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\"end\": 730.633, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 730.633, \"end\": 730.653, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,013 --> 00:00:31,167\n好謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核\n\n2\n00:00:32,467 --> 00:00:40,383\n呃基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對\n\n3\n00:00:42,216 --> 00:01:01,652\n走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好謝謝那請回好我們現在請這個調查局去講\n\n4\n00:01:08,157 --> 00:01:16,812\n委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎\n\n5\n00:01:17,942 --> 00:01:39,002\n不是這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的重大利益有關的由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提然後就成為那個副表\n\n6\n00:01:40,123 --> 00:01:54,700\n那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛\n\n7\n00:01:58,044 --> 00:02:14,581\n那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來\n\n8\n00:02:16,363 --> 00:02:40,611\n那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少\n\n9\n00:02:43,547 --> 00:03:06,593\n您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要\n\n10\n00:03:07,433 --> 00:03:27,237\n但是有些因為他不是公務員因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員他是約聘僱人員的就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是\n\n11\n00:03:29,219 --> 00:03:48,380\n譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職\n\n12\n00:03:51,270 --> 00:04:19,662\n不是說一定不能就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求\n\n13\n00:04:20,796 --> 00:04:39,926\n我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據\n\n14\n00:04:41,618 --> 00:04:52,907\n那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛\n\n15\n00:04:53,783 --> 00:05:20,115\n那這個部長認為這個有必要那我就納入對不對那我立法委員我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說在執行上才會有依據意思就是說如果立法院不同意\n\n16\n00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:47,258\n立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行\n\n17\n00:05:56,324 --> 00:06:05,249\n不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們\n\n18\n00:06:13,877 --> 00:06:38,452\n機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎\n\n19\n00:06:41,601 --> 00:07:05,646\n地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動\n\n20\n00:07:07,266 --> 00:07:33,652\n台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動\n\n21\n00:07:36,427 --> 00:07:46,481\n人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集\n\n22\n00:07:48,922 --> 00:07:52,885\n假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入\n\n23\n00:08:14,780 --> 00:08:40,879\n現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長\n\n24\n00:08:42,130 --> 00:08:52,243\n就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊\n\n25\n00:08:57,550 --> 00:09:12,404\n希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應\n\n26\n00:09:21,466 --> 00:09:41,840\n我的意思是說比如說全國的紅綠燈全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統台中市的號誌大亂\n\n27\n00:09:44,380 --> 00:10:03,588\n恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了\n\n28\n00:10:04,088 --> 00:10:30,524\n全部都不能運作了全部都怎樣了如果啦如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個\n\n29\n00:10:32,025 --> 00:10:56,571\n被侵入這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題害侵治安的問題\n\n30\n00:10:57,191 --> 00:11:12,213\n所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對後續的一個研議去推動OK我是希望說接下來因為\n\n31\n00:11:13,234 --> 00:11:28,924\n因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵\n\n32\n00:11:29,964 --> 00:11:58,644\n就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊\n\n33\n00:11:59,705 --> 00:12:10,653\n大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好謝謝你們謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10013\t31167\t好 謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核\n32467\t40383\t呃 基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對\n42216\t61652\t走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對 當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好 謝謝 那請回好 我們現在請這個調查局去講\n68157\t76812\t委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎\n77942\t99002\t不是 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表\n100123\t114700\t那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛\n118044\t134581\t那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來\n136363\t160611\t那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少\n163547\t186593\t您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要\n187433\t207237\t但是有些因為他不是公務員 因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員 他是約聘僱人員的 就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核 那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是\n209219\t228380\t譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職\n231270\t259662\t不是說一定不能 就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽 你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求\n260796\t279926\t我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據\n281618\t292907\t那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛\n293783\t320115\t那這個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說 