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1820.908, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,211 --> 00:00:09,583\n主席在場的媒體先進行朋友有請卓院長請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:20,540 --> 00:00:40,002\n林委員好院長剛剛好剛剛前面是林倩琦委員在質詢那我記得沒有錯的話在4月29號的時候林委員也一樣的問到了同樣的一個問題本席是基隆市出來的立法委員那也剛好說我們基隆市在2021年的時候我們的\n\n3\n00:00:41,503 --> 00:01:06,130\n這個李楊跟王麒麟得到了第一面的奧運冠軍那2024年我們又纏連世界冠軍當時之前的蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給我們基隆市的暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心那2021年到現在那我知道說林楊沛都要退休了那他們這次要宣布退休了可是我們這個\n\n4\n00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:22,500\n羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期我想請問這個院長請問您知道這個案子嗎報告委員體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情所以現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建一個羽球專項的一個訓練館經費也\n\n5\n00:01:25,552 --> 00:01:40,986\n初步的核列是3.5億要建12面的這個球場但是現在因為未來像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候會把它納入先期的計畫\n\n6\n00:01:42,208 --> 00:01:57,069\n我希望說運動部如果可以的話我會希望說早一點讓他成行我會納入新奇的計畫因為我會認為是說到目前雖然林洋沛已經退休了但是我們的羽球在國際之間還是相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動\n\n7\n00:01:58,792 --> 00:02:12,345\n老實講中華民國台灣在世界上強勢運動並不多我們也因為是強勢的運動所以我們有很多的國際人才來到我們台灣來去做這個羽球方面的訓練所以我想把這個好的已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去\n\n8\n00:02:14,947 --> 00:02:34,860\n兩位國手雖然退休但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心我們一定會把這個事情很徹底的完成那如果運動部一旦成立那麻煩請這個當作請院長這邊承諾說我說我承諾我把它列為優先的項目也謝謝委員繼續的支持謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我\n\n9\n00:02:41,590 --> 00:02:57,970\n去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來\n\n10\n00:02:58,909 --> 00:03:17,123\n這邊已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過\n\n11\n00:03:18,144 --> 00:03:46,178\n這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度\n\n12\n00:03:46,798 --> 00:04:09,793\n倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢\n\n13\n00:04:10,886 --> 00:04:39,743\n請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能\n\n14\n00:04:40,143 --> 00:04:55,895\n我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段\n\n15\n00:04:56,978 --> 00:05:11,213\n我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可信性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點\n\n16\n00:05:11,693 --> 00:05:32,390\n但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠\n\n17\n00:05:33,591 --> 00:05:49,737\n也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說截完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得截完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上在\n\n18\n00:05:51,778 --> 00:06:15,760\n在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講\n\n19\n00:06:18,582 --> 00:06:44,695\n對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員\n\n20\n00:06:48,451 --> 00:07:13,491\n如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話\n\n21\n00:07:14,411 --> 00:07:32,341\n通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下\n\n22\n00:07:33,562 --> 00:07:48,739\n然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止\n\n23\n00:07:49,259 --> 00:08:14,873\n台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖南港汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了\n\n24\n00:08:15,773 --> 00:08:33,700\n也是因為這一塊如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前的這些金融市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個\n\n25\n00:08:35,601 --> 00:09:04,781\n坡度是不夠的變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉\n\n26\n00:09:05,801 --> 00:09:32,137\n不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從\n\n27\n00:09:34,518 --> 00:09:56,724\n內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞\n\n28\n00:09:57,304 --> 00:10:17,461\n但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北七堵基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來\n\n29\n00:10:18,341 --> 00:10:43,332\n為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的這條疤叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口你剛好過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講你是怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個\n\n30\n00:10:44,412 --> 00:10:54,387\n第一山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被鐵路一分為二\n\n31\n00:10:55,342 --> 00:11:21,311\n變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣\n\n32\n00:11:22,551 --> 00:11:50,300\n從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站\n\n33\n00:11:51,020 --> 00:12:03,907\n這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大\n\n34\n00:12:07,014 --> 00:12:32,814\n如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大\n\n35\n00:12:33,931 --> 00:13:03,027\n只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有\n\n36\n00:13:04,141 --> 00:13:30,336\n那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化\n\n37\n00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:45,431\n其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運\n\n38\n00:13:46,713 --> 00:14:02,183\n很辛苦他靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化\n\n39\n00:14:03,604 --> 00:14:28,041\n這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情\n\n40\n00:14:30,683 --> 00:14:41,930\n那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已\n\n41\n00:14:44,201 --> 00:15:10,116\n所以這個吊車廠也是我們必須要評估的一個議題吊車廠如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的\n\n42\n00:15:11,998 --> 00:15:30,674\n為什麼我本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提劉文雄委員同樣在這個位置上面有提出來過\n\n43\n00:15:31,474 --> 00:15:46,411\n那這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是\n\n44\n00:15:49,132 --> 00:16:16,415\n港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候大家能夠喜歡能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講\n\n45\n00:16:17,136 --> 00:16:34,863\n北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面\n\n46\n00:16:35,183 --> 00:17:03,686\n也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談\n\n47\n00:17:04,747 --> 00:17:25,469\n好再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個\n\n48\n00:17:27,771 --> 00:17:48,190\n中央政府跟地方政府他們這港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一\n\n49\n00:17:48,951 --> 00:18:15,126\n那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像\n\n50\n00:18:16,203 --> 00:18:44,449\n基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區啊將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充\n\n51\n00:18:45,330 --> 00:19:10,991\n是報告委員威海營區你也相當熟應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個\n\n52\n00:19:12,432 --> 00:19:38,732\n推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中\n\n53\n00:19:41,406 --> 00:20:07,725\n謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己曾在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是\n\n54\n00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:36,041\n因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光的目前觀光產業變觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來\n\n55\n00:20:37,418 --> 00:20:51,405\n老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮\n\n56\n00:20:52,386 --> 00:21:19,354\n而如果以水腕開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來\n\n57\n00:21:20,274 --> 00:21:45,383\n如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納新加坡香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的\n\n58\n00:21:45,723 --> 00:22:03,034\n甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德油輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成油輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳\n\n59\n00:22:07,416 --> 00:22:23,649\n不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的FlyCrew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心\n\n60\n00:22:24,329 --> 