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\"掌\", \"start\": 751.473, \"end\": 751.673, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 751.673, \"end\": 751.834, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 751.834, \"end\": 752.034, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 752.034, \"end\": 752.274, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"援\", \"start\": 752.274, \"end\": 752.974, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 752.974, \"end\": 753.114, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 753.114, \"end\": 753.314, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 753.314, \"end\": 754.075, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 754.075, \"end\": 754.435, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 754.435, \"end\": 754.635, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 754.635, \"end\": 754.795, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 754.795, \"end\": 755.455, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 755.455, 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0.878}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 843.642, \"end\": 843.822, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 843.822, \"end\": 844.002, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 844.002, \"end\": 844.323, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 844.323, \"end\": 844.443, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 844.443, \"end\": 845.344, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 845.344, \"end\": 845.364, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,138 --> 00:00:09,959\n法務部、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署\n\n2\n00:00:28,692 --> 00:00:43,538\n普京同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度\n\n3\n00:00:55,803 --> 00:01:18,062\n似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府國安會外交部那連環報了這個共諜案\n\n4\n00:01:22,546 --> 00:01:47,776\n那涉案的人員讓人家非常的這個驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的這個國安整個制度有點名存實往雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應\n\n5\n00:01:49,036 --> 00:02:08,348\n也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下\n\n6\n00:02:10,009 --> 00:02:37,328\n那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流\n\n7\n00:02:39,830 --> 00:03:01,519\n的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理聖楚英那麼國安會顧問\n\n8\n00:03:04,810 --> 00:03:25,479\n吳尚宇那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的\n\n9\n00:03:25,839 --> 00:03:40,204\n似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚\n\n10\n00:03:41,244 --> 00:04:05,484\n所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同巨文所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核\n\n11\n00:04:06,024 --> 00:04:26,617\n那明定的任用前要查核再職要定期查核還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢從幾位在針對先前也有委員問過的那調單位的查核然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等看來都沒有什麼\n\n12\n00:04:27,594 --> 00:04:42,960\n在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全\n\n13\n00:04:43,900 --> 00:05:02,700\n不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務那包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員那這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞\n\n14\n00:05:03,681 --> 00:05:23,896\n那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢\n\n15\n00:05:29,421 --> 00:05:48,563\n這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的\n\n16\n00:05:49,464 --> 00:06:06,581\n這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加那這個增加齁那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁\n\n17\n00:06:07,802 --> 00:06:19,253\n如果說因為目前有特殊查有1328個特殊查如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話\n\n18\n00:06:23,797 --> 00:06:38,866\n28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有這個行政院有這樣的一個指示\n\n19\n00:06:39,434 --> 00:06:56,652\n好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的\n\n20\n00:06:59,835 --> 00:07:06,862\n未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致\n\n21\n00:07:15,305 --> 00:07:38,024\n在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核\n\n22\n00:07:41,087 --> 00:07:57,497\n那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出\n\n23\n00:07:58,903 --> 00:08:13,623\n這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來\n\n24\n00:08:14,144 --> 00:08:35,126\n所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對\n\n25\n00:08:36,607 --> 00:08:53,884\n跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔\n\n26\n00:08:56,527 --> 00:09:11,587\n跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點\n\n27\n00:09:12,828 --> 00:09:24,492\n好的那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的權屬跟問責的這個單位\n\n28\n00:09:42,139 --> 00:10:09,698\n所以本期今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了結果一查查核欸都好幾年了欸那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要一個所在\n\n29\n00:10:10,658 --> 00:10:16,003\n所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬的機制\n\n30\n00:10:18,567 --> 00:10:41,287\n跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開\n\n31\n00:10:43,203 --> 00:11:11,632\n好的謝謝本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的\n\n32\n00:11:12,452 --> 00:11:38,724\n好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的\n\n33\n00:11:40,545 --> 00:11:57,418\n現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思國安局好像是代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過\n\n34\n00:11:58,078 --> 00:12:15,905\n借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度\n\n35\n00:12:19,107 --> 00:12:37,457\n像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都有掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?