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{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 731.123, \"end\": 731.443, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 731.443, \"end\": 731.903, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 731.903, \"end\": 732.263, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 732.263, \"end\": 732.623, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 732.623, \"end\": 733.524, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"諜\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 733.524, \"end\": 733.824, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 733.824, \"end\": 733.844, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"動\"}]}, {\"start\": 734.804, \"end\": 759.961, \"text\": \"但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 734.804, \"end\": 734.984, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 734.984, \"end\": 735.144, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 735.144, \"end\": 735.304, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"我\", 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{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 812.809, \"end\": 812.93, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 812.93, \"end\": 813.19, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 813.19, \"end\": 813.33, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 813.33, \"end\": 813.67, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 813.67, \"end\": 813.69, \"score\": 0.4}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,125 --> 00:00:19,664\n好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為\n\n2\n00:00:23,428 --> 00:00:41,476\n這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識\n\n3\n00:00:42,436 --> 00:01:02,080\n但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套\n\n4\n00:01:02,620 --> 00:01:31,662\n所以在這邊我們一定要在做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局\n\n5\n00:01:32,903 --> 00:01:36,525\n副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到\n\n6\n00:01:57,937 --> 00:02:22,608\n之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保\n\n7\n00:02:23,248 --> 00:02:43,308\n那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼\n\n8\n00:02:44,885 --> 00:02:58,755\n導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押\n\n9\n00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:27,543\n的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進鑑\n\n10\n00:03:28,763 --> 00:03:44,437\n所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼\n\n11\n00:03:46,158 --> 00:04:10,453\n以這三個案子過去還有喔多多偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是就是到就是有詐領助理費也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大完全跟\n\n12\n00:04:13,855 --> 00:04:18,622\n並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的\n\n13\n00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:47,813\n跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關於金額交保的一個的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使都是要個案來判斷\n\n14\n00:04:48,573 --> 00:05:07,839\n我想這都是符合法律的規定沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準這個就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重\n\n15\n00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:25,091\n這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來\n\n16\n00:05:26,232 --> 00:05:52,999\n大概交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及供諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個供涉及供諜都羈押禁建\n\n17\n00:05:53,959 --> 00:06:16,078\n但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意說當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案\n\n18\n00:06:17,139 --> 00:06:46,152\n的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個聖楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎現在是20萬交保嗎這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面就是湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內\n\n19\n00:06:46,892 --> 00:06:52,175\n這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案的我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才想列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長\n\n20\n00:07:14,397 --> 00:07:34,574\n好局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛對不對是\n\n21\n00:07:36,254 --> 00:07:58,676\n按照你們的說法那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃還沒有做最後的確認\n\n22\n00:08:00,362 --> 00:08:28,750\n所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路\n\n23\n00:08:30,091 --> 00:08:48,828\n從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該\n\n24\n00:08:50,529 --> 00:09:10,607\n好所以這個應該是確定的增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院\n\n25\n00:09:12,223 --> 00:09:28,776\n我不曉得你的意思是什麼因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來\n\n26\n00:09:30,382 --> 00:09:45,130\n什麼叫很多立委提出來如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定比如說我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個中層查核\n\n27\n00:09:53,194 --> 00:10:16,709\n那所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以我不想所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要\n\n28\n00:10:17,389 --> 00:10:39,894\n必須要納入特殊查核的話那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案而是必須要成為\n\n29\n00:10:40,774 --> 00:11:06,371\n通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能\n\n30\n00:11:07,412 --> 00:11:15,643\n完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情\n\n31\n00:11:17,079 --> 00:11:45,619\n都沒有所以不管總統府國安會或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有我們調查局不會這是確定的喔因為我們這邊確定非常確定確定沒有因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封聲\n\n32\n00:11:47,557 --> 00:12:13,844\n有從各種管道得到風聲比如說聖楚音在辦你確定完全沒有我非常確定我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外對不起再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長請教一個問題過去之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動\n\n33\n00:12:14,804 --> 00:12:39,961\n但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此\n\n34\n00:12:45,685 --> 