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00:00:16,261\n現在我們請王宏慧委員發言謝謝主席一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長麻煩局長\n\n2\n00:00:30,857 --> 00:00:37,262\n好那個局長剛才我聽了那個吳宗憲趙偉的質詢你的那個回答我覺得你這個應該是未來升官發財都指日可待非常非常的那個\n\n3\n00:00:50,444 --> 00:01:08,018\n可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以\n\n4\n00:01:09,098 --> 00:01:15,843\n局長,你未來關運,祝你關運亨通啦但是局長我想請問一下,剛才在講,就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施那請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署\n\n5\n00:01:30,493 --> 00:01:53,975\n各位委員報告我們這112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定好我要講現在看有好多種\n\n6\n00:01:54,816 --> 00:02:04,181\n好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號\n\n7\n00:02:11,204 --> 00:02:34,709\n中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,189 --> 00:03:00,039\n也有沒有告發呢?有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢?你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高敏玲、陳志忠\n\n9\n00:03:01,314 --> 00:03:14,580\n林長佐等等中選會通通有告發請問有辦嗎奇怪了中選會告發你們當它中選會是SOGA喔中選會的告發你們有辦嗎沒有辦啊至於你112年可以適用的我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前你沒有辦當然沒有適用\n\n10\n00:03:24,785 --> 00:03:39,317\n謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎沒有辦你有適用嗎你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是因人設事\n\n11\n00:03:41,567 --> 00:03:51,356\n都沒有給你那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究啊中選會告發中選會還是行政單位為什麼檢察官可以不查不需要查沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛\n\n12\n00:04:03,306 --> 00:04:16,295\n沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好再來\n\n13\n00:04:32,445 --> 00:04:55,556\n剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點\n\n14\n00:04:56,596 --> 00:05:08,490\n但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假對不對\n\n15\n00:05:09,775 --> 00:05:17,137\n台北市黨部是不是這個是個案的內容這還不個案你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉是不是在裝傻來來不知道也可以回答我已經講過了在台北市你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的\n\n16\n00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:51,296\n但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢\n\n17\n00:05:51,877 --> 00:06:06,613\n好剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查\n\n18\n00:06:07,954 --> 00:06:25,950\n國民黨的金主們嗎是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走所以現在檢調你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦聯署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析\n\n19\n00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:57,502\n也也違法了嗎請問一下一個市黨部裡面任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析這是什麼樣的違法的文件來回答我這就通案了啦這已經是通案不是個案請問一下在黨部裡面如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押可以帶走\n\n20\n00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:16,332\n答不出來嗎這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走\n\n21\n00:07:17,504 --> 00:07:33,403\n這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權了好再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走\n\n22\n00:07:34,454 --> 00:07:54,913\n然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走\n\n23\n00:07:57,428 --> 00:08:02,951\n請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不叫不是濫權一日一令狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛\n\n24\n00:08:12,156 --> 00:08:20,638\n那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎\n\n25\n00:08:38,223 --> 00:08:43,467\n然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨部民進黨的地方黨部嗎有嗎所以怎麼樣你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很你覺得很理所當然\n\n26\n00:09:03,183 --> 00:09:09,265\n這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密\n\n27\n00:09:34,415 --> 00:09:57,302\n那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為扣所欲口扣愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎副秘書長跟案情無關的他都說可以帶走嗎\n\n28\n00:09:59,808 --> 00:10:25,627\n搜索票它是那个令状主义所以说有关于那个搜索的那个对象跟那个标的物在搜索票上面都有记载好那请问一下以这个联署的话那么它应该是跟联署伪造联署相关的嘛对不对你们难道是说只要比如说你今天搜索台北市党部台北市党部所有的一草一木你都可以带走是这样吗\n\n29\n00:10:26,721 --> 00:10:48,065\n我想請問一下當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的\n\n30\n00:10:51,574 --> 00:11:06,218\n那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走\n\n31\n00:11:19,938 --> 00:11:44,194\n或者是他是以罷免這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析嘛因為還沒有成立嘛可能是過去的戰情分析可以按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍\n\n32\n00:11:45,553 --> 00:11:59,029\n報告委員就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權\n\n33\n00:12:03,334 --> 00:12:26,131\n因為即便被調查者被調查的我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛對不對我們都是無罪推定嘛是我們是無罪推定是那麼可以這樣的由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索\n\n34\n00:12:27,492 --> 00:12:51,011\n在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了\n\n35\n00:12:52,264 --> 00:13:02,032\n好所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮\n\n36\n00:13:07,028 --> 