\n\n36\n00:12:38,477 --> 00:12:48,411\n我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦\n\n37\n00:12:50,925 --> 00:13:14,083\n所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage\n\n38\n00:13:15,062 --> 00:13:28,881\n我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項\n\n39\n00:13:30,229 --> 00:13:50,566\n所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題\n\n40\n00:13:51,767 --> 00:14:05,364\n好所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟組織幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9138\t9959\t法務部、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署\n28692\t43538\t普京同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度\n55803\t78062\t似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府 國安會 外交部那連環報了這個共諜案\n82546\t107776\t那涉案的人員讓人家非常的這個驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的這個國安整個制度有點名存實往雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應\n109036\t128348\t也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下\n130009\t157328\t那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流\n159830\t181519\t的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理聖楚英那麼國安會顧問\n184810\t205479\t吳尚宇那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的\n205839\t220204\t似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚\n221244\t245484\t所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同巨文所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核\n246024\t266617\t那明定的 任用前要查核 再職要定期查核 還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢 從幾位在針對 先前也有委員問過的那調單位的查核 然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等 看來都沒有什麼\n267594\t282960\t在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全\n283900\t302700\t不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務那包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員那這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞\n303681\t323896\t那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢\n329421\t348563\t這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的\n349464\t366581\t這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加 那這個增加齁那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁\n367802\t379253\t如果說因為目前有特殊查有1328個特殊查如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話\n383797\t398866\t28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有 這個行政院有這樣的一個指示\n399434\t416652\t好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的\n419835\t426862\t未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致\n435305\t458024\t在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核\n461087\t477497\t那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出\n478903\t493623\t這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來\n494144\t515126\t所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對\n516607\t533884\t跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔\n536527\t551587\t跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點\n552828\t564492\t好的 那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的權屬跟問責的這個單位\n582139\t609698\t所以本期今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了結果一查查核欸都好幾年了欸那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要一個所在\n610658\t616003\t所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬的機制\n618567\t641287\t跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是 有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開\n643203\t671632\t好的 謝謝本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的\n672452\t698724\t好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的\n700545\t717418\t現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思 國安局好像是 代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過\n718078\t735905\t借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度\n739107\t757457\t像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都有掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?\n758477\t768411\t我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦\n770925\t794083\t所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage\n795062\t808881\t我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項\n810229\t830566\t所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題\n831767\t845364\t好 所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟 組織 幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好 謝謝\n","txt":"法務部、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署\n普京同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度\n似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府 國安會 外交部那連環報了這個共諜案\n那涉案的人員讓人家非常的這個驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的這個國安整個制度有點名存實往雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應\n也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下\n那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流\n的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理聖楚英那麼國安會顧問\n吳尚宇那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的\n似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚\n所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同巨文所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核\n那明定的 任用前要查核 再職要定期查核 還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢 從幾位在針對 先前也有委員問過的那調單位的查核 然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等 