00:13:10,464\n根據我們的掌握我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半\n\n35\n00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:33,690\n有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序沒有我只是說總共大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7125\t19664\t好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為\n23428\t41476\t這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識\n42436\t62080\t但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套\n62620\t91662\t所以在這邊我們一定要在做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好 那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局\n92903\t96525\t副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到\n117937\t142608\t之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保\n143248\t163308\t那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼\n164885\t178755\t導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押\n179836\t207543\t的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進鑑\n208763\t224437\t所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼\n226158\t250453\t以這三個案子 過去還有喔 多多偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是 就是到就是有詐領助理費 也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好 那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大 完全跟\n253855\t258622\t並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的\n261019\t287813\t跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關於金額交保的一個的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使都是要個案來判斷\n288573\t307839\t我想這都是符合法律的規定沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準 這個就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問 如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重\n309516\t325091\t這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來\n326232\t352999\t大概交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及供諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個供涉及供諜都羈押禁建\n353959\t376078\t但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意說當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案\n377139\t406152\t的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個聖楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎現在是20萬交保嗎這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面就是湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內\n406892\t412175\t這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案的我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才想列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長\n434397\t454574\t好 局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛 對不對是\n456254\t478676\t按照你們的說法 那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位 是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠 對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃 還沒有做最後的確認\n480362\t508750\t所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路\n510091\t528828\t從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該\n530529\t550607\t好 所以這個應該是確定的 增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔 我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院\n552223\t568776\t我不曉得你的意思是什麼 因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的 這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來\n570382\t585130\t什麼叫很多立委提出來如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定比如說我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個中層查核\n593194\t616709\t那所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以我不想 所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要\n617389\t639894\t必須要納入特殊查核的話 那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說 它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案 我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案 而是必須要成為\n640774\t666371\t通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能\n667412\t675643\t完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情\n677079\t705619\t都沒有所以不管總統府 國安會 或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有 我們調查局不會這是確定的喔 因為我們這邊確定 非常確定確定沒有因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封聲\n707557\t733844\t有從各種管道得到風聲 比如說聖楚音在辦你確定 完全沒有我非常確定 我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外 對不起 再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長 請教一個問題過去 之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動\n734804\t759961\t但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此\n765685\t790464\t根據我們的掌握我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半\n791516\t813690\t有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序沒有 我只是說總共大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好 謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為\n這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識\n但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套\n所以在這邊我們一定要在做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好 那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局\n副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到\n之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保\n那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼\n導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押\n的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進鑑\n所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼\n以這三個案子 過去還有喔 多多偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是 就是到就是有詐領助理費 也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好 那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大 完全跟\n並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的\n跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關於金額交保的一個的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使都是要個案來判斷\n我想這都是符合法律的規定沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準 這個就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問 如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重\n這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來\n大概交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及供諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個供涉及供諜都羈押禁建\n但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意說當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案\n的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個聖楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎現在是20萬交保嗎這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面就是湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內\n這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案的我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才想列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長\n好 