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\"end\": 831.465, \"text\": \"立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 812.492, \"end\": 812.752, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 812.752, \"end\": 812.972, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 812.972, \"end\": 813.193, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 813.193, \"end\": 813.313, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 813.313, \"end\": 813.433, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 813.433, \"end\": 813.613, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 813.613, \"end\": 813.853, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 813.853, \"end\": 814.794, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 814.794, \"end\": 815.174, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 815.174, \"end\": 815.454, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 815.454, \"end\": 816.134, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, 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0.968}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 915.088, \"end\": 915.469, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 915.469, \"end\": 916.049, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 916.049, \"end\": 916.269, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 916.269, \"end\": 916.509, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 916.509, \"end\": 916.669, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 916.669, \"end\": 917.069, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 917.069, \"end\": 917.33, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 917.33, \"end\": 917.43, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 917.43, \"end\": 917.91, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 917.91, \"end\": 918.01, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 918.01, \"end\": 918.17, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 918.17, \"end\": 918.25, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 918.25, \"end\": 918.71, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 918.71, \"end\": 918.89, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 918.89, \"end\": 919.371, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 919.371, \"end\": 919.391, \"score\": 0.432}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,090 --> 00:00:15,515\n謝謝主席有請政部長陳局長麻煩政部長陳局長國安局黃副局長副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:19,148 --> 00:00:47,729\n每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責nooneisoutsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多\n\n3\n00:00:48,601 --> 00:01:05,378\n已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動\n\n4\n00:01:11,124 --> 00:01:36,191\n立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁\n\n5\n00:01:37,532 --> 00:01:56,471\n但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊\n\n6\n00:01:57,597 --> 00:02:24,735\n最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁\n\n7\n00:02:25,854 --> 00:02:42,441\n我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案\n\n8\n00:02:43,666 --> 00:03:00,223\n所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本\n\n9\n00:03:01,215 --> 00:03:28,095\n甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少\n\n10\n00:03:32,208 --> 00:03:49,981\n大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法\n\n11\n00:03:50,902 --> 00:04:12,074\n可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁\n\n12\n00:04:13,547 --> 00:04:38,820\n而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等\n\n13\n00:04:39,540 --> 00:05:00,074\n而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人\n\n14\n00:05:00,834 --> 00:05:27,108\n但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關\n\n15\n00:05:28,149 --> 00:05:45,488\n是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人\n\n16\n00:05:47,335 --> 00:06:11,945\n對不對事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好謝謝下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎\n\n17\n00:06:14,144 --> 00:06:32,998\n你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會\n\n18\n00:06:35,783 --> 00:07:03,754\n這就是一個很簡單就講事實嘛各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送查辦開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠\n\n19\n00:07:05,094 --> 00:07:22,686\n他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁\n\n20\n00:07:24,858 --> 00:07:51,317\n公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是\n\n21\n00:07:52,591 --> 00:08:08,267\n但如果立法院定了那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個\n\n22\n00:08:10,769 --> 00:08:38,604\n然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含\n\n23\n00:08:39,805 --> 00:09:05,998\n當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起有領公務人員任用的\n\n24\n00:09:07,082 --> 00:09:30,418\n有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的\n\n25\n00:09:32,038 --> 00:09:49,225\n領公務員是的應該是的最多非常多所以你們的2336個就我的理解目前沒有納入耶要納入必須納入國安不能缺一角漏洞不能在國會\n\n26\n00:09:50,746 --> 00:10:05,257\n但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論\n\n27\n00:10:18,396 --> 00:10:37,998\n所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊\n\n28\n00:10:39,220 --> 00:10:48,087\n希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個\n\n29\n00:10:54,079 --> 