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\"我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 596.397, \"end\": 597.018, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 597.018, \"end\": 597.278, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 597.278, \"end\": 597.438, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 597.438, \"end\": 597.638, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 597.638, \"end\": 598.139, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 598.139, \"end\": 598.359, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 598.359, \"end\": 598.619, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 598.619, \"end\": 598.98, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 598.98, \"end\": 599.46, \"score\": 0.568}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 599.46, \"end\": 599.72, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 599.72, \"end\": 599.84, \"score\": 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950.017, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 950.017, \"end\": 950.077, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 950.077, \"end\": 950.719, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 950.719, \"end\": 950.74, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 950.74, \"end\": 950.76, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"給\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:07,884\n院長好邀請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長\n\n2\n00:00:25,930 --> 00:00:38,305\n副長好你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了審計部認證被濫用的7200\n\n3\n00:00:48,241 --> 00:01:01,713\n7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎\n\n4\n00:01:03,455 --> 00:01:27,971\n這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢\n\n5\n00:01:30,123 --> 00:01:33,766\n我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做麥委員這就是重點\n\n6\n00:01:50,455 --> 00:02:14,772\n我說了我從頭到尾我們都是說已經三個月了所以說三個月前跟三個月後我都是說你在就是你做的事情在二診嗎我要講重點啦你要讓我講重點啦好重點重點是我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序\n\n7\n00:02:16,385 --> 00:02:42,604\n審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞\n\n8\n00:02:46,329 --> 00:02:51,117\n是這樣子嗎?麥委員,審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列\n\n9\n00:02:52,458 --> 00:03:14,883\n修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢所以說以後一件事情我們希望你真的是要講重點不要再去問問題的時候再講省紀部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面\n\n10\n00:03:15,783 --> 00:03:21,488\n這些錢都花掉了你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些我覺得你要換個位置要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求\n\n11\n00:03:40,343 --> 00:04:07,851\n你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話我們的你的頭血不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫二座門的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的你的成績\n\n12\n00:04:08,971 --> 00:04:30,822\n我們才看到你的到處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救援基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你\n\n13\n00:04:32,503 --> 00:04:36,808\n如果司法已經確認勞動部這個是亂花錢你要如何去追究你說已經改革上路了但是我請問你的改革是什麼到底是改什麼革\n\n14\n00:04:52,898 --> 00:05:11,677\n那你要不要讓我說明好一分鐘好第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序\n\n15\n00:05:12,358 --> 00:05:28,943\n第二個你剛跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我也要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了\n\n16\n00:05:31,179 --> 00:05:42,387\n現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去罪懥吧不要說就一直在說審計部我希望我們這邊不要再去\n\n17\n00:05:51,913 --> 00:06:12,323\n沒錯但是你問題你的改革我們沒有看到已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦很厲害喔所以我們是一樣你怎麼去追究真正我們要的你要的你是真的你說的你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款我們要的具體的好不好如果你說有了你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是要\n\n18\n00:06:17,666 --> 00:06:22,332\n看到你的你不追回你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革你的改革話又很大聲但是呢實際這是在報復讓人民誰進發\n\n19\n00:06:36,628 --> 00:07:00,002\n現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不准規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情\n\n20\n00:07:00,922 --> 00:07:18,130\n這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你那些坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你欺騙別人啦我以為你說說得最難傳播但是要沒辦法\n\n21\n00:07:27,955 --> 00:07:48,785\n我們要的是實質所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說省支部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的妳在質詢我妳叫我不要跟妳解釋\n\n22\n00:07:49,445 --> 00:08:17,230\n你不用跟我解釋你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間你要把時間\n\n23\n00:08:17,890 --> 00:08:20,393\n我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了\n\n24\n00:08:35,148 --> 00:08:55,723\n他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好近期我們喬生在台灣流血的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口的替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉\n\n25\n00:08:57,125 --> 00:09:04,535\n現在呢卻已經我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上卻變成就是補充我們臺灣勞動力的短缺的救急稻草\n\n26\n00:09:12,385 --> 00:09:21,972\n所以當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候我們產生的實習與工作邊緣模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生與工作的界邊\n\n27\n00:09:41,226 --> 00:09:52,404\n界限的範疇內回答一下關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會\n\n28\n00:09:56,397 --> 00:10:03,564\n我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是\n\n29\n00:10:21,241 --> 00:10:37,559\n默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益\n\n30\n00:10:42,721 --> 00:11:00,195\n因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分\n\n31\n00:11:01,343 --> 00:11:13,466\n我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障\n\n32\n00:11:20,848 --> 00:11:38,144\n有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關你這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的\n\n33\n00:11:39,022 --> 00:11:55,193\n在勞動基準中基準法中他使用技術生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞勞這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管\n\n34\n00:11:56,333 --> 00:12:01,836\n僑生是他來讀書的管這工作是你管的很簡單的事情你就回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例還有他的實習的時數產學合一他們已經簽了但是實習的時數還有實習的品質或者真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工\n\n35\n00:12:20,387 --> 00:12:25,430\n我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要真正的讀書還是來做工作我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的這個不知道你懂不懂\n\n36\n00:12:49,882 --> 00:13:06,196\n這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的\n\n37\n00:13:06,716 --> 00:13:16,050\n所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣\n\n38\n00:13:21,818 --> 00:13:38,972\n但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬\n\n39\n00:13:42,214 --> 00:14:03,222\n讓這個喬生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊社企啊文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個喬生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼\n\n40\n00:14:14,612 --> 00:14:27,326\n如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆\n\n41\n00:14:28,607 --> 00:14:53,022\n那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問東流一些喔我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作\n\n42\n00:14:53,522 --> 00:14:58,626\n但是在這兩年什麼都不能做,他在找工作很辛苦,什麼都不能做,是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的,所以說考慮就是特定類別,跟特殊的知道嗎,不是說什麼都可以做,\n\n43\n00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:42,981\n所以呢但我說的就是關於相關的工作許可的放寬我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦你真的跳沒有啦所以呢你也不知道啦所以說這是我們現在要跟你我們希望你要去瞭解我們喬森也是老闆這邊的實施人員好\n\n44\n00:15:49,295 --> 00:15:50,760\n謝謝麥議員麥議員所取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後之後再送給\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4560\t7884\t院長好 邀請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長\n25930\t38305\t副長好你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了審計部認證被濫用的7200\n48241\t61713\t7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎\n63455\t87971\t這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢\n90123\t93766\t我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做麥委員這就是重點\n110455\t134772\t我說了 我從頭到尾我們都是說 已經三個月了所以說 三個月前跟三個月後我都是說 你在 就是你做的事情在二診嗎我要講重點啦 你要讓我講重點啦好 重點 重點是 我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序\n136385\t162604\t審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞\n166329\t171117\t是這樣子嗎?麥委員,審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列\n172458\t194883\t修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢所以說以後一件事情我們希望你真的是要講重點不要再去問問題的時候再講省紀部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面\n195783\t201488\t這些錢都花掉了 你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些 我覺得你要換個位置 要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務 從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求\n220343\t247851\t你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話我們的你的頭血不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫二座門的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的你的成績\n248971\t270822\t我們才看到你的到處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救援基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你\n272503\t276808\t如果司法已經確認勞動部這個是亂花錢你要如何去追究你說已經改革上路了但是我請問你的改革是什麼到底是改什麼革\n292898\t311677\t那你要不要讓我說明好 