局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛 對不對是\n按照你們的說法 那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位 是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠 對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃 還沒有做最後的確認\n所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路\n從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該\n好 所以這個應該是確定的 增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔 我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院\n我不曉得你的意思是什麼 因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的 這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來\n什麼叫很多立委提出來如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定比如說我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個中層查核\n那所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以我不想 所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要\n必須要納入特殊查核的話 那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說 它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案 我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案 而是必須要成為\n通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能\n完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情\n都沒有所以不管總統府 國安會 或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有 我們調查局不會這是確定的喔 因為我們這邊確定 非常確定確定沒有因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封聲\n有從各種管道得到風聲 比如說聖楚音在辦你確定 完全沒有我非常確定 我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外 對不起 再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長 請教一個問題過去 之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動\n但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此\n根據我們的掌握我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半\n有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序沒有 我只是說總共大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.125 --> 00:19.664\n好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為\n\n00:23.428 --> 00:41.476\n這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識\n\n00:42.436 --> 01:02.080\n但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套\n\n01:02.620 --> 01:31.662\n所以在這邊我們一定要在做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局\n\n01:32.903 --> 01:36.525\n副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到\n\n01:57.937 --> 02:22.608\n之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保\n\n02:23.248 --> 02:43.308\n那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼\n\n02:44.885 --> 02:58.755\n導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押\n\n02:59.836 --> 03:27.543\n的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進鑑\n\n03:28.763 --> 03:44.437\n所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼\n\n03:46.158 --> 04:10.453\n以這三個案子過去還有喔多多偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是就是到就是有詐領助理費也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大完全跟\n\n04:13.855 --> 04:18.622\n並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的\n\n04:21.019 --> 04:47.813\n跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關於金額交保的一個的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使都是要個案來判斷\n\n04:48.573 --> 05:07.839\n我想這都是符合法律的規定沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準這個就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重\n\n05:09.516 --> 05:25.091\n這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來\n\n05:26.232 --> 05:52.999\n大概交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及供諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個供涉及供諜都羈押禁建\n\n05:53.959 --> 06:16.078\n但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意說當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案\n\n06:17.139 --> 06:46.152\n的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個聖楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎現在是20萬交保嗎這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面就是湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內\n\n06:46.892 --> 06:52.175\n這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案的我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才想列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長\n\n07:14.397 --> 07:34.574\n好局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛對不對是\n\n07:36.254 --> 07:58.676\n按照你們的說法那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃還沒有做最後的確認\n\n08:00.362 --> 08:28.750\n所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路\n\n08:30.091 --> 08:48.828\n從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該\n\n08:50.529 --> 09:10.607\n好所以這個應該是確定的增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院\n\n09:12.223 --> 09:28.776\n我不曉得你的意思是什麼因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來\n\n09:30.382 --> 09:45.130\n什麼叫很多立委提出來如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定比如說我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個中層查核\n\n09:53.194 --> 10:16.709\n那所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以我不想所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要\n\n10:17.389 --> 10:39.894\n必須要納入特殊查核的話那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案而是必須要成為\n\n10:40.774 --> 11:06.371\n通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能\n\n11:07.412 --> 11:15.643\n完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情\n\n11:17.079 --> 11:45.619\n都沒有所以不管總統府國安會或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有我們調查局不會這是確定的喔因為我們這邊確定非常確定確定沒有因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封聲\n\n11:47.557 --> 12:13.844\n有從各種管道得到風聲比如說聖楚音在辦你確定完全沒有我非常確定我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外對不起再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長請教一個問題過去之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動\n\n12:14.804 --> 12:39.961\n但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此\n\n12:45.685 --> 