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00:00:08,259\n好謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部長調查局局長以及署長警政署署長\n\n2\n00:00:19,542 --> 00:00:34,693\n三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我現在還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力\n\n3\n00:00:37,575 --> 00:01:01,404\n因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的啦那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練\n\n4\n00:01:02,765 --> 00:01:20,045\n教育訓練呢都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦這些人是從哪裡來我想大家都猜得到\n\n5\n00:01:20,746 --> 00:01:40,152\n所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我這跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下\n\n6\n00:01:41,567 --> 00:02:03,487\n那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙那今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題\n\n7\n00:02:04,548 --> 00:02:30,442\n是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署的問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關檢察官\n\n8\n00:02:31,863 --> 00:02:59,638\n警察非常的辛苦而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低這是不對而政人總統其實不去體恤警察啦一直說警察要市民如親生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴我比較希望說當然開那個是還好但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長依照社會秩序文物法第63條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想影響公共安寧啊這個\n\n9\n00:03:00,818 --> 00:03:25,997\n這個依照實務的見解就是應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼等等對不對對好那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那\n\n10\n00:03:26,557 --> 00:03:49,416\n還有人說現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體政論節目或YouTuber他們常常說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的思想尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是\n\n11\n00:03:52,658 --> 00:03:56,264\n違反了什麼法規另外聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎請問署長\n\n12\n00:03:58,285 --> 00:04:25,469\n法務委員我想這個是一個個案那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌\n\n13\n00:04:26,189 --> 00:04:46,987\n然後在上面寫了一句而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦YouTube沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得\n\n14\n00:04:47,788 --> 00:05:05,768\n因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事很多人在講這些事情那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地但是不能談花嗎\n\n15\n00:05:07,690 --> 00:05:26,902\n甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽\n\n16\n00:05:28,923 --> 00:05:41,790\n那如果這個要辦的話那前陣子那個劉四芳談到的租屋補貼張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了\n\n17\n00:05:44,651 --> 00:06:05,649\n後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們\n\n18\n00:06:06,149 --> 00:06:22,934\n不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那個局長局長不好意思局長我想跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了\n\n19\n00:06:24,674 --> 00:06:46,033\n並同待回這件事啦因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過公文其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文\n\n20\n00:06:46,593 --> 00:07:09,446\n因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個聯署書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品\n\n21\n00:07:10,306 --> 00:07:32,638\n這個可以扣押但是呢對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人\n\n22\n00:07:33,118 --> 00:07:56,214\n所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官我以為你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清所以甲官把他扣押回來這個是我事後跟你說你說這個東西不該出現在那裡我必須跟你講的第一個他該不該出現在那裡沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡\n\n23\n00:07:56,954 --> 00:08:14,903\n我的東西我的罰單我有時候請別人幫我代繳他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告我現在講每一句話我都說我在國會來我講每一句話歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯所以\n\n24\n00:08:16,644 --> 00:08:41,608\n局長您說不該出現在那裡所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對我們就推給檢察官所以說檢察官不應該好而且更何況是一個合法的公文他不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索\n\n25\n00:08:42,248 --> 00:08:59,987\n結果他竊盜罪你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下\n\n26\n00:09:01,058 --> 00:09:28,695\n其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則啊而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性\n\n27\n00:09:29,355 --> 00:09:54,561\n如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助\n\n28\n00:09:56,055 --> 00:10:05,050\n名冊贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位\n\n29\n00:10:08,839 --> 00:10:27,011\n這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與\n\n30\n00:10:28,192 --> 00:10:46,657\n罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看\n\n31\n00:10:48,497 --> 00:11:04,814\n這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反產業礦氣法稅捐寄生法我應該是查他的一些\n\n32\n00:11:05,655 --> 00:11:25,527\n一些帳冊船票AB帳進貨單電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛這是我們當警察官的一個基本概念結果呢你扣完這個之外你還要把他的機器一起扣回家原料都要把它扣回家這樣對嗎好就像說珍珠你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走\n\n33\n00:11:27,029 --> 00:11:49,260\n這不對啊所以讓我想到一件事我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我突然想到周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家扣他的犯罪所得\n\n34\n00:11:50,103 --> 00:12:15,699\n就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊\n\n35\n00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:32,335\n他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所得無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回\n\n36\n00:12:34,674 --> 00:12:59,786\n我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正貸執法啦所以他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場\n\n37\n00:13:02,203 --> 00:13:30,982\n檢察院來做一個審查是不是得為證據之誤沒關係喔謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長我想部長跟局長其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調\n\n38\n00:13:32,103 --> 00:13:52,870\n其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好然後我想其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎我要被查辦或者是\n\n39\n00:13:54,441 --> 00:14:22,338\n民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理啊這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的嘛英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了\n\n40\n00:14:23,423 --> 00:14:45,559\n賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大\n\n41\n00:14:47,940 --> 00:15:01,671\n我是希望啦不要變成是整個就是說配合的政府政府這樣做還有就是我也不想跟我以前指導我的老師或者是我以前帶的學級司法官我指導他的\n\n42\n00:15:02,392 --> 00:15:24,117\n在公務上面針鋒相對因為私下我們感情都非常好我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定\n\n43\n00:15:25,754 --> 00:15:48,202\n是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼韋道文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說\n\n44\n00:15:49,822 --> 00:16:07,650\n這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈年署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教請教局長第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個\n\n45\n00:16:10,325 --> 00:16:21,050\n法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考慮要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有\n\n46\n00:16:26,432 --> 00:16:38,402\n有明定了本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的\n\n47\n00:16:42,125 --> 00:17:04,584\n但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛剛講的那個是社辦選罷法那個是社辦選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把\n\n48\n00:17:06,138 --> 00:17:14,126\n這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關\n\n49\n00:17:19,555 --> 00:17:42,338\n來局長你這樣說我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間連署期間你們有用選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告\n\n50\n00:17:44,059 --> 00:18:03,265\n來請問一下沒有案子沒有所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠\n\n51\n00:18:06,966 --> 