一分鐘好 第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序\n312358\t328943\t第二個你剛跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我也要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了\n331179\t342387\t現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去罪懥吧不要說就一直在說審計部我希望我們這邊不要再去\n351913\t372323\t沒錯 但是你問題 你的改革我們沒有看到 已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦 很厲害喔所以我們是一樣 你怎麼去追究 真正我們要的你要的 你是真的你說的 你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款我們要的具體的 好不好如果你說有了 你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是要\n377666\t382332\t看到你的你不追回 你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革 你的改革 話又很大聲但是呢 實際 這是在報復讓人民誰進發\n396628\t420002\t現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不准規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情\n420922\t438130\t這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你那些坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你欺騙別人啦我以為你說 說得最難傳播但是要沒辦法\n447955\t468785\t我們要的是實質所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說省支部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的妳在質詢我妳叫我不要跟妳解釋\n469445\t497230\t你不用跟我解釋 你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間 你要把時間\n497890\t500393\t我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了\n515148\t535723\t他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好 近期我們喬生在台灣流血的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口的替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉\n537125\t544535\t現在呢卻已經我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上卻變成就是補充我們臺灣勞動力的短缺的救急稻草\n552385\t561972\t所以當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候我們產生的實習與工作邊緣模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生與工作的界邊\n581226\t592404\t界限的範疇內回答一下關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會\n596397\t603564\t我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是\n621241\t637559\t默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益\n642721\t660195\t因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分\n661343\t673466\t我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障\n680848\t698144\t有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關你這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的\n699022\t715193\t在勞動基準中基準法中他使用技術生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞勞這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管\n716333\t721836\t僑生是他來讀書的管 這工作是你管的很簡單的事情 你就回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例 還有他的實習的時數產學合一 他們已經簽了 但是實習的時數還有實習的品質 或者真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工\n740387\t745430\t我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要真正的讀書還是來做工作我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的這個不知道你懂不懂\n769882\t786196\t這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的\n786716\t796050\t所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣\n801818\t818972\t但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬\n822214\t843222\t讓這個喬生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊 社企啊 文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個喬生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼\n854612\t867326\t如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆\n868607\t893022\t那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問東流一些喔我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作\n893522\t898626\t但是在這兩年什麼都不能做,他在找工作很辛苦,什麼都不能做,是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的,所以說考慮就是特定類別,跟特殊的知道嗎,不是說什麼都可以做,\n915620\t942981\t所以呢 但我說的就是關於相關的工作許可的放寬我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦 你真的跳沒有啦所以呢 你也不知道啦所以說 這是我們現在要跟你我們希望你要去瞭解我們喬森也是老闆這邊的實施人員好\n949295\t950760\t謝謝麥議員 麥議員所取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後之後再送給\n","txt":"院長好 邀請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長\n副長好你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了審計部認證被濫用的7200\n7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎\n這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢\n我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做麥委員這就是重點\n我說了 我從頭到尾我們都是說 已經三個月了所以說 三個月前跟三個月後我都是說 你在 就是你做的事情在二診嗎我要講重點啦 你要讓我講重點啦好 重點 重點是 我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序\n審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞\n是這樣子嗎?