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\"補\"}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 819.708, \"end\": 820.269, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 820.269, \"end\": 820.289, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,013 --> 00:00:21,342\n謝謝主席有請兩位不來我們請仁總仁總也不來仁總不來仁總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來調查局局長也請上台\n\n2\n00:00:42,154 --> 00:00:56,757\n兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦,\n\n3\n00:00:58,258 --> 00:01:22,390\n這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員召委,你也是程序委員召委剛好我們翁曉琳委員也是召委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點悲感,讓人覺得有點感慨\n\n4\n00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:48,570\n那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用\n\n5\n00:01:49,190 --> 00:02:07,305\n不任用免職辦理退休或支錢或撤銷這一個任用那特殊查核的部分啊就其實啊是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是呢我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們喔\n\n6\n00:02:12,415 --> 00:02:28,538\n社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑,就是說你在追查,你在這套查核的一個制度,你們過去有什麼弊端嗎?從2000多年到現在,那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口,那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下?\n\n7\n00:02:29,710 --> 00:02:55,299\n跟委員報告因為就是辦法規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼\n\n8\n00:02:55,979 --> 00:03:02,966\n其實你們到我都覺得任總到也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨\n\n9\n00:03:04,295 --> 00:03:27,201\n我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行\n\n10\n00:03:29,122 --> 00:03:46,983\n那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就可以開出來了?你以為兩禮拜急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:47,657 --> 00:04:03,051\n跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容\n\n12\n00:04:03,852 --> 00:04:29,946\n因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看\n\n13\n00:04:32,813 --> 00:04:41,858\n人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係\n\n14\n00:04:51,960 --> 00:05:16,017\n那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心啦在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎啦不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係裡面當事人的地位根本就不對等嘛\n\n15\n00:05:16,653 --> 00:05:39,745\n對不對然後你的衣物也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件\n\n16\n00:05:45,227 --> 00:05:53,731\n國民有期待可是呢偵辦起來又虎虎生風然後到最後呢常常都是一陣風後面就沒有人去追蹤了\n\n17\n00:05:57,535 --> 00:06:19,364\n這個要特別特別的謹慎今天我看這兩個委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦擔憂啦可是有犯罪你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦可是呢可是呢確實啊司法這一線那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦也要掌握清楚啦\n\n18\n00:06:19,764 --> 00:06:31,352\n所以我特別又要來就教的就是說像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會\n\n19\n00:06:36,282 --> 00:06:55,894\n到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議啦就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的不來啦\n\n20\n00:06:57,176 --> 00:07:14,088\n像我上禮拜禮拜禮拜年必須頂無憲政慣例的人都不來無憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的爭議的時候在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防可是呢我擔心到一點是什麼\n\n21\n00:07:15,632 --> 00:07:41,693\n立法院國安破口的部分你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項\n\n22\n00:07:43,956 --> 00:08:10,233\n一千三百二十八項的職務裡面那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已立法院要怎麼管自己\n\n23\n00:08:12,073 --> 00:08:30,598\n啊立法院有時候又沒人要死啊委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議\n\n24\n00:08:31,358 --> 00:08:50,664\n我們就是建議我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重國安不是講尊重我說你真正的想法你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據\n\n25\n00:08:52,084 --> 00:09:00,574\n這個喔大家在說跌啦國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好他就開始跟民進黨說你也跌你也共你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦但問題就是說國會裡面你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的他不會分黨派他不會分黨派\n\n26\n00:09:13,163 --> 00:09:15,804\n民進黨執政最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面國會助理或者是政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力中國對我們的影響是最大的可是重點就是說任何人執政的時候\n\n27\n00:09:33,169 --> 00:09:47,102\n他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這\n\n28\n00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:11,812\n當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳薇仁那個啊那也一樣啦在以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說\n\n29\n00:10:12,953 --> 00:10:32,247\n這些所謂的諜大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來國安局來國安局來\n\n30\n00:10:34,142 --> 00:10:49,694\n反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你再看你目前是否完成對中央五院跟信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點\n\n31\n00:10:53,862 --> 00:11:11,768\n我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞\n\n32\n00:11:12,228 --> 00:11:33,917\n你就不敢大膽說人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要補破網嘛\n\n33\n00:11:38,346 --> 00:12:05,771\n是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛所以你也緊錄他你也緊錄他這樣所以啦人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務赦命的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分\n\n34\n00:12:09,036 --> 00:12:10,758\n但是妳對日本人也是沒辦法妳這樣說也是沒辦法\n\n35\n00:12:32,716 --> 00:12:59,747\n跟委員報告那個院外的部分院外的部分那如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅\n\n36\n00:13:01,485 --> 00:13:29,981\n任何地方都不應該有特權啦咱不是這樣說?