看來都沒有什麼\n在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全\n不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務那包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員那這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞\n那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢\n這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的\n這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加 那這個增加齁那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁\n如果說因為目前有特殊查有1328個特殊查如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話\n28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有 這個行政院有這樣的一個指示\n好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的\n未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致\n在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核\n那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出\n這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來\n所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對\n跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔\n跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點\n好的 那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的權屬跟問責的這個單位\n所以本期今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了結果一查查核欸都好幾年了欸那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要一個所在\n所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬的機制\n跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是 有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開\n好的 謝謝本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的\n好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的\n現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思 國安局好像是 代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過\n借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度\n像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都有掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?\n我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦\n所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage\n我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項\n所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題\n好 所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟 組織 幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.138 --> 00:09.959\n法務部、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署\n\n00:28.692 --> 00:43.538\n普京同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度\n\n00:55.803 --> 01:18.062\n似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府國安會外交部那連環報了這個共諜案\n\n01:22.546 --> 01:47.776\n那涉案的人員讓人家非常的這個驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的這個國安整個制度有點名存實往雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應\n\n01:49.036 --> 02:08.348\n也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下\n\n02:10.009 --> 02:37.328\n那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流\n\n02:39.830 --> 03:01.519\n的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理聖楚英那麼國安會顧問\n\n03:04.810 --> 03:25.479\n吳尚宇那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的\n\n03:25.839 --> 03:40.204\n似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚\n\n03:41.244 --> 04:05.484\n所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同巨文所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核\n\n04:06.024 --> 04:26.617\n那明定的任用前要查核再職要定期查核還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢從幾位在針對先前也有委員問過的那調單位的查核然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等看來都沒有什麼\n\n04:27.594 --> 04:42.960\n在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全\n\n04:43.900 --> 05:02.700\n不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務那包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員那這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞\n\n05:03.681 --> 05:23.896\n那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢\n\n05:29.421 --> 05:48.563\n這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的\n\n05:49.464 --> 06:06.581\n這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加那這個增加齁那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁\n\n06:07.802 --> 06:19.253\n如果說因為目前有特殊查有1328個特殊查如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話\n\n06:23.797 --> 06:38.866\n28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有這個行政院有這樣的一個指示\n\n06:39.434 --> 06:56.652\n好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的\n\n06:59.835 --> 07:06.862\n未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致\n\n07:15.305 --> 07:38.024\n在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核\n\n07:41.087 --> 07:57.497\n那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出\n\n07:58.903 --> 08:13.623\n這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來\n\n08:14.144 --> 08:35.126\n所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對\n\n08:36.607 --> 08:53.884\n跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔\n\n08:56.527 --> 09:11.587\n跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點\n\n09:12.828 --> 09:24.492\n好的那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的權屬跟問責的這個單位\n\n09:42.139 --> 10:09.698\n所以本期今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了結果一查查核欸都好幾年了欸那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要一個所在\n\n10:10.658 --> 10:16.003\n所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬的機制\n\n10:18.567 --> 10:41.287\n跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開\n\n10:43.203 --> 11:11.632\n好的謝謝本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的\n\n11:12.452 --> 11:38.724\n好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的\n\n11:40.545 --> 11:57.418\n現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思國安局好像是代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過\n\n11:58.078 --> 12:15.905\n借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度\n\n12:19.107 --> 12:37.457\n像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都有掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?