麥委員,審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列\n修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢所以說以後一件事情我們希望你真的是要講重點不要再去問問題的時候再講省紀部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面\n這些錢都花掉了 你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些 我覺得你要換個位置 要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務 從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求\n你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話我們的你的頭血不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫二座門的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的你的成績\n我們才看到你的到處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救援基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你\n如果司法已經確認勞動部這個是亂花錢你要如何去追究你說已經改革上路了但是我請問你的改革是什麼到底是改什麼革\n那你要不要讓我說明好 一分鐘好 第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序\n第二個你剛跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我也要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了\n現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去罪懥吧不要說就一直在說審計部我希望我們這邊不要再去\n沒錯 但是你問題 你的改革我們沒有看到 已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦 很厲害喔所以我們是一樣 你怎麼去追究 真正我們要的你要的 你是真的你說的 你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款我們要的具體的 好不好如果你說有了 你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是要\n看到你的你不追回 你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革 你的改革 話又很大聲但是呢 實際 這是在報復讓人民誰進發\n現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不准規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情\n這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你那些坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你欺騙別人啦我以為你說 說得最難傳播但是要沒辦法\n我們要的是實質所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說省支部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的妳在質詢我妳叫我不要跟妳解釋\n你不用跟我解釋 你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間 你要把時間\n我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了\n他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好 近期我們喬生在台灣流血的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口的替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉\n現在呢卻已經我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上卻變成就是補充我們臺灣勞動力的短缺的救急稻草\n所以當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候我們產生的實習與工作邊緣模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生與工作的界邊\n界限的範疇內回答一下關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會\n我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是\n默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益\n因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分\n我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障\n有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關你這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的\n在勞動基準中基準法中他使用技術生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞勞這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管\n僑生是他來讀書的管 這工作是你管的很簡單的事情 你就回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例 還有他的實習的時數產學合一 他們已經簽了 但是實習的時數還有實習的品質 或者真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工\n我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要真正的讀書還是來做工作我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的這個不知道你懂不懂\n這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的\n所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣\n但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬\n讓這個喬生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊 社企啊 文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個喬生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼\n如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆\n那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問東流一些喔我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作\n但是在這兩年什麼都不能做,他在找工作很辛苦,什麼都不能做,是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的,所以說考慮就是特定類別,跟特殊的知道嗎,不是說什麼都可以做,\n所以呢 但我說的就是關於相關的工作許可的放寬我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦 你真的跳沒有啦所以呢 你也不知道啦所以說 這是我們現在要跟你我們希望你要去瞭解我們喬森也是老闆這邊的實施人員好\n謝謝麥議員 麥議員所取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後之後再送給\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.560 --> 00:07.884\n院長好邀請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長\n\n00:25.930 --> 00:38.305\n副長好你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了審計部認證被濫用的7200\n\n00:48.241 --> 01:01.713\n7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎\n\n01:03.455 --> 01:27.971\n這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢\n\n01:30.123 --> 01:33.766\n我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做麥委員這就是重點\n\n01:50.455 --> 02:14.772\n我說了我從頭到尾我們都是說已經三個月了所以說三個月前跟三個月後我都是說你在就是你做的事情在二診嗎我要講重點啦你要讓我講重點啦好重點重點是我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序\n\n02:16.385 --> 02:42.604\n審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞\n\n02:46.329 --> 02:51.117\n是這樣子嗎?