如果立法院不同意\n321360\t347258\t立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行\n356324\t365249\t不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們\n373877\t398452\t機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎\n401601\t425646\t地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動\n427266\t453652\t台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動\n456427\t466481\t人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集\n468922\t472885\t假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入\n494780\t520879\t現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長\n522130\t532243\t就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊\n537550\t552404\t希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應\n561466\t581840\t我的意思是說 比如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂\n584380\t603588\t恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了\n604088\t630524\t全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個\n632025\t656571\t被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題\n657191\t672213\t所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為\n673234\t688924\t因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵\n689964\t718644\t就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊\n719705\t730653\t大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核\n呃 基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對\n走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對 當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好 謝謝 那請回好 我們現在請這個調查局去講\n委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎\n不是 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表\n那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛\n那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來\n那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少\n您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要\n但是有些因為他不是公務員 因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員 他是約聘僱人員的 就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核 那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是\n譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職\n不是說一定不能 就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽 你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求\n我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據\n那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛\n那這個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說 如果立法院不同意\n立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行\n不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們\n機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎\n地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動\n台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動\n人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集\n假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入\n現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長\n就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊\n希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應\n我的意思是說 比如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂\n恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了\n全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個\n被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題\n所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為\n因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵\n就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊\n大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.013 --> 00:31.167\n好謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核\n\n00:32.467 --> 00:40.383\n呃基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對\n\n00:42.216 --> 01:01.652\n走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好謝謝那請回好我們現在請這個調查局去講\n\n01:08.157 --> 01:16.812\n委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎\n\n01:17.942 --> 01:39.002\n不是這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的重大利益有關的由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提然後就成為那個副表\n\n01:40.123 --> 01:54.700\n那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛\n\n01:58.044 --> 02:14.581\n那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來\n\n02:16.363 --> 02:40.611\n那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少\n\n02:43.547 --> 03:06.593\n您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要\n\n03:07.433 --> 03:27.237\n但是有些因為他不是公務員因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員他是約聘僱人員的就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是\n\n03:29.219 --> 03:48.380\n譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職\n\n03:51.270 --> 04:19.662\n不是說一定不能就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求\n\n04:20.796 --> 04:39.926\n我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據\n\n04:41.618 --> 04:52.907\n那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛\n\n04:53.783 --> 05:20.115\n那這個部長認為這個有必要那我就納入對不對那我立法委員我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說在執行上才會有依據意思就是說如果立法院不同意\n\n05:21.360 --> 05:47.258\n立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行\n\n05:56.324 --> 06:05.249\n不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們\n\n06:13.877 --> 06:38.452\n機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎\n\n06:41.601 --> 07:05.646\n地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動\n\n07:07.266 --> 07:33.652\n台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動\n\n07:36.427 --> 07:46.481\n人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集\n\n07:48.922 --> 07:52.885\n假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入\n\n08:14.780 --> 08:40.879\n現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長\n\n08:42.130 --> 08:52.243\n就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊\n\n08:57.550 --> 09:12.404\n希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應\n\n09:21.466 --> 09:41.840\n我的意思是說比如說全國的紅綠燈全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統台中市的號誌大亂\n\n09:44.380 --> 10:03.588\n恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了\n\n10:04.088 --> 10:30.524\n全部都不能運作了全部都怎樣了如果啦如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個\n\n10:32.025 --> 10:56.571\n被侵入這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題害侵治安的問題\n\n10:57.191 --> 11:12.213\n所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對後續的一個研議去推動OK我是希望說接下來因為\n\n11:13.234 --> 11:28.924\n因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵\n\n11:29.964 --> 11:58.644\n就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊\n\n11:59.705 --> 12:10.653\n大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好謝謝你們謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.013,"end":31.167,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核"},{"start":32.467,"end":40.383,"text":"呃 基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對"},{"start":42.216,"end":61.652,"text":"走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對 當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好 謝謝 那請回好 我們現在請這個調查局去講"},{"start":68.157,"end":76.812,"text":"委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎"},{"start":77.942,"end":99.002,"text":"不是 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表"},{"start":100.123,"end":114.7,"text":"那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛"},{"start":118.044,"end":134.581,"text":"那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來"},{"start":136.363,"end":160.611,"text":"那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少"},{"start":163.547,"end":186.593,"text":"您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要"},{"start":187.433,"end":207.237,"text":"但是有些因為他不是公務員 因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員 他是約聘僱人員的 就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核 那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是"},{"start":209.219,"end":228.38,"text":"譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職"},{"start":231.27,"end":259.662,"text":"不是說一定不能 就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽 你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求"},{"start":260.796,"end":279.926,"text":"我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據"},{"start":281.618,"end":292.907,"text":"那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛"},{"start":293.783,"end":320.115,"text":"那這個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說 如果立法院不同意"},{"start":321.36,"end":347.258,"text":"立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行"},{"start":356.324,"end":365.249,"text":"不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們"},{"start":373.877,"end":398.452,"text":"機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎"},{"start":401.601,"end":425.646,"text":"地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動"},{"start":427.266,"end":453.652,"text":"台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動"},{"start":456.427,"end":466.481,"text":"人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集"},{"start":468.922,"end":472.885,"text":"假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入"},{"start":494.78,"end":520.879,"text":"現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長"},{"start":522.13,"end":532.243,"text":"就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊"},{"start":537.55,"end":552.404,"text":"希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應"},{"start":561.466,"end":581.84,"text":"我的意思是說 比如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂"},{"start":584.38,"end":603.588,"text":"恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了"},{"start":604.088,"end":630.524,"text":"全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個"},{"start":632.025,"end":656.571,"text":"被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題"},{"start":657.191,"end":672.213,"text":"所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為"},{"start":673.234,"end":688.924,"text":"因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵"},{"start":689.964,"end":718.644,"text":"就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊"},{"start":719.705,"end":730.653,"text":"大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我先請國安局副局長。"],["主席：麻煩國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["王委員義川：副局長好。