頂頭嘛局長應該是嘛官員也應該是嘛所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦這國家大家的啦這國家大家的啦現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦這官員大家可以做多久\n\n37\n00:13:31,597 --> 00:13:40,289\n國會議員也不能說做多久言所當然嘛不是這樣說制度有缺漏你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9013\t21342\t謝謝主席 有請兩位不來我們請仁總仁總也不來仁總不來 仁總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來 調查局局長也請上台\n42154\t56757\t兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦,\n58258\t82390\t這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員召委,你也是程序委員召委剛好我們翁曉琳委員也是召委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點悲感,讓人覺得有點感慨\n83450\t108570\t那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用\n109190\t127305\t不任用免職辦理退休或支錢或撤銷這一個任用那特殊查核的部分啊就其實啊是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是呢我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們喔\n132415\t148538\t社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑,就是說你在追查,你在這套查核的一個制度,你們過去有什麼弊端嗎?從2000多年到現在,那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口,那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下?\n149710\t175299\t跟委員報告因為就是辦法規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼\n175979\t182966\t其實你們到 我都覺得任總到也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨\n184295\t207201\t我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行\n209122\t226983\t那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就可以開出來了?你以為兩禮拜急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?\n227657\t243051\t跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容\n243852\t269946\t因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員 聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看\n272813\t281858\t人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係\n291960\t316017\t那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心啦在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎啦不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係裡面當事人的地位根本就不對等嘛\n316653\t339745\t對不對 然後你的衣物也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在 我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說 連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣 逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件\n345227\t353731\t國民有期待 可是呢 偵辦起來又虎虎生風然後到最後呢 常常都是一陣風 後面就沒有人去追蹤了\n357535\t379364\t這個要特別特別的謹慎今天我看這兩個委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦 擔憂啦可是有犯罪 你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦 可是呢 可是呢 確實啊司法這一線 那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦 也要掌握清楚啦\n379764\t391352\t所以我特別又要來就教的就是說像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會\n396282\t415894\t到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議啦就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的不來啦\n417176\t434088\t像我上禮拜禮拜 禮拜年必須頂 無憲政慣例的人都不來 無憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的爭議的時候 在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防 可是呢 我擔心到一點是什麼\n435632\t461693\t立法院 國安破口的部分 你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面 我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話 立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在 我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項\n463956\t490233\t一千三百二十八項的職務裡面那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院 立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能 你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律 那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已 立法院要怎麼管自己\n492073\t510598\t啊 立法院有時候又沒人要死啊 委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說 我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議\n511358\t530664\t我們就是建議 我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重 國安不是講尊重 我說你真正的想法你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據\n532084\t540574\t這個喔 大家在說跌啦 國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好 他就開始跟民進黨說 你也跌 你也共 你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦 但問題就是說 國會裡面 你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的 他不會分黨派 他不會分黨派\n553163\t555804\t民進黨執政 