13:10.464\n根據我們的掌握我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半\n\n13:11.516 --> 13:33.690\n有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序沒有我只是說總共大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.125,"end":19.664,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為"},{"start":23.428,"end":41.476,"text":"這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識"},{"start":42.436,"end":62.08,"text":"但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套"},{"start":62.62,"end":91.662,"text":"所以在這邊我們一定要在做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好 那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局"},{"start":92.903,"end":96.525,"text":"副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到"},{"start":117.937,"end":142.608,"text":"之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保"},{"start":143.248,"end":163.308,"text":"那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼"},{"start":164.885,"end":178.755,"text":"導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押"},{"start":179.836,"end":207.543,"text":"的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進鑑"},{"start":208.763,"end":224.437,"text":"所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼"},{"start":226.158,"end":250.453,"text":"以這三個案子 過去還有喔 多多偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是 就是到就是有詐領助理費 也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好 那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大 完全跟"},{"start":253.855,"end":258.622,"text":"並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的"},{"start":261.019,"end":287.813,"text":"跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關於金額交保的一個的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使都是要個案來判斷"},{"start":288.573,"end":307.839,"text":"我想這都是符合法律的規定沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準 這個就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問 如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重"},{"start":309.516,"end":325.091,"text":"這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來"},{"start":326.232,"end":352.999,"text":"大概交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及供諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個供涉及供諜都羈押禁建"},{"start":353.959,"end":376.078,"text":"但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意說當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案"},{"start":377.139,"end":406.152,"text":"的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個聖楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎現在是20萬交保嗎這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面就是湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內"},{"start":406.892,"end":412.175,"text":"這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案的我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才想列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長"},{"start":434.397,"end":454.574,"text":"好 局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛 對不對是"},{"start":456.254,"end":478.676,"text":"按照你們的說法 那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位 是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠 對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃 還沒有做最後的確認"},{"start":480.362,"end":508.75,"text":"所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路"},{"start":510.091,"end":528.828,"text":"從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該"},{"start":530.529,"end":550.607,"text":"好 所以這個應該是確定的 增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔 我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院"},{"start":552.223,"end":568.776,"text":"我不曉得你的意思是什麼 因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的 這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來"},{"start":570.382,"end":585.13,"text":"什麼叫很多立委提出來如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定比如說我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個中層查核"},{"start":593.194,"end":616.709,"text":"那所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以我不想 所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要"},{"start":617.389,"end":639.894,"text":"必須要納入特殊查核的話 那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說 它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案 我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案 而是必須要成為"},{"start":640.774,"end":666.371,"text":"通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能"},{"start":667.412,"end":675.643,"text":"完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情"},{"start":677.079,"end":705.619,"text":"都沒有所以不管總統府 國安會 或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有 我們調查局不會這是確定的喔 因為我們這邊確定 非常確定確定沒有因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封聲"},{"start":707.557,"end":733.844,"text":"有從各種管道得到風聲 比如說聖楚音在辦你確定 完全沒有我非常確定 我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外 對不起 再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長 請教一個問題過去 之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動"},{"start":734.804,"end":759.961,"text":"但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此"},{"start":765.685,"end":790.464,"text":"根據我們的掌握我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半"},{"start":791.516,"end":813.69,"text":"有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序沒有 我只是說總共大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時24分）謝謝主席。主席，在我質詢之前，仍然要針對總統府和國安會沒有派代表來參加這次司法及法制委員會的專題報告提出質疑，事實上，這兩個單位都已經被證實有共諜涉入，這是非常嚴重的事情，尤其賴政府現在認定中共是境外敵對勢力，也要求升高我們整個的國安意識，但是今天在我們的最高單位，總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜，但是這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加、來報告，我覺得不但是藐視國會，也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套，所以在這邊我們一定要再譴責，尤其國安會秘書長……其實包含國防及外交委員會也曾經排會，然後我們司法及法制委員會也排會，但是都不到立法院來報告，我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視共諜案對於我們國安造成的影響。","主席，接下來我請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有國安局副局長。"],["主席：國安局副局長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有調查局局長。"],["主席：調查局局長。"],["王委員鴻薇：我先請教部長，在這次共諜案裡面，除了這次涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外，另外大家也特別關注到……之前大家也提到盛礎纓，他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代就已經擔任助理，然後也遊走我們非常多位立委的辦公室，包含許智傑還有郭昱晴委員，以及羅美玲委員。