00:13:30,163\n而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎\n\n37\n00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:56,774\n搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言欸不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是\n\n38\n00:14:00,151 --> 00:14:19,064\n你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委黃禮菊她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說\n\n39\n00:14:24,123 --> 00:14:49,303\n這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿\n\n40\n00:14:54,773 --> 00:15:13,194\n抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場\n\n41\n00:15:14,275 --> 00:15:42,148\n他都要先了解而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話也作為羈押的理由是不是如此那個包委員齁這個確實是那個個案齁那但是就是依他這個文字上面那個解讀他這個並不是因為當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思\n\n42\n00:15:42,984 --> 00:15:59,826\n那你都放在新聞稿了我相信這個判決書一定更露露腸啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華呀然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎\n\n43\n00:16:02,025 --> 00:16:30,373\n這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答\n\n44\n00:16:31,013 --> 00:16:53,839\n我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊景儒的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是\n\n45\n00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:23,231\n皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意\n\n46\n00:17:24,485 --> 00:17:43,231\n即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以\n\n47\n00:17:44,437 --> 00:17:54,425\n在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人群讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4227\t16261\t現在我們請王宏慧委員發言謝謝主席一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長麻煩局長\n30857\t37262\t好 那個局長 剛才我聽了那個吳宗憲 趙偉的質詢 你的那個回答我覺得你這個應該是未來 升官發財都指日可待 非常非常的那個\n50444\t68018\t可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以\n69098\t75843\t局長,你未來關運,祝你關運亨通啦但是局長我想請問一下,剛才在講,就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施那請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署\n90493\t113975\t各位委員報告我們這112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定好 我要講現在看有好多種\n114816\t124181\t好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號\n131204\t154709\t中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎\n156189\t180039\t也有沒有告發呢?有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢?你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高敏玲、陳志忠\n181314\t194580\t林長佐等等 中選會通通有告發 請問有辦嗎奇怪了 中選會告發 你們當它 中選會是SOGA喔中選會的告發你們有辦嗎 沒有辦啊至於你112年可以適用的 我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前 你沒有辦 當然沒有適用\n204785\t219317\t謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎 沒有辦你有適用嗎 你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是因人設事\n221567\t231356\t都沒有給你 那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查 他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查 那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究啊 中選會告發 中選會還是行政單位為什麼檢察官可以不查不需要查 沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛\n243306\t256295\t沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有 這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好 再來\n272445\t295556\t剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好 當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點\n296596\t308490\t但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假 對不對\n309775\t317137\t台北市黨部是不是 這個是個案的內容這還不個案 你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉 是不是在裝傻來來 不知道也可以回答 我已經講過了在台北市 你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的\n335236\t351296\t但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢\n351877\t366613\t好剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查\n367954\t385950\t國民黨的金主們嗎 是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走所以現在檢調你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦聯署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析\n393720\t417502\t也 也違法了嗎請問一下 一個市黨部裡面 任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析 這是什麼樣的違法的文件來 回答我 這就通案了啦 這已經是通案 不是個案請問一下 在黨部裡面 如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押 可以帶走\n420356\t436332\t答不出來嗎這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走\n437504\t453403\t這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權了好 再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走\n454454\t474913\t然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走\n477428\t482951\t請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不叫不是濫權一日一令狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛\n492156\t500638\t那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎\n518223\t523467\t然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨部民進黨的地方黨部嗎有嗎所以怎麼樣你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很你覺得很理所當然\n543183\t549265\t這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密\n574415\t597302\t那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為 