最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面 國會助理 或者是政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力 中國對我們的影響是最大的可是重點就是說 任何人執政的時候\n573169\t587102\t他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這\n597000\t611812\t當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的 前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳薇仁那個啊那也一樣啦在以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說\n612953\t632247\t這些所謂的諜 大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來 國安局來 國安局來\n634142\t649694\t反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的 我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你再看你目前是否完成對中央 五院跟信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點\n653862\t671768\t我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞\n672228\t693917\t你就不敢大膽說 人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法 把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦 專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候 大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為 國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要補破網嘛\n698346\t725771\t是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛 所以你也緊錄他 你也緊錄他這樣所以啦 人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務赦命的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分\n729036\t730758\t但是妳對日本人也是沒辦法 妳這樣說也是沒辦法\n752716\t779747\t跟委員報告那個院外的部分院外的部分那如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅\n781485\t809981\t任何地方都不應該有特權啦咱不是這樣說?頂頭嘛 局長應該是嘛 官員也應該是嘛所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感 因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦這國家大家的啦 這國家大家的啦現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦這官員 大家可以做多久\n811597\t820289\t國會議員也不能說做多久 言所當然嘛不是這樣說 制度有缺漏 你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請兩位不來我們請仁總仁總也不來仁總不來 仁總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來 調查局局長也請上台\n兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦,\n這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員召委,你也是程序委員召委剛好我們翁曉琳委員也是召委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點悲感,讓人覺得有點感慨\n那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用\n不任用免職辦理退休或支錢或撤銷這一個任用那特殊查核的部分啊就其實啊是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是呢我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們喔\n社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑,就是說你在追查,你在這套查核的一個制度,你們過去有什麼弊端嗎?從2000多年到現在,那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口,那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下?\n跟委員報告因為就是辦法規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼\n其實你們到 我都覺得任總到也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨\n我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行\n那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就可以開出來了?你以為兩禮拜急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?\n跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容\n因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員 聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看\n人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係\n那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心啦在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎啦不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係裡面當事人的地位根本就不對等嘛\n對不對 然後你的衣物也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在 我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說 連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣 逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件\n國民有期待 可是呢 偵辦起來又虎虎生風然後到最後呢 常常都是一陣風 後面就沒有人去追蹤了\n這個要特別特別的謹慎今天我看這兩個委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦 擔憂啦可是有犯罪 你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦 可是呢 可是呢 確實啊司法這一線 那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦 也要掌握清楚啦\n所以我特別又要來就教的就是說像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會\n到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議啦就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的不來啦\n像我上禮拜禮拜 禮拜年必須頂 無憲政慣例的人都不來 無憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的爭議的時候 在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防 可是呢 我擔心到一點是什麼\n立法院 國安破口的部分 你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面 我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話 立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在 我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項\n一千三百二十八項的職務裡面那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院 立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能 你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律 那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已 立法院要怎麼管自己\n啊 立法院有時候又沒人要死啊 委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說 