並且我要告訴國人，今天檢察官說的非常清楚，這些行為涉犯的是偽造文書和違反個人資料保護法，結果調查局用什麼來核分給績效大家知道嗎？他們用選舉查察。為什麼過往調查官在選舉查察期間，不管藍、綠的選舉，都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺、一直下去砍，因為選舉查察期間的核分敘獎都比較高，而且時間短，不像一般案件要辦非常久，他的組織才拿得到核分，個人才拿得到敘獎，所以選舉查察期間，很多人就等4年一次的地方選舉。因為立委和總統的選舉不好查，很多調查官一直以來都在等4年一次的地方選舉，在這邊拿到積分和敘獎，因為這和他的升遷有非常大的關聯性。但是這一次不是，我個人看到的結果是什麼？各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂地去查辦幽靈連署案件，而把它認定為選舉查察案件。","我也跟兩位報告，我在這個體系做了20年，我認識非常多的調查官好朋友，他們會跟我們講很多不敢跟長官報告的事情，只是長官要求的他們也不得不做。檢察官有檢察一體制，上級交辦什麼，檢察官就必須要辦，調查站有上下隸屬的問題，所以基層都不得不聽指揮去辦，但他們的心中有非常多的怨恨。所以這段期間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題，今天這個案子連中選會都出來說，新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關，所以這一次檢察官承辦的案件與選舉罷免法無關，但是調查局希望調查官下去瘋狂地辦這個案子，而改為選舉查察案件敘獎，這就是今天問題的所在，我必須要告訴國人。你們一定會講一個東西，你們會說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦！因為郭台銘那個連署的時候是涉及用錢去買，它是有行賄的問題，兩個完全不一樣。"],["陳局長白立：委員，我可以就你的問題說明嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好。"],["陳局長白立：第一點，我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案，然後績效的部分回歸選舉查察，我想你也理解，在選舉罷免階段的犯罪行為，當然就是選舉查察，但是沒有特別加乘，也沒有特別的優待。然後第二點……"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你後面講這些在誤導國人！"],["陳局長白立：我沒有誤導國人……"],["吳委員宗憲：我到此刻為止沒有跟你談加乘喔！"],["陳局長白立：這個就是調查局現行的制度……"],["吳委員宗憲：我只是跟你說你把檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件。"],["陳局長白立：我跟你說明，我們調查局內部的內控做法，我舉一個例子來講，司法詐欺它是詐欺還是司法？司法詐欺是在廉政案件。再來，選舉查察的績效不是你講的很容易拿到，然後分數又特別高……"],["吳委員宗憲：局長……"],["陳局長白立：反而是剛好相反，我們選舉查察的案件必須要檢察官有起訴……"],["主席：局長，請就內容來回答，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：有起訴我們才會給績效，所以不會說大家為了升遷瘋狂地去做，這個不是你想像的。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你講這個，就像我講的，你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的。"],["陳局長白立：不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：選舉查察績效很難拿，沒錯，但它的誘因就是很大。因為它的敘獎以及核分就是誘因很大，不然你看每次選舉查察期間，為什麼大家攻防……"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有特別的敘獎規定，在選舉查察上，沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我今天把問題點出來，很簡單……"],["陳局長白立：我就回答你了。"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個，我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官，選舉查察的分數以及選舉查察的敘獎，是不是大家時間到就想搶？很多的尤其是比較鄉下的調查站，更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好地去辦選舉罷免案件。","第二個，本次各地檢署所發的新聞稿，相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法，但是調查局、貴局竟然可以認定它的敘獎核分是用選罷法案件。"],["陳局長白立：罷免期間的犯罪當然是選舉查察的項目。"],["吳委員宗憲：你是調查局局長，你是主官，你有你的決定權，但我在這邊就告訴各位國人，司法是對付犯罪者，司法不是對付善良百姓，我請各位要知道這個點。另外，請不要用這種方式利誘調查官去辦這種案子，這些基層調查官、基層檢察官都很辛苦，他們也希望能夠得到升遷、能夠得到敘獎，大家都是這樣。我覺得當長官的要有那個肩膀扛下來任何的壓力，你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情，以前沒有過的，已經違反法律平等原則了。"],["陳局長白立：委員你放心，我們一定開大門走大路，我們沒有特別針對藍綠的問題。"],["主席：我想時間的關係，是不是吳委員的質詢就到此，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位我們請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}