麥委員,審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列\n\n02:52.458 --> 03:14.883\n修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢所以說以後一件事情我們希望你真的是要講重點不要再去問問題的時候再講省紀部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面\n\n03:15.783 --> 03:21.488\n這些錢都花掉了你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些我覺得你要換個位置要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求\n\n03:40.343 --> 04:07.851\n你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話我們的你的頭血不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫二座門的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的你的成績\n\n04:08.971 --> 04:30.822\n我們才看到你的到處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救援基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你\n\n04:32.503 --> 04:36.808\n如果司法已經確認勞動部這個是亂花錢你要如何去追究你說已經改革上路了但是我請問你的改革是什麼到底是改什麼革\n\n04:52.898 --> 05:11.677\n那你要不要讓我說明好一分鐘好第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序\n\n05:12.358 --> 05:28.943\n第二個你剛跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我也要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了\n\n05:31.179 --> 05:42.387\n現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去罪懥吧不要說就一直在說審計部我希望我們這邊不要再去\n\n05:51.913 --> 06:12.323\n沒錯但是你問題你的改革我們沒有看到已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦很厲害喔所以我們是一樣你怎麼去追究真正我們要的你要的你是真的你說的你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款我們要的具體的好不好如果你說有了你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是要\n\n06:17.666 --> 06:22.332\n看到你的你不追回你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革你的改革話又很大聲但是呢實際這是在報復讓人民誰進發\n\n06:36.628 --> 07:00.002\n現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不准規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情\n\n07:00.922 --> 07:18.130\n這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你那些坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你欺騙別人啦我以為你說說得最難傳播但是要沒辦法\n\n07:27.955 --> 07:48.785\n我們要的是實質所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說省支部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的妳在質詢我妳叫我不要跟妳解釋\n\n07:49.445 --> 08:17.230\n你不用跟我解釋你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間你要把時間\n\n08:17.890 --> 08:20.393\n我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了\n\n08:35.148 --> 08:55.723\n他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好近期我們喬生在台灣流血的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口的替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉\n\n08:57.125 --> 09:04.535\n現在呢卻已經我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上卻變成就是補充我們臺灣勞動力的短缺的救急稻草\n\n09:12.385 --> 09:21.972\n所以當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候我們產生的實習與工作邊緣模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生與工作的界邊\n\n09:41.226 --> 09:52.404\n界限的範疇內回答一下關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會\n\n09:56.397 --> 10:03.564\n我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是\n\n10:21.241 --> 10:37.559\n默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益\n\n10:42.721 --> 11:00.195\n因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分\n\n11:01.343 --> 11:13.466\n我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障\n\n11:20.848 --> 11:38.144\n有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關你這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的\n\n11:39.022 --> 11:55.193\n在勞動基準中基準法中他使用技術生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞勞這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管\n\n11:56.333 --> 12:01.836\n僑生是他來讀書的管這工作是你管的很簡單的事情你就回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例還有他的實習的時數產學合一他們已經簽了但是實習的時數還有實習的品質或者真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工\n\n12:20.387 --> 12:25.430\n我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要真正的讀書還是來做工作我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的這個不知道你懂不懂\n\n12:49.882 --> 13:06.196\n這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的\n\n13:06.716 --> 13:16.050\n所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣\n\n13:21.818 --> 13:38.972\n但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬\n\n13:42.214 --> 14:03.222\n讓這個喬生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊社企啊文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個喬生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼\n\n14:14.612 --> 14:27.326\n如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆\n\n14:28.607 --> 14:53.022\n那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問東流一些喔我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作\n\n14:53.522 --> 