我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議\n我們就是建議 我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重 國安不是講尊重 我說你真正的想法你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據\n這個喔 大家在說跌啦 國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好 他就開始跟民進黨說 你也跌 你也共 你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦 但問題就是說 國會裡面 你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的 他不會分黨派 他不會分黨派\n民進黨執政 最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面 國會助理 或者是政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力 中國對我們的影響是最大的可是重點就是說 任何人執政的時候\n他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這\n當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的 前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳薇仁那個啊那也一樣啦在以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說\n這些所謂的諜 大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來 國安局來 國安局來\n反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的 我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你再看你目前是否完成對中央 五院跟信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點\n我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞\n你就不敢大膽說 人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法 把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦 專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候 大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為 國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要補破網嘛\n是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛 所以你也緊錄他 你也緊錄他這樣所以啦 人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務赦命的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分\n但是妳對日本人也是沒辦法 妳這樣說也是沒辦法\n跟委員報告那個院外的部分院外的部分那如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅\n任何地方都不應該有特權啦咱不是這樣說?頂頭嘛 局長應該是嘛 官員也應該是嘛所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感 因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦這國家大家的啦 這國家大家的啦現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦這官員 大家可以做多久\n國會議員也不能說做多久 言所當然嘛不是這樣說 制度有缺漏 你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.013 --> 00:21.342\n謝謝主席有請兩位不來我們請仁總仁總也不來仁總不來仁總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來調查局局長也請上台\n\n00:42.154 --> 00:56.757\n兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦,\n\n00:58.258 --> 01:22.390\n這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員召委,你也是程序委員召委剛好我們翁曉琳委員也是召委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點悲感,讓人覺得有點感慨\n\n01:23.450 --> 01:48.570\n那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用\n\n01:49.190 --> 02:07.305\n不任用免職辦理退休或支錢或撤銷這一個任用那特殊查核的部分啊就其實啊是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是呢我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們喔\n\n02:12.415 --> 02:28.538\n社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑,就是說你在追查,你在這套查核的一個制度,你們過去有什麼弊端嗎?從2000多年到現在,那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口,那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下?\n\n02:29.710 --> 02:55.299\n跟委員報告因為就是辦法規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼\n\n02:55.979 --> 03:02.966\n其實你們到我都覺得任總到也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨\n\n03:04.295 --> 03:27.201\n我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行\n\n03:29.122 --> 03:46.983\n那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就可以開出來了?你以為兩禮拜急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?\n\n03:47.657 --> 04:03.051\n跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容\n\n04:03.852 --> 04:29.946\n因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看\n\n04:32.813 --> 04:41.858\n人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係\n\n04:51.960 --> 05:16.017\n那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心啦在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎啦不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係裡面當事人的地位根本就不對等嘛\n\n05:16.653 --> 05:39.745\n對不對然後你的衣物也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件\n\n05:45.227 --> 05:53.731\n國民有期待可是呢偵辦起來又虎虎生風然後到最後呢常常都是一陣風後面就沒有人去追蹤了\n\n05:57.535 --> 06:19.364\n這個要特別特別的謹慎今天我看這兩個委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦擔憂啦可是有犯罪你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦可是呢可是呢確實啊司法這一線那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦也要掌握清楚啦\n\n06:19.764 --> 06:31.352\n所以我特別又要來就教的就是說像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會\n\n06:36.282 --> 06:55.894\n到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議啦就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的不來啦\n\n06:57.176 --> 07:14.088\n像我上禮拜禮拜禮拜年必須頂無憲政慣例的人都不來無憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的爭議的時候在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防可是呢我擔心到一點是什麼\n\n07:15.632 --> 07:41.693\n立法院國安破口的部分你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項\n\n07:43.956 --> 08:10.233\n一千三百二十八項的職務裡面那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已立法院要怎麼管自己\n\n08:12.073 --> 08:30.598\n啊立法院有時候又沒人要死啊委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議\n\n08:31.358 --> 08:50.664\n我們就是建議我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重國安不是講尊重我說你真正的想法你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據\n\n08:52.084 --> 09:00.574\n這個喔大家在說跌啦國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好他就開始跟民進黨說你也跌你也共你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦但問題就是說國會裡面你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的他不會分黨派他不會分黨派\n\n09:13.163 --> 09:15.804\n民進黨執政最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面國會助理或者是政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力中國對我們的影響是最大的可是重點就是說任何人執政的時候\n\n09:33.169 --> 09:47.102\n他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這\n\n09:57.000 --> 10:11.812\n當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳薇仁那個啊那也一樣啦在以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說\n\n10:12.953 --> 10:32.247\n這些所謂的諜大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來國安局來國安局來\n\n10:34.142 --> 10:49.694\n反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你再看你目前是否完成對中央五院跟信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點\n\n10:53.862 --> 11:11.768\n我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞\n\n11:12.228 --> 11:33.917\n你就不敢大膽說人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要補破網嘛\n\n11:38.346 --> 12:05.771\n是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛所以你也緊錄他你也緊錄他這樣所以啦人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務赦命的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分\n\n12:09.036 --> 12:10.758\n但是妳對日本人也是沒辦法妳這樣說也是沒辦法\n\n12:32.716 --> 12:59.747\n跟委員報告那個院外的部分院外的部分那如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅\n\n13:01.485 --> 13:29.981\n任何地方都不應該有特權啦咱不是這樣說?頂頭嘛局長應該是嘛官員也應該是嘛所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦這國家大家的啦這國家大家的啦現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦這官員大家可以做多久\n\n13:31.597 --> 13:40.289\n國會議員也不能說做多久言所當然嘛不是這樣說制度有缺漏你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.013,"end":21.342,"text":"謝謝主席 有請兩位不來我們請仁總仁總也不來仁總不來 仁總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來 調查局局長也請上台"},{"start":42.154,"end":56.757,"text":"兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦,"},{"start":58.258,"end":82.39,"text":"這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員召委,你也是程序委員召委剛好我們翁曉琳委員也是召委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點悲感,讓人覺得有點感慨"},{"start":83.45,"end":108.57,"text":"那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用"},{"start":109.19,"end":127.305,"text":"不任用免職辦理退休或支錢或撤銷這一個任用那特殊查核的部分啊就其實啊是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是呢我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們喔"},{"start":132.415,"end":148.538,"text":"社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑,就是說你在追查,你在這套查核的一個制度,你們過去有什麼弊端嗎?從2000多年到現在,那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口,那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下?"},{"start":149.71,"end":175.299,"text":"跟委員報告因為就是辦法規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼"},{"start":175.979,"end":182.966,"text":"其實你們到 我都覺得任總到也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨"},{"start":184.295,"end":207.201,"text":"我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行"},{"start":209.122,"end":226.983,"text":"那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就可以開出來了?你以為兩禮拜急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?"},{"start":227.657,"end":243.051,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容"},{"start":243.852,"end":269.946,"text":"因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員 聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看"},{"start":272.813,"end":281.858,"text":"人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係"},{"start":291.96,"end":316.017,"text":"那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心啦在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎啦不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係裡面當事人的地位根本就不對等嘛"},{"start":316.653,"end":339.745,"text":"對不對 然後你的衣物也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在 我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說 連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣 逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件"},{"start":345.227,"end":353.731,"text":"國民有期待 可是呢 偵辦起來又虎虎生風然後到最後呢 常常都是一陣風 