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892.661, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 892.661, \"end\": 892.781, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 892.781, \"end\": 893.142, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 893.142, \"end\": 893.442, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 893.442, \"end\": 893.542, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 893.542, \"end\": 894.623, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 894.623, \"end\": 895.044, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 895.044, \"end\": 895.204, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 895.204, \"end\": 895.224, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:11,611\n好謝謝主席那我先請部長保護部長謝謝麻煩部長\n\n2\n00:00:17,174 --> 00:00:35,466\n好部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論\n\n3\n00:00:36,787 --> 00:00:47,375\n但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許智傑委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨的這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆\n\n4\n00:01:02,386 --> 00:01:15,342\n的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對對對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對\n\n5\n00:01:23,425 --> 00:01:46,890\n反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了那我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的涉案我想這個檢察機關都在申辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊那同學也承認說啊對對對老師我有作弊這樣同學自己就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點啊Maybe有各種可能\n\n6\n00:01:47,210 --> 00:02:04,312\n所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起在進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長\n\n7\n00:02:05,333 --> 00:02:32,843\n他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是\n\n8\n00:02:33,763 --> 00:02:48,574\n所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想\n\n9\n00:02:50,396 --> 00:03:12,936\n這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了\n\n10\n00:03:15,658 --> 00:03:29,866\n變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法\n\n11\n00:03:31,347 --> 00:03:46,310\n就是勿软勿重嘛反正涉及犯罪就要办嘛那刚才就是违照文书那一部分怎么没有组成水灾过程这个虽然是学委会可以剔除但是这个是影响到学委会对这些管理的一个正确性的一个问题嘛\n\n12\n00:03:46,930 --> 00:04:01,937\n所以我想這個大概法律上那是個案的話個案正辦嘛這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇邱士源然後黃曲榮還有盛楚瑩其實都已經有被收押了嘛對不對我們就不就個案來討論\n\n13\n00:04:05,058 --> 00:04:08,662\n盛楚瑩沒有就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛我們該辦就辦對不對\n\n14\n00:04:21,797 --> 00:04:41,343\n所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我就說有裡面他僱用的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解那個這個個案的不同嘛所以我沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎\n\n15\n00:04:45,764 --> 00:05:01,299\n我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎\n\n16\n00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:08,493\n案件沒有分大小啦反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛那我想當檢察官的難道這個小我不辦這個當然我才辦或者說我能力我想要把這辦小我不辦大我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權啦這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛而且只分或輪分那案件分案的有一定的一個程序嘛\n\n17\n00:05:27,862 --> 00:05:47,910\n所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇邱氏黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說證實有介入的話那證實有介入的話那這個案件我想不問哪個黨派證實有介入的話那這個黨派\n\n18\n00:05:48,783 --> 00:06:10,241\n他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題喔其實我剛剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到這個案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失\n\n19\n00:06:11,762 --> 00:06:30,948\n過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了\n\n20\n00:06:32,605 --> 00:06:55,613\n偷了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說偷乾筆我就不辦啊我只偷偷價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿枉勿重公正執法\n\n21\n00:06:55,993 --> 00:07:23,627\n好謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意\n\n22\n00:07:26,731 --> 00:07:28,778\n謝謝部長請回接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝\n\n23\n00:07:40,709 --> 00:07:53,017\n其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟你來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的\n\n24\n00:08:00,121 --> 00:08:24,363\n法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面\n\n25\n00:08:25,143 --> 00:08:47,822\n就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要再無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是\n\n26\n00:08:51,065 --> 00:09:06,559\n謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者部位都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法\n\n27\n00:09:09,515 --> 00:09:30,697\n對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算\n\n28\n00:09:32,519 --> 00:09:48,689\n是這個我們會來辦理謝謝我們接下來看一下其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是184萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個對不對\n\n29\n00:09:53,111 --> 00:10:21,811\n遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說的修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局\n\n30\n00:10:24,011 --> 00:10:42,277\n是我們會透過國安團隊情報團隊收集國安有關的情報經過我們會診分析這個確實我們也會掌握好那我們來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的\n\n31\n00:10:43,752 --> 00:11:10,398\n中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考\n\n32\n00:11:11,258 --> 00:11:27,125\n第一个就是中共如此无恐不入的渗透行为而且我必须要说它非常广泛而且它试着想要让这些事情是有效的在国安没有看见的角落那我们国安局或是整体的行政机关如何建立广泛\n\n33\n00:11:27,805 --> 00:11:44,142\n足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個\n\n34\n00:11:44,682 --> 00:11:56,508\n第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議\n\n35\n00:12:01,610 --> 00:12:23,240\n也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引\n\n36\n00:12:26,257 --> 00:12:46,853\n這個任何一個滲透的方法或者是它的樣態待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態透過不同的一個場合包括發布的一個媒體讓告知民眾也是在全世界的一個交易這很重要的\n\n37\n00:12:47,133 --> 00:13:08,112\n好你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的\n\n38\n00:13:10,194 --> 00:13:29,687\n行為在裡面對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們\n\n39\n00:13:30,787 --> 00:13:56,545\n為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教\n\n40\n00:13:57,345 --> 00:14:13,073\n其实呢王美惠委员或者是其他民进党团的委员都有提出来例如说一定职等或是一定关节符合一定条件的公务员跟军官如果他们从事效忠中国的行为可以依法剥夺部分或全部的退休金\n\n41\n00:14:14,053 --> 00:14:31,561\n在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共的滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置\n\n42\n00:14:36,363 --> 00:14:55,224\n還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好以上謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6667\t11611\t好 謝謝主席那我先請部長 保護部長 謝謝麻煩部長\n17174\t35466\t好 部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛 人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論\n36787\t47375\t但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許智傑委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨的這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆\n62386\t75342\t的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對對對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對\n83425\t106890\t反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了那我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的涉案我想這個檢察機關都在申辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊那同學也承認說啊對對對老師我有作弊這樣同學自己就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點啊Maybe有各種可能\n107210\t124312\t所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起在進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長\n125333\t152843\t他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是\n153763\t168574\t所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想\n170396\t192936\t這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了\n195658\t209866\t變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法\n211347\t226310\t就是勿软勿重嘛反正涉及犯罪就要办嘛那刚才就是违照文书那一部分怎么没有组成水灾过程这个虽然是学委会可以剔除但是这个是影响到学委会对这些管理的一个正确性的一个问题嘛\n226930\t241937\t所以我想這個大概法律上那是個案的話個案正辦嘛這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇 邱士源然後黃曲榮還有盛楚瑩其實都已經有被收押了嘛對不對我們就不就個案來討論\n245058\t248662\t盛楚瑩沒有就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛我們該辦就辦對不對\n261797\t281343\t所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我就說有裡面他僱用的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解那個這個個案的不同嘛所以我沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎\n285764\t301299\t我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎\n302470\t308493\t案件沒有分大小啦 反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛那我想當檢察官的難道這個小我不辦 這個當然我才辦或者說我能力 我想要把這辦小 我不辦大我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權啦這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛 而且只分或輪分那案件分案的有一定的一個程序嘛\n327862\t347910\t所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇 邱氏 黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說證實有介入的話那證實有介入的話那這個案件我想不問哪個黨派證實有介入的話那這個黨派\n348783\t370241\t他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題喔其實我剛剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到這個案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失\n371762\t390948\t過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了\n392605\t415613\t偷了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說偷乾筆我就不辦啊我只偷偷價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿枉勿重公正執法\n415993\t443627\t好 謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意\n446731\t448778\t謝謝部長請回接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝\n460709\t473017\t其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟你來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的\n480121\t504363\t法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面\n505143\t527822\t就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要再無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是\n531065\t546559\t謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者部位都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法\n549515\t570697\t對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算\n572519\t588689\t是 這個我們會來辦理 謝謝我們接下來看一下 其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚 一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到 他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是184萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個 對不對\n593111\t621811\t遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說的修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局\n624011\t642277\t是 我們會透過國安團隊 情報團隊 收集國安有關的情報經過我們會診分析 這個確實我們也會掌握好 那我們來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告 這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的\n643752\t670398\t中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是 這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好 那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考\n671258\t687125\t第一个就是中共如此无恐不入的渗透行为而且我必须要说它非常广泛而且它试着想要让这些事情是有效的在国安没有看见的角落那我们国安局或是整体的行政机关如何建立广泛\n687805\t704142\t足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個\n704682\t716508\t第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議\n721610\t743240\t也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引\n746257\t766853\t這個任何一個滲透的方法 或者是它的樣態 待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面 民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態 透過不同的一個場合 包括發布的一個媒體 讓告知民眾 也是在全世界的一個交易 這很重要的\n767133\t788112\t好 你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的\n790194\t809687\t行為在裡面對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們\n810787\t836545\t為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教\n837345\t853073\t其实呢王美惠委员或者是其他民进党团的委员都有提出来例如说一定职等或是一定关节符合一定条件的公务员跟军官如果他们从事效忠中国的行为可以依法剥夺部分或全部的退休金\n854053\t871561\t在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共的滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置\n876363\t895224\t還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那我先請部長 保護部長 謝謝麻煩部長\n好 部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛 人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論\n但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許智傑委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨的這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆\n的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對對對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對\n反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了那我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的涉案我想這個檢察機關都在申辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊那同學也承認說啊對對對老師我有作弊這樣同學自己就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點啊Maybe有各種可能\n所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起在進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長\n他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是\n所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想\n這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了\n變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法\n就是勿软勿重嘛反正涉及犯罪就要办嘛那刚才就是违照文书那一部分怎么没有组成水灾过程这个虽然是学委会可以剔除但是这个是影响到学委会对这些管理的一个正确性的一个问题嘛\n所以我想這個大概法律上那是個案的話個案正辦嘛這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇 邱士源然後黃曲榮還有盛楚瑩其實都已經有被收押了嘛對不對我們就不就個案來討論\n盛楚瑩沒有就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛我們該辦就辦對不對\n所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我就說有裡面他僱用的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解那個這個個案的不同嘛所以我沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎\n我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎\n案件沒有分大小啦 反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛那我想當檢察官的難道這個小我不辦 這個當然我才辦或者說我能力 我想要把這辦小 我不辦大我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權啦這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛 而且只分或輪分那案件分案的有一定的一個程序嘛\n所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇 邱氏 黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說證實有介入的話那證實有介入的話那這個案件我想不問哪個黨派證實有介入的話那這個黨派\n他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題喔其實我剛剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到這個案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失\n過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了\n偷了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說偷乾筆我就不辦啊我只偷偷價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿枉勿重公正執法\n好 謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意\n謝謝部長請回接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝\n其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟你來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的\n法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面\n就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要再無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是\n謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者部位都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法\n對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算\n是 這個我們會來辦理 謝謝我們接下來看一下 其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚 一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到 他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是184萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個 對不對\n遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說的修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局\n是 我們會透過國安團隊 情報團隊 收集國安有關的情報經過我們會診分析 這個確實我們也會掌握好 那我們來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告 這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的\n中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是 這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好 那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考\n第一个就是中共如此无恐不入的渗透行为而且我必须要说它非常广泛而且它试着想要让这些事情是有效的在国安没有看见的角落那我们国安局或是整体的行政机关如何建立广泛\n足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個\n第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議\n也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引\n這個任何一個滲透的方法 或者是它的樣態 待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面 民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態 透過不同的一個場合 包括發布的一個媒體 讓告知民眾 也是在全世界的一個交易 這很重要的\n好 你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的\n行為在裡面對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們\n為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教\n其实呢王美惠委员或者是其他民进党团的委员都有提出来例如说一定职等或是一定关节符合一定条件的公务员跟军官如果他们从事效忠中国的行为可以依法剥夺部分或全部的退休金\n在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共的滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置\n還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.667 --> 00:11.611\n好謝謝主席那我先請部長保護部長謝謝麻煩部長\n\n00:17.174 --> 00:35.466\n好部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論\n\n00:36.787 --> 00:47.375\n但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許智傑委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨的這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆\n\n01:02.386 --> 01:15.342\n的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對對對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對\n\n01:23.425 --> 01:46.890\n反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了那我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的涉案我想這個檢察機關都在申辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊那同學也承認說啊對對對老師我有作弊這樣同學自己就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點啊Maybe有各種可能\n\n01:47.210 --> 02:04.312\n所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起在進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長\n\n02:05.333 --> 02:32.843\n他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是\n\n02:33.763 --> 02:48.574\n所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想\n\n02:50.396 --> 03:12.936\n這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了\n\n03:15.658 --> 03:29.866\n變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法\n\n03:31.347 --> 03:46.310\n就是勿软勿重嘛反正涉及犯罪就要办嘛那刚才就是违照文书那一部分怎么没有组成水灾过程这个虽然是学委会可以剔除但是这个是影响到学委会对这些管理的一个正确性的一个问题嘛\n\n03:46.930 --> 04:01.937\n所以我想這個大概法律上那是個案的話個案正辦嘛這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇邱士源然後黃曲榮還有盛楚瑩其實都已經有被收押了嘛對不對我們就不就個案來討論\n\n04:05.058 --> 04:08.662\n盛楚瑩沒有就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛我們該辦就辦對不對\n\n04:21.797 --> 04:41.343\n所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我就說有裡面他僱用的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解那個這個個案的不同嘛所以我沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎\n\n04:45.764 --> 05:01.299\n我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎\n\n05:02.470 --> 05:08.493\n案件沒有分大小啦反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛那我想當檢察官的難道這個小我不辦這個當然我才辦或者說我能力我想要把這辦小我不辦大我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權啦這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛而且只分或輪分那案件分案的有一定的一個程序嘛\n\n05:27.862 --> 05:47.910\n所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇邱氏黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說證實有介入的話那證實有介入的話那這個案件我想不問哪個黨派證實有介入的話那這個黨派\n\n05:48.783 --> 06:10.241\n他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題喔其實我剛剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到這個案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失\n\n06:11.762 --> 06:30.948\n過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了\n\n06:32.605 --> 06:55.613\n偷了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說偷乾筆我就不辦啊我只偷偷價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿枉勿重公正執法\n\n06:55.993 --> 07:23.627\n好謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意\n\n07:26.731 --> 07:28.778\n謝謝部長請回接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝\n\n07:40.709 --> 07:53.017\n其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟你來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的\n\n08:00.121 --> 08:24.363\n法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面\n\n08:25.143 --> 08:47.822\n就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要再無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是\n\n08:51.065 --> 09:06.559\n謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者部位都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法\n\n09:09.515 --> 09:30.697\n對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算\n\n09:32.519 --> 09:48.689\n是這個我們會來辦理謝謝我們接下來看一下其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是184萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個對不對\n\n09:53.111 --> 10:21.811\n遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說的修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局\n\n10:24.011 --> 10:42.277\n是我們會透過國安團隊情報團隊收集國安有關的情報經過我們會診分析這個確實我們也會掌握好那我們來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的\n\n10:43.752 --> 11:10.398\n中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考\n\n11:11.258 --> 11:27.125\n第一个就是中共如此无恐不入的渗透行为而且我必须要说它非常广泛而且它试着想要让这些事情是有效的在国安没有看见的角落那我们国安局或是整体的行政机关如何建立广泛\n\n11:27.805 --> 11:44.142\n足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個\n\n11:44.682 --> 11:56.508\n第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議\n\n12:01.610 --> 12:23.240\n也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引\n\n12:26.257 --> 12:46.853\n這個任何一個滲透的方法或者是它的樣態待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態透過不同的一個場合包括發布的一個媒體讓告知民眾也是在全世界的一個交易這很重要的\n\n12:47.133 --> 13:08.112\n好你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的\n\n13:10.194 --> 13:29.687\n行為在裡面對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們\n\n13:30.787 --> 13:56.545\n為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教\n\n13:57.345 --> 14:13.073\n其实呢王美惠委员或者是其他民进党团的委员都有提出来例如说一定职等或是一定关节符合一定条件的公务员跟军官如果他们从事效忠中国的行为可以依法剥夺部分或全部的退休金\n\n14:14.053 --> 14:31.561\n在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共的滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置\n\n14:36.363 --> 14:55.224\n還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好以上謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.667,"end":11.611,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我先請部長 保護部長 謝謝麻煩部長"},{"start":17.174,"end":35.466,"text":"好 部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛 人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論"},{"start":36.787,"end":47.375,"text":"但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許智傑委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨的這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆"},{"start":62.386,"end":75.342,"text":"的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對對對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對"},{"start":83.425,"end":106.89,"text":"反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了那我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的涉案我想這個檢察機關都在申辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊那同學也承認說啊對對對老師我有作弊這樣同學自己就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點啊Maybe有各種可能"},{"start":107.21,"end":124.312,"text":"所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起在進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長"},{"start":125.333,"end":152.843,"text":"他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是"},{"start":153.763,"end":168.574,"text":"所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想"},{"start":170.396,"end":192.936,"text":"這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了"},{"start":195.658,"end":209.866,"text":"變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法"},{"start":211.347,"end":226.31,"text":"就是勿软勿重嘛反正涉及犯罪就要办嘛那刚才就是违照文书那一部分怎么没有组成水灾过程这个虽然是学委会可以剔除但是这个是影响到学委会对这些管理的一个正确性的一个问题嘛"},{"start":226.93,"end":241.937,"text":"所以我想這個大概法律上那是個案的話個案正辦嘛這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇 邱士源然後黃曲榮還有盛楚瑩其實都已經有被收押了嘛對不對我們就不就個案來討論"},{"start":245.058,"end":248.662,"text":"盛楚瑩沒有就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛我們該辦就辦對不對"},{"start":261.797,"end":281.343,"text":"所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我就說有裡面他僱用的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解那個這個個案的不同嘛所以我沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎"},{"start":285.764,"end":301.299,"text":"我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎"},{"start":302.47,"end":308.493,"text":"案件沒有分大小啦 反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛那我想當檢察官的難道這個小我不辦 這個當然我才辦或者說我能力 我想要把這辦小 我不辦大我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權啦這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛 而且只分或輪分那案件分案的有一定的一個程序嘛"},{"start":327.862,"end":347.91,"text":"所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇 邱氏 黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說證實有介入的話那證實有介入的話那這個案件我想不問哪個黨派證實有介入的話那這個黨派"},{"start":348.783,"end":370.241,"text":"他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題喔其實我剛剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到這個案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失"},{"start":371.762,"end":390.948,"text":"過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了"},{"start":392.605,"end":415.613,"text":"偷了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說偷乾筆我就不辦啊我只偷偷價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿枉勿重公正執法"},{"start":415.993,"end":443.627,"text":"好 謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意"},{"start":446.731,"end":448.778,"text":"謝謝部長請回接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝"},{"start":460.709,"end":473.017,"text":"其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟你來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的"},{"start":480.121,"end":504.363,"text":"法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面"},{"start":505.143,"end":527.822,"text":"就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要再無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是"},{"start":531.065,"end":546.559,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者部位都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法"},{"start":549.515,"end":570.697,"text":"對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算"},{"start":572.519,"end":588.689,"text":"是 這個我們會來辦理 謝謝我們接下來看一下 其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚 一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到 他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是184萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個 對不對"},{"start":593.111,"end":621.811,"text":"遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說的修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局"},{"start":624.011,"end":642.277,"text":"是 我們會透過國安團隊 情報團隊 收集國安有關的情報經過我們會診分析 這個確實我們也會掌握好 那我們來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告 這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的"},{"start":643.752,"end":670.398,"text":"中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是 這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好 那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考"},{"start":671.258,"end":687.125,"text":"第一个就是中共如此无恐不入的渗透行为而且我必须要说它非常广泛而且它试着想要让这些事情是有效的在国安没有看见的角落那我们国安局或是整体的行政机关如何建立广泛"},{"start":687.805,"end":704.142,"text":"足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個"},{"start":704.682,"end":716.508,"text":"第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議"},{"start":721.61,"end":743.24,"text":"也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引"},{"start":746.257,"end":766.853,"text":"這個任何一個滲透的方法 或者是它的樣態 待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面 民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態 透過不同的一個場合 包括發布的一個媒體 讓告知民眾 也是在全世界的一個交易 這很重要的"},{"start":767.133,"end":788.112,"text":"好 