14:58.626\n但是在這兩年什麼都不能做,他在找工作很辛苦,什麼都不能做,是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的,所以說考慮就是特定類別,跟特殊的知道嗎,不是說什麼都可以做,\n\n15:15.620 --> 15:42.981\n所以呢但我說的就是關於相關的工作許可的放寬我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦你真的跳沒有啦所以呢你也不知道啦所以說這是我們現在要跟你我們希望你要去瞭解我們喬森也是老闆這邊的實施人員好\n\n15:49.295 --> 15:50.760\n謝謝麥議員麥議員所取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後之後再送給\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.56,"end":7.884,"text":"院長好 邀請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長"},{"start":25.93,"end":38.305,"text":"副長好你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了審計部認證被濫用的7200"},{"start":48.241,"end":61.713,"text":"7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎"},{"start":63.455,"end":87.971,"text":"這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢"},{"start":90.123,"end":93.766,"text":"我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做麥委員這就是重點"},{"start":110.455,"end":134.772,"text":"我說了 我從頭到尾我們都是說 已經三個月了所以說 三個月前跟三個月後我都是說 你在 就是你做的事情在二診嗎我要講重點啦 你要讓我講重點啦好 重點 重點是 我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序"},{"start":136.385,"end":162.604,"text":"審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞"},{"start":166.329,"end":171.117,"text":"是這樣子嗎?麥委員,審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列"},{"start":172.458,"end":194.883,"text":"修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢所以說以後一件事情我們希望你真的是要講重點不要再去問問題的時候再講省紀部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面"},{"start":195.783,"end":201.488,"text":"這些錢都花掉了 你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些 我覺得你要換個位置 要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務 從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求"},{"start":220.343,"end":247.851,"text":"你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話我們的你的頭血不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫二座門的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的你的成績"},{"start":248.971,"end":270.822,"text":"我們才看到你的到處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救援基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你"},{"start":272.503,"end":276.808,"text":"如果司法已經確認勞動部這個是亂花錢你要如何去追究你說已經改革上路了但是我請問你的改革是什麼到底是改什麼革"},{"start":292.898,"end":311.677,"text":"那你要不要讓我說明好 一分鐘好 第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序"},{"start":312.358,"end":328.943,"text":"第二個你剛跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我也要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了"},{"start":331.179,"end":342.387,"text":"現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去罪懥吧不要說就一直在說審計部我希望我們這邊不要再去"},{"start":351.913,"end":372.323,"text":"沒錯 但是你問題 你的改革我們沒有看到 已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦 很厲害喔所以我們是一樣 你怎麼去追究 真正我們要的你要的 你是真的你說的 你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款我們要的具體的 好不好如果你說有了 你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是要"},{"start":377.666,"end":382.332,"text":"看到你的你不追回 你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革 你的改革 話又很大聲但是呢 實際 這是在報復讓人民誰進發"},{"start":396.628,"end":420.002,"text":"現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不准規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情"},{"start":420.922,"end":438.13,"text":"這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你那些坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你欺騙別人啦我以為你說 說得最難傳播但是要沒辦法"},{"start":447.955,"end":468.785,"text":"我們要的是實質所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說省支部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的妳在質詢我妳叫我不要跟妳解釋"},{"start":469.445,"end":497.23,"text":"你不用跟我解釋 你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間 你要把時間"},{"start":497.89,"end":500.393,"text":"我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了"},{"start":515.148,"end":535.723,"text":"他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好 近期我們喬生在台灣流血的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口的替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉"},{"start":537.125,"end":544.535,"text":"現在呢卻已經我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上卻變成就是補充我們臺灣勞動力的短缺的救急稻草"},{"start":552.385,"end":561.972,"text":"所以當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候我們產生的實習與工作邊緣模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生與工作的界邊"},{"start":581.226,"end":592.404,"text":"界限的範疇內回答一下關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會"},{"start":596.397,"end":603.564,"text":"我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是"},{"start":621.241,"end":637.559,"text":"默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益"},{"start":642.721,"end":660.195,"text":"因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分"},{"start":661.343,"end":673.466,"text":"我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障"},{"start":680.848,"end":698.144,"text":"有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關你這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的"},{"start":699.022,"end":715.193,"text":"在勞動基準中基準法中他使用技術生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞勞這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管"},{"start":716.333,"end":721.836,"text":"僑生是他來讀書的管 