00:22:42,006\n因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港\n\n61\n00:22:42,907 --> 00:23:07,809\n或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為郵輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實\n\n62\n00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:28,866\n比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石這些從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港商港漁港油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小\n\n63\n00:23:29,807 --> 00:23:39,651\n基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做峻深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說\n\n64\n00:23:42,526 --> 00:24:08,780\n我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的滿像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好\n\n65\n00:24:11,084 --> 00:24:17,420\n這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市\n\n66\n00:24:18,823 --> 00:24:42,958\n因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費\n\n67\n00:24:44,062 --> 00:25:07,327\n而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時以上車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprisestoryandspending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面也要人家花錢\n\n68\n00:25:08,837 --> 00:25:31,656\n但是台灣來講,可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候,我就想請行政院說,郵輪母港沒有不好,我不是說郵輪母港不好,但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點。舉例,海港城,我指的是香港的海港城,香港的海港城商場,\n\n69\n00:25:32,617 --> 00:25:50,037\n他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多localpeople,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?\n\n70\n00:25:52,701 --> 00:26:08,617\n基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市\n\n71\n00:26:09,777 --> 00:26:36,370\n會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口\n\n72\n00:26:36,770 --> 00:27:02,768\n基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主那\n\n73\n00:27:03,311 --> 00:27:30,185\n委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求譬如說台中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求\n\n74\n00:27:31,286 --> 00:27:42,942\n我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告\n\n75\n00:27:43,953 --> 00:28:07,004\n我既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子因為老實講地真的不夠如果又要發展科技又要發展產業又要發展各方面要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人\n\n76\n00:28:08,344 --> 00:28:35,905\n應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是\n\n77\n00:28:37,026 --> 00:29:01,764\n比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的這個船舶停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭\n\n78\n00:29:06,667 --> 00:29:31,092\n未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺\n\n79\n00:29:31,812 --> 00:29:49,485\n平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬一點就是說也只有這塊地\n\n80\n00:29:50,726 --> 00:30:13,212\n也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊\n\n81\n00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,908\n報告委員這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6211\t9583\t主席在場的媒體先進行朋友有請卓院長請卓院長備詢\n20540\t40002\t林委員好院長剛剛好剛剛前面是林倩琦委員在質詢那我記得沒有錯的話在4月29號的時候林委員也一樣的問到了同樣的一個問題本席是基隆市出來的立法委員那也剛好說我們基隆市在2021年的時候我們的\n41503\t66130\t這個李楊跟王麒麟得到了第一面的奧運冠軍那2024年我們又纏連世界冠軍當時之前的蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給我們基隆市的暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心那2021年到現在那我知道說林楊沛都要退休了那他們這次要宣布退休了可是我們這個\n67410\t82500\t羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期我想請問這個院長請問您知道這個案子嗎報告委員體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情所以現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建一個羽球專項的一個訓練館經費也\n85552\t100986\t初步的核列是3.5億要建12面的這個球場但是現在因為未來像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候會把它納入先期的計畫\n102208\t117069\t我希望說運動部如果可以的話我會希望說早一點讓他成行我會納入新奇的計畫因為我會認為是說到目前雖然林洋沛已經退休了但是我們的羽球在國際之間還是相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動\n118792\t132345\t老實講中華民國台灣在世界上強勢運動並不多我們也因為是強勢的運動所以我們有很多的國際人才來到我們台灣來去做這個羽球方面的訓練所以我想把這個好的已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去\n134947\t154860\t兩位國手雖然退休但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心我們一定會把這個事情很徹底的完成那如果運動部一旦成立那麻煩請這個當作請院長這邊承諾說我說我承諾我把它列為優先的項目也謝謝委員繼續的支持 謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我\n161590\t177970\t去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來\n178909\t197123\t這邊已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過\n198144\t226178\t這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度\n226798\t249793\t倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在 今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢\n250886\t279743\t請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能\n280143\t295895\t我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段\n296978\t311213\t我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可信性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點\n311693\t332390\t但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠\n333591\t349737\t也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說截完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得截完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上在\n351778\t375760\t在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講\n378582\t404695\t對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員 劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員 甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員\n408451\t433491\t如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話\n434411\t452341\t通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下\n453562\t468739\t然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止\n469259\t494873\t台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖 南港 汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了\n495773\t513700\t也是因為這一塊如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前的這些金融市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個\n515601\t544781\t坡度是不夠的 變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉\n545801\t572137\t不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從\n574518\t596724\t內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞\n597304\t617461\t但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北七堵 基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來\n618341\t643332\t為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的這條疤叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口你剛好過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講你是怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個\n644412\t654387\t第一山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被鐵路一分為二\n655342\t681311\t變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣\n682551\t710300\t從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站\n711020\t723907\t這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大\n727014\t752814\t如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大\n753931\t783027\t只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有\n784141\t810336\t那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化\n811630\t825431\t其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運\n826713\t842183\t很辛苦他靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化\n843604\t868041\t這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前 消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯 其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情\n870683\t881930\t那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已\n884201\t910116\t所以這個吊車廠也是我們必須要評估的一個議題吊車廠如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的\n911998\t930674\t為什麼我本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提劉文雄委員同樣在這個位置上面有提出來過\n931474\t946411\t那這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是\n949132\t976415\t港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候大家能夠喜歡 