後面就沒有人去追蹤了"},{"start":357.535,"end":379.364,"text":"這個要特別特別的謹慎今天我看這兩個委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦 擔憂啦可是有犯罪 你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦 可是呢 可是呢 確實啊司法這一線 那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦 也要掌握清楚啦"},{"start":379.764,"end":391.352,"text":"所以我特別又要來就教的就是說像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會"},{"start":396.282,"end":415.894,"text":"到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議啦就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的不來啦"},{"start":417.176,"end":434.088,"text":"像我上禮拜禮拜 禮拜年必須頂 無憲政慣例的人都不來 無憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的爭議的時候 在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防 可是呢 我擔心到一點是什麼"},{"start":435.632,"end":461.693,"text":"立法院 國安破口的部分 你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面 我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話 立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在 我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項"},{"start":463.956,"end":490.233,"text":"一千三百二十八項的職務裡面那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院 立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能 你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律 那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已 立法院要怎麼管自己"},{"start":492.073,"end":510.598,"text":"啊 立法院有時候又沒人要死啊 委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說 我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":511.358,"end":530.664,"text":"我們就是建議 我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重 國安不是講尊重 我說你真正的想法你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據"},{"start":532.084,"end":540.574,"text":"這個喔 大家在說跌啦 國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好 他就開始跟民進黨說 你也跌 你也共 你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦 但問題就是說 國會裡面 你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的 他不會分黨派 他不會分黨派"},{"start":553.163,"end":555.804,"text":"民進黨執政 最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面 國會助理 或者是政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力 中國對我們的影響是最大的可是重點就是說 任何人執政的時候"},{"start":573.169,"end":587.102,"text":"他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這"},{"start":597,"end":611.812,"text":"當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的 前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳薇仁那個啊那也一樣啦在以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說"},{"start":612.953,"end":632.247,"text":"這些所謂的諜 大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來 國安局來 國安局來"},{"start":634.142,"end":649.694,"text":"反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的 我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你再看你目前是否完成對中央 五院跟信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點"},{"start":653.862,"end":671.768,"text":"我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞"},{"start":672.228,"end":693.917,"text":"你就不敢大膽說 人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法 把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦 專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候 大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為 國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要補破網嘛"},{"start":698.346,"end":725.771,"text":"是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛 所以你也緊錄他 你也緊錄他這樣所以啦 人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務赦命的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分"},{"start":729.036,"end":730.758,"text":"但是妳對日本人也是沒辦法 妳這樣說也是沒辦法"},{"start":752.716,"end":779.747,"text":"跟委員報告那個院外的部分院外的部分那如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅"},{"start":781.485,"end":809.981,"text":"任何地方都不應該有特權啦咱不是這樣說?頂頭嘛 局長應該是嘛 官員也應該是嘛所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感 因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦這國家大家的啦 這國家大家的啦現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦這官員 大家可以做多久"},{"start":811.597,"end":820.289,"text":"國會議員也不能說做多久 言所當然嘛不是這樣說 制度有缺漏 你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時50分）謝謝主席。有兩個沒來，我們請人總，人總也沒來，人總沒來？"],["主席：有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人總是誰來？不好意思！請問你是？"],["李處長花書：委員好！我是培訓考用處處長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：處長，處長有來。調查局局長也請上臺一下。"],["主席：請局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩位好！我想今天召委這樣的安排很有意思，針對整個國安的破口要如何去防堵。剛剛沈委員提的，我也是有感而發！上個會期及這個會期在程序委員會，吳宗憲召委也是程序委員會的召委，剛好翁曉玲委員也是召委，確實在程序委員會裡面，你們一次次把國安法案給擋掉了，今天又來召集這樣的議題，就讓人覺得有一點感慨！","其實國安不分黨派，國家是大家的。針對公務人員忠誠查核這個部分，我想公務人員的忠誠查核倒也不是什麼新的命題，早在2002年修正的公務人員任用法當中，一般查核裡面的國籍、犯罪等事態就可以產生五種法律效果，包括任用、不任用、免職、辦理退休或資遣、撤銷任用，特殊查核的部分其實是針對有沒有受過外國政府勢力的利誘與密切接觸下犯罪，可以產生任用、不任用這樣的結果，可是我請人總先說明一下，我們社會大眾可能會產生疑惑的就是這套查核制度過去有什麼弊端嗎？