00:11:17,639\n我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用\n\n30\n00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:30,842\n拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁\n\n31\n00:11:47,144 --> 00:12:00,383\n今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號\n\n32\n00:12:02,182 --> 00:12:18,607\n那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁\n\n33\n00:12:21,607 --> 00:12:39,683\n下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察\n\n34\n00:12:41,064 --> 00:13:02,122\n以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔\n\n35\n00:13:03,226 --> 00:13:29,795\n下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面\n\n36\n00:13:32,492 --> 00:13:51,465\n立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁\n\n37\n00:13:52,995 --> 00:14:14,500\n國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的\n\n38\n00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:40,025\n如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己\n\n39\n00:14:41,045 --> 00:15:02,116\n我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定\n\n40\n00:15:03,362 --> 00:15:19,391\n所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5090\t15515\t謝謝主席 有請政部長 陳局長麻煩政部長 陳局長 國安局黃副局長 副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答 謝謝\n19148\t47729\t每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多\n48601\t65378\t已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動\n71124\t96191\t立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁\n97532\t116471\t但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊\n117597\t144735\t最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁\n145854\t162441\t我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案\n163666\t180223\t所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本\n181215\t208095\t甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少\n212208\t229981\t大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法\n230902\t252074\t可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁\n253547\t278820\t而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等\n279540\t300074\t而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人\n300834\t327108\t但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關\n328149\t345488\t是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人\n347335\t371945\t對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎\n374144\t392998\t你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會\n395783\t423754\t這就是一個很簡單 就講事實嘛 各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛 我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨 一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨 而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送 查辦 開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠\n425094\t442686\t他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁\n444858\t471317\t公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是\n472591\t488267\t但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個\n490769\t518604\t然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含\n519805\t545998\t當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領公務人員任用的\n547082\t570418\t有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的\n572038\t589225\t領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會\n590746\t605257\t但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論\n618396\t637998\t所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊\n639220\t648087\t希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個\n654079\t677639\t我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用\n678900\t690842\t拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁\n707144\t720383\t今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號\n722182\t738607\t那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁\n741607\t759683\t下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察\n761064\t782122\t以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔\n783226\t809795\t下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面\n812492\t831465\t立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁\n832995\t854500\t國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的\n855780\t880025\t如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己\n881045\t902116\t我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定\n903362\t919391\t所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請政部長 陳局長麻煩政部長 陳局長 國安局黃副局長 副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答 謝謝\n每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多\n已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動\n立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁\n但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊\n最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁\n我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案\n所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本\n甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少\n大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法\n可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁\n而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等\n而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人\n但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關\n是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人\n對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎\n你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會\n這就是一個很簡單 