\n\n12:38.477 --> 12:48.411\n我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦\n\n12:50.925 --> 13:14.083\n所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage\n\n13:15.062 --> 13:28.881\n我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項\n\n13:30.229 --> 13:50.566\n所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題\n\n13:51.767 --> 14:05.364\n好所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟組織幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.138,"end":9.959,"text":"法務部、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署"},{"start":28.692,"end":43.538,"text":"普京同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度"},{"start":55.803,"end":78.062,"text":"似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府 國安會 外交部那連環報了這個共諜案"},{"start":82.546,"end":107.776,"text":"那涉案的人員讓人家非常的這個驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的這個國安整個制度有點名存實往雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應"},{"start":109.036,"end":128.348,"text":"也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下"},{"start":130.009,"end":157.328,"text":"那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流"},{"start":159.83,"end":181.519,"text":"的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理聖楚英那麼國安會顧問"},{"start":184.81,"end":205.479,"text":"吳尚宇那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的"},{"start":205.839,"end":220.204,"text":"似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚"},{"start":221.244,"end":245.484,"text":"所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同巨文所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核"},{"start":246.024,"end":266.617,"text":"那明定的 任用前要查核 再職要定期查核 還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢 從幾位在針對 先前也有委員問過的那調單位的查核 然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等 看來都沒有什麼"},{"start":267.594,"end":282.96,"text":"在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全"},{"start":283.9,"end":302.7,"text":"不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務那包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員那這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞"},{"start":303.681,"end":323.896,"text":"那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢"},{"start":329.421,"end":348.563,"text":"這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的"},{"start":349.464,"end":366.581,"text":"這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加 那這個增加齁那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁"},{"start":367.802,"end":379.253,"text":"如果說因為目前有特殊查有1328個特殊查如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話"},{"start":383.797,"end":398.866,"text":"28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有 這個行政院有這樣的一個指示"},{"start":399.434,"end":416.652,"text":"好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的"},{"start":419.835,"end":426.862,"text":"未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致"},{"start":435.305,"end":458.024,"text":"在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核"},{"start":461.087,"end":477.497,"text":"那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出"},{"start":478.903,"end":493.623,"text":"這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來"},{"start":494.144,"end":515.126,"text":"所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對"},{"start":516.607,"end":533.884,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔"},{"start":536.527,"end":551.587,"text":"跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點"},{"start":552.828,"end":564.492,"text":"好的 那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的權屬跟問責的這個單位"},{"start":582.139,"end":609.698,"text":"所以本期今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了結果一查查核欸都好幾年了欸那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要一個所在"},{"start":610.658,"end":616.003,"text":"所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬的機制"},{"start":618.567,"end":641.287,"text":"跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是 有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開"},{"start":643.203,"end":671.632,"text":"好的 謝謝本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的"},{"start":672.452,"end":698.724,"text":"好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的"},{"start":700.545,"end":717.418,"text":"現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思 國安局好像是 代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過"},{"start":718.078,"end":735.905,"text":"借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度"},{"start":739.107,"end":757.457,"text":"像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都有掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?"},{"start":758.477,"end":768.411,"text":"我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦"},{"start":770.925,"end":794.083,"text":"所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage"},{"start":795.062,"end":808.881,"text":"我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項"},{"start":810.229,"end":830.566,"text":"所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題"},{"start":831.767,"end":845.364,"text":"好 所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟 組織 幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時10分）謝謝主席。