00:18:22,554\n我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長您講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有犯藍綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效\n\n52\n00:18:31,414 --> 00:18:48,778\n所以啊沒有你不要再講作弊了我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長他祖子是民進黨好那即使沒有這樣我們不講藍綠我們報告局長我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛為什麼局長\n\n53\n00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:20,107\n局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在執行\n\n54\n00:19:25,528 --> 00:19:48,343\n過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講\n\n55\n00:19:48,743 --> 00:20:16,840\n全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法\n\n56\n00:20:18,854 --> 00:20:39,228\n所以然後你下面跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎\n\n57\n00:20:40,589 --> 00:20:57,608\n因為我記得我去年那時候沒有案件啊不是啊你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是今天我有意見的地方對\n\n58\n00:20:59,129 --> 00:21:22,437\n這個都不用查這一次開始毛起來查這一次所有案件全部都是檢察官指揮我跟你講又來沒有人告發我跟你講多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天欸禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係沒關係局長\n\n59\n00:21:26,258 --> 00:21:47,771\n我們需先接受委員的質疑好沒關係局長這樣啦齁您對我不滿我也OK啦不會報告委員絕對不會我私下像我跟部長我跟部長常針鋒相對但我對部長的關懷部長很清楚他就是我的長官公務之外他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是公務之外我對您的尊敬不會少一分謝謝委員謝謝委員\n\n60\n00:21:49,633 --> 00:22:14,913\n唉我覺得齁如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉那我跟我在那邊可以告發啊我們選法法104條你就罷免的部分你有一些不實的資訊那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講藍白亂砍租金普帖後來又說沒有後來又被人家踢爆那洪森漢我剛剛講了嘛\n\n61\n00:22:17,151 --> 00:22:46,327\n因應留職聽薪補貼他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免再添柴火那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛\n\n62\n00:22:47,581 --> 00:23:05,726\n那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認\n\n63\n00:23:07,028 --> 00:23:32,109\n那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1380\t8259\t好 謝謝主席 那我們麻煩法務部長 調查局局長以及署長 警政署署長\n19542\t34693\t三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我現在還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力\n37575\t61404\t因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的啦那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練\n62765\t80045\t教育訓練呢 都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說 他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦 這些人是從哪裡來 我想大家都猜得到\n80746\t100152\t所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我這跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下\n101567\t123487\t那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙那今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題\n124548\t150442\t是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署的問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關檢察官\n151863\t179638\t警察非常的辛苦 而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低 這是不對而政人總統其實不去體恤警察啦一直說警察要市民如親 生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴 我比較希望說當然開那個是還好 但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長 依照社會秩序文物法第63條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想 影響公共安寧啊 這個\n180818\t205997\t這個依照實務的見解就是應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼等等對不對對好那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那\n206557\t229416\t還有人說 現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體 政論節目或YouTuber他們常常說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的思想尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是\n232658\t236264\t違反了什麼法規 另外聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎 請問署長\n238285\t265469\t法務委員我想這個是一個個案那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌\n266189\t286987\t然後在上面寫了一句 而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦YouTube沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句 他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得\n287788\t305768\t因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事很多人在講這些事情那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地但是不能談花嗎\n307690\t326902\t甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽\n328923\t341790\t那如果這個要辦的話 那前陣子那個劉四芳談到的租屋補貼 張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了 根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了\n344651\t365649\t後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們\n366149\t382934\t不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那個局長局長不好意思局長我想跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了\n384674\t406033\t並同待回這件事啦 因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過公文 其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文\n406593\t429446\t因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個聯署書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品\n430306\t452638\t這個可以扣押 但是呢 對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物 這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡 我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人 他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人\n453118\t476214\t所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡 其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官 我以為你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清所以甲官把他扣押回來這個是我事後跟你說 你說這個東西不該出現在那裡我必須跟你講的第一個 他該不該出現在那裡 沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡\n476954\t494903\t我的東西 我的罰單 我有時候請別人幫我代繳 他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家 那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告 我現在講每一句話 我都說我在國會來 我講每一句話 歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯 所以\n496644\t521608\t局長您說不該出現在那裡 所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對 我們就推給檢察官 所以說檢察官不應該好 而且更何況是一個合法的公文 他不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告 這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣 這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索\n522248\t539987\t結果他竊盜罪你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下\n541058\t568695\t其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則啊而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性\n569355\t594561\t如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助\n596055\t605050\t名冊 贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位\n608839\t627011\t這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與\n628192\t646657\t罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官 檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看\n648497\t664814\t這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反產業礦氣法稅捐寄生法我應該是查他的一些\n665655\t685527\t一些帳冊 船票 AB帳 進貨單 電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛 這是我們當警察官的一個基本概念結果呢 你扣完這個之外 你還要把他的機器一起扣回家原料都要把它扣回家 這樣對嗎好 就像說 珍珠 你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走\n687029\t709260\t這不對啊 所以讓我想到一件事 我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我突然想到 周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家 扣他的犯罪所得\n710103\t735699\t就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊\n737076\t752335\t他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所得無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣 宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回\n754674\t779786\t我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正貸執法啦所以他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場\n782203\t810982\t檢察院來做一個審查 是不是得為證據之誤沒關係喔 謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長 我想部長跟局長其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼 那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候 我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人 包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調\n812103\t832870\t其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入 