你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的"},{"start":790.194,"end":809.687,"text":"行為在裡面對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們"},{"start":810.787,"end":836.545,"text":"為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教"},{"start":837.345,"end":853.073,"text":"其实呢王美惠委员或者是其他民进党团的委员都有提出来例如说一定职等或是一定关节符合一定条件的公务员跟军官如果他们从事效忠中国的行为可以依法剥夺部分或全部的退休金"},{"start":854.053,"end":871.561,"text":"在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共的滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置"},{"start":876.363,"end":895.224,"text":"還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時1分）謝謝主席，我先請法務部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我想跟你討論一下關於剛剛張啓楷質詢到人民有眼睛、人民有一把尺，我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解及認識想要跟部長討論。事實上，之前提到到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情，當然我知道你們還在偵查中，我們就不針對個案去討論，但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話，國民黨大老趙少康當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛；在高雄罷免許智傑委員的發起人還是領銜人，是一個從香港移民到臺灣來的中國人，他就說黨有義務把名單給黨員這樣抄，黨員也要服從黨，他說這個也很正常，這是第二個案例了；第三個案例是基隆的張淵翔自己也承認犯案。","所以依照我剛剛講的這3個案例，如果我們用小學生等級的理解，就是學生說：「老師，某某某作弊」，然後某某某也承認：「對、對、對，我有作弊」，身為老師，我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查，就法務部的見解，這應該是合理的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪就要辦。剛才委員提到的這些個別的涉案，我想檢察機關都在偵辦中了……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我們就不針對個案討論。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：我對法理的理解是，學生說：「老師，班上有同學作弊」，同學也承認：「對、對、對，老師，我有作弊」，同學就趕快自己承認了，覺得這樣罪會輕一點，maybe有各種可能，所以老師就進行調查，這是對的，這是老師應該做的事情，如果我們一起在進行考試，對班上其他同學應該也比較公平，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：是嘛，我的理解是這樣。所以如果用這個理解來看，我認為剛剛張啓楷委員非常多質詢內容有非常大的問題。第一個，我也想要請教部長，他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者游錫堃院長這些人，好像他認為也應該對他們發動大規模的搜索，甚至跑去他們家及辦公室。但是我想跟部長討論，我的見解是這樣，這些人基本上是被害人，除非這些被抓出來的共諜就直接指控是受游院長所指使去執行共諜任務，假設他們真的這樣說，假設我們有聽到這樣的論述，我們才去做後續的動作，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以對我來說，不管是吳釗燮秘書長或游院長，他們在共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人，如果你們現在掌握的證據是這樣，我們就沒有理由去對他們進行大規模搜索，這個不合理嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想檢察官會詳加調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我們沒辦法去說指定要對他搜索、對他查辦，我是管理政策及法案的，所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見，個案是由承辦檢察官在做處理，我怎麼去指導檢察官，譬如委員跟我講說要辦哪一個，我就要檢察官去辦哪一個，要去搜哪一個就去搜哪一個？這樣就變成我去介入了，變成是由政治力去介入到個案的偵辦，我認為要給檢察官一個純淨的辦案空間。我們會要求檢察官要嚴正、公正、客觀地執法，毋枉毋縱，凡涉及犯罪就要辦。剛才提到偽造文書的部分，怎麼會沒有足生損害於公眾或他人？這個雖然是選委會可以剔除，但是這個是影響到選委會對管理的正確性的問題嘛！"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我想大概法律上……那是個案的話，個案偵辦，我也沒辦法去……"],["陳委員培瑜：在您的職權上確實是這樣，不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞，部長聽一下我講的對不對。吳尚雨、邱世元、黃取榮、盛礎纓其實都已經被收押了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們就不就個案來討論。"],["鄭部長銘謙：盛礎纓沒有，就是吳尚雨、邱世元、還有……"],["陳委員培瑜：盛礎纓聲押獲准後以20萬元交保，但是我剛剛講的3個：吳尚雨、邱世元跟黃取榮都已經被……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有何仁傑。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍，基本上就是如同剛剛張啓楷委員說的，不分政黨，該辦就辦，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以凡是涉及到共諜就辦，剛才有提到不分黨派。至於雇用的人員是……難道每個老闆都要辦嗎？我想這個就是要個案認定，說不定人家是被害人，說不定他也是共犯之一……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我的理解……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有個案的不同，所以我沒辦法說他聘用的人員有共諜的話，每個難道都要辦嗎？我想這個看證據嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我可以這麼說，就是案件沒有分大小。我剛剛一直在聽張啓楷委員說比例原則、案件分大小，可是部長，我很好奇，就你們法務的見解，案件真的可以分大小嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：案件沒有分大小，反正涉及到犯罪就要辦。我想當檢察官的難道可以認為這個案子小就不辦，這個案子大才辦？或者以自己的能力，只想辦小案、不辦大案？我想檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案子的特權，案件本來就是指分或輪分的，案件分案有一定的程序，所以檢察官只要依照刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條，認為有告訴、告發或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑者，就要啟動偵辦的程序。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子，包括吳尚雨、邱世元、黃取榮，基本上人不分藍綠，所以我的邏輯應該是這樣：案件不分大小，人不分藍綠。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果政治力有介入的話，那這個案件……我想不管哪個黨派，政治力有介入的話，這個黨派就不辦，那個黨派就要辦，我想沒有這樣，我們是毋枉毋縱，凡是涉及不法的，當然都要辦嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，最後一個問題，其實我剛聽到也是頭皮發麻。他說偽造文書分五年以下跟七年以下，他認為這是輕罪，又是回到案件不分大小，可是我看刑法第二百七十六條過失致死也是五年以下，難道我們要用這個邏輯去看重還是輕嗎？所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦！想要聽一下部長的見解。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，而且五年以下或是幾年以下，個案的情形並不一樣，就像竊盜罪是五年以下，偷一支筆跟偷了很多東西、甚至價值連城的東西，都是五年以下，但是它後來刑法的評價、量刑不會是一樣的，但我也不能說偷鋼筆的就不辦，偷價值連城的珍貴珠寶或者是其他的東西才辦，我想檢察官不應該有這種差別性，毋枉毋縱、公正執法。