就講事實嘛 各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛 我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨 一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨 而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送 查辦 開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠\n他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁\n公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是\n但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個\n然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含\n當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領公務人員任用的\n有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的\n領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會\n但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論\n所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊\n希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個\n我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用\n拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁\n今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號\n那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁\n下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察\n以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔\n下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面\n立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁\n國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的\n如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己\n我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定\n所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.090 --> 00:15.515\n謝謝主席有請政部長陳局長麻煩政部長陳局長國安局黃副局長副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答謝謝\n\n00:19.148 --> 00:47.729\n每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責nooneisoutsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多\n\n00:48.601 --> 01:05.378\n已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動\n\n01:11.124 --> 01:36.191\n立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁\n\n01:37.532 --> 01:56.471\n但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊\n\n01:57.597 --> 02:24.735\n最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁\n\n02:25.854 --> 02:42.441\n我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案\n\n02:43.666 --> 03:00.223\n所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本\n\n03:01.215 --> 03:28.095\n甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少\n\n03:32.208 --> 03:49.981\n大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法\n\n03:50.902 --> 04:12.074\n可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁\n\n04:13.547 --> 04:38.820\n而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等\n\n04:39.540 --> 05:00.074\n而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人\n\n05:00.834 --> 05:27.108\n但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關\n\n05:28.149 --> 05:45.488\n是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人\n\n05:47.335 --> 06:11.945\n對不對事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好謝謝下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎\n\n06:14.144 --> 06:32.998\n你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會\n\n06:35.783 --> 07:03.754\n這就是一個很簡單就講事實嘛各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送查辦開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠\n\n07:05.094 --> 07:22.686\n他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁\n\n07:24.858 --> 07:51.317\n公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是\n\n07:52.591 --> 08:08.267\n但如果立法院定了那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個\n\n08:10.769 --> 08:38.604\n然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含\n\n08:39.805 --> 09:05.998\n當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起有領公務人員任用的\n\n09:07.082 --> 09:30.418\n有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的\n\n09:32.038 --> 09:49.225\n領公務員是的應該是的最多非常多所以你們的2336個就我的理解目前沒有納入耶要納入必須納入國安不能缺一角漏洞不能在國會\n\n09:50.746 --> 10:05.257\n但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論\n\n10:18.396 --> 10:37.998\n所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊\n\n10:39.220 --> 10:48.087\n希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個\n\n10:54.079 --> 11:17.639\n我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用\n\n11:18.900 --> 11:30.842\n拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁\n\n11:47.144 --> 12:00.383\n今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號\n\n12:02.182 --> 12:18.607\n那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁\n\n12:21.607 --> 12:39.683\n下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察\n\n12:41.064 --> 13:02.122\n以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔\n\n13:03.226 --> 13:29.795\n下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面\n\n13:32.492 --> 13:51.465\n立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁\n\n13:52.995 --> 14:14.500\n國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的\n\n14:15.780 --> 14:40.025\n如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己\n\n14:41.045 --> 15:02.116\n我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定\n\n15:03.362 --> 15:19.391\n所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.09,"end":15.515,"text":"謝謝主席 有請政部長 陳局長麻煩政部長 陳局長 國安局黃副局長 