其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好 然後 我想 其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的 我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎 我要被查辦 或者是\n834441\t862338\t民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派 要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到 很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理啊這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的嘛英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了\n863423\t885559\t賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大\n887940\t901671\t我是希望啦 不要變成是整個 就是說配合的政府政府這樣做還有就是我也不想跟我以前指導我的老師或者是我以前帶的學級司法官我指導他的\n902392\t924117\t在公務上面針鋒相對因為私下我們感情都非常好我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些 我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定\n925754\t948202\t是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼韋道文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說\n949822\t967650\t這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈年署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教請教局長第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個\n970325\t981050\t法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考慮要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有\n986432\t998402\t有明定了 本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的\n1002125\t1024584\t但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛剛講的那個是社辦選罷法那個是社辦選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把\n1026138\t1034126\t這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關\n1039555\t1062338\t來 局長你這樣說 我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間 連署期間你們有用選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告\n1064059\t1083265\t來 請問一下沒有案子沒有 所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長 謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠\n1086966\t1102554\t我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長您講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有犯藍綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效\n1111414\t1128778\t所以啊 沒有你不要再講作弊了 我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼 班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學 另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長 他祖子是民進黨好 那即使沒有這樣 我們不講藍綠我們報告局長 我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛 為什麼 局長\n1136840\t1160107\t局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在執行\n1165528\t1188343\t過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是 所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊 就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講\n1188743\t1216840\t全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法\n1218854\t1239228\t所以然後你下面跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎\n1240589\t1257608\t因為我記得我去年 那時候沒有案件啊不是啊 你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是今天我有意見的地方 對\n1259129\t1282437\t這個都不用查 這一次開始毛起來查這一次所有案件全部都是檢察官指揮我跟你講 又來沒有人告發我跟你講 多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講 局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天 欸 禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係沒關係 局長\n1286258\t1307771\t我們需先接受委員的質疑好 沒關係局長 這樣啦齁 您對我不滿我也OK啦不會 報告委員絕對不會我私下像我跟部長 我跟部長常針鋒相對但我對部長的關懷 部長很清楚 他就是我的長官公務之外 他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是 公務之外 我對您的尊敬不會少一分謝謝委員 謝謝委員\n1309633\t1334913\t唉 我覺得齁 如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉 那我跟我在那邊可以告發啊我們選法法104條 你就罷免的部分 你有一些不實的資訊那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下 那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講 藍白亂砍 租金普帖 後來又說沒有後來又被人家踢爆 那洪森漢 我剛剛講了嘛\n1337151\t1366327\t因應留職聽薪補貼 他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是 沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免再添柴火那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛\n1367581\t1385726\t那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認\n1387028\t1412109\t那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那我們麻煩法務部長 調查局局長以及署長 警政署署長\n三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我現在還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力\n因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的啦那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練\n教育訓練呢 都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說 他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦 這些人是從哪裡來 我想大家都猜得到\n所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我這跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下\n那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙那今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題\n是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署的問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關檢察官\n警察非常的辛苦 而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低 這是不對而政人總統其實不去體恤警察啦一直說警察要市民如親 生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴 我比較希望說當然開那個是還好 但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長 依照社會秩序文物法第63條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想 影響公共安寧啊 這個\n這個依照實務的見解就是應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼等等對不對對好那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那\n還有人說 現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體 政論節目或YouTuber他們常常說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的思想尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是\n違反了什麼法規 另外聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎 請問署長\n法務委員我想這個是一個個案那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌\n然後在上面寫了一句 而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦YouTube沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句 他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得\n因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事很多人在講這些事情那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地但是不能談花嗎\n甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽\n那如果這個要辦的話 那前陣子那個劉四芳談到的租屋補貼 張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了 根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了\n後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們\n不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那個局長局長不好意思局長我想跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了\n並同待回這件事啦 因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過公文 其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文\n因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個聯署書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品\n這個可以扣押 但是呢 對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物 這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡 我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人 他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人\n所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡 其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官 我以為你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清所以甲官把他扣押回來這個是我事後跟你說 你說這個東西不該出現在那裡我必須跟你講的第一個 他該不該出現在那裡 沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡\n我的東西 我的罰單 我有時候請別人幫我代繳 他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家 那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告 我現在講每一句話 我都說我在國會來 我講每一句話 歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯 所以\n局長您說不該出現在那裡 所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對 我們就推給檢察官 所以說檢察官不應該好 而且更何況是一個合法的公文 他不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告 這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣 這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索\n結果他竊盜罪你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下\n其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則啊而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性\n如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助\n名冊 贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位\n這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與\n罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官 檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看\n這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反產業礦氣法稅捐寄生法我應該是查他的一些\n一些帳冊 船票 AB帳 進貨單 電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛 這是我們當警察官的一個基本概念結果呢 你扣完這個之外 你還要把他的機器一起扣回家原料都要把它扣回家 這樣對嗎好 就像說 珍珠 你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走\n這不對啊 所以讓我想到一件事 我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我突然想到 周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家 扣他的犯罪所得\n就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊\n他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所得無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣 宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回\n我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正貸執法啦所以他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場\n檢察院來做一個審查 是不是得為證據之誤沒關係喔 謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長 我想部長跟局長其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼 那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候 我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人 包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調\n其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入 其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好 然後 我想 其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的 我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎 我要被查辦 或者是\n民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派 要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到 很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理啊這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的嘛英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了\n賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大\n我是希望啦 不要變成是整個 就是說配合的政府政府這樣做還有就是我也不想跟我以前指導我的老師或者是我以前帶的學級司法官我指導他的\n在公務上面針鋒相對因為私下我們感情都非常好我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些 我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定\n是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼韋道文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說\n這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈年署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教請教局長第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個\n法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考慮要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有\n有明定了 本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的\n但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛剛講的那個是社辦選罷法那個是社辦選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把\n這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關\n來 局長你這樣說 我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間 連署期間你們有用選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告\n來 請問一下沒有案子沒有 所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長 謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠\n我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長您講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有犯藍綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效\n所以啊 沒有你不要再講作弊了 我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼 班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學 另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長 他祖子是民進黨好 那即使沒有這樣 我們不講藍綠我們報告局長 我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛 為什麼 局長\n局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在執行\n過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是 所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊 就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講\n全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法\n所以然後你下面跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎\n因為我記得我去年 那時候沒有案件啊不是啊 你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是今天我有意見的地方 對\n這個都不用查 這一次開始毛起來查這一次所有案件全部都是檢察官指揮我跟你講 又來沒有人告發我跟你講 多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講 局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天 欸 禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係沒關係 局長\n我們需先接受委員的質疑好 沒關係局長 這樣啦齁 您對我不滿我也OK啦不會 報告委員絕對不會我私下像我跟部長 我跟部長常針鋒相對但我對部長的關懷 部長很清楚 他就是我的長官公務之外 他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是 公務之外 我對您的尊敬不會少一分謝謝委員 謝謝委員\n唉 我覺得齁 如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉 那我跟我在那邊可以告發啊我們選法法104條 你就罷免的部分 你有一些不實的資訊那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下 那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講 藍白亂砍 租金普帖 後來又說沒有後來又被人家踢爆 那洪森漢 我剛剛講了嘛\n因應留職聽薪補貼 他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是 沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免再添柴火那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛\n那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認\n那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.380 --> 00:08.259\n好謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部長調查局局長以及署長警政署署長\n\n00:19.542 --> 00:34.693\n三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我現在還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力\n\n00:37.575 --> 01:01.404\n因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的啦那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練\n\n01:02.765 --> 01:20.045\n教育訓練呢都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦這些人是從哪裡來我想大家都猜得到\n\n01:20.746 --> 01:40.152\n所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我這跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下\n\n01:41.567 --> 02:03.487\n那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙那今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題\n\n02:04.548 --> 02:30.442\n是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署的問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關檢察官\n\n02:31.863 --> 02:59.638\n警察非常的辛苦而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低這是不對而政人總統其實不去體恤警察啦一直說警察要市民如親生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴我比較希望說當然開那個是還好但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長依照社會秩序文物法第63條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想影響公共安寧啊這個\n\n03:00.818 --> 03:25.997\n這個依照實務的見解就是應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼等等對不對對好那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那\n\n03:26.557 --> 03:49.416\n還有人說現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體政論節目或YouTuber他們常常說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的思想尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是\n\n03:52.658 --> 03:56.264\n違反了什麼法規另外聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎請問署長\n\n03:58.285 --> 04:25.469\n法務委員我想這個是一個個案那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌\n\n04:26.189 --> 04:46.987\n然後在上面寫了一句而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦YouTube沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得\n\n04:47.788 --> 05:05.768\n因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事很多人在講這些事情那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地但是不能談花嗎\n\n05:07.690 --> 05:26.902\n甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽\n\n05:28.923 --> 05:41.790\n那如果這個要辦的話那前陣子那個劉四芳談到的租屋補貼張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了\n\n05:44.651 --> 06:05.649\n後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們\n\n06:06.149 --> 