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽得懂的話來回應，為什麼這麼說，因為剛剛張啓楷委員說的，甚至我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠，剛剛那個照片他說有25萬人，可是我們看臺北市警察局，就是所謂蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說，當天大概只有6萬到7萬人，我覺得這個數字也相當令人懷疑，到底是25萬還是6萬，到底那份民調所代表的民意，或者是他們想像中人民看見什麼，我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題，謝謝部長釋疑，部長請回。","接下來我要請國安局，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實今天我想問的很多問題，大概很多委員也都說了，不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟您來討論，是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行？因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到，參加組織的人不在相關法規規範範圍裡面，所以如果我們來盤點，上個禮拜在另外一個委員會也有進行相關的詢答，在人員的部分跟行為的部分，確實現在在法規上是有不足的地方，需要進行後續修法，當然我知道你們都說尊重立法院、尊重立法委員，對不對？好，但是我要提的是，當我們進行修法之後，我認為對行政機關最困難的其實是執行面，就是如何去執行這些法規範，然後如何讓所有相關工作人員在相關的案件當中，他們真的可以做到相關的執行，甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查，然後在偵查的時候，很多機密的資料，不要再無止境的外洩或者是要有有效的犯意遏阻機制，我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難，你自己怎麼看？"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員指導，修國安法或者是其他國安法制面的部分，大概相關權責部會都會邀請我們國安局參加，我們國安局也都會表達意見，只要能補國安的漏洞，我們都贊成，我們都非常樂意修這個法。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，但是我剛剛講了，你們還要提出在後續工作量能上需要的資源，因為我們常看到很多修完法之後，其實在執行層面是困難的。我也很開心聽到你說，在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與。我要拜託國安局要更務實地提出你們所需要的資源、人力或者是相關預算，好不好？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，這個我們會來辦理，謝謝指導。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，我們後續也會持續關心。","再來，最近有相關的新聞案例，我想你都非常清楚，一個是總統府憲兵隊，他們的作法我就不再細說，但是我們可以看到，他們得到的不法所得，大概算出來是184萬，我要說的是，出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這184萬，你自己怎麼看？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然出賣國家的利益，以他的所得跟國家的損失相較，實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量。"],["陳委員培瑜：也因為金錢無法量化，但是對於整體國家安全、對人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮，我認為不管是我剛剛說的修法或是後續的執行確實都會有影響。這兩天也有週刊提到中國透過親共的臺灣黑幫分子當內應，這些事情我相信你們國安局應該也都有掌握，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，我們會透過國安團隊、情報團隊，蒐集與國安有關的情報，經過我們的彙整、分析，這個確實我們也會有所掌握。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來這個就是你們提供給我們相關的報告，這個表格是對的，對不對？你們所提供的中共五大滲透管道及四大手法。"],["黃副局長明昭：是，我們在給委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我自己看到這些資料後，如同剛剛思瑤委員說的，我覺得非常的驚悚，驚悚的意思就是說，其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息，不管是在最近或者是幾個共諜案的偵辦當中，或者是陸陸續續蒐集的這些資料，我自己看到這些資料後，我覺得如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情，有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局參考，第一個，中共如此無孔不入的滲透行為，我必須要說，它非常廣泛，而且它試著想要讓這些事情是有效的，在國安沒有看見的角落，我們國安局或是整體的行政機關，如何建立廣泛、足夠而且有效預防國家機密外洩的保護措施，這是第一個。","第二個，如果國家機密一旦洩漏或者是危害國家安全的行為發生的時候，如何精準又快速的查緝，避免損害的情形擴大，這是第二個。","第三個，面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為，行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引，讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線？為什麼我剛才要問你這麼多事情？而且我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議，也就是說，在事先預防的部分，還有當事情發生的查緝，或者是在那之前，對我們一般小老百姓來說、對一般公民來說，什麼樣的行為可以做、什麼樣的行為真的不小心會踩到紅線，我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情，尤其是針對第三點，我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引？"],["黃副局長明昭：任何一個滲透的方法或者是樣態，我們都會彙整，也會公告在我們公開的網站裡面，民眾都可以上去瀏覽，我們也會將這個手法、樣態，透過不同的場合，包括發布的媒體，以告知民眾，這也是全社會教育，這是很重要的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你剛剛講到全社會教育，的確，這件事情真的非常、非常重要，因為我們可以看到，就你們剛剛的這個表格來看，不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流，或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流，過去在兩岸之間確實有很多，只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到這中間的活動可能摻雜統戰的行為在裡面，對嗎？孩子們去對岸的大學參觀，他可能不知道原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的，他們可能就安排了一個早上的課。","所以如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情、這樣的概念，我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行兩岸交流，我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們，為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要，因為我相信一般人都希望自己不要是被滲透的對象，也希望自己不要成為中共在臺灣的代理人或者是幫兇，所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人來說真的非常重要。","剛剛思瑤委員也說了，民進黨團除了修國安十法之外，後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規，但除了這件事情之外，我還想進一步跟您請教，其實王美惠委員或者是其他民進黨團的委員也都有提出來，例如說一定職等或是一定官階，符合一定條件的公務員跟軍官，如果他們從事效忠中國的行為，可以依法剝奪部分或全部的退休金，在這件事情的修法上，其實我們也受到阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會提的案子也受到阻礙。非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案，民進黨黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為。","總之，我還是要快速地說，行政機關該有的措施──如何防範中共的滲透、統戰的策略，還有如何預防、如何處置，還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人行為指引這件事情，並且擴大社會教育、全面宣導。最後我也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞，我也呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案，以上，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}