這工作是你管的很簡單的事情 你就回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例 還有他的實習的時數產學合一 他們已經簽了 但是實習的時數還有實習的品質 或者真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工"},{"start":740.387,"end":745.43,"text":"我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要真正的讀書還是來做工作我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的這個不知道你懂不懂"},{"start":769.882,"end":786.196,"text":"這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的"},{"start":786.716,"end":796.05,"text":"所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣"},{"start":801.818,"end":818.972,"text":"但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬"},{"start":822.214,"end":843.222,"text":"讓這個喬生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊 社企啊 文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個喬生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼"},{"start":854.612,"end":867.326,"text":"如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆"},{"start":868.607,"end":893.022,"text":"那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問東流一些喔我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作"},{"start":893.522,"end":898.626,"text":"但是在這兩年什麼都不能做,他在找工作很辛苦,什麼都不能做,是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的,所以說考慮就是特定類別,跟特殊的知道嗎,不是說什麼都可以做,"},{"start":915.62,"end":942.981,"text":"所以呢 但我說的就是關於相關的工作許可的放寬我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦 你真的跳沒有啦所以呢 你也不知道啦所以說 這是我們現在要跟你我們希望你要去瞭解我們喬森也是老闆這邊的實施人員好"},{"start":949.295,"end":950.76,"text":"謝謝麥議員 麥議員所取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後之後再送給"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（16時7分）院長好。有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請勞動部長備詢。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。你有在立法院詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序，現在已經三個月過去了，審計部認證被濫用的7,224萬，你說會追回，現在卻變成要向行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞，請教部長，你還認得自己嗎？這就是你要追回的方法嗎？你現在就不演了，直接就讓全民買單嗎？你連在立院質詢答應的都可以翻臉不認帳，你這不是在惡整勞工嗎？在欺騙企業嗎？你現在又用什麼「奧步」來讓民眾相信你會追責呢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟麥委員說明，第一個，這不是「奧步」，這也沒有欺騙，我講得很清楚，我從頭到尾都是說我會按審計部的要求啟動追回的程序，審計部……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你講重點，你怎麼樣去做？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，這就是重點！我說了，從頭到尾我們都是說會按……"],["麥委員玉珍：已經三個月了，從你答應到現在已經三個月了……"],["洪部長申翰：三個月前跟三個月後，我都是說……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你做的事情就是在惡整嗎？就是在欺騙企業嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我要講重點，你要讓我講重點啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：好，重點，30秒。"],["洪部長申翰：重點是一直以來，我都是說會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序，審計部在後來的認定報告裡面很清楚的跟我們說這是修正減列，是修正減列，所以後來我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求，說明我們會啟動後續相關的程序。"],["麥委員玉珍：後續相關的程序是要用公務預算來補這個洞，是這樣子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，審計部最後在審計報告裡面是認定這是修正減列，修正減列的意思，就是它認為這是核屬公務預算的範圍……"],["麥委員玉珍：修正減列的意思，不是拿我們人民的血汗錢……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你沒有了解修正減列的意思。"],["麥委員玉珍：某些事情我們希望你真的要講重點，不要每個人問你，你就說……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我現在講的就是重點，審計部是認定修正減列，也就是在它給我們的報告裡面，包括這一段時間的過程，很清楚的說這是可以核屬公務預算的支用範圍。"],["麥委員玉珍：這些錢都花掉了，你說審計部都認定了，所以有一些……我覺得你換了位置要換個腦袋，但問題不在職務……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求……"],["麥委員玉珍：而是在思維，你現在的思維，要去刮別人鬍子之前，先把你的鬍子刮乾淨，你的頭銜不代表你的格局，你有位置，但不代表你的品格高尚，你到處宣傳說我們藍白惡整勞工，你才是真正惡整勞工，三個月了，我們沒有看到你的成績……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我要再說明一次……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們只有看到你到處說沒錢辦訓，也沒錢管編勞檢人力，結果呢？你們拿就安基金去養網軍、去辦演唱會！更離譜的是，你們現在還打算不追回，挖空心思想要拿政府的錢來補洞，你真的很會算、很厲害！如果司法確認勞動部這個是亂花錢，你要如何追究？你說改革已經上路了，但是請問你的改革是什麼？到底是改什麼革？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你要不要讓我說明？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，1分鐘。"],["洪部長申翰：好，第一個，勞動部是一個行政機關，我們必須按照審計的要求進行後續相關程序，這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣主張，到目前為止，我們也都是按照審計的要求進行後續程序。第二個，你剛剛問我相關的改革，相關的改革已經開始啟動了，勞動部在1月的時候，就已經提出就安基金三個面向和六個策略的改革計畫，目前改革是現在進行式。