請問一下，現在在國安局上班的人，有沒有人不用經過特殊查核？"],["黃副局長明昭：基本上我們任用的人員都要經過特殊的查核。"],["王委員義川：全部嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員義川：只要是走進國安局上班的人？"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["王委員義川：走進國安局上班、那個門裡面的人，每個人都要經過查核？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員義川：沒有任何一個例外？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，當然工友沒有做查核，但正式人員，包括我們的志願役人員都一定要做過查核。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝，那請回。","我們現在請調查局局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["王委員義川：局長，我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭，有對象的一覽表嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：這個一覽表是調查局提的嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不是，這個特查辦法是人事行政總處主管的，是由各機關提出他們可能接密等等，跟國安有關、重大利益有關的，由機關提出來，人總訂一個附表出來之後……"],["王委員義川：各個機關提，然後就成為那個附表？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：如果機關沒有提，就不會進到裡頭，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對，因為我們不知道機關哪些人有接密的條件。"],["王委員義川：OK，你今天的報告裡頭提到，原來人數只有1,328位。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：好，可是不包括重大政策規劃執行之政務人員、協助機關處理的秘書、機要人員、約聘僱人員、立法院的職員跟立法院的助理，不包括這些。"],["陳局長白立：目前都沒有。"],["王委員義川：所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：卓院長指示先納入，就是跟政務有關的這些人，然後在相關約聘僱的辦法裡頭，就已經呈現他自願辦理，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對。"],["王委員義川：如果不願意簽的就不要來當這個職務……"],["陳局長白立：對，可能就不要用。"],["王委員義川：是這個意思，那會擴及到多少人？"],["陳局長白立：目前的人數……"],["王委員義川：你們的報告是寫1,008，對嗎？"],["陳局長白立：跟委員報告，行政院院長有開過會，現在大概就是階段性，第一階段是行政院所屬機關，本來政務人員都排除，但現在要求把政務人員全部都納入。再來就是主任秘書以上也全部都要，包含他的機要、秘書等等的都要。但因為母法是公務人員任用法，有些人他不是公務人員，是約聘僱人員的就用契約去規範他，你要簽了這個契約、要同意接受特殊查核，才會任用。"],["王委員義川：這一些人的定義是各個單位自己提，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：是，還是要各單位。"],["王委員義川：譬如外交部部長的辦公室主任，外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員，這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能是……他如果不簽這一個自願查同意書的話，那他就不能來這裡任職？"],["陳局長白立：不是說一定不能，主管就要考慮，既然這個人不願意簽，你還要不要用他？可以調整去其他不接密的工作。"],["王委員義川：這樣會不會草木皆兵？"],["陳局長白立：就是儘量縮小到必要的範圍。"],["王委員義川：因為報告裡面也提到立法院立委的國會助理。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：現在如果有個別立法委員要求：我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核。你們會收嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個可能就要立法院先訂定相關的辦法，我們依照立法院的一些辦法來執行。"],["王委員義川：不是，立法委員自願啊！"],["陳局長白立：自願的話，我們目前沒有法源依據。"],["王委員義川：那為什麼行政單位就有依據？"],["陳局長白立：那個是行政院以下的，但立法院不歸行政院管。"],["王委員義川：就是外交部聘的約聘僱人員，部長認為這個有必要，那我就納入，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：那立法委員，我認為我的國會助理有必要，我要納入，這樣不行？"],["陳局長白立：目前沒有法源的依據。五院除了行政院以外，其他四院有自己特查的一些相關辦法，在執行上才會有依據。"],["王委員義川：意思就是，如果立法院不同意，不要講不同意，就是立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院願意……"],["陳局長白立：哪些應該要……"],["王委員義川：哪些人應該查……"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了？"],["陳局長白立：對，我們就沒有執行依據。"],["王委員義川：今天假設立法院院長說，我聘了立院的顧問，聘的立法院顧問是有薪水的，這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核，這樣也不行？"],["陳局長白立：他們不是公務人員任用法裡面規範的對象。"],["王委員義川：所以還是要回到個別機關，他們如果……你們收件是以機關為單位？"],["陳局長白立：對，機關會發文給我們。"],["王委員義川：好，那我舉一個例子，假如是這樣，臺中市政府交通局局長室的約聘僱人員，臺中市政府交通局發一個文說這個幫我列入特殊查核，你們收不收？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你講的這個又是另外一個，地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面。"],["王委員義川：那也不能加？"],["陳局長白立：可以加，人總如果把它加進來的話就可以。"],["王委員義川：對，我現在就是說，如果交通局發一個文通知人總，把局長的約聘僱秘書納入，這個機制要怎麼進行？"],["陳局長白立：應該是由臺中市政府發動，告知人總他們這些單位的什麼職務有接觸機密，應該要做特殊查核，把它公告。"],["王委員義川：好。會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提，這些機關、這些職務人員都沒有主動提，調查局認為這些人應該納入，或者是國家的哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了，誰可以發動？"],["陳局長白立：人事行政總處可以發動。"],["王委員義川：人事行政總處對國家安全有特殊的……"],["陳局長白立：它可以來召集。"],["王委員義川：它不會主動召集。"],["陳局長白立：它可以來召集。"],["王委員義川：它不會主動召集啦！我是說假設現在有一個職務，我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過的，原來那個職務會影響到。"],["陳局長白立：有可能。"],["王委員義川：總會有一個單位來發動，覺得糟了！這幾個位置應該要把它納入，那麼那個發動的人是誰？發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧？現在看起來是行政院院長，覺得這些人應該要納入，因為現在的規定沒有納入，現在報告是提到卓院長發現這些人沒有納入，所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入，總不能什麼事情都是行政院院長來發動嘛！"],["陳局長白立：現在院長是指示政委統籌這件事情，所以政委有召集過幾次會議。"],["王委員義川：我再請問一下國安局副局長，你一邊走，我一邊問。國安局如果發現有一些職務，譬如你們在做相關分析的時候，發現某一些職務確實也應該納入，你們會循什麼樣的途徑，希望人總等各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核？"],["黃副局長明昭：如果需要特殊查核，因為涉及國家機密的部分，我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施，如果有發現這個問題，我們會循國安體系反映。"],["王委員義川：我的意思是，譬如全國的紅綠燈、號誌，因為我以前當局長的時候，臺中調查局來找我們，他們提到紅綠燈的安全，如果有一天入侵了我們紅綠燈的系統，臺中市的號誌大亂，恐怕很危險，所以它希望檢核我們紅綠燈控制相關安全的行控中心，也就是如果國安局也認為這件事情確實很嚴重，如果有一天，全臺灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了、全部都不能運作了、全部都怎樣了，如果被國安局認定這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響，會不會有相關的建議？我是說這個建議的發動會是在你們這個單位，還是臺灣有哪一個單位可以說他們發現這幾個位置、這幾個職務其實滿重要的，它有可能影響到國家安全、它可能會被侵入，這些相關的人員可能會被吸收，諸如此類的事情，站在國安局的立場，到底哪一個單位可以去提議這些應該要納入？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們如果有發現情資進來的時候，比方行政院的數發部，因為這個涉及到資安的問題、駭侵資安的問題，所以是由行政院的數發部統籌處理。"],["王委員義川：就是你們把資訊給數發部，數發部再去研議？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，後續的研議及推動。"],["王委員義川：OK，我是希望接下來，因為今天調查局的報告裡頭寫了滿多新的職位，這些利害關係人會發現原來他也有，原來他也會被要求要自願，所以第一個，我擔心草木皆兵，無限上綱到一定程度：第二個，如果沒有被你納入的，而國家認為這些人也應該被納入，這樣的一個機制，總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案，然後行政院長說這個要納入、那個也要納入，看起來這個制度上是不太對啦！所以這個題目看是不是請國安局、調查局或者是人總，大家商討一下這種主動、被動的機制到底是什麼，接下來才能把制度弄到制度比較完善。好，謝謝你們。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}