副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答 謝謝"},{"start":19.148,"end":47.729,"text":"每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多"},{"start":48.601,"end":65.378,"text":"已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動"},{"start":71.124,"end":96.191,"text":"立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁"},{"start":97.532,"end":116.471,"text":"但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊"},{"start":117.597,"end":144.735,"text":"最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁"},{"start":145.854,"end":162.441,"text":"我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案"},{"start":163.666,"end":180.223,"text":"所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本"},{"start":181.215,"end":208.095,"text":"甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少"},{"start":212.208,"end":229.981,"text":"大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法"},{"start":230.902,"end":252.074,"text":"可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁"},{"start":253.547,"end":278.82,"text":"而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等"},{"start":279.54,"end":300.074,"text":"而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人"},{"start":300.834,"end":327.108,"text":"但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關"},{"start":328.149,"end":345.488,"text":"是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人"},{"start":347.335,"end":371.945,"text":"對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎"},{"start":374.144,"end":392.998,"text":"你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會"},{"start":395.783,"end":423.754,"text":"這就是一個很簡單 就講事實嘛 各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛 我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨 一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨 而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送 查辦 開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠"},{"start":425.094,"end":442.686,"text":"他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁"},{"start":444.858,"end":471.317,"text":"公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是"},{"start":472.591,"end":488.267,"text":"但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個"},{"start":490.769,"end":518.604,"text":"然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含"},{"start":519.805,"end":545.998,"text":"當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領公務人員任用的"},{"start":547.082,"end":570.418,"text":"有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的"},{"start":572.038,"end":589.225,"text":"領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會"},{"start":590.746,"end":605.257,"text":"但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論"},{"start":618.396,"end":637.998,"text":"所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊"},{"start":639.22,"end":648.087,"text":"希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個"},{"start":654.079,"end":677.639,"text":"我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用"},{"start":678.9,"end":690.842,"text":"拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁"},{"start":707.144,"end":720.383,"text":"今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號"},{"start":722.182,"end":738.607,"text":"那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁"},{"start":741.607,"end":759.683,"text":"下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察"},{"start":761.064,"end":782.122,"text":"以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔"},{"start":783.226,"end":809.795,"text":"下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面"},{"start":812.492,"end":831.465,"text":"立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁"},{"start":832.995,"end":854.5,"text":"國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的"},{"start":855.78,"end":880.025,"text":"如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己"},{"start":881.045,"end":902.116,"text":"我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定"},{"start":903.362,"end":919.391,"text":"所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":858,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時29分）謝謝主席。有請鄭部長、陳局長，國安局黃副局長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長、陳局長、黃副局長。"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下可能提到銓敘部，再請自己主動上來回答，謝謝。","每個會期都是國安會期，因應中國的滲透無所不在、無孔不入，所以我已經多次說，每個會期都是國安會期，而保密防諜、人人有責，No one is outsider！今天我針對這個主題，第二次就教於各位。當然大家都非常關心共諜，所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告、專題報告非常多，這兩週已經三次了，司法及法制委員的宗憲召委排了兩次，國防委員會也排了一次，但我要說打共諜，其實我們要的是什麼？不是一再地把官員叫來這裡問話、質詢，我們要的是行動，立法院的行動是什麼？就是著手健全國安法制，也就是要修國安法案，你們都同意嘛！否則每一次專案報告、專案報告，無限多的專案報告後來還是回到要修法，不是嗎？我希望我們下一次針對這個主題，可以具體、明確的就修法的部分來闡述。但是非常遺憾，修法的部分最低階、最簡單、最可行、最無害的，其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭的立委赴中登載，這真的是最可行、最簡便。可是民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次，更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安十法的修法。如果連最簡單、最低門檻的赴中登載，在野黨都還要擋的話，我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去？我不是危言聳聽，上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏陸，具體排審了國家安全法，而國安法的9個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案。大家口口聲聲都要國安、都要防止共諜滲透，可是在國安十法修法重中之重的國安法，只有民進黨的9位委員提案，未來要期待行政院的版本。甚至那天在內政委員會，我非常不解，我還聽到在野黨的委員說，未來要設國安的專業法庭是綠色恐怖、是在搞戒嚴，這完全是錯誤的理解，這是污名化吧！我問一下鄭部長，我看到數據，好像是從2016到2023年，法院對於國安相關判刑的平均刑度是多少？