06:22.934\n不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那個局長局長不好意思局長我想跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了\n\n06:24.674 --> 06:46.033\n並同待回這件事啦因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過公文其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文\n\n06:46.593 --> 07:09.446\n因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個聯署書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品\n\n07:10.306 --> 07:32.638\n這個可以扣押但是呢對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人\n\n07:33.118 --> 07:56.214\n所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官我以為你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清所以甲官把他扣押回來這個是我事後跟你說你說這個東西不該出現在那裡我必須跟你講的第一個他該不該出現在那裡沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡\n\n07:56.954 --> 08:14.903\n我的東西我的罰單我有時候請別人幫我代繳他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告我現在講每一句話我都說我在國會來我講每一句話歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯所以\n\n08:16.644 --> 08:41.608\n局長您說不該出現在那裡所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對我們就推給檢察官所以說檢察官不應該好而且更何況是一個合法的公文他不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索\n\n08:42.248 --> 08:59.987\n結果他竊盜罪你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下\n\n09:01.058 --> 09:28.695\n其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則啊而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性\n\n09:29.355 --> 09:54.561\n如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助\n\n09:56.055 --> 10:05.050\n名冊贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位\n\n10:08.839 --> 10:27.011\n這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與\n\n10:28.192 --> 10:46.657\n罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看\n\n10:48.497 --> 11:04.814\n這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反產業礦氣法稅捐寄生法我應該是查他的一些\n\n11:05.655 --> 11:25.527\n一些帳冊船票AB帳進貨單電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛這是我們當警察官的一個基本概念結果呢你扣完這個之外你還要把他的機器一起扣回家原料都要把它扣回家這樣對嗎好就像說珍珠你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走\n\n11:27.029 --> 11:49.260\n這不對啊所以讓我想到一件事我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我突然想到周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家扣他的犯罪所得\n\n11:50.103 --> 12:15.699\n就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊\n\n12:17.076 --> 12:32.335\n他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所得無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回\n\n12:34.674 --> 12:59.786\n我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正貸執法啦所以他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場\n\n13:02.203 --> 13:30.982\n檢察院來做一個審查是不是得為證據之誤沒關係喔謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長我想部長跟局長其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調\n\n13:32.103 --> 13:52.870\n其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好然後我想其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎我要被查辦或者是\n\n13:54.441 --> 14:22.338\n民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理啊這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的嘛英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了\n\n14:23.423 --> 14:45.559\n賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大\n\n14:47.940 --> 15:01.671\n我是希望啦不要變成是整個就是說配合的政府政府這樣做還有就是我也不想跟我以前指導我的老師或者是我以前帶的學級司法官我指導他的\n\n15:02.392 --> 15:24.117\n在公務上面針鋒相對因為私下我們感情都非常好我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定\n\n15:25.754 --> 15:48.202\n是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼韋道文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說\n\n15:49.822 --> 16:07.650\n這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈年署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教請教局長第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個\n\n16:10.325 --> 16:21.050\n法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考慮要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有\n\n16:26.432 --> 16:38.402\n有明定了本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的\n\n16:42.125 --> 17:04.584\n但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛剛講的那個是社辦選罷法那個是社辦選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把\n\n17:06.138 --> 17:14.126\n這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關\n\n17:19.555 --> 17:42.338\n來局長你這樣說我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間連署期間你們有用選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告\n\n17:44.059 --> 18:03.265\n來請問一下沒有案子沒有所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠\n\n18:06.966 --> 18:22.554\n我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長您講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有犯藍綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效\n\n18:31.414 --> 18:48.778\n所以啊沒有你不要再講作弊了我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長他祖子是民進黨好那即使沒有這樣我們不講藍綠我們報告局長我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛為什麼局長\n\n18:56.840 --> 19:20.107\n局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在執行\n\n19:25.528 --> 19:48.343\n過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講\n\n19:48.743 --> 20:16.840\n全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法\n\n20:18.854 --> 20:39.228\n所以然後你下面跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎\n\n20:40.589 --> 20:57.608\n因為我記得我去年那時候沒有案件啊不是啊你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是今天我有意見的地方對\n\n20:59.129 --> 21:22.437\n這個都不用查這一次開始毛起來查這一次所有案件全部都是檢察官指揮我跟你講又來沒有人告發我跟你講多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天欸禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係沒關係局長\n\n21:26.258 --> 21:47.771\n我們需先接受委員的質疑好沒關係局長這樣啦齁您對我不滿我也OK啦不會報告委員絕對不會我私下像我跟部長我跟部長常針鋒相對但我對部長的關懷部長很清楚他就是我的長官公務之外他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是公務之外我對您的尊敬不會少一分謝謝委員謝謝委員\n\n21:49.633 --> 22:14.913\n唉我覺得齁如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉那我跟我在那邊可以告發啊我們選法法104條你就罷免的部分你有一些不實的資訊那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講藍白亂砍租金普帖後來又說沒有後來又被人家踢爆那洪森漢我剛剛講了嘛\n\n22:17.151 --> 22:46.327\n因應留職聽薪補貼他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免再添柴火那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛\n\n22:47.581 --> 23:05.726\n那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認\n\n23:07.028 --> 23:32.109\n那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.38,"end":8.259,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們麻煩法務部長 調查局局長以及署長 警政署署長"},{"start":19.542,"end":34.693,"text":"三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我現在還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力"},{"start":37.575,"end":61.404,"text":"因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的啦那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練"},{"start":62.765,"end":80.045,"text":"教育訓練呢 都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說 他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦 這些人是從哪裡來 我想大家都猜得到"},{"start":80.746,"end":100.152,"text":"所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我這跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下"},{"start":101.567,"end":123.487,"text":"那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙那今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題"},{"start":124.548,"end":150.442,"text":"是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署的問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關檢察官"},{"start":151.863,"end":179.638,"text":"警察非常的辛苦 而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低 這是不對而政人總統其實不去體恤警察啦一直說警察要市民如親 生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴 我比較希望說當然開那個是還好 但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長 