能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講\n977136\t994863\t北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面\n995183\t1023686\t也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談\n1024747\t1045469\t好 再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個\n1047771\t1068190\t中央政府跟地方政府他們這港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一\n1068951\t1095126\t那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像\n1096203\t1124449\t基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區啊將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充\n1125330\t1150991\t是 報告委員 威海營區你也相當熟 應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年 也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個\n1152432\t1178732\t推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中\n1181406\t1207725\t謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己曾在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是\n1209039\t1236041\t因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光的目前觀光產業變觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來\n1237418\t1251405\t老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好 基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮\n1252386\t1279354\t而如果以水腕開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來\n1280274\t1305383\t如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納 新加坡 香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的\n1305723\t1323034\t甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德油輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成油輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳\n1327416\t1343649\t不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的Fly Crew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留 馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心\n1344329\t1362006\t因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港\n1362907\t1387809\t或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為郵輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實\n1388630\t1408866\t比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石這些從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港 商港 漁港 油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小\n1409807\t1419651\t基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做峻深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說\n1422526\t1448780\t我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的滿像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好\n1451084\t1457420\t這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市\n1458823\t1482958\t因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費\n1484062\t1507327\t而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時以上車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprise story and spending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面也要人家花錢\n1508837\t1531656\t但是台灣來講,可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候,我就想請行政院說,郵輪母港沒有不好,我不是說郵輪母港不好,但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點。舉例,海港城,我指的是香港的海港城,香港的海港城商場,\n1532617\t1550037\t他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多local people,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?\n1552701\t1568617\t基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北 新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市\n1569777\t1596370\t會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口\n1596770\t1622768\t基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主那\n1623311\t1650185\t委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求譬如說台中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求\n1651286\t1662942\t我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告\n1663953\t1687004\t我既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子因為老實講地真的不夠如果又要發展科技又要發展產業又要發展各方面要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人\n1688344\t1715905\t應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是\n1717026\t1741764\t比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的這個船舶停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭\n1746667\t1771092\t未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺\n1771812\t1789485\t平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬一點就是說也只有這塊地\n1790726\t1813212\t也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊\n1816200\t1820908\t報告委員這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席在場的媒體先進行朋友有請卓院長請卓院長備詢\n林委員好院長剛剛好剛剛前面是林倩琦委員在質詢那我記得沒有錯的話在4月29號的時候林委員也一樣的問到了同樣的一個問題本席是基隆市出來的立法委員那也剛好說我們基隆市在2021年的時候我們的\n這個李楊跟王麒麟得到了第一面的奧運冠軍那2024年我們又纏連世界冠軍當時之前的蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給我們基隆市的暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心那2021年到現在那我知道說林楊沛都要退休了那他們這次要宣布退休了可是我們這個\n羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期我想請問這個院長請問您知道這個案子嗎報告委員體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情所以現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建一個羽球專項的一個訓練館經費也\n初步的核列是3.5億要建12面的這個球場但是現在因為未來像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候會把它納入先期的計畫\n我希望說運動部如果可以的話我會希望說早一點讓他成行我會納入新奇的計畫因為我會認為是說到目前雖然林洋沛已經退休了但是我們的羽球在國際之間還是相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動\n老實講中華民國台灣在世界上強勢運動並不多我們也因為是強勢的運動所以我們有很多的國際人才來到我們台灣來去做這個羽球方面的訓練所以我想把這個好的已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去\n兩位國手雖然退休但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心我們一定會把這個事情很徹底的完成那如果運動部一旦成立那麻煩請這個當作請院長這邊承諾說我說我承諾我把它列為優先的項目也謝謝委員繼續的支持 謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我\n去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來\n這邊已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過\n這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度\n倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在 今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢\n請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能\n我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段\n我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可信性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點\n但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠\n也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說截完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得截完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上在\n在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講\n對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員 劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員 甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員\n如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話\n通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下\n然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止\n台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖 南港 汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了\n也是因為這一塊如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前的這些金融市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個\n坡度是不夠的 變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉\n不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從\n內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞\n但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北七堵 