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我手上沒有資料。"],["吳委員思瑤：大概是6個月，所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候，為什麼認為國安專業的法庭有其必要？因為要讓檢警調有足夠、充分的專業跟武器，這就是為什麼要修國安法。可是在野黨的委員把它污名化、醜化為是在搞戒嚴，我們是在對抗中國，所以要修國安法。我希望下一次審查的時候會有在野黨委員的版本，我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨委員是關心國安的。","共諜無所不在，今天我看到國安局五個面向的訊息反饋跟彙整，對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候，法務部所列舉的有科技淘空、介選滲透、發展組織、利誘軍人，然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等。而對應於國安局，副局長，針對今天你們的五大面向，我想特別問一下，你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應，而且要設立政權接管中央委員會，非常駭人聽聞，甚至要組成狙擊隊，就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人。但我要對應於上週四，我站在這個地方也提出我的詢問，滲透黑幫是上週媒體最新的爆料，也就是買通了黑幫，平時滋擾臺灣社會；但是戰時他們也會利用黑幫，成為軍火的狙擊單位，所以滲透黑幫跟你們今天提的發展武裝內應是不是有相關？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，這是我們經過國安團隊情蒐彙整出他們手法的其中要項之一，這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性。"],["吳委員思瑤：我是要指正你們，因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應，好像只有講到軍人，對不對？事實上，黑幫是有的，而且也是一個重要的滲透管道，這樣我們的理解就更全面，也更正確了，謝謝。","共諜在國會其實不分黨派都有，我要再一次來闢謠，在野黨的委員一直在說，全部都是綠營才有共諜，是這樣嗎？你們哪一位可以很簡要地回答一下？這段時間共諜事件在國會有多少個案子？是不是各黨都有？好幾個案子都已經很清楚被判有刑責，部長可以簡要回應嗎？共諜在國會，這很簡單就講事實，各黨都有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個委員的資料有寫……"],["吳委員思瑤：非常清楚！我整理出來的5個案子，有3個案子是國民黨，1個案子是民眾黨，1個案子是民進黨，而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送查辦、開除。我們是最嚴格的在自我提防跟要求，反觀在野黨只會造謠，他們有這樣具體的行動嗎？更何況在野黨委員的助理們被中共買通、滲透國會，都是具體被判刑的，這是事實俱在。","到底國會有沒有內控的機制？公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務，目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟具結的機制，具結應該是銓敘部在做的。我也利用之前我聽到的片段，因為我還有另外的會議，好像是調查局陳局長有說到，您建議、鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果立法院定了，那是誰來執行？"],["陳局長白立：定了以後就由調查局來執行。"],["吳委員思瑤：還是嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們有只有兩個人力！"],["陳局長白立：目前是只有兩個專責人力。"],["吳委員思瑤：我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告，目前已經進行特查的職位是1,328個，然後你們研議要擴大，因為現在我們要把網做大、把網做得更密，要增加1,008位，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是，我們建議。"],["吳委員思瑤：只要涉密，不是職等來分，是涉密的機會。"],["陳局長白立：接密條件。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且要強化、增加查核的頻率，我都支持。所以增加下來要查核的對象有2,336個，我就問您，即便是擴大特查，2,336個有沒有包含……當然不會包含立法院的立委，我們不是公務人員……"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：也不會包含國會助理，因為他們不是公務人員任用法適用的對象。"],["陳局長白立：沒有，是。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面？"],["陳局長白立：如果是依照公務人員任用法……"],["吳委員思瑤：國會的秘書長、法制局長。"],["陳局長白立：秘書長沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，如果是議事處長或是我們所有的……對不起，就是有領公務人員任用的，有沒有在我們的特查辦法？不管是before或after，有沒有納在裡面？"],["陳局長白立：目前這1,328個都沒有含立法院。"],["吳委員思瑤：他們也是公務員，所以要納入嘛！"],["陳局長白立：對，所以立法院如果提出來是可以。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們增加的1,008位，未來查核要增加到2,336個，裡面是不是應當要包含立法院領公務員……"],["陳局長白立：這樣子會最完善。"],["吳委員思瑤：是的，應該……"],["陳局長白立：因為國會接觸機密的……"],["吳委員思瑤：是的，最多、非常多。"],["陳局長白立：對，比一般公務人員多很多。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們的2,336個，就我的理解，目前沒有納入。"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：要納入、必須納入，國安不能缺一角，漏洞不能在國會，但是如果要擴大，反而你們說如果要納入國會助理，這是另外一個事情，國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水，不是公務人員任用法規範的對象，所以你們有一個「6,300」的數字是有問題的，因為國會助理不應當是你們現行法規裡可以特查的對象。"],["陳局長白立：沒有，現在沒有……"],["吳委員思瑤：除非我們自己設一個特查辦法，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：除非，但是這個有很多的討論，所以尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法，但未來執行還要視調查局人力、物力足不足夠，這需要思考。第二，現在的法制裡頭，特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工，就應當依循、應當要納入，至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊……"],["陳局長白立：這個需要增加。"],["吳委員思瑤：希望未來審查年度預算的時候，預算不會再被為難。"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：否則要求你們做更多、做更好，預算員額不給你們，經費不給你們，怎麼防共諜、怎麼打擊國安？","下一個我很快地說：民進黨團會先行，我們民進黨團已經針對赴中登載的部分有高度的共識，我們會主動用我們黨團的內規，因為在立法院推不動，兩岸人民關係條例要立法、要修法，推不動，被擋了363次，民進黨團會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理，我們會用具結的方式，我們希望要求主動揭露赴中的資訊，以達到事前報備、事後報告，民進黨團先行，我們要凸顯這個國會只會擋國安法案，連赴中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做。","好，我最後花一點點時間，今天的議程裡頭，我特別要跟主席做一下報告。上週韓國瑜院長用一個函文在院會宣告，援引憲法第六十七條跟大法官釋字第461號，特別為我們的立法院秘書長請了一個永久的免死金牌，我認為立法院如果不落實自我課責，強化立法院自我治理的話，我們沒有資格去要求別人。今天的會議，就國安會秘書長也好、就總統府的秘書長也好，我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告，同樣用憲法第六十七條跟大法官釋字第461號，只要是司法、監察以及考試院的秘書長都不宜到立法院，這是憲政慣例，馬英九這樣說過，王金平前院長這樣說過，我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個釋字來講，為什麼我們的召委一再要求別人？這已經違反大法官解釋喔！","金溥聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候，他也說除了預算案跟法律案，國安會到立法院備詢是破壞憲政體制，這也是回歸釋字第461號的解釋。換言之，釋字第461號告訴我們，除了法律案跟預算案，其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長、總統府秘書長來到立法院。但是立法院的部分，因為我們要國會自律跟自我課責，我們不在大法官釋字第461號所說的三院當中，所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢。我們看簡報最後一頁的表格，國安會到國會備詢的紀錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主，以王金平院長從第5屆到第7屆邀請的次數這麼多次，缺席的次數也很多，為什麼？因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張，除了預算案跟法律案，秘書長是不需要來備詢的。如果回到憲法，過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做，但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套，只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來，只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再地曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神，然後要求別人、放過自己。我認為國會的自律跟國會的課責，我們在探討非常多立法院的相關議案，包括國會遷建的事務也好，我們立法院要防共諜，剛剛講到立法院要自己訂查核辦法、立法院的特查辦法，如果秘書長不來備詢，請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼訂？所以不要嚴以律己、寬以待人，對於大家奉公守法，我們繼續努力，防共諜滲透、精進完備所有的法制作業，後續民進黨團所有的國安法案，大家一起繼續努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}