扣所欲口 扣愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎 副秘書長跟案情無關的他都說可以帶走嗎\n599808\t625627\t搜索票它是那个令状主义所以说有关于那个搜索的那个对象跟那个标的物在搜索票上面都有记载好那请问一下以这个联署的话那么它应该是跟联署伪造联署相关的嘛对不对你们难道是说只要比如说你今天搜索台北市党部台北市党部所有的一草一木你都可以带走是这样吗\n626721\t648065\t我想請問一下 當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了 這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的\n651574\t666218\t那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走\n679938\t704194\t或者是 他是以罷免 這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析嘛 因為還沒有成立嘛可能是過去的戰情分析可以 按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍\n705553\t719029\t報告委員就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權\n723334\t746131\t因為即便被調查者 被調查的 我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛 對不對 我們都是無罪推定嘛 是我們是無罪推定 是那麼可以這樣的 由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志 他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索\n747492\t771011\t在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了\n772264\t782032\t好 所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛 對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮\n787028\t810163\t而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎\n811556\t836774\t搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言欸不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是\n840151\t859064\t你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委黃禮菊她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說\n864123\t889303\t這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿\n894773\t913194\t抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場\n914275\t942148\t他都要先了解 而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話 也作為羈押的理由是不是如此那個包委員齁 這個確實是那個個案齁那但是就是依他這個文字上面那個解讀他這個並不是因為 當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思\n942984\t959826\t那你都放在新聞稿了我相信這個判決書一定更露露腸啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華呀然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣 制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎\n962025\t990373\t這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答\n991013\t1013839\t我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊 景儒的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是\n1021636\t1043231\t皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意\n1044485\t1063231\t即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以\n1064437\t1074425\t在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人群讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝\n","txt":"現在我們請王宏慧委員發言謝謝主席一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長麻煩局長\n好 那個局長 剛才我聽了那個吳宗憲 趙偉的質詢 你的那個回答我覺得你這個應該是未來 升官發財都指日可待 非常非常的那個\n可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以\n局長,你未來關運,祝你關運亨通啦但是局長我想請問一下,剛才在講,就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施那請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署\n各位委員報告我們這112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定好 我要講現在看有好多種\n好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號\n中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎\n也有沒有告發呢?有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢?你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高敏玲、陳志忠\n林長佐等等 中選會通通有告發 請問有辦嗎奇怪了 中選會告發 你們當它 中選會是SOGA喔中選會的告發你們有辦嗎 沒有辦啊至於你112年可以適用的 我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前 你沒有辦 當然沒有適用\n謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎 沒有辦你有適用嗎 你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是因人設事\n都沒有給你 那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查 他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查 那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究啊 中選會告發 中選會還是行政單位為什麼檢察官可以不查不需要查 沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛\n沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有 這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好 再來\n剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好 當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點\n但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假 對不對\n台北市黨部是不是 這個是個案的內容這還不個案 你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉 是不是在裝傻來來 不知道也可以回答 我已經講過了在台北市 你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的\n但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢\n好剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查\n國民黨的金主們嗎 是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走所以現在檢調你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦聯署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析\n也 也違法了嗎請問一下 一個市黨部裡面 任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析 這是什麼樣的違法的文件來 回答我 這就通案了啦 這已經是通案 不是個案請問一下 在黨部裡面 如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押 可以帶走\n答不出來嗎這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走\n這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權了好 