依照社會秩序文物法第63條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想 影響公共安寧啊 這個"},{"start":180.818,"end":205.997,"text":"這個依照實務的見解就是應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼等等對不對對好那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那"},{"start":206.557,"end":229.416,"text":"還有人說 現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體 政論節目或YouTuber他們常常說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的思想尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是"},{"start":232.658,"end":236.264,"text":"違反了什麼法規 另外聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎 請問署長"},{"start":238.285,"end":265.469,"text":"法務委員我想這個是一個個案那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌"},{"start":266.189,"end":286.987,"text":"然後在上面寫了一句 而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦YouTube沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句 他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得"},{"start":287.788,"end":305.768,"text":"因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事很多人在講這些事情那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地但是不能談花嗎"},{"start":307.69,"end":326.902,"text":"甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽"},{"start":328.923,"end":341.79,"text":"那如果這個要辦的話 那前陣子那個劉四芳談到的租屋補貼 張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了 根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了"},{"start":344.651,"end":365.649,"text":"後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們"},{"start":366.149,"end":382.934,"text":"不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那個局長局長不好意思局長我想跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了"},{"start":384.674,"end":406.033,"text":"並同待回這件事啦 因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過公文 其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文"},{"start":406.593,"end":429.446,"text":"因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個聯署書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品"},{"start":430.306,"end":452.638,"text":"這個可以扣押 但是呢 對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物 這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡 我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人 他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人"},{"start":453.118,"end":476.214,"text":"所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡 其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官 我以為你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清所以甲官把他扣押回來這個是我事後跟你說 你說這個東西不該出現在那裡我必須跟你講的第一個 他該不該出現在那裡 沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡"},{"start":476.954,"end":494.903,"text":"我的東西 我的罰單 我有時候請別人幫我代繳 他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家 那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告 我現在講每一句話 我都說我在國會來 我講每一句話 歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯 所以"},{"start":496.644,"end":521.608,"text":"局長您說不該出現在那裡 所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對 我們就推給檢察官 所以說檢察官不應該好 而且更何況是一個合法的公文 他不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告 這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣 這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索"},{"start":522.248,"end":539.987,"text":"結果他竊盜罪你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下"},{"start":541.058,"end":568.695,"text":"其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則啊而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性"},{"start":569.355,"end":594.561,"text":"如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助"},{"start":596.055,"end":605.05,"text":"名冊 贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位"},{"start":608.839,"end":627.011,"text":"這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與"},{"start":628.192,"end":646.657,"text":"罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官 檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看"},{"start":648.497,"end":664.814,"text":"這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反產業礦氣法稅捐寄生法我應該是查他的一些"},{"start":665.655,"end":685.527,"text":"一些帳冊 船票 AB帳 進貨單 電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛 這是我們當警察官的一個基本概念結果呢 你扣完這個之外 你還要把他的機器一起扣回家原料都要把它扣回家 這樣對嗎好 就像說 珍珠 你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走"},{"start":687.029,"end":709.26,"text":"這不對啊 所以讓我想到一件事 我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我突然想到 周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家 扣他的犯罪所得"},{"start":710.103,"end":735.699,"text":"就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊"},{"start":737.076,"end":752.335,"text":"他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所得無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣 宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回"},{"start":754.674,"end":779.786,"text":"我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正貸執法啦所以他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場"},{"start":782.203,"end":810.982,"text":"檢察院來做一個審查 是不是得為證據之誤沒關係喔 謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長 我想部長跟局長其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼 那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候 我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人 包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調"},{"start":812.103,"end":832.87,"text":"其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入 其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好 然後 我想 其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的 我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎 我要被查辦 或者是"},{"start":834.441,"end":862.338,"text":"民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派 要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到 很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理啊這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的嘛英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了"},{"start":863.423,"end":885.559,"text":"賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大"},{"start":887.94,"end":901.671,"text":"我是希望啦 不要變成是整個 就是說配合的政府政府這樣做還有就是我也不想跟我以前指導我的老師或者是我以前帶的學級司法官我指導他的"},{"start":902.392,"end":924.117,"text":"在公務上面針鋒相對因為私下我們感情都非常好我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些 我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定"},{"start":925.754,"end":948.202,"text":"是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼韋道文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說"},{"start":949.822,"end":967.65,"text":"這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈年署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教請教局長第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個"},{"start":970.325,"end":981.05,"text":"法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考慮要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有"},{"start":986.432,"end":998.402,"text":"有明定了 本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的"},{"start":1002.125,"end":1024.584,"text":"但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛剛講的那個是社辦選罷法那個是社辦選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把"},{"start":1026.138,"end":1034.126,"text":"這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關"},{"start":1039.555,"end":1062.338,"text":"來 局長你這樣說 我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間 連署期間你們有用選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告"},{"start":1064.059,"end":1083.265,"text":"來 請問一下沒有案子沒有 所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長 謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠"},{"start":1086.966,"end":1102.554,"text":"我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長您講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有犯藍綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效"},{"start":1111.414,"end":1128.778,"text":"所以啊 沒有你不要再講作弊了 我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼 班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學 另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長 他祖子是民進黨好 那即使沒有這樣 我們不講藍綠我們報告局長 我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛 為什麼 局長"},{"start":1136.84,"end":1160.107,"text":"局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在執行"},{"start":1165.528,"end":1188.343,"text":"過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是 所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊 就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講"},{"start":1188.743,"end":1216.84,"text":"全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法"},{"start":1218.854,"end":1239.228,"text":"所以然後你下面跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎"},{"start":1240.589,"end":1257.608,"text":"因為我記得我去年 那時候沒有案件啊不是啊 你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是今天我有意見的地方 對"},{"start":1259.129,"end":1282.437,"text":"這個都不用查 這一次開始毛起來查這一次所有案件全部都是檢察官指揮我跟你講 又來沒有人告發我跟你講 多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講 局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天 欸 禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係沒關係 局長"},{"start":1286.258,"end":1307.771,"text":"我們需先接受委員的質疑好 沒關係局長 這樣啦齁 您對我不滿我也OK啦不會 報告委員絕對不會我私下像我跟部長 我跟部長常針鋒相對但我對部長的關懷 部長很清楚 他就是我的長官公務之外 他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是 公務之外 我對您的尊敬不會少一分謝謝委員 謝謝委員"},{"start":1309.633,"end":1334.913,"text":"唉 我覺得齁 如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉 那我跟我在那邊可以告發啊我們選法法104條 你就罷免的部分 你有一些不實的資訊那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下 那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講 藍白亂砍 租金普帖 後來又說沒有後來又被人家踢爆 那洪森漢 我剛剛講了嘛"},{"start":1337.151,"end":1366.327,"text":"因應留職聽薪補貼 他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是 沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免再添柴火那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛"},{"start":1367.581,"end":1385.726,"text":"那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認"},{"start":1387.028,"end":1412.109,"text":"那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時52分）謝謝主席。麻煩法務部部長、調查局局長以及警政署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：三位早安！三位辛苦了，謝謝三位對國家的貢獻。我先請教署長，其實我還是滿肯定警政署在打詐上面的努力，警察、消防人員真的就是在捍衛臺灣，捍衛臺灣的並不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍，我一直以來都很敬佩警察、消防和海巡同仁。署長，最近一直有不同警察局的人跟我提到有一些教育訓練都請一些很奇怪的人來講課，甚至是請一些紙上談兵的人來講課，所以他們就很懷疑他們一輩子都是穿防彈衣、配槍在做事情，結果現在來對他們教育訓練的人卻是根本不懂的。當然這些人是從哪裡來，我想大家都猜得到，我覺得國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體，請那些外行人來對一輩子配槍、穿防彈衣的內行人講解這些事情，其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行。在此跟署長報告，再麻煩署長能夠了解一下。","其次，我覺得最近打詐的問題非常多，這一直是國人很在意的，被騙的金額去年有時候平均一天高達4億，今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多，總統說警察打詐不力，破獲率只有1.3%，但是我在這邊要跟國人報告，其實真正的問題是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管，署長你認同這句話嗎？"],["張署長榮興：認同。"],["吳委員宗憲：也就是說，打詐的重點應該不是在於最後的司法機關，這不是法務部的問題，也不是警政署的問題，真正打詐的問題應該是出在行政機關，譬如對於Google、Meta等等所投放廣告的控管，但是目前我國的控管真的非常不足，所以導致後面司法機關、檢察官、警察非常辛苦，而且還被怪罪你們破獲率為什麼這麼低，這是不對的。甚至總統不體恤警察，一直說警察要視民如親、生活要簡約，但他自己卻在官邸開烤肉趴，雖然開那個還好，但應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵。我想請教署長，依照社會秩序維護法第六十三條，散播謠言足以影響公共安寧，針對影響公共安寧，依照實務見解，應該是一些不實的訊息會讓聽到的人感到恐懼等等，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我想請問一下，最近有一個議題吵得很凶，就是有人在網路貼文寫「陳菊走了？」警察在4小時內就把他抓到。現在很多網友就有意見了，說：哇！警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話，大家就不會這麼辛苦了。還有人說：現在連提問都不行了嗎？更何況很多媒體、政論節目或YouTuber常常說誰、誰、誰貪污，然後打一個問號，從來沒有見到你們查辦，為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦？再者，他今天來詢問一個問題，甚至這對公眾人物而言也算是可受公評的事項，尤其陳院長這麼久都沒有上班，人民提出這個問題，到底是違反了什麼法規？另外，聽到這句話，你會感到害怕嗎？請問署長。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，我想這是一個個案啦！針對個案這個狀況是不是一個事實，我們第一時間大概就是會去瞭解網址上的這個人，之後會瞭解他所講的是不是事實，如果有一些模糊地帶，我們會請示檢察官來做一個認定。"],["吳委員宗憲：署長，這會造成社會的恐慌。人家在網路上面寫了一句話，而且這句話是經常可以在媒體上看到的，但是媒體沒有人被辦、YouTuber沒有人被辦，結果一個小老百姓寫了這句話，而且他還是問到底有沒有這件事情，然後就被辦了！就像常常有人寫「金正恩是不是過世了？」西方媒體也常常在報導，但是從來沒有人去管這些事情。所以我一直覺得，我們對警察的信任以及對社會安全、安定的感覺，會在這幾件小事情上面被破壞殆盡！所以你要知道，很多網友在講這件事、很多人在講這件事，警察給社會的安定感就整個毀了。原來我可以談天、談地，但是不能談花媽！他沒有別的意思啊！因為當時確實有這個傳說，連我自己都聽到這個謠言，只是我不會上網去問，有人聽到之後問了這個問題，你們竟然動用警察去處理，這樣真的會造成社會不安。","而且署長剛剛講到內容真偽，如果這個要辦的話，前一陣子劉世芳談到租屋補貼，被踢爆是張冠李戴，洪申翰講的發不出育嬰留停補貼，也被踢爆根本沒這件事，林佳龍講的護照沒錢印了，後來也被發現沒有這個事情，張惇涵說中小企業補助都被藍白刪除，後來被發現也沒這個事情，這不是對社會影響更大嗎？為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢？這是我的問題！如果你只講內容的真偽，這些部長和總統府的副秘書長，他們幹的事情是更糟糕、更不應該的，結果你們不當一回事，一個小老百姓，你們卻處理成這樣！我要跟署長說，這一點其實我們是不滿的，再請署長瞭解一下。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：接下來我想跟調查局陳局長請教一下。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：那天我請問你「併同帶回」這件事情，包括部長，其實同一個問題你們那天並沒有給我答案，局長甚至說，這是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場，而且你說我沒有看過公文，其實我看過公文啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你可以質疑這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要公文，因為第一時間領取的人去問，中選會跟他說，這份公文要帶，所以他們一直認為這一份一定要帶，但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領連署書並不是重點，而是這一份公文是不是應該被扣押。我跟局長報告，扣押的定義是，對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押，第二是對於違禁品可以扣押，但是對於非違禁品的東西、非本案或他案的犯罪證物，是沒有扣押依據的！再者，你說那份公文不該出現在那裡，我跟局長報告，當天是發起人請一個黨部的人去幫他代領，所以他把身分證、委託書全部都交給黨部的人，所以你一直說這個東西不該出現在那裡，這是沒有任何依據的！"],["陳局長白立：那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛，所以檢察官……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我懂……"],["陳局長白立：現在委員講的是事後去瞭解……"],["吳委員宗憲：不、不、不，不對、不對！"],["陳局長白立：檢察官在現場覺得他需要釐清，所以檢察官把它扣押回來。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，這個是我事後跟你說，你說這個東西不該出現在那裡，我必須跟你講，第一個，它該不該出現在哪裡，並沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡，我的東西……"],["陳局長白立：所以檢察官需要釐清。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的罰單有時候請別人代繳，它可能會因此出現在他家，如果你認為那個不應該出現在我朋友家，你就說要扣走，這其實不符合我國刑事訴訟法的扣押依據。我要跟局長報告，我在國會以來，我講的每句話，歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯，所以局長您說不該出現在那裡，要扣回去釐清，這個完全沒有法律依據。"],["陳局長白立：這個檢察官在現場判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，你們就推給檢察官，所以說檢察官不應該。而且更何況這是一個合法的公文，它不是違禁品，我在這邊跟各位報告，這個東西根本不應該扣，對於不得查扣的東西進行查扣，這就不對了，所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子，就像你去人家搜索，他犯竊盜罪，你要去搜犯罪工具，結果你把他女朋友寫給他的情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下，這樣就不對了，所以你們說的這個其實我是沒有辦法接受，就好像什麼？","我們再來看一下，最近為什麼我們一直說你們是選擇性辦案？因為你們就大砲打小鳥，違反比例原則，而且違反司法獨立的一致性，所以真正在破壞司法威信的其實就是選擇性辦案的這些人。然後我也跟部長報告一件事情，我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性，一堆人想要把檢察官的司法官屬性拔掉，部長你很清楚，我一直拚了命的希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性，如果再這樣搞下去，人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢察一體，就是直接命令就幹了，然後跟著政治人物搖擺，所以檢察官的司法官屬性還能夠維持嗎？我們已經岌岌可危了，再越多這種案子下來，那將來怎麼辦？","再來，兩位，臺中市黨部被搜索之後扣走什麼？扣走贊助者名冊、動員名冊，還有歷年的戰情分析，請問一下，這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性？我想請教兩位。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案……"],["陳局長白立：這個都是個案的內容，我們都不知道到底在現場檢察官他指揮扣了什麼東西。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，你們都說不知道，包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道。我在這邊跟各位報告，這些東西其實都跟幽靈連署無關，甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡，根本不可能參與罷免，所以你把這個東西扣回去，只會讓大家懷疑，就算調查官、檢察官沒有惡意，你也會讓民眾懷疑這是怎麼回事，為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的支持者資料、動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了？你要扣給誰看？所以這都會讓民眾非常懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治綁在一起？就像什麼？就像檢調機關，我今天去查一間公司虛開發票，虛開發票違反商業會計法、稅捐稽徵法，我應該是查它的一些帳冊、傳票、AB帳、進貨單、電腦等沖銷明細，這是我們當檢察官的基本概念，結果你扣完這個之外，你還要把它的機器一起扣回家，原料都要扣回家，這樣對嗎？