我這邊先請法務部、調查局、國安局、外交部跟人事行政總處。"],["主席：麻煩法務部、調查局、國安局、外交部、人事行政總處。"],["林委員倩綺：府院同仁，大家好。今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府、國安會，還有外交部等等報出來的共諜案，我們在這邊針對制度面還有未來的因應做個討論，所以本席今天的質詢針對國安漏洞，提出三個討論的議題，第一個是忠誠查核制度似乎失靈；第二個部分是總統府反滲透的破口，不過今天總統府也沒有人來，實在有點可惜；最後一個是中共現在對整個臺灣的系統性滲透，似乎已經到了包括黑幫、包括宮廟，所以針對這個部分本席要跟大家做個討論。","首先，我們剛才講的三個單位，總統府、國安會、外交部連環爆了共諜案，涉案的人員讓人家非常的驚訝，他們長期都接觸國家機密，但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核，顯示我們整個國安制度有點名存實亡。雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢，但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎沒有太多交代跟回應，也感覺到很無力。尤其對於這些應該被查核的人員當中，政務、約聘跟特聘的人員，如同你們所講的，沒有相關查核的依據，這是不是顯示了制度設計跟執行上的失敗呢？我想這個部分，我們應該來探討一下。接下來，今天總統府沒有代表來，非常可惜也不應該，因為感覺上總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了，針對這個部分，總統府秘書長應該要有一些政治責任的回應。最後是新型滲透的樣態在產生，我不知道整個國安局對於這個部分有沒有一些掌握？能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制，即時列管，還有跟異常團體對金流的走向能夠了解，這是我們守住國安底線很重要的一個關鍵。","所以第一個部分，也就是忠誠查核制度相對的失靈。先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題，包括總統府的助理盛礎纓、國安會顧問吳尚雨，你們剛才講他不在查核範圍，另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑，他也沒有經過定期的國安審查，這就是本席所講的動態查核狀況，但是我們聽起來，好像沒有一個單位能夠主動地做些什麼事，這就是本席所說的，似乎這樣的動態查核有一點失靈。這幾個單位在整個政治權力上來講，其實是非常核心的，這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案，社會各界都非常的震驚。這些高風險的症候，卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡，然後在過程當中，似乎也沒有一些警示的機制，目前查核的制度感覺好像形同具文。依照國家機密保護法第二條、第九條的規定，政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核，明定任用前要查核，在職要定期查核，還有離職前的審核。但是先前也有委員問過調單位的查核，是不是適用於查核的身分等等，看來在過往都沒有什麼責任，聽起來每一個單位都是別人的事情，這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑，因為缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制，導致查核成為「不查最安全」的行政慣性，所以現在面對非正式編制的涉密人員，如果沒有明確的法律義務，包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘技術人員，似乎是這整件事情的共同漏洞，這個部分是不是有必要立刻研議修正國家機密保護法，明定實質接觸機密者，不論其任用形式或編制身分，都應該受到法律查察？部長或局長是不是有一些回應或建議呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對委員提及增加特查、特殊查核名單的問題，行政院有規劃將行政院及所屬各機關（構）全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書、助理等有接觸到涉密的聘僱人員、主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的涉密約聘僱人員，納入辦理特查的對象，這個是有增加，根據調查局的統計，目前有特殊查核的有1,328個，依照行政院院長指示需要增加的，這部分是增加1,008人，這樣的話……"],["林委員倩綺：1,328人再增加1,008人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這樣的話，人數會增加到兩千多人，這部分是有這樣的指示。"],["林委員倩綺：目前有這樣的規劃就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，有，行政院有這樣的一個指示。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，本席在上次也聽到有委員針對換工作時的查核跟你們提出一些問題，所以相關動態查核，很重要的就是動態更新的能力，目前似乎都留在靜態入職時的查核，即使像部長剛才講的，未來就算有這樣一個規劃，似乎也都是在入職時的查核，但是上次很重要的一個問題是，當有人換單位之後，因為沒有事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的審核機制，導致任用進來之後，就變成很放任，然後在職時也沒有常態的追蹤制度，以目前涉案的幾個人員來看，是不是都有這樣的共通性？因為中間沒有再被查核，也沒有任何異常報告程序，像何仁傑這個最著名的例子，他換了單位後也沒有查核，第一次查核是他剛進入國安會時的查核，這似乎和風險控管的基本原則有一些衝突。我記得上一回你們說人事單位要主動提出來，請教人事總處的代表，你們要如何主動提出這樣的機制呢？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，依照任用法及相關授權法令的規定，各機關的職務數是由他們檢視業務所提報的，這是各機關……"],["林委員倩綺：所以它還關係到各機關，但是各機關的回應都說是人事單位要主動提出來，本席就覺得很confused，不知道你們內部的查核作業，如果業務單位沒有提給你們，是不是有點瀆職？又如果你們沒有主動查核，是不是又不夠負責？這是針對這樣的問題，本席在先前聽到大家的回應，看起來似乎沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事，本席這樣的認知不知道對不對？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，因為相關法規是寫國家安全或重大利益，而我們在請各機關檢視的時候，都有列舉一些國安、情治什麼什麼的內容，就是請各機關大概依照什麼樣的性質是屬於……"],["林委員倩綺：所以先前就有這樣，對不對？"],["李處長花書：對，對，但這是因為……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣看起來，這幾個單位都有點瀆職。"],["李處長花書：至於各機關內部的盤點，因為那是各機關內部行政處理的事務流程，在程序上，最後還是應該由首長做最後的決定，亦即哪一些職務要特查，應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，雖然今天你們有出來做這樣的說明，不過本席認為你們還是應該建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核制度，今天你雖然做這樣回應，認為各機關的業務主管應該要提出，可是看起來各業務單位都沒有主動提出來，所以在事情發生的時候，他們認為你們這邊應該提出來，感覺有點踢皮球的樣子，而本席聽了幾次，也聽不到真正的權屬和問責單位，因此本席今天先做這樣一個建議，就是駐外人員、高階幕僚或涉密單位的職員也應該納入定期審查，看你們要規劃什麼樣的審查方式，這樣才會有一個持續性跟及時性的查核，也就不會像這次發生這樣的事件，結果一查，查核都已經是好幾年前的事了，大部分的人都沒有經過定時或更新的查核，我想這是很重要的問題所在，所以人事總處在這個部分，是不是也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬機制？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，我們會遵照院長的指示，就揭密程度去訂定查核範圍、查核項目、查核頻率，以及確實督導各機關要如何檢視他們的特查職務數……"],["林委員倩綺：好，這個部分如果你們有比較具體的辦法出來，請把相關資料提供給本席參考，好不好？"],["李處長花書：是，這個辦法會會銜，到時候應該是會公開的。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。本來今天本席也想針對總統府和國安會做一些探討，結果他們都沒有人出席，這也已經不是第一次了，我覺得問題還蠻嚴重的，但我們卻沒有辦法在這邊探討問題，那他們的部分我只好先保留，希望哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面討論這個問題，不是只有問責而已，而是問題出在哪裡，是我們很想處理跟探討的。","最後，我要提醒一點，其實中共不只對我們的高階相關人員掌握非常透徹，近期的共諜案，其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了，據本席了解，目前中共結合黑幫、宮廟、地下金流、網絡與地方社團等的線狀跟網狀操控也非常嚴重，看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點。根據國安局的報告，中共其實有透過很多不同形式，譬如借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流來吸收臺灣的一些幫派分子，然後要他們刺探一些軍事機密，甚至在戰時製造混亂，什麼樣態都有，不知道國安局在這個部分目前掌握的程度為何？是不是可以做個回應？"],["黃副局長明昭：中共滲透的手法，我們大概都有掌握，剛剛委員所舉例的，比如黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等團體的方式，大概我們國安局都有掌握、有蒐源，然後有確切的……"],["林委員倩綺：對於目前你們的掌握，你覺得有多少比率的信心？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們情報掌握以後，認為涉及到國家安全的一些相關證據則會移給司法警察機關做後續偵辦。"],["林委員倩綺：你們過去都比較集中在軍政情報，還有敵情狀態，本席今天要提醒的是中共對於我們社會基層結構的滲透，希望國安局在這個部分的掌握也能夠更積極一點，所以請教一下，在本席所談及的基層結構部分，目前掌握的比率，你給自己打多少percentage？"],["黃副局長明昭：比率部分，我們沒辦法確切的說明，不過比方像村里長或者剛剛講到的宮廟或黑道幫派等等，在基層的這個層面，當然我們都會列為情蒐的要項。"],["林委員倩綺：本席在這邊就是要做這部分的提醒，因為先前幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了，基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的政治權力中心，當然在社會基層層面，如果再被這樣很大面積的滲透，我想我們國安就真的面臨一個很大的問題。最後也請警政署配合，針對這些宮廟、組織、幫派，能夠有相關的列管、有具體的事蹟，好不好？我們共同為我們的國安努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}