基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來\n為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的這條疤叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口你剛好過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講你是怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個\n第一山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被鐵路一分為二\n變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣\n從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站\n這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大\n如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大\n只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有\n那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化\n其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運\n很辛苦他靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化\n這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前 消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯 其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情\n那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已\n所以這個吊車廠也是我們必須要評估的一個議題吊車廠如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的\n為什麼我本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提劉文雄委員同樣在這個位置上面有提出來過\n那這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是\n港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候大家能夠喜歡 能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講\n北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面\n也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談\n好 再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個\n中央政府跟地方政府他們這港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一\n那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像\n基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區啊將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充\n是 報告委員 威海營區你也相當熟 應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年 也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個\n推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中\n謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己曾在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是\n因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光的目前觀光產業變觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來\n老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好 基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮\n而如果以水腕開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來\n如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納 新加坡 香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的\n甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德油輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成油輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳\n不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的Fly Crew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留 馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心\n因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港\n或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為郵輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實\n比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石這些從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港 商港 漁港 油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小\n基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做峻深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說\n我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的滿像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好\n這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市\n因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費\n而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時以上車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprise story and spending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面也要人家花錢\n但是台灣來講,可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候,我就想請行政院說,郵輪母港沒有不好,我不是說郵輪母港不好,但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點。舉例,海港城,我指的是香港的海港城,香港的海港城商場,\n他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多local people,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?\n基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北 新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市\n會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口\n基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主那\n委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求譬如說台中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求\n我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告\n我既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子因為老實講地真的不夠如果又要發展科技又要發展產業又要發展各方面要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人\n應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是\n比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的這個船舶停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭\n未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺\n平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬一點就是說也只有這塊地\n也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊\n報告委員這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.211 --> 00:09.583\n主席在場的媒體先進行朋友有請卓院長請卓院長備詢\n\n00:20.540 --> 00:40.002\n林委員好院長剛剛好剛剛前面是林倩琦委員在質詢那我記得沒有錯的話在4月29號的時候林委員也一樣的問到了同樣的一個問題本席是基隆市出來的立法委員那也剛好說我們基隆市在2021年的時候我們的\n\n00:41.503 --> 01:06.130\n這個李楊跟王麒麟得到了第一面的奧運冠軍那2024年我們又纏連世界冠軍當時之前的蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給我們基隆市的暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心那2021年到現在那我知道說林楊沛都要退休了那他們這次要宣布退休了可是我們這個\n\n01:07.410 --> 01:22.500\n羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期我想請問這個院長請問您知道這個案子嗎報告委員體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情所以現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建一個羽球專項的一個訓練館經費也\n\n01:25.552 --> 01:40.986\n初步的核列是3.5億要建12面的這個球場但是現在因為未來像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候會把它納入先期的計畫\n\n01:42.208 --> 01:57.069\n我希望說運動部如果可以的話我會希望說早一點讓他成行我會納入新奇的計畫因為我會認為是說到目前雖然林洋沛已經退休了但是我們的羽球在國際之間還是相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動\n\n01:58.792 --> 02:12.345\n老實講中華民國台灣在世界上強勢運動並不多我們也因為是強勢的運動所以我們有很多的國際人才來到我們台灣來去做這個羽球方面的訓練所以我想把這個好的已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去\n\n02:14.947 --> 02:34.860\n兩位國手雖然退休但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心我們一定會把這個事情很徹底的完成那如果運動部一旦成立那麻煩請這個當作請院長這邊承諾說我說我承諾我把它列為優先的項目也謝謝委員繼續的支持謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我\n\n02:41.590 --> 02:57.970\n去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來\n\n02:58.909 --> 03:17.123\n這邊已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過\n\n03:18.144 --> 03:46.178\n這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度\n\n03:46.798 --> 04:09.793\n倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢\n\n04:10.886 --> 04:39.743\n請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能\n\n04:40.143 --> 04:55.895\n我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段\n\n04:56.978 --> 05:11.213\n我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可信性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點\n\n05:11.693 --> 05:32.390\n但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠\n\n05:33.591 --> 05:49.737\n也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說截完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得截完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上在\n\n05:51.778 --> 06:15.760\n在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講\n\n06:18.582 --> 06:44.695\n對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員\n\n06:48.451 --> 07:13.491\n如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話\n\n07:14.411 --> 07:32.341\n通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下\n\n07:33.562 --> 07:48.739\n然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止\n\n07:49.259 --> 08:14.873\n台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖南港汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了\n\n08:15.773 --> 08:33.700\n也是因為這一塊如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前的這些金融市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個\n\n08:35.601 --> 