再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走\n然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走\n請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不叫不是濫權一日一令狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛\n那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎\n然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨部民進黨的地方黨部嗎有嗎所以怎麼樣你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很你覺得很理所當然\n這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密\n那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為 扣所欲口 扣愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎 副秘書長跟案情無關的他都說可以帶走嗎\n搜索票它是那个令状主义所以说有关于那个搜索的那个对象跟那个标的物在搜索票上面都有记载好那请问一下以这个联署的话那么它应该是跟联署伪造联署相关的嘛对不对你们难道是说只要比如说你今天搜索台北市党部台北市党部所有的一草一木你都可以带走是这样吗\n我想請問一下 當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了 這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的\n那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走\n或者是 他是以罷免 這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析嘛 因為還沒有成立嘛可能是過去的戰情分析可以 按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍\n報告委員就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權\n因為即便被調查者 被調查的 我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛 對不對 我們都是無罪推定嘛 是我們是無罪推定 是那麼可以這樣的 由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志 他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索\n在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了\n好 所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛 對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮\n而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎\n搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言欸不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是\n你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委黃禮菊她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說\n這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿\n抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場\n他都要先了解 而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話 也作為羈押的理由是不是如此那個包委員齁 這個確實是那個個案齁那但是就是依他這個文字上面那個解讀他這個並不是因為 當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思\n那你都放在新聞稿了我相信這個判決書一定更露露腸啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華呀然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣 制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎\n這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答\n我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊 景儒的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是\n皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意\n即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以\n在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人群讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.227 --> 00:16.261\n現在我們請王宏慧委員發言謝謝主席一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長麻煩局長\n\n00:30.857 --> 00:37.262\n好那個局長剛才我聽了那個吳宗憲趙偉的質詢你的那個回答我覺得你這個應該是未來升官發財都指日可待非常非常的那個\n\n00:50.444 --> 01:08.018\n可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以\n\n01:09.098 --> 01:15.843\n局長,你未來關運,祝你關運亨通啦但是局長我想請問一下,剛才在講,就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施那請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署\n\n01:30.493 --> 01:53.975\n各位委員報告我們這112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定好我要講現在看有好多種\n\n01:54.816 --> 02:04.181\n好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號\n\n02:11.204 --> 02:34.709\n中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎\n\n02:36.189 --> 03:00.039\n也有沒有告發呢?有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢?你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高敏玲、陳志忠\n\n03:01.314 --> 03:14.580\n林長佐等等中選會通通有告發請問有辦嗎奇怪了中選會告發你們當它中選會是SOGA喔中選會的告發你們有辦嗎沒有辦啊至於你112年可以適用的我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前你沒有辦當然沒有適用\n\n03:24.785 --> 03:39.317\n謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎沒有辦你有適用嗎你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是因人設事\n\n03:41.567 --> 03:51.356\n都沒有給你那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究啊中選會告發中選會還是行政單位為什麼檢察官可以不查不需要查沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛\n\n04:03.306 --> 04:16.295\n沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好再來\n\n04:32.445 --> 04:55.556\n剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點\n\n04:56.596 --> 05:08.490\n但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假對不對\n\n05:09.775 --> 05:17.137\n台北市黨部是不是這個是個案的內容這還不個案你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉是不是在裝傻來來不知道也可以回答我已經講過了在台北市你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的\n\n05:35.236 --> 05:51.296\n但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢\n\n05:51.877 --> 06:06.613\n好剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查\n\n06:07.954 --> 06:25.950\n國民黨的金主們嗎是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走所以現在檢調你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦聯署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析\n\n06:33.720 --> 06:57.502\n也也違法了嗎請問一下一個市黨部裡面任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析這是什麼樣的違法的文件來回答我這就通案了啦這已經是通案不是個案請問一下在黨部裡面如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押可以帶走\n\n07:00.356 --> 07:16.332\n答不出來嗎這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走\n\n07:17.504 --> 07:33.403\n這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權了好再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走\n\n07:34.454 --> 07:54.913\n然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走\n\n07:57.428 --> 08:02.951\n請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不叫不是濫權一日一令狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛\n\n08:12.156 --> 08:20.638\n那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎\n\n08:38.223 --> 08:43.467\n然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨部民進黨的地方黨部嗎有嗎所以怎麼樣你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很你覺得很理所當然\n\n09:03.183 --> 09:09.265\n這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密\n\n09:34.415 --> 09:57.302\n那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為扣所欲口扣愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎副秘書長跟案情無關的他都說可以帶走嗎\n\n09:59.808 --> 10:25.627\n搜索票它是那个令状主义所以说有关于那个搜索的那个对象跟那个标的物在搜索票上面都有记载好那请问一下以这个联署的话那么它应该是跟联署伪造联署相关的嘛对不对你们难道是说只要比如说你今天搜索台北市党部台北市党部所有的一草一木你都可以带走是这样吗\n\n10:26.721 --> 10:48.065\n我想請問一下當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的\n\n10:51.574 --> 11:06.218\n那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走\n\n11:19.938 --> 11:44.194\n或者是他是以罷免這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析嘛因為還沒有成立嘛可能是過去的戰情分析可以按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍\n\n11:45.553 --> 11:59.029\n報告委員就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權\n\n12:03.334 --> 12:26.131\n因為即便被調查者被調查的我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛對不對我們都是無罪推定嘛是我們是無罪推定是那麼可以這樣的由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索\n\n12:27.492 --> 12:51.011\n在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了\n\n12:52.264 --> 13:02.032\n好所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮\n\n13:07.028 --> 13:30.163\n而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎\n\n13:31.556 --> 13:56.774\n搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言欸不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是\n\n14:00.151 --> 14:19.064\n你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委黃禮菊她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說\n\n14:24.123 --> 14:49.303\n這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿\n\n14:54.773 --> 15:13.194\n抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場\n\n15:14.275 --> 15:42.148\n他都要先了解而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話也作為羈押的理由是不是如此那個包委員齁這個確實是那個個案齁那但是就是依他這個文字上面那個解讀他這個並不是因為當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思\n\n15:42.984 --> 15:59.826\n那你都放在新聞稿了我相信這個判決書一定更露露腸啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華呀然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎\n\n16:02.025 --> 16:30.373\n這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答\n\n16:31.013 --> 16:53.839\n我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊景儒的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是\n\n17:01.636 --> 17:23.231\n皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意\n\n17:24.485 --> 17:43.231\n即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以\n\n17:44.437 --> 17:54.425\n在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人群讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.227,"end":16.261,"text":"現在我們請王宏慧委員發言謝謝主席一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長麻煩局長"},{"start":30.857,"end":37.262,"text":"好 那個局長 剛才我聽了那個吳宗憲 趙偉的質詢 你的那個回答我覺得你這個應該是未來 升官發財都指日可待 非常非常的那個"},{"start":50.444,"end":68.018,"text":"可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以"},{"start":69.098,"end":75.843,"text":"局長,你未來關運,祝你關運亨通啦但是局長我想請問一下,剛才在講,就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施那請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署"},{"start":90.493,"end":113.975,"text":"各位委員報告我們這112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定好 我要講現在看有好多種"},{"start":114.816,"end":124.181,"text":"好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號"},{"start":131.204,"end":154.709,"text":"中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎"},{"start":156.189,"end":180.039,"text":"也有沒有告發呢?有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢?你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高敏玲、陳志忠"},{"start":181.314,"end":194.58,"text":"林長佐等等 中選會通通有告發 請問有辦嗎奇怪了 中選會告發 你們當它 中選會是SOGA喔中選會的告發你們有辦嗎 沒有辦啊至於你112年可以適用的 我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前 你沒有辦 當然沒有適用"},{"start":204.785,"end":219.317,"text":"謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎 沒有辦你有適用嗎 你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是因人設事"},{"start":221.567,"end":231.356,"text":"都沒有給你 那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查 他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查 那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究啊 中選會告發 中選會還是行政單位為什麼檢察官可以不查不需要查 沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛"},{"start":243.306,"end":256.295,"text":"沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有 這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好 再來"},{"start":272.445,"end":295.556,"text":"剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好 當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點"},{"start":296.596,"end":308.49,"text":"但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假 對不對"},{"start":309.775,"end":317.137,"text":"台北市黨部是不是 這個是個案的內容這還不個案 你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉 是不是在裝傻來來 不知道也可以回答 我已經講過了在台北市 你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的"},{"start":335.236,"end":351.296,"text":"但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢"},{"start":351.877,"end":366.613,"text":"好剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查"},{"start":367.954,"end":385.95,"text":"國民黨的金主們嗎 是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走所以現在檢調你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦聯署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析"},{"start":393.72,"end":417.502,"text":"也 也違法了嗎請問一下 一個市黨部裡面 任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析 這是什麼樣的違法的文件來 回答我 這就通案了啦 這已經是通案 不是個案請問一下 在黨部裡面 如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押 可以帶走"},{"start":420.356,"end":436.332,"text":"答不出來嗎這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走"},{"start":437.504,"end":453.403,"text":"這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權了好 再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走"},{"start":454.454,"end":474.913,"text":"然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走"},{"start":477.428,"end":482.951,"text":"請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不叫不是濫權一日一令狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛"},{"start":492.156,"end":500.638,"text":"那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎"},{"start":518.223,"end":523.467,"text":"然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨部民進黨的地方黨部嗎有嗎所以怎麼樣你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很你覺得很理所當然"},{"start":543.183,"end":549.265,"text":"這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密"},{"start":574.415,"end":597.302,"text":"那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為 扣所欲口 扣愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎 副秘書長跟案情無關的他都說可以帶走嗎"},{"start":599.808,"end":625.627,"text":"搜索票它是那个令状主义所以说有关于那个搜索的那个对象跟那个标的物在搜索票上面都有记载好那请问一下以这个联署的话那么它应该是跟联署伪造联署相关的嘛对不对你们难道是说只要比如说你今天搜索台北市党部台北市党部所有的一草一木你都可以带走是这样吗"},{"start":626.721,"end":648.065,"text":"我想請問一下 當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了 這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的"},{"start":651.574,"end":666.218,"text":"那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走"},{"start":679.938,"end":704.194,"text":"或者是 他是以罷免 這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析嘛 因為還沒有成立嘛可能是過去的戰情分析可以 按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍"},{"start":705.553,"end":719.029,"text":"報告委員就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權"},{"start":723.334,"end":746.131,"text":"因為即便被調查者 被調查的 我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛 對不對 我們都是無罪推定嘛 是我們是無罪推定 是那麼可以這樣的 由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志 他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索"},{"start":747.492,"end":771.011,"text":"在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了"},{"start":772.264,"end":782.032,"text":"好 所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛 對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮"},{"start":787.028,"end":810.163,"text":"而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎"},{"start":811.556,"end":836.774,"text":"搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言欸不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是"},{"start":840.151,"end":859.064,"text":"你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委黃禮菊她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說"},{"start":864.123,"end":889.303,"text":"這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿"},{"start":894.773,"end":913.194,"text":"抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場"},{"start":914.275,"end":942.148,"text":"他都要先了解 而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話 也作為羈押的理由是不是如此那個包委員齁 這個確實是那個個案齁那但是就是依他這個文字上面那個解讀他這個並不是因為 