就像你去查珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票，結果連它的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走了，這不對啊！","所以也會讓我想到一件事，我跟兩位報告，我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通，還有周星馳的電影，我那天突然想到周星馳有部電影，皇帝叫韋小寶去鰲拜家抄家，扣他的犯罪所得，結果韋小寶把鰲拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了，然後還叫多隆把鰲拜的媽媽扣回多隆家去服侍，我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑，看不懂，但今天現在此刻我終於懂了，原來這個就叫做併同帶回，就是宜蘭地檢署說的併同帶回，因為它跟本案無關，它跟去鰲拜家查扣犯罪所得無關，為什麼也被韋小寶併同帶回？所以我現在看到的就是這樣，不管臺中也是這樣，宜蘭也是這樣，你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西，然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回，我到現在還是沒有辦法接受。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我想在這個過程裡面，檢察官他也都是依法行政，公正在執法，所以他到底扣了什麼內容，說實在我也不知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，謝謝局長。"],["陳局長白立：他依照搜索票的內容去執法，說實在……"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道局長你不知道，因為個案，局長可能不知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：必須跟委員報告，這個的確是一個個案的問題，那有沒有扣到什麼？這個是現場檢察官審查是不是可得為證據之物或是與案子有關，而且是按照法官的核定……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，謝謝部長的解釋。部長跟局長，其實你們比較高位階，你可能不了解個案扣了什麼，那我這邊跟各位報告，他們跟我講被扣了什麼，我聽完這些東西之後，我只覺得不合理，我在這邊跟兩位懇求，司法是百年大計，跟教育一樣，累積人民的信任真的要上百年，但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉，目前非常多人，包括吳子嘉的美麗島民調，人民對於司法被政治力介入，他認定是如此的比例非常高，這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌。","我想其實民進黨一直講求言論自由，但是這段時間我們看到的，我如果發言「陳菊走了嗎？」我就會被查辦，或是民進黨在黨綱裡面說，司法應該是跨越黨派要獨立審判，但是我現在其實看不到，很多時候變成是跟自己立場不同就處理，現在給我感覺好像變成這個樣子，像我們最近看到的，英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國卡內基國際自由基金會他們都提到了賴政府在這段時間的作為，其實造成我們內部的對立，這會影響到美國會不會拋棄臺灣的一個重大變數，這是經濟學人講的，或是他認為這個如果不管，會造成東亞地區兩岸之間的不穩定，然後會影響美國，這都是國外雜誌，譬如說卡內基基金會對美國政府影響力很大，所以我希望不要變成整個配合政府這樣做，還有我也不想跟以前指導我的老師，或者是我以前帶的學習司法官、我以前指導他的這些人，在公務上面針鋒相對，因為私下我們感情都非常好，我真的覺得不應該這樣。","最近很多人覺得不滿或是美麗島民調表示很多人對於司法被政治力介入不滿，為什麼很多人起來反抗？我還是再套一句周星馳電影講的，他說其實反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定，是執政者決定，你今天越倒行逆施，反抗的人就越多，我也是希望不要這樣，我們能夠一片和諧，但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨。","我最後請教局長，局長，我看到你們調查局給我的報告，我上次請問你說為什麼偽造文書的案子你要給他選舉查察的核分，然後你給我的理由其中一個是說這跟選罷法有關，我想請問一下，一階的幽靈連署跟選罷法哪一條有關，請教局長第幾條？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，其實我那天回答的是說，我們這是回歸到選舉查察的績效，本局廉政處在112年10月7號就已經有函頒法務部調查局113年總統、副總統及立法委員選舉查察專案績效考核要點，這是在112年10月就已經函頒了，這裡面的第十九點……"],["吳委員宗憲：不對，你講這個是亂帶風向，不要以為我聽不懂。"],["陳局長白立：你聽我說完，這裡面的第十九點就已經有明定了，本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選，其績效考核適用本要點規定，所以這個在112年底就已經定了。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你說的百分之百正確，我完全認同局長剛剛說的，但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係？"],["陳局長白立：這個是罷免的程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：你剛剛講的那個是涉犯選罷法。"],["陳局長白立：這個是罷免的程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：那個是涉犯選罷法。"],["陳局長白立：我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員，委員請回去看第十九點……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，今天我有拿到你們給我的資料，所以我請教你的問題，各地檢署在一階幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法，各地檢署哦！"],["陳局長白立：這個就是一個罷免程序啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，今天為什麼調查局可以把這個東西突然冠上跟選罷法有關，用選舉查察去核積分，突然從一個很低的積分變成好幾萬分的積分。"],["陳局長白立：這個是罷免程序，當然是跟選舉罷免有關。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，局長你這樣說，我請教你過往哪一次罷免……我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長、有罷免謝國樑市長，成功鎮等很多鎮長都有罷免，請問一下哪一次罷免期間、連署期間，你們有用選舉查察核分？我說連署期間。"],["陳局長白立：這個我們要回去查。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟局長報告，請問一下……"],["陳局長白立：沒有，沒有案子。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛！"],["陳局長白立：這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：那是史上第一次罷免嗎？是史上第一次罷免嗎？"],["陳局長白立：以前沒有這樣遍地開花的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛唸的韓院長、謝市長、臺東有一些鎮長，還有其他人的罷免案，那不都是罷免嗎？如果按照局長您說的對……"],["陳局長白立：最重要的一點，我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說藍綠，你不要給我誤導話題……"],["陳局長白立：對，我們沒有分藍跟綠。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說藍綠，我只說過往的罷免，如果依照局長您講得這麼振振有詞、這麼有道理，我也認同你，結果過往罷免為什麼沒有辦，今天的罷免突然變成你要用選罷法的績效……"],["陳局長白立：既然委員你也認同沒有分藍跟綠的話，那委員是擔心我們核績效給抓作弊的人，還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效？"],["吳委員宗憲：所以……"],["陳局長白立：既然沒有分藍綠……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，你不要再講作弊了，我上次已經講過一次了，我說這就好像什麼？班上兩個人作弊，一個退學，另外一個罰站5分鐘就坐下，因為他老爸是家長會長，他主子是民進黨，那即使沒有這樣……"],["陳局長白立：沒有，報告委員，現在的狀況已經不是這樣子……"],["吳委員宗憲：報告局長，我們不講藍綠，我只是講例子嘛，為什麼……"],["陳局長白立：現在是有人集體在教室作弊，而且外面還有公務員在配合。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你不用亂扯到那邊，我只請教局長，過往的罷免這麼多次了，請問哪一次在連署期間，你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索、大規模讓檢察官羈押，然後再把核分算為選舉查察的核分？請問過去哪一次有？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我們其實都沒有大規模，同時在這個階段，我們各類的案件也都同時在執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要再……好，不好意思，對不起，局長，大規模我講錯了，那我只請教一個問題，過去哪一次的罷免連署期間，你們有用這個方式？就是用選舉查察核分，請教局長，問題就這麼簡單。"],["陳局長白立：過去都沒有立案。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，所以這是史上第一次，我要跟各位報告，這是史上第一次。很多時候，就像我講的，一個公司如果突然把某一個項目的績效獎金提高10倍，我跟你講，全公司不會有人做別的事，全部去衝那個績效獎金的項目。所以我覺得這個不應該啦，就是因為過去沒有，現在突然有……"],["陳局長白立：但是委員，這個績效考核的辦法是在……不是突然有，我就跟您報告了嘛，是112年10月7號就已經有這個辦法。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得更可笑的是，一階的幽靈連署，各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法，我在這邊跟各位強調，沒有人用選舉罷免法，然後你現在在這邊跟我這樣講，我覺得……報告局長，你說112年，對不對？那你去查一下臺東縣成功鎮鎮長是什麼時候罷免的，我印象如果沒有錯是去年罷免的，那為什麼沒有用，這樣你講話不是就矛盾了？你不是剛剛才講嗎？"],["陳局長白立：那時候沒有案件啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啊！你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛，我現在說有這個核分……"],["陳局長白立：沒有案件，我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦，我們是要給他什麼核分？"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這就是今天我有意見的地方，這個你們之前都不用查，這一次開始卯起來查。"],["陳局長白立：那要看有沒有人告發，有沒有檢察官交查，這次所有的案件全部都是檢察官指揮。"],["吳委員宗憲：又來了，又說是沒有人告發，我跟你講，多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發，你們有資料就下去查辦。"],["陳局長白立：那是要看有沒有偽造文書。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，我知道局長很不高興，因為禮拜一局長回去的時候，貴司就有兩個人打電話給我說局長很不爽，我說我也沒辦法……"],["陳局長白立：我沒有什麼不爽，我們虛心接受委員的指教啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係、沒關係，局長，這樣啦，您對我不滿，我也OK啦，但我們就是就事論事。"],["陳局長白立：不會，報告委員，絕對不會，我們都是為了公事。"],["吳委員宗憲：像我跟部長常針鋒相對，但我對部長的關懷部長很清楚，他就是我的長官，公務之外，他就是我尊敬的長官，對您也是，公務之外，我對您的尊敬不會少一分。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得如果真的我們要去談妨害選舉，那我在這邊也可以告發啊。選罷法第一百零四條，就罷免的部分如有不實資訊，也會違反第一百零四條第一項。那我們來想一下，之前劉世芳講藍白亂砍租金補貼，後來就被人家踢爆，又說沒有；我剛剛也有提到，洪申翰說育嬰留職停薪補貼被藍白刪光，結果後來查也沒有這件事；林佳龍講的護照，後來也沒有這件事；張惇涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光，後來查也沒有這件事，這些就是為了罷免在添柴火，為什麼沒有人根據第一百零四條第一項來辦呢？所以是不是我這邊就直接告發，麻煩局長這邊能夠來查，因為既然要處理，我們這麼重視司法以及國人，我們就這樣做。","麻煩局長、部長，這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長，他們的虛假訊息意圖影響到罷免，符合選舉罷免法第一百零四條第一項的規定，是不是就應該要開始查辦這些事情？因為這是虛假訊息，連他們自己後來都承認，所以是不是可以這樣做？","一樣，我這邊跟各位說，我們公務上面針鋒相對，我該講什麼就講什麼，你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音，我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡，如果對我們不滿，我也覺得不好意思，對各位有所冒犯，但是該講的話我還是會講出來。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，絕對不會不滿啦，我們一定虛心接受指教。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦，因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話，算了，沒關係，這個我不講。"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：一樣，謝謝三位的辛勞。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳思瑤","麥玉珍","李坤城","林月琴","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","林倩綺","沈發惠","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":423,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政\n部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就\n「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施\n行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00008"}}}