09:04.781\n坡度是不夠的變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉\n\n09:05.801 --> 09:32.137\n不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從\n\n09:34.518 --> 09:56.724\n內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞\n\n09:57.304 --> 10:17.461\n但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北七堵基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來\n\n10:18.341 --> 10:43.332\n為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的這條疤叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口你剛好過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講你是怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個\n\n10:44.412 --> 10:54.387\n第一山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被鐵路一分為二\n\n10:55.342 --> 11:21.311\n變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣\n\n11:22.551 --> 11:50.300\n從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站\n\n11:51.020 --> 12:03.907\n這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大\n\n12:07.014 --> 12:32.814\n如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大\n\n12:33.931 --> 13:03.027\n只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有\n\n13:04.141 --> 13:30.336\n那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化\n\n13:31.630 --> 13:45.431\n其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運\n\n13:46.713 --> 14:02.183\n很辛苦他靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化\n\n14:03.604 --> 14:28.041\n這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情\n\n14:30.683 --> 14:41.930\n那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已\n\n14:44.201 --> 15:10.116\n所以這個吊車廠也是我們必須要評估的一個議題吊車廠如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的\n\n15:11.998 --> 15:30.674\n為什麼我本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提劉文雄委員同樣在這個位置上面有提出來過\n\n15:31.474 --> 15:46.411\n那這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是\n\n15:49.132 --> 16:16.415\n港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候大家能夠喜歡能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講\n\n16:17.136 --> 16:34.863\n北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面\n\n16:35.183 --> 17:03.686\n也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談\n\n17:04.747 --> 17:25.469\n好再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個\n\n17:27.771 --> 17:48.190\n中央政府跟地方政府他們這港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一\n\n17:48.951 --> 18:15.126\n那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像\n\n18:16.203 --> 18:44.449\n基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區啊將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充\n\n18:45.330 --> 19:10.991\n是報告委員威海營區你也相當熟應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個\n\n19:12.432 --> 19:38.732\n推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中\n\n19:41.406 --> 20:07.725\n謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己曾在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是\n\n20:09.039 --> 20:36.041\n因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光的目前觀光產業變觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來\n\n20:37.418 --> 20:51.405\n老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮\n\n20:52.386 --> 21:19.354\n而如果以水腕開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來\n\n21:20.274 --> 21:45.383\n如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納新加坡香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的\n\n21:45.723 --> 22:03.034\n甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德油輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成油輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳\n\n22:07.416 --> 22:23.649\n不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的FlyCrew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心\n\n22:24.329 --> 22:42.006\n因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港\n\n22:42.907 --> 23:07.809\n或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為郵輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實\n\n23:08.630 --> 23:28.866\n比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石這些從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港商港漁港油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小\n\n23:29.807 --> 23:39.651\n基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做峻深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說\n\n23:42.526 --> 24:08.780\n我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的滿像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好\n\n24:11.084 --> 24:17.420\n這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市\n\n24:18.823 --> 24:42.958\n因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費\n\n24:44.062 --> 25:07.327\n而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時以上車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprisestoryandspending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面也要人家花錢\n\n25:08.837 --> 25:31.656\n但是台灣來講,可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候,我就想請行政院說,郵輪母港沒有不好,我不是說郵輪母港不好,但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點。舉例,海港城,我指的是香港的海港城,香港的海港城商場,\n\n25:32.617 --> 25:50.037\n他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多localpeople,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?\n\n25:52.701 --> 26:08.617\n基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市\n\n26:09.777 --> 26:36.370\n會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口\n\n26:36.770 --> 27:02.768\n基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主那\n\n27:03.311 --> 27:30.185\n委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求譬如說台中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求\n\n27:31.286 --> 27:42.942\n我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告\n\n27:43.953 --> 28:07.004\n我既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子因為老實講地真的不夠如果又要發展科技又要發展產業又要發展各方面要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人\n\n28:08.344 --> 28:35.905\n應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是\n\n28:37.026 --> 29:01.764\n比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的這個船舶停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭\n\n29:06.667 --> 29:31.092\n未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺\n\n29:31.812 --> 29:49.485\n平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬一點就是說也只有這塊地\n\n29:50.726 --> 30:13.212\n也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊\n\n30:16.200 --> 30:20.908\n報告委員這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.211,"end":9.583,"text":"主席在場的媒體先進行朋友有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":20.54,"end":40.002,"text":"林委員好院長剛剛好剛剛前面是林倩琦委員在質詢那我記得沒有錯的話在4月29號的時候林委員也一樣的問到了同樣的一個問題本席是基隆市出來的立法委員那也剛好說我們基隆市在2021年的時候我們的"},{"start":41.503,"end":66.13,"text":"這個李楊跟王麒麟得到了第一面的奧運冠軍那2024年我們又纏連世界冠軍當時之前的蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給我們基隆市的暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心那2021年到現在那我知道說林楊沛都要退休了那他們這次要宣布退休了可是我們這個"},{"start":67.41,"end":82.5,"text":"羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期我想請問這個院長請問您知道這個案子嗎報告委員體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情所以現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建一個羽球專項的一個訓練館經費也"},{"start":85.552,"end":100.986,"text":"初步的核列是3.5億要建12面的這個球場但是現在因為未來像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候會把它納入先期的計畫"},{"start":102.208,"end":117.069,"text":"我希望說運動部如果可以的話我會希望說早一點讓他成行我會納入新奇的計畫因為我會認為是說到目前雖然林洋沛已經退休了但是我們的羽球在國際之間還是相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動"},{"start":118.792,"end":132.345,"text":"老實講中華民國台灣在世界上強勢運動並不多我們也因為是強勢的運動所以我們有很多的國際人才來到我們台灣來去做這個羽球方面的訓練所以我想把這個好的已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去"},{"start":134.947,"end":154.86,"text":"兩位國手雖然退休但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心我們一定會把這個事情很徹底的完成那如果運動部一旦成立那麻煩請這個當作請院長這邊承諾說我說我承諾我把它列為優先的項目也謝謝委員繼續的支持 謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我"},{"start":161.59,"end":177.97,"text":"去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來"},{"start":178.909,"end":197.123,"text":"這邊已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過"},{"start":198.144,"end":226.178,"text":"這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度"},{"start":226.798,"end":249.793,"text":"倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在 今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢"},{"start":250.886,"end":279.743,"text":"請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能"},{"start":280.143,"end":295.895,"text":"我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段"},{"start":296.978,"end":311.213,"text":"我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可信性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點"},{"start":311.693,"end":332.39,"text":"但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠"},{"start":333.591,"end":349.737,"text":"也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說截完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得截完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上在"},{"start":351.778,"end":375.76,"text":"在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講"},{"start":378.582,"end":404.695,"text":"對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員 劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員 甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員"},{"start":408.451,"end":433.491,"text":"如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話"},{"start":434.411,"end":452.341,"text":"通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下"},{"start":453.562,"end":468.739,"text":"然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止"},{"start":469.259,"end":494.873,"text":"台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖 南港 汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了"},{"start":495.773,"end":513.7,"text":"也是因為這一塊如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前的這些金融市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個"},{"start":515.601,"end":544.781,"text":"坡度是不夠的 變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉"},{"start":545.801,"end":572.137,"text":"不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從"},{"start":574.518,"end":596.724,"text":"內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞"},{"start":597.304,"end":617.461,"text":"但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北七堵 基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來"},{"start":618.341,"end":643.332,"text":"為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的這條疤叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口你剛好過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講你是怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個"},{"start":644.412,"end":654.387,"text":"第一山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被鐵路一分為二"},{"start":655.342,"end":681.311,"text":"變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣"},{"start":682.551,"end":710.3,"text":"從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站"},{"start":711.02,"end":723.907,"text":"這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大"},{"start":727.014,"end":752.814,"text":"如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大"},{"start":753.931,"end":783.027,"text":"只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有"},{"start":784.141,"end":810.336,"text":"那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化"},{"start":811.63,"end":825.431,"text":"其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運"},{"start":826.713,"end":842.183,"text":"很辛苦他靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化"},{"start":843.604,"end":868.041,"text":"這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前 消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯 其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情"},{"start":870.683,"end":881.93,"text":"那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已"},{"start":884.201,"end":910.116,"text":"所以這個吊車廠也是我們必須要評估的一個議題吊車廠如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的"},{"start":911.998,"end":930.674,"text":"為什麼我本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提劉文雄委員同樣在這個位置上面有提出來過"},{"start":931.474,"end":946.411,"text":"那這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是"},{"start":949.132,"end":976.415,"text":"港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候大家能夠喜歡 能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講"},{"start":977.136,"end":994.863,"text":"北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面"},{"start":995.183,"end":1023.686,"text":"也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談"},{"start":1024.747,"end":1045.469,"text":"好 再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個"},{"start":1047.771,"end":1068.19,"text":"中央政府跟地方政府他們這港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一"},{"start":1068.951,"end":1095.126,"text":"那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像"},{"start":1096.203,"end":1124.449,"text":"基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區啊將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充"},{"start":1125.33,"end":1150.991,"text":"是 報告委員 威海營區你也相當熟 應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年 也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個"},{"start":1152.432,"end":1178.732,"text":"推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中"},{"start":1181.406,"end":1207.725,"text":"謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己曾在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是"},{"start":1209.039,"end":1236.041,"text":"因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光的目前觀光產業變觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來"},{"start":1237.418,"end":1251.405,"text":"老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好 基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮"},{"start":1252.386,"end":1279.354,"text":"而如果以水腕開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來"},{"start":1280.274,"end":1305.383,"text":"如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納 新加坡 香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的"},{"start":1305.723,"end":1323.034,"text":"甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德油輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成油輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳"},{"start":1327.416,"end":1343.649,"text":"不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的Fly Crew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留 馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心"},{"start":1344.329,"end":1362.006,"text":"因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港"},{"start":1362.907,"end":1387.809,"text":"或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為郵輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實"},{"start":1388.63,"end":1408.866,"text":"比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石這些從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港 商港 漁港 油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小"},{"start":1409.807,"end":1419.651,"text":"基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做峻深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說"},{"start":1422.526,"end":1448.78,"text":"我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的滿像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好"},{"start":1451.084,"end":1457.42,"text":"這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市"},{"start":1458.823,"end":1482.958,"text":"因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費"},{"start":1484.062,"end":1507.327,"text":"而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時以上車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprise story and spending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面也要人家花錢"},{"start":1508.837,"end":1531.656,"text":"但是台灣來講,可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候,我就想請行政院說,郵輪母港沒有不好,我不是說郵輪母港不好,但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點。