當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思"},{"start":942.984,"end":959.826,"text":"那你都放在新聞稿了我相信這個判決書一定更露露腸啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華呀然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣 制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎"},{"start":962.025,"end":990.373,"text":"這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答"},{"start":991.013,"end":1013.839,"text":"我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊 景儒的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是"},{"start":1021.636,"end":1043.231,"text":"皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意"},{"start":1044.485,"end":1063.231,"text":"即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以"},{"start":1064.437,"end":1074.425,"text":"在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人群讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時15分）謝謝主席，一樣先請法務部部長還有調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長，剛才我聽了吳宗憲召委的質詢，你的回答，我覺得你未來升官發財應該指日可待……"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會，我把我現在的工作做好就好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：非常地會看上級的臉色來辦事，我們在談到很多案件時，都說因為是個案所以不去談，但是你剛才也提到，竟然在整個偵辦過程裡面，就可以講到有人在教室裡面集體作弊，所以局長，祝你官運亨通。"],["陳局長白立：我是舉例。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是局長，我想請問一下，剛才在講的，有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施，請問一下，112年有沒有在連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署？112年之後……"],["陳局長白立：跟委員報告，我們在112年訂定的這個績效要點，主要是為了因應113年的二合一選舉，但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到，因為本次選舉而當選的當選人，將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選時，他的績效考核也適用本要點的規定。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講，現在有好多種不同的標準，剛才說過去都沒有告發，怎麼會沒有告發呢？我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後？在113年11月29號中選會就告發了有關謝國樑市長罷免案相關的偽造連署及死亡連署，他的罷免時間是113年11月29號，所以如果可以適用相關的獎勵辦法，我就不懂，當時謝國樑的罷免案有辦嗎？有沒有告發呢？有告發呀！另外，過去數次不管是公投案或是罷免案，中選會有沒有告發呢？你剛剛說都沒有人告發，中選會也是有告發的……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，您剛剛講的這個案子，檢察官沒有發查。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高閔琳、陳致中、林昶佐等等，中選會通通有告發，請問有辦嗎？奇怪了，中選會告發，你們當中選會是塑膠喔？中選會的告發你們有辦嗎？沒有辦啊！"],["陳局長白立：中選會跟檢方告發，檢方沒有交查給我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：至於112年可以適用的，我剛才講的那幾個確實是在112年之前，你沒有辦，當然沒有適用，但謝國樑罷免案113年年底被告發，你有辦嗎？沒有辦，你有適用嗎？你也沒有適用，所以你現在講所謂的標準，根本都是因人設事，都是因人設事，這個……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你剛剛提到的那幾個案子，檢察官都沒有發查給我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有給你，那是檢察官怠惰囉？"],["陳局長白立：檢察官他可以自己查，他本來就是偵查主體……"],["王委員鴻薇：那為什麼不查？為什麼不查？"],["陳局長白立：他不一定要發查給調查局，他可能會發查給警察。"],["王委員鴻薇：你為什麼不去追究？中選會告發，中選會還是行政單位……"],["陳局長白立：中選會不是跟調查局告發。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼檢察官可以不查？不需要查，因為沒有交辦嘛！沒有交辦就不必查嘛，有交辦才需要查嘛，而且要大規模查，唯一的標準就是如此啊！你剛才在講的，不管是相關規定也好、有沒有告發也好，現在看起來全部都是雙標，還不只雙標，是好幾個標準，唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛！"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你還在這邊硬拗嗎？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，這我不用拗，因為我很清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：你當然在硬拗。再來，剛才都說是個案，可是很多的個案連結起來是不是就是通案？大家都知道，在民主國家裡面，你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情，當然，你們這次以偽造文書、以連署造假來做你們調查、偵查的重點，但是我上次在這邊也講過，在你們搜索臺北市黨部的時候，你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛憶連署的造假，對不對？臺北市黨部是不是？"],["陳局長白立：這個是個案的內容，我覺得……"],["王委員鴻薇：這又是個案，你又在裝傻了！"],["陳局長白立：委員，你不要問我這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要裝傻了，是不是在裝傻？"],["陳局長白立：而且我也不會知道他們在現場搜了什麼啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，來，部長也可以回答，我已經講過了，在臺北市你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署，所以針對的區是非常明確的，結果你帶走的是什麼呢？你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊，我上次講，中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳沛憶委員跟吳思瑤委員呢？剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在臺中，你們把支持者的名冊也帶走，請問支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢？所以你今天是要查國民黨的金主們，是不是？你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走？現在檢調辦案已經辦到無限上綱，你們本來是辦連署造假，結果把支持者的名冊帶走，把戰情分析帶走，現在是怎樣？連選舉時人家的戰情分析也違法了嗎？請問一下，一個市黨部裡面、任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析，這是什麼樣違法的文件？回答我，這就是通案了啦！這已經是通案，不是個案。請問在黨部裡面如果有戰情分析，它是什麼樣的違法文件，可以扣押、可以帶走？答不出來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這還是個案的一個認定。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是個案？這當然是通案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員已經問過，這個還是要個別認定，而且檢察官是依法官搜索票內容進行搜索……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果把黨部金主的名冊帶走，把戰情的分析帶走，這叫做個案？個案你們不會去查嗎？這根本都違法了，這是違法濫權啊！","再來，剛才講宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走，一開始還否認，最後說不小心帶走，請問這還是用個案視之嗎？所以從臺北市黨部，到臺中市黨部、到宜蘭縣黨部，你們把不應該帶走的東西，而且不可以帶走的東西，通通帶走，請問檢察官或者調查局可以如此濫權嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是濫權。"],["王委員鴻薇：這不叫濫權？來，部長講這怎麼不叫濫權？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是依令狀來執行的扣押，釐清之後如果認為沒有留存的必要，當然就發還了嘛！這一件就是它的……"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼要釐清戰情分析？