就追回的作法，我也要跟委員說明，委員你剛剛說錯了，現在是審計部已經下了相關認定，但是司法的部分，也就是檢調的部分，確實還在偵辦中……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我才問你要如何去追究嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：對於個人責任的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：不要一直說審計部……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會配合……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你們這邊不要再……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這七千多萬就是審計部報告出來的啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，問題是你的改革我們沒有看到，已經三個月了，都只是聽你在說而已，很厲害……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，勞動部的就安基金改革方案……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你要真正去追究我們要的……"],["洪部長申翰：現在已經上路了。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是你現在到底要怎麼追究、怎麼追款，我們要的是具體作為，好不好？如果你現在有方法，就是準備要怎麼幫我們……"],["洪部長申翰：現在檢調正在偵辦，我們會配合檢調來做個人責任的追究。"],["麥委員玉珍：而不是我們看到的，你不追回，還準備用人民的血汗錢幫你還債，這個就是你的改革嗎？你的改革喊得很大聲，但是實際是發布……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我們是具體的提出就安基金的改革方案。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是讓人民「捶心肝」，現在我們希望你要提出最具體的作法：立即追回，不准歸墊，還有嚴懲到底。部長能做到嗎？就是要兌現你對人民的承諾，你現在能做到嗎？不用再去說審計部，你能不能做到把這筆錢追回來？這才是你要承諾的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告，我們從頭到尾都按照審計部所列出來的事情……"],["麥委員玉珍：不是要做報告，而是你要如何追回，不是用我們人民的血汗錢來補你的洞，不是這樣子的。我們來是希望能解決問題，不是來讓你起乩、擲筊的。就算你講到口沫橫飛，但是要做卻什麼辦法都沒有，我們要的是實質，對於這個部分，我們希望你能實質承諾為人民追回這個錢，而不是去說審計部或說要什麼錢，這個部分你要真正地對人民承諾，不用跟我解釋。第二個，我要請問你的……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你在質詢我，卻又要我不要跟你解釋？"],["麥委員玉珍：你不用跟我解釋，你要給人民交代。"],["洪部長申翰：你質詢我，然後要我不要跟你解釋。"],["麥委員玉珍：這一題你要給人民交代的是追回，而不是再去說那一些了。"],["洪部長申翰：對於個人責任的部分，我們會配合檢調、配合司法做個人責任的追究，甚至是追討。"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你要去做真實的，我不用跟你解釋，我時間有限，你已經在浪費我的時間了，你沒有回答真正的問題，你沒有辦法承諾，你直接承諾就好了，回答那麼多幹嘛？你浪費我的時間，你要把時間賠給我。"],["洪部長申翰：你質詢我，然後叫我不要回答，不要跟你解釋？"],["麥委員玉珍：現在我不是要問那個，而是要問第二題了，我要你承諾的是追回，而不是講其他的，我現在要……"],["洪部長申翰：我們都按照審計部的相關要求辦理。"],["麥委員玉珍：主席，他現在在浪費我的時間，我要問第二題了，他沒有給我承諾，所以他浪費我的時間，可以停止我的時間嗎？不然，他要賠我的時間。","近期我們僑生在臺灣留學的制度，要怎麼包裝成為彌補我們勞動力缺口的替代品？就像不開放移工的旅宿業，現在卻引進僑生還有東南亞的外籍實習生，以實習的名義，實際上卻變成是在補充我們臺灣勞動力短缺的救急稻草。當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候，就產生了處於實習與工作邊緣的模糊情況。勞動部有無跟僑委會共同針對這些實習生進行場域的監督、查訪？還有有沒有明確實習與工作的界線和範疇？回答一下。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，關於僑生的部分，主管機關是教育跟僑委會。"],["麥委員玉珍：我問你的不是你跟他怎麼樣，而是問你你們的監督權。現在是實習生變成廉價勞工，所以我要問你的是，在這樣實習的時候，雖然我們沒有開放移工，但是在服務業裡，勞動部是否默認企業以僑生實習的方式變相僱用他們？要如何確保這些實習生在工作時符合勞動基準法中對於技術生的規範與權益？我是在問他們工作的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，因為僑生是學生的身分，以學生的身分去實習，實習部分的主管機關確實是教育部，並由僑委會協助。如果僑生畢業以後要留臺工作，這才是勞動部主管的部分，所以……"],["麥委員玉珍：我問東你講西，你不是專業的嗎？我問的是現在的實習生，就是他們現在在這邊做實習生的時候，業者違法聘用實習生，所以他申請的管道，或者他的保障對他們有沒有幫助？他來讀書是一回事，但是他去實習在工作的時候卻是你在管轄的，關於這個你都不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，實習的部分還是教育部主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：在勞動基準法中，他適用技術生的範圍與權利，他還是在勞保這邊的。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你還是搞錯主管機關了。"],["麥委員玉珍：你不要再去講那個，那個不是。讀書是歸教育部管，僑生來讀書是它要管，但工作是你管的，這是很簡單的事情，你回答得霧煞煞。所以我們希望這個比例還有他實習時數的問題要處理。產學合一，他們已經簽了，但是實習時數還有實習品質的問題要處理。他真的是在實習嗎？還是變成打工？我們要孩子來讀書是要他認真來讀書，還是要他來做工作的？我們希望他在工作是實習，但是會不會變成是廉價勞工？我們希望爭取人才留在臺灣，希望僑生在臺灣有保障，所以才要問你，但是你一問三不知。","再來，我再問你，這個我不知道你懂不懂……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我知道，我沒有一問三不知，我還是要再說明一次……"],["麥委員玉珍：我在問你，沒有讓你說明……"],["洪部長申翰：僑生的實習這個部分不是勞動部主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是勞動部主管？是你在主管的，因為他一定要有工作時數的時候，就是你在管的，所以他有打工的時候是你在管的，我才問你有沒有管到，你就完全沒有在管，所以你不知道。","第二個我在問你的是我們強調應該爭取人才留在臺灣，但是目前僑生畢業後留在臺灣找工作一年，可以延長到兩年，這個找工作的時間，他們完全不能做任何工作，所以對他們是不是可以放寬？讓僑生在畢業後找工作這兩年是不是可以接案，就是比較特定的類別，比如自媒體、設計、文創，有沒有考慮放寬？讓僑生在找工作的時間可以接這樣子的案，不能讓他找工作這兩年沒辦法工作，他餓肚子，就更沒辦法工作。你聽得懂嗎？還是說臺語你比較聽得懂？"],["洪部長申翰：跟麥委員報告，如果僑生已經畢業，他找工作的階段，我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大僑生可以留在臺灣工作的可能性，包括讓他相關的工作許可能夠放得更寬鬆，這個部分相關的政策確實在研議中，但是我這邊指的是僑生已經畢業，他進入到找工作的這個階段，實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡。"],["麥委員玉珍：我問東你就回西，我知道你的放寬是說企業雇主的資本額，但我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間，規定上，他不能去工作，但是在這兩年他要找工作很辛苦，什麼都不能做，所以是不是放寬，讓他們可以做一些接單的或者是自媒體的、設計的、文創的，考慮特定類別的、比較特殊的，知道嗎？不是什麼都可以做，所以……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員說的就是關於相關工作許可的放寬……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你講的是畢業後的放寬，跟他這兩年的不一樣……"],["洪部長申翰：我講的是畢業後。"],["麥委員玉珍：不一樣，你真的聽不懂，所以你也不知道。我們現在要跟你講，我們希望你要去了解，僑生也是勞工實習的一環，但是問你什麼，你都不知道，不知道的話，你要管什麼？這個也是最重要的，希望你要提出你怎麼樣去管理他們，書面給我，好嗎？"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","麥玉珍委員索取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後再送給麥委員辦公室。謝謝勞動部長備詢，謝謝。","再接下來，請廖偉翔委員質詢，之後我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}}