舉例,海港城,我指的是香港的海港城,香港的海港城商場,"},{"start":1532.617,"end":1550.037,"text":"他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多local people,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?"},{"start":1552.701,"end":1568.617,"text":"基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北 新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市"},{"start":1569.777,"end":1596.37,"text":"會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口"},{"start":1596.77,"end":1622.768,"text":"基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主那"},{"start":1623.311,"end":1650.185,"text":"委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求譬如說台中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求"},{"start":1651.286,"end":1662.942,"text":"我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告"},{"start":1663.953,"end":1687.004,"text":"我既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子因為老實講地真的不夠如果又要發展科技又要發展產業又要發展各方面要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人"},{"start":1688.344,"end":1715.905,"text":"應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是"},{"start":1717.026,"end":1741.764,"text":"比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的這個船舶停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭"},{"start":1746.667,"end":1771.092,"text":"未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺"},{"start":1771.812,"end":1789.485,"text":"平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬一點就是說也只有這塊地"},{"start":1790.726,"end":1813.212,"text":"也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊"},{"start":1816.2,"end":1820.908,"text":"報告委員這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時4分）主席、在場的媒體先進好朋友。有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，剛剛好前面是林倩綺委員質詢，我記得沒錯的話，在4月29號林委員也問到同樣的問題。本席是基隆市出來的立法委員，也剛好我們基隆市在2021年的時候，李洋跟王齊麟得到了第一面奧運冠軍，2024年我們又蟬聯世界冠軍，之前蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給基隆市暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心。2021年到現在，我知道麟洋配都要退休了，他們也正式宣布退休，可是我們這個羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期。我想請問院長，您知道這個案子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情，現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建羽球專項的一個訓練館，經費也初步核列是3.5億，要建12面球場。"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是因為像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部，所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候把它納入先期計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。就運動部，如果可以的話，我會希望早一點讓它成型。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我會納入先期的計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：對，因為我會認為，到目前為止，雖然麟洋配已經退休了，但我們的羽球在國際間相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動，老實講中華民國臺灣在世界上強勢的運動並不多，也因為是我們強勢的運動，所以有很多國際人才到臺灣做羽球方面的訓練。所以我想，這個好的、已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩位國手雖然退休，但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心，我們一定會把這個事情很澈底地完成。"],["林委員沛祥：對，謝謝。如果運動部一旦成立，那麻煩請把這個當作是，院長這邊承諾把它做優……"],["卓院長榮泰：我承諾，我把它列為優先的項目。"],["林委員沛祥：優先項目，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，也謝謝委員繼續支持。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。第二個案子就順便有請陳世凱部長一起，這個案子其實我去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過，但是我會認為這個案子可能也要特地請院長支持。當初我們在談論是因為去年風災造成鐵路淹水，造成過去5年以來，這個平交道已經發生了20起交通事故，其實很嚴重。但是後來當我回顧過去，還有回顧過去的這些不管是交通事故也好，還是都市發展也好，甚至有關臺鐵目前的狀況，我那時候也跟陳世凱部長提過，這個案子我會希望我們真的能夠推動，雖然從外觀看起來只是單純的鐵路外移，從目前最容易淹水、最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去，可能也要看交通部未來的規劃。但是實質上如果成功的話，我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候，有關臺鐵誤點，尤其是花東上來臺鐵誤點的狀況，其實與其說我們增快速度，倒不如說我們減低誤點率、倒不如說我們能夠用減低誤點率的方式來增加班次，可能這種截彎取直的方式，今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過。我想在這邊，請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫，並指示交通部跟臺鐵各相關單位好好做一個可行性評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：請交通部先說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分可能要連同……我們目前短期先做的是讓它這個排水先做好，不要發生淹水，委員有提到淹水的問題，確實也是困擾著臺鐵，所以排水的部分我們先努力，短期來看是這個樣子；中長期的話，因為如果是路線遷移或者外推，有可能會牽涉到徵收或者拆民房的問題，這個問題會比較複雜一點。所以我們希望有沒有可能朝向整個立體化的可能性來討論，這個部分可能會相對務實一點。不過可行性研究的部分，我們願意協助基隆市政府辦理可行性研究，如果他們認為可行的話，他們先做可行性研究，我們一起來努力這一段。"],["林委員沛祥：我這邊比較期待的是，如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可行性評估，因為主要是整個臺鐵，而且臺鐵的功能主要是說……當然，對基隆市絕對有幫助，我是基隆的委員，當然要幫基隆多爭取一點。但是我們也知道在北部，我們遇到的是臺鐵並沒有不好，目前臺鐵的運行都還算不錯，尤其是桃園以北，基本上都算是臺鐵的黃金路線，而且不管營運或營利都是很好的，但是最被人家詬病的反而是誤點率，也就是有時候車子到了臺北卻要讓其他的線先行。所以我會覺得，與其重新建鐵路，倒不如截彎取直，在基隆這一段，我覺得截彎取直的措施是很可取的，而且能在不做大量改動之前，讓整個鐵路的運行實質上變得更通暢，就這一點來講，我會希望能夠得到整個行政院的支持去做這個計畫。當然，我是比較期待如果可以的話，能在一年之內提出可行性評估，然後再來一步、一步進行後面的規劃設計。","對我個人來講，當然，我是第一年擔任立法委員，但是我的前輩們，不管是之前的謝國樑委員、劉文雄委員、徐少萍委員，甚至王拓委員、張堅華委員，他們都曾經提過這個案子，只是我覺得現在臺鐵已經saturated、已經飽和到一種程度，我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加臺鐵的使用率？請問院長您認為呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果是立體化的話，是可以比較澈底解決整體的問題；如果外移的話，其實過去20年大家都在努力，但是確實也遇到一些問題，我剛剛也有提過，就是有可能會遇到拆遷的問題，也有可能會遇到用地的問題，這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服，如果容易克服的話，應該早就已經移動了。所以立體化的部分我是這樣希望啦，因為如果委員可以接受立體化的話，通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做，不過這個經費中央可以協助，這個協助、補助的部分我們會來協助。"],["林委員沛祥：那麼有關立體化的部分，更細節的相關計畫就麻煩交通部再多跟我聯繫一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：接下來其實還是有關鐵路的議題，這個議題相對比較大，雖然只單純是七堵到基隆之間的地下化。其實整個北臺灣的發展從臺北以北，基本上從內湖、南港到汐止，現在整個產業和土地都已經處在飽和狀態了，但是當我們仔細看所謂的北臺灣河谷廊帶的時候，其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路把基隆很多最精華的地，甚至未來產業可以發展的地全部吃掉了，也是因為這一塊，我們希望可以做鐵路地下化。","以前基隆市民意代表提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去，但是以我自己的瞭解，鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話，坡度其實是不夠的，那樣鐵道是無法往上起來的，所以必須從更遠的地方去做。但是從七堵開始下去的話，所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫助我們北臺灣各方面的科技園區。我記得當初好像在前瞻計畫裡面提過一個北臺灣海洋門戶之類的科技計畫，這個計畫當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地去做規劃，所以如果我們把鐵路拿掉，不只是對基隆市，對未來整個北臺灣的發展都很有前瞻性，而且是真正的前瞻性。","因為當我們看到內湖、南港天天在塞車，偏偏產業天天都想進駐內湖、南港，但是繼續往下發展又沒有地，變成北臺灣的發展就到此為止嗎？還是說因為一個鐵路的存在，而沒有辦法繼續讓我們的產業整塊地都變得很漂亮？如果只是單純以河谷的發展來講的話，從內湖、南港、汐止，到五堵、七堵、基隆，這整片地呈現出來的時候，才是我們期待看到的──以基隆為「臺灣頭」來講，整塊直接變成一個北臺灣的亮點。","過去鐵路的發展在中華民國的發展史上絕對有很大的功勞，但是現在似乎到了轉型的時候了！所以我正式在這邊提出，能不能請行政院好好考慮，從基隆市到七堵之間，臺北、七堵、基隆，從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後，把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶空出來？為什麼我特地提這件事？我對這件事情非常的上心，因為如果成功的話，我常常有一個比較不好的比喻，就是基隆市的臉是有一條疤的，這條疤叫做鐵路，變成基隆市的市容。卓院長，我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆，我在站路口，你剛好過來這邊拜票，世凱兄就不用講，你是基隆女婿，我們就不用講那麼多，但是我們都覺得基隆一個依山傍海的城市，為什麼會看到覺得怎麼有點缺陷？其實缺陷的原因就是基隆市的市容被鐵路一分為二，因為有鐵路的存在，所以基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地，這句話是當初已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過的，他說基隆市很可惜，他一直都說從31號橋上面左右看的時候，你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地，同樣的，從七堵那邊看的時候，你也發現如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話，我們整塊地的規劃會不一樣。