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果認為沒有留存的必要，這個釐清就可以……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼釐清就可以？你們什麼樣都可以帶走，裡面所有無關案情的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是要按照令狀的……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎？你是要怎麼樣？是要去查人家水表嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案的……"],["王委員鴻薇：你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎？可以嗎？另外，你說沒有兩套標準？你說都有辦啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是兩套標準，這是個案認定，所以委員不要誤會了。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有去抄任何民進黨的地方黨部嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且如果釐清沒有留存的必要，就已經發還了嘛！宜蘭地檢署也發新聞稿做澄清，委員知道嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以怎麼樣？你還可以不發還人家，是不是？你帶走還覺得很理所當然？所以……"],["鄭部長銘謙：連署的公文已經發還了嘛！認為沒有留存的必要，已經釐清了嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：這就是完全的濫權啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這沒有濫權啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼可以追殺一個政黨，追殺到這種地步？巧立一個名目來辦案，然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有什麼巧立名目，這是令狀，是照法院核發的搜索票去執行的。"],["王委員鴻薇：搜索票可以……來，時間暫停。我請司法院副秘，廳長也上來好了。法務部說這個只要你們發了搜索票，所以他可以為所欲為、扣所欲扣，愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼，副秘書長，是這樣嗎？跟案情無關的都可以帶走嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：搜索票是令狀主義，所以有關搜索的對象跟標的物在搜索票上面都有記載。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，以這個連署，它應該是跟偽造連署相關的文件，對不對？比如今天搜索臺北市黨部，你們難道臺北市黨部所有的一草一木都可以帶走，是這樣嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個要看個案的判斷，還有依當時申請的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，當法院發搜索票的時候，跟案情無關的文件，是不是也可以隨便的帶走？隨便的扣押？我剛才講了，這個很多都跟案情無關，一點關係都沒有的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這真的也是要看搜索票中……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才所說的這些狀況，我們檢調單位去扣押這些相關證物的時候，有沒有已經逾越了法官開搜索票的範圍？我剛才說了，今天罷免連署是這個選區，但是它去把其他選區的名冊一併帶走，或者以罷免連署的案子，但是有相關的戰情分析，它的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析，因為還沒有成立，可能是過去的戰情分析，按照我剛才講實際的具體案例，有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，在個案執行的時候，是依實際上的狀況，在搜索票上面，它的搜索標的不會到、非常特定的一個文件……"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長，我們以保障人權來講，即便被調查的，還未經判決的，我們都是無罪推定，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：可以由第一線檢調人員做這樣的……完全由他的意志來決定要帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎？你覺得這樣的搜索，在臺灣說尊重司法人權，要落實司法人權，這樣是合理的嗎？我剛才講的都是實際案例喔！合理嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：如果非本案扣押的話，後面還是有救濟程序，還是可以經由司法再做一次審查。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是他已經帶走了喔！所以你也不敢講這是合理的嘛，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的就是在這一波整個的搜索裡面，我們看到不同的地檢署，講白話就是殺紅了眼，而法務部或調查局完全沒有做任何的節制，即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些疑慮，但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係。","你今天如此對一個在野黨，對一般的升斗小民何嘗不是如此呢？你只要拿了一個搜索票進去，搜索票是萬能的嗎？你想要扣什麼證物就扣什麼證物嗎？無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎？如果是這樣，臺灣沒有司法人權可言耶！不是如此嗎？","另外，我也請教副秘書長，當然你們一定會講是個案，在昨天臺北市黨部的主委黃呂錦茹抗告失敗，當然這是個案，但是在你們的新聞稿裡面駁回他抗告的理由，其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論，裡面說黃呂錦茹涉嫌刑法……然後有一個重點，我用紅色匡起來，「且被告與本案其餘共犯間，關於政治立場及本案犯刑部分，均有利害關係」，所以大家的質疑是今天要不要羈押他，難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎？","按照你們的新聞稿，其中抗告駁回的理由是他們之間的政治立場，也就是說，不管是檢察官也好或是法官也好，當他們決定要不要羈押他的時候，他們要先了解當事人跟其他被告的政治立場，如果覺得你們相似、一樣的話，這也作為羈押的理由，是不是如此？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這確實是個案，但依文字上的解讀，當事人並不是因為政治立場所以受到羈押與否的決定，我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣的意思。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們都放在新聞稿了耶！我相信這個判決書一定更「落落長」，新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華啊！今天提到他的政治立場，這是怎麼樣？自證這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎？這是法官也自證在決定要不要駁回他抗告的時候，也會考量當事人的政治立場嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，法官不管是依憲法或是依法官法，他絕對是獨立審判，是要超出政黨屬性還有政治立場的……"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我也知道在這邊得不到你們的回話，因為你們也會想這個到底怎麼回答。我只是覺得不管檢調或是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎？連政治立場都可以放到抗告的新聞稿裡面，大喇喇的向上表忠是不是？以我來看，這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊！因為我知道黃呂錦茹的政治立場。","太扯了！司法應該是皇后的貞操，但是你們現在的操作，司法現在變成皇帝的貞操了，有貞操可言嗎？在這一連串的事件裡面，你們的操作非常粗暴，而且完全雙標，如果你們覺得不以為意，即便是基層的人這樣的搞法，你們還覺得可以護航，那麼臺灣的司法人權在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏。我覺得大家都難得可以在高官上做一些事情，但是如果今天把司法人權做的讓大家看不起，我覺得這其實是很悲哀的事情，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷不在。","沈發惠、沈發惠，沈發惠不在。","郭昱晴、郭昱晴，郭昱晴不在。","現在請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳思瑤","麥玉珍","李坤城","林月琴","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","林倩綺","沈發惠","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":423,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政\n部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就\n「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施\n行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00008"}}}