不然，怎麼會從2002年到現在變成造成國安的一個破口，這個部分是不是人總先說明一下？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，因為辦法是規定各機關要去檢視、提列他的特查職務，提列特查職務之後，這個職務要進用的時候，他們會函請調查局辦理特查，所以剛剛委員提示的弊案，因為是前端的部分，人事機關是函送調查局辦理特查，所以這個部分恐怕我們沒有掌握到什麼……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我倒覺得人總也不是只是人事這樣的後臺而已，你們其實是國安的一個前哨，我倒這樣認為。比如4月17日行政院院會裡面就講，面對境外敵對勢力，要按照公務人員任用法第四條，需要去做特殊查核；人事長會後也講，會去思考是不是每一年往規律查核的方向去進行。那麼久也沒有弄出什麼制度，要怎麼補破網？行政院院會開完以後，兩個禮拜你們的方案就可以拿出來了？你認為兩個禮拜這樣急就章出來的，真的可以達到防堵國安破口的效果嗎？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，目前總處已經遵照院長的指示事項，研修特查辦法的草案，包括剛剛委員提到的查核頻次，不是進來之後查了就沒事；此外，查核的內容，因為最近有一些相關國安法規的修正，所以查核的項目是不是要檢視；另外，院長也有提示到，目前不是依照任用法進用的其他類人員，包括聘僱人員等等，這個部分要怎麼樣去強化那個特查機制。總處都依照院長的指示在積極的研議處理中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我就要就教局長，局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我剛剛看人總在這個地方的講法，其實國安的部分，只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安，聽起來就非常肅殺，會不會有這樣的感覺？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：尤其針對公務人員的部分，我們過去強調公務人員幾乎是特別權力關係，當然公務人員忠誠就變成是一種義務，我都有一點擔心，在這種肅殺的情況之下，你們這些第一線的人在偵辦過程中，會不會嚴守這樣的比例原則，這個也不可不慎。以前在特別權力關係裡面當事人地位根本就不對等，對不對？然後所負的義務也都不確定，而且還有一些特別的規則在，我就很怕又有特別的規則跑出來，會變成在以前連爭訟都不得爭訟的，可是經過大法官會議對憲法做了那麼多的解釋以後，臺灣其實現在也都不一樣了，那你要怎麼樣逐漸去落實在如果有修訂公務人員保障法的時候，尤其是針對這些國安事件，你們這個「手路」實在是……國民有期待，偵辦起來虎虎生風，可是到最後常常都是一陣風過了，到後面就沒有人去追蹤了，所以這個要特別、特別的謹慎。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：今天在野黨委員也提出他們的擔憂，可是有犯罪，自己是始作俑者，自己犯罪完以後又在那邊哇哇叫，這也沒有道理啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是確實司法的這一條界限真的要掌握清楚，也要掌握清楚啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我特別要來就教的就是，像在我們這一次的修法裡面，接下來可能會動用到修法的部分，今天召委排這個議程，像總統府跟國安會到底要不要到立法院來備詢，這個都是有高度政治的爭議，其實在大法官會議裡面當然有講到，但是也未必清楚，那沒有講清楚的時候，大家都會想說在憲政上有沒有慣例，憲政上有慣例的卻不來啦！像我上禮拜排的會議有邀請立法院的秘書長，那是有憲政慣例的，可是他不來，像這種沒有憲政慣例的，你就一直排。那當然在有高度政治性爭議的時候，在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防，可是我擔心的一點是什麼？就是立法院國安破口的部分，你去看立法院，我們都很擔心立法院裡面的各個地方會不會形成一個破口，以現在來看的話，立法院的助理這個部分根本就不屬於你們特殊查核的範圍，我看你們現在一共有幾項……"],["陳局長白立：不在那個正面表列的職務裡面。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們正面表列總共有幾項？"],["陳局長白立：總共有1,328個職務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：在這1,328項職務裡面並沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分，尤其立法院這些助理都要接收到一些國家機密，其實他們是有機會的，你們有沒有什麼樣的建議？你要叫立法院來率先自律，不可能啦！立法院就專門在管別人而已，立法院怎麼會自己管自己，立法委員有時候又忙得要死，有的還比較懶惰，你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案，然後在1,328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部給納進去，我會覺得這有點違背人性，你們有沒有什麼建議？"],["陳局長白立：我們還是完全都尊重立法院，我們還是建議立法院是不是能夠制定……"],["莊委員瑞雄：國安不能講尊重，國安不是在講尊重，你真正的想法要拿出來講。"],["陳局長白立：我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查辦法，讓我們能夠有一個可以依循的特查依據。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大家在說「諜」，國民黨讓人家覺得它跟中國比較好，它就開始跟民進黨說你也「諜」、你也「共」、什麼綠共，這個當然是胡說八道。但問題就是在國會裡面，你去看這一些產生國安破口的不會分黨派，他們不會分黨派，民進黨執政的時候，最好是在民進黨旁邊、在國會裡面的國會助理或者政府部門裡面，放進他們想要的這一些情報人員，我們稱呼這個叫「諜」了，對岸的境外勢力、中國對我們的影響是最大的。重點就是任何人執政的時候都是會被安插的對象，所以如果要把他定性成這個叫「諜」的話也可以，叫「共」的話也可以，老共就是對我們太糟糕、太有敵意。但問題是，我為什麼會講出在國會裡面這個不會分黨派？我記憶最深刻的就是當年協助駭客進入健保系統，要去竊取蔡英文前總統的病歷而被判刑10年的陳惟仁，那個也一樣，是在以前國民黨立委的辦公室裡面。所以這個就可以證明，這些大家很討厭的、要企圖來影響臺灣國安的「諜」，他不會去分黨派，所以局長剛剛提到說，這樣的一個漏洞，你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法，是這樣子嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：國安局有來嗎？國安局，這對你們也很重要，這其實都與國安有關，我也不能讓你一直只坐在那邊喝茶。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們目前是不是已經完成對中央五院及涉密機關中「未納入安全查核制度人員」的風險盤點？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面的層級需要去做盤點，對於有接觸到機敏資料的這些人員，我們建議在法制面建置一個完整的查核機制，這樣才能補上國安的漏洞。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你就不敢大膽的說，剛才調查局長就很敢說，說當然建議立法院要去修法，把它補起來。專業的在這裡說都沒關係，我相信各黨有時候只是政治攻防而已，你真正講到核心問題的時候，大家對你們還是要有尊重。調查局也這樣認為，國安局也認為國會這一塊還是要補破網嘛！是不是這樣說？"],["黃副局長明昭：應該是要把它補起來啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！你們也認為是這樣，所以我要再來追問人總的是，現行「高風險職務欠缺查核制度」是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象？像立法院助理因為身分沒有納入，有沒有可能改依職務涉密的程度來劃分標準，而非用身分來做區分？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，職務涉密程度的部分目前有初步的想法，但是還要跟各機關會商，可能會再請各機關提列的時候用教示性的文字，就是請他們要按照院長的指示、按照揭密的程度去提列特查的職務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是你這樣說對立法院你也是沒辦法啊！是不是這樣說？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，院外的部分，如果是公務人員任用法規進用的，那當然適用特查辦法沒有問題，至於其他的人員，就像剛剛其他部會所講的，就是尊重立法院用人機關……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們當然會講尊重啦！但是我必須要再次的提醒，國會不應該是國安的一個死角，更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所，面對這種無所不在的滲透跟威脅，任何地方都不應該有特權，是不是這樣說？點頭嘛！局長應該是這樣認為嘛！國安局也應該是嘛！所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法提出你們的看法，因為比較敏感、重要，要大膽的建言。這個國家是大家的，現在的臺灣，民主臺灣跟過去那種威權的臺灣不一樣，做官員可以做多久？國會議員也不能說可以做多久，言所當言嘛！制度有缺漏，本來就是要趕快補強，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請翁曉玲委員發言，翁曉玲委員發言完畢之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}