從我的角度來看，當然我們知道七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後，不只是對捷運比較方便、對於整個城市發展比較方便，但是這一塊如果真的拿開，以前是不敢做，不是不行，以前不敢做是因為鐵路的依賴性還夠，但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢、慢慢減少成通勤的時候，其實我們可以考慮能不能從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站，這樣來做的時候，各位，這整塊地要做TOD也好、要做捷運站也好、要發展產業也好、要做社會住宅也好、要再去發展任何的工業、任何產業都很有機會，因為這塊地夠大。","如果仔細看的話，從三坑那邊，一過山洞之後整塊地，所謂的都市，對於基隆市、對於我一個基隆長大的小孩來講，都市縫合，把這個鐵路拿掉、把我們市容恢復，讓基隆整塊來做開發，我認為這是我身為基隆人，我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方，甚至如果您贊同我的想法，把北臺灣做大，只要把鐵路地下化，我們真的有機會把北臺灣做大，我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後，好像沒什麼地了，如果基隆可以發展起來，旁邊的七星區、金山、萬里、九份、瑞芳、金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來，因為以基隆為一個hub，老實講，我想世凱兄也知道基隆本身就是七星區的hub，如果基隆發展起來，再輻射出去的時候，不管是金山、萬里也好，還是瑞芳、貢寮也好，未來的發展性才有。這一塊如果我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具，不管捷運還是輕軌，如果沒有地，那都很可惜，可是現在這塊地在哪裡？在鐵路上面。不是不要鐵路，我完全不認同所謂捷運換臺鐵這句話，我完全不能認同，因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合，而且實質上來講，對大眾運輸的效用不彰，但是如果鐵路地下化，其實不是只有單單純純對於大眾運輸而已，而是對於我們臺灣整個發展就會變得不一樣，院長，您認為是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。從各國的發展來看，軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運是很辛苦，它靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發，所以我們已經有鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的整個作業標準，但是我知道七堵段的地下化應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估，我所知道目前是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估？請交通部說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，其實跟委員報告，我剛剛有說過，鐵路的立體化，不管是高架或者是地下化，這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估，而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府，如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫，我們就有機會來討論這件事情。七堵的部分相對特別一點，因為委員是基隆在地的，也很清楚，您會提到那塊地，就是因為我們旁邊還有一個臺鐵的調車場，所以才會有一塊很大的用地，不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已，所以調車場也是我們必須要評估的一個議題，就是調車場如果不在那裡，那麼我們要設在哪裡？當然如果軌道地下化之後，調車場要整個地下化的機率是不高，但是要找地方，所以這個部分沒有關係，議題可以一個一個來解套、想辦法，但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下，如果他們願意啟動，我們是願意補助可行性評估的經費。"],["林委員沛祥：好，為什麼本席會對這件事很上心？其實我的個性是不喜歡占人家便宜，就算是已經走掉的人；我記得沒錯的話，這個案子我第一次是聽劉文雄委員提出來的，我不知道張堅華委員有沒有提過，但劉文雄委員有特別在這個同樣的位置上提出來過，如果這個案子能夠成功，我們都希望基隆市可以完全改頭換面，但是老實說，我記得沒有錯的話，基隆市100塊土地裡面，有94塊是山坡地，只有6塊平地，而這6塊平地中，有3塊是港務局和港務公司的，就這一點來講，我們就很有必要想辦法生出土地來，所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候，我也希望自己的故鄉變得更漂亮，能夠讓大家來的時候感到喜歡、開心；更重要的是，就整個都市發展來講，如果沒有地，其實有再先進的技術、再先進的觀念，對這個城市都不會有幫助。目前來講，我個人認為北臺灣的發展已經到了一個瓶頸，因為地理環境、地形就是這樣子，路廊就是這樣子，不管是哪個地方，在其他國家也是這樣，和我過去去過的國家比較起來，北臺灣的發展程度真的算是非常非常saturated，就是非常非常擁擠，所以如果我們臺灣要再把自己的餅做大，尤其是北臺灣，可能基隆的發展，就是我剛剛提到的鐵路地下化，地下化的目的就是把地空出來，不管是基於商業利益、基於城市發展，還是基於未來整個生活型態的改變，我覺得這一塊是不能忽視的，因此我才把這件事情特地在總質詢時提出來討論。","好，再來談到另外一個議題，這個議題就更大了一點，我是基隆人，而基隆市的存在是因為基隆港，但是基隆市和基隆港兩邊的關係很特別，理論上應該是共生，但因為當初中央政府跟地方政府的關係，我記得沒錯的話，到目前為止，港務公司和航港局還是隸屬於中央，這跟其他國家不一樣，像洛杉磯、香港還有巴塞隆納，這三個都是市港合一，我知道這有很多時空背景和歷史淵源，市港合一在臺灣不容易被執行，雖然市港不能在行政命令上合一，但是在發展上應該趨於一致，在此我想請問院長和部長，對於未來基隆港的發展，你們有什麼想像？"],["卓院長榮泰：基隆港最近幾年的變化相當大，尤其是成為若干郵輪的母港之後，未來加速建設成為必要的途徑，在軍港西遷之後，移出來的威海營區，我們今年就要開始進行一些相關的可行性評估，希望在4年之後，能夠針對整個營區做整體規劃，然後就可以開始試辦營運，細節部分請交通部補充說明。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，威海營區你也相當熟，應該是從小看到大，目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT促參的案子，交通部已經授權給航港局進行這方面的工作，目前也有一些進度，我們在114年，也就是今年4月30號已經召開過公聽會，相關都市計畫的審查也要開始作業。另外，我們也跟基隆市政府共組推動小組，推動小組目前正在規劃未來這塊地應該怎麼運用會比較好，因為基隆腹地小，就像委員剛剛提到的，它的腹地確實不夠、非常小，而基隆鄉親需要很多商業空間，觀光客也需要很多採購或餐飲空間，甚至是旅宿空間，這些都會納入我們這塊土地BOT的想像，目前正在推動當中。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝院長跟部長的回答，我為什麼會把這件事特地提出來？其實我也參加了4月30號的這個BOT公聽會，公聽會本身的內容我的意見不太大，但是我比較擔心的是，因為我自己曾在港務公司待過，我在港務公司5、6年，那時候做的就是國際行銷，我想部長應該知道，我們去年曾在交通委員會裡面常聊到這一塊。另外一方面，因為現在我們的觀光，其實……我們今天就不要再談目前的觀光由觀光產業變觀光慘業的這件事情，這件事情是我們所有人的痛。但另一方面也證實了我曾經聽過的一句話，如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的經濟引擎的話，就會有很高的風險，因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來。","老實講，這就是為什麼我覺得現在臺灣也好、基隆也好，我們常講說我們要發展觀光，發展觀光是好事，但是如果發展觀光，尤其是水岸開發的話，你沒有人潮，你就沒有錢潮；如果以水岸開發來講的話，怎麼讓當地的居民能夠多involve、能夠多進來這個場域裡面，甚至願意多消費，至於是什麼樣形式的消費，其實是我們之後要再來討論的，但是他們只要有意願多來，你有人潮，你才會有錢潮。如果說連local的people、連local的人都不來的話，就不可能讓全國的人過來，如果全國的人不來的話，就不可能讓外國人過來。所以變成是說……","我自己在港務公司任職去做整個交通規劃、觀光規劃的時候，我就很納悶，很多人會把郵輪母港這件事情放得很重，但是事實上來講，我去過巴塞隆納、新加坡、香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港，基本上那邊都是沒有人的。甚至我記得好像是去年5月的新聞，香港啟德郵輪碼頭已經證實其使用率太低，變成這一塊他們很有可能要放棄。啟德碼頭本來是啟德機場重新建出來的，他們變成郵輪碼頭之後卻營運不佳，不是他們不努力，請不要懷疑香港，嚴格講起來，他們的fly cruise各方面都比我們強太多，但是尷尬的是說，郵輪碼頭就是當下人很多，他們也不想留，馬上就離開，所以當我一直聽到要跟郵輪母港去做連結的時候，其實我很擔心，因為基隆這個東1、東6到東8碼頭，未來如果真的都變郵輪母港的話，其實就是有一天、沒一天，我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人，可是平常沒人，但是既然我們要發展的話，把它拿來當郵輪母港，我覺得或許要請行政院再三考量。以前我在基隆市議會講這些話的時候，我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策，但是我在這邊，身為一個基隆人，我一定要提出來，如果說與其成為郵輪母港，倒不如變成遊憩港，尤其是變成水岸開發，讓大家有親水空間、親水的環境，那個其實比較有商機，對整個港口也比較負責。","基隆港其實有很多……從過去到現在，除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外，像大理石這些是從花蓮港上之外，基隆港什麼功能都有，軍港、商港、漁港、遊憩港，你想到什麼就有什麼。但也尷尬的是基隆港很小，基隆港其實真的很小，所以以這點來講，我們今天也不用去談需不需要再去dredging、需不需要再去做浚深的動作。","如果只是單純以水岸開發來講，我記得上禮拜中曾根康隆，也就是日本的國會議員，剛好有幸他們來基隆，然後我們有聊到，他說基隆給他的感覺真的蠻像橫濱（Yokohama）的感覺，因為全世界很少有幾個港口、有幾個城市，港口就在城市中心，然後船直接進來。但尷尬的是，我說基隆可以變Yokohama，也可以變巴爾的摩（Baltimore），巴爾的摩其實做得沒有很好。為什麼這邊要特意提出來這點？就是要請行政院去考慮，我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市？因為「北部海洋國家門戶」這句話其實有點重，但是如果說我們希望北部海洋國家門戶長成什麼樣子，我們希望它怎麼呈現？其實我還是要回到一句話，如果觀光只做外國客的話，那對本國客……我們臺灣的消費能力其實不差，但是在他們願意回來的時候，如何讓他們在基隆也可以消費，而不是都跑到臺北消費，我覺得可能全臺灣各縣市都有一樣的問題，除非距離太遠，超過一個小時或兩個小時以上的車程，不然很多人到最後都會選擇來臺北消費而不在本地消費。我認為在觀光上面這可能是大家的痛，因為觀光到最後面就是surprise、story and spending，就是要給人家驚喜、要給人家故事，最後面也要人家花錢，但是以臺灣來講，可能臺北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。","今天我在講基隆的時候，我就想請行政院，郵輪母港沒有不好，我不是說郵輪母港不好，但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點？舉例海港城，我指的是香港的海港城商場，他們並不是郵輪母港，只是剛好碼頭夠深，可以停一臺小郵輪而已，他們主要還是商業、主要還是說在商業之外，他們很多local people、在地的人會去那邊消費，這才是我認為水岸開發可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來這應該怎麼樣去處理呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：基隆是一個很典型可以港市合一的，它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小，所以現在把軍港移走之後，也希望多一點腹地。再來，基隆跟它背後的臺北、新北，尤其臺北這個國際性的大都市會帶來更大的吸引力。我們還是希望，當然除了郵輪母港之外，它還有其他，尤其是未來首都圈黃金廊帶，北北基宜四個縣市合起來，我們的六大區域產業及生活圈裡面，北北基宜是首都圈黃金廊帶，裡面有科技、有觀光、有商業、有文化等等，都會在裡面，基隆是一個門戶，臺北最大的困難就是沒有臨海、沒有臨港口，基隆將來可能就是臺北對外重大的門戶，至於很多細項的布局及步驟，我們都一步一步在推動。"],["林委員沛祥：部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您說的沒有錯，其實基隆港的商業需求還是很大，我們的客運，以郵輪港來講的話，大概只占它整體收入的5%，大部分還是以貨運為主。委員在思考的應該也跟我思考的差不多，就是基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間，包含購買、包含用餐，甚至不要說是郵輪來的客人，臺灣國內的客人也有一些旅宿的需求，譬如臺中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店住，所以優先應該去思考的是在地人的需求及臺灣本土旅客的需求。當然在靠近郵輪港的旁邊，碼頭設施也相當健全，我們也希望能夠吸引到國外旅客搭乘郵輪來到臺灣之後可以進去消費，所以順序上大概是這個樣子，跟委員報告。"],["林委員沛祥：既然剛剛院長都提到這個黃金廊帶，我認真覺得，我會建請基隆市政府儘快提出基隆到七堵之間鐵路地下化的案子，因為老實講地真的不夠，如果又要發展科技、又要發展產業、又要發展各方面、又要符合所有北北基人口的需求，北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人，差不多超過800萬人，700萬到800萬人左右，等於將近臺灣人口的三分之一以上。如果是這種情況之下的話，我們就很需要多一點土地去做區域發展及都市發展，甚至國家發展都跑不掉。既然今天院長和部長都提到，如果地方政府願意做可行性評估，中央願意幫忙的話，我會回去跟基隆市政府來做溝通。","另外一方面比較尷尬的是，我也知道基隆港的收入5%，甚至搞不好更低，就是來自遊輪的船舶停泊費之類的，但是未來也不免俗，我們現在有很多方向，譬如能不能去正視其他業者等等。當然內客外貨，但是我也必須在最後的1分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題，假設從東1到東8碼頭未來都要做商業發展的話，對基隆市是絕對的好事，但是這搞不好也是基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面，因為那是在基隆市的中心，所有的船、高速公路的運輸及所有的產業都可以直接在這個東1到東8碼頭處理，我記得這塊地差不多是3,000到4,000平方公尺，可能沒那麼大，就差不多，而且旁邊就是基隆市政府，基隆市政府和港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發、去好好做事的話，會有很多不同的價值及創意出來。但是尷尬的點就是也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地，十年前我還是一介平民的時候就曾經提議過，這是基隆最後一塊的處女地，可以好好發展產業，既然這塊地目前是在行政院、交通部手上，我就建請行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作，把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面、很重要的一塊。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商，看未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，交通組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息5分鐘，休息之後進行司法及法制組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時35分）","繼續開會（11時40分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}}