後來盛礎纓是以20萬元交保，大家就在質疑，共諜案這麼嚴重的涉案情節是以20萬元交保。但是如果我們再去比較其他的，比如最近社會高度關注的挖眼案，鄰居之間吵架，然後挖了雙眼導致永久性的失明，這個案子是12萬元交保。接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚，現在檢調全臺大搜索、大羈押，有關於連署民進黨立委的案子，這裡面包含我們之前也提到，4位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保，更不要說最近包含臺北市黨部的主委黃呂錦茹在內，還有最近包含臺中市黨部的書記長在內，非常多人都被羈押禁見。請問部長，請問共諜案的情節是不是比挖眼案……就是跟挖眼案，還有你所謂的偽造文書，到底我們交保金額的評斷標準是什麼？以這三個案子……過去還有喔！如果是偽造文書，過去也有林宜瑾委員涉入的詐領助理費，也有偽造文書，他的助理大概最高也是10萬元交保，態樣有這麼多，但是這個交保金額對我們社會一般大眾來講，覺得這個情節重大並不符合比例原則，所以請問一下部長，請問我們的交保金額是怎麼定的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，檢察官在涉及不同案件的審理都會秉持客觀公正的執法態度，但是每個個案的情節是不同的，有關於交保金額的多寡，或者要不要羈押，以及強制處分權等等的行使，都是要個案來判斷，我想這都是符合法律的規定，沒什麼不同的……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有什麼標準可言？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是說沒什麼標準，這個就是要個案的判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我想請問，如果以罷免民進黨立委的案件來講，是不是其涉案會比共諜案更嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的情況不同，我沒辦法就個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：它對於國家社會安全的危害……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法按照個案答復。"],["王委員鴻薇：無法相比？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的情形不同，因為我不是承辦檢察官，我沒辦法就個案說明交保金額多少或者要不要羈押，這個要由他來判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個……一般來說有一把尺，所以我在講，如果按照這個交保金額來看，連署民進黨立委的危害情節比涉及共諜案更嚴重、比挖眼案更嚴重、比造成人家永久失明更嚴重嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其他涉及共諜的都羈押禁見。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，但是還是有一位是交保。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是個案的案件不一樣、情況不一樣，我沒辦法跟委員說到底是要交保或羈押，因為每個個案的情形不一樣，所以委員說為什麼是交保，難道共諜不嚴重嗎？共諜當然是很嚴重的行為，但是每個個案是由承辦檢察官按照個案不同的狀況，做不同強制處分權的行使，所以你說……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，盛礎纓這位助理目前仍然是交保中嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是20萬交保。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是20萬交保？"],["鄭部長銘謙：嗯。"],["王委員鴻薇：當時大家也談到很多，既然涉及共諜案，其他人都被抓起來，他可不可以在外面湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑嫌疑等等，有沒有考慮在內？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官都會通盤考量，個案的部分，我沒辦法幫檢察官回答這個問題，因為個案是檢察官按照判斷……"],["王委員鴻薇：我必須要講，我剛剛列出這幾個交保的金額案例，這跟我們一般民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的不同。","我想請問一下調查局局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長，在你們的報告裡面談到，這次因為涉及的共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多，特別談到關於忠誠查核的對象，現在行政院要把忠誠查核對象擴大，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：按照你們的說法，現在行政院會把原來的忠誠查核對象，從一千三百多位增加到兩千三百多位是嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前第一階段希望能夠……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個已經是確認的事情了嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前朝這個方向在規劃，還沒有做最後的確認。"],["王委員鴻薇：所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思？你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員？特別是跟在首長旁邊約聘僱的助理、秘書，因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類人員，老實說，以前很多都是首長一路帶著，像吳釗燮的何仁傑就是如此，他去哪裡就把他帶到哪裡，從民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去。有關於這一些首長旁邊的助理、機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內？"],["陳局長白立：應該。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個應該是確定的，增加1,008人。"],["陳局長白立：目前就是朝這個方向在規劃，但是因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：那我另外請問你，在你的報告裡面有講，你們也準備針對立法院，這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個我們尊重立法院。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得你的意思是什麼，因為你們是準備把它擴大。"],["陳局長白立：這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的，這個完全要尊重立法院。"],["王委員鴻薇：那為什麼會列入呢？"],["陳局長白立：因為很多立委也有提出來啊！對啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫很多委員提出來？"],["陳局長白立：很多委員也有提出來，如果他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核可不可以？但是我們就沒有任何的法……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我記得當時你的回答是你們現在沒有相關的規定……"],["陳局長白立：沒有法源依據。"],["王委員鴻薇：比如我王鴻薇懷疑我的助理，我覺得應該要做一下忠誠查核……"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你這個意思……我不懂，因為看到你的報告，感覺上你們是要全部擴大到立法院，包含對立法委員的忠誠查核，對於立法委員的助理……"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得……所以你這個報告是什麼意思？"],["陳局長白立：這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院，但是如果立法院覺得這個部分也很重要，必須要納入特殊查核的話，立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的規定辦法，我們才有一個執行的依據。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思是說，它必須變成一個通案，而不是今天以我這個個案，比如我王鴻薇請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核，所以它不能成為個案……"],["陳局長白立：沒辦法。"],["王委員鴻薇：而是必須要成為通案？"],["陳局長白立：一個通案。"],["王委員鴻薇：要成為通案。好，另外再請教，在你們辦這個共諜案的時候，比如立法委員的助理橫跨好幾位委員，像你們在辦盛礎纓的時候，你們有沒有通知他所屬辦公室的立委，然後告訴他要辦他的共諜案？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：完全沒有知會？"],["陳局長白立：不可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以同樣地，辦何仁傑的時候有沒有知會國安會，讓國安會知道這個事情？"],["陳局長白立：不可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以不管總統府、國安會或者立法委員，在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面，你們都沒有事先告知？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，我們調查局不會。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是確定的嗎？"],["陳局長白立：確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們這邊……"],["陳局長白立：非常確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為大家會質疑，為什麼有些人都可以事先先行離職，是不是事先已從各種管道得到風聲，比如說在辦盛礎纓？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：你確定完全沒有？"],["陳局長白立：我非常確定，我非常負責任地回答委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，再給我一點點時間，我請一下國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：請教一個問題，之前的軍情局局長曾經說，臺灣大概有5,000名共諜在活動，但是以我們現在所知道的，看起來只是非常非常的少數。如果我們過去掌握到大概有5,000名共諜在活動的話，以我們現在所進行偵辦、調查或起訴浮上台面的可謂非常非常之少。請問這5,000名的數目到底是太「膨風」還是事實上確實是如此？"],["黃副局長明昭：根據我們的掌握，我們手頭上沒有那麼多人，但對他個人的評論，我們就不加以置評，至於會不會把現有中籍人士在臺失聯的這些人算在裡面，我們沒辦法做一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以國安局現在手上掌握到的可疑數目字沒有這麼多？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有一半？有沒有兩、三千？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想這個數據就不方便在這邊……有些案件都進入偵辦的程序了。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我只是說total你們掌握到的人數大概是多少？不涉及個案。"],["黃副局長明昭：這個人數我們是有掌握，但是我這邊不方便說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是沒有5,000名這麼多而已？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}