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{\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 324.262, \"end\": 324.923, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 324.923, \"end\": 325.323, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 325.323, \"end\": 325.483, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 325.483, \"end\": 325.583, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 325.583, \"end\": 325.663, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 325.663, \"end\": 325.763, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 325.763, \"end\": 325.883, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 325.883, \"end\": 326.563, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 326.563, \"end\": 326.724, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 326.724, \"end\": 326.864, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 326.864, \"end\": 326.924, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 326.924, \"end\": 326.944, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"場\"}]}, {\"start\": 328.376, \"end\": 355.936, \"text\": \"好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 328.376, \"end\": 329.277, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 329.277, \"end\": 329.437, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 329.437, \"end\": 329.557, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 329.557, \"end\": 329.917, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 329.917, \"end\": 330.077, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 330.077, \"end\": 330.598, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 330.598, \"end\": 330.758, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 330.758, \"end\": 330.938, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 330.938, \"end\": 331.138, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 331.138, \"end\": 331.338, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 355.916, \"end\": 355.936, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 358.197, \"end\": 387.091, \"text\": \"這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"罷\"}, {\"word\": \"免\", \"start\": 358.197, \"end\": 358.357, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 358.357, \"end\": 358.517, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 358.517, \"end\": 358.697, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 358.697, \"end\": 358.838, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 358.838, \"end\": 359.038, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 359.038, \"end\": 359.198, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 359.198, \"end\": 359.478, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 359.478, \"end\": 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\"end\": 545.014, \"text\": \"好 那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 529.679, \"end\": 530.14, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 530.14, \"end\": 530.4, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 530.4, \"end\": 530.52, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 530.52, \"end\": 530.7, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 530.7, \"end\": 530.86, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 530.86, \"end\": 531.06, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 531.06, \"end\": 531.241, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 531.241, \"end\": 531.381, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 531.381, \"end\": 531.481, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 531.481, \"end\": 532.462, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 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\"所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 825.999, \"end\": 826.179, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 826.179, \"end\": 826.619, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 826.619, \"end\": 827.419, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 827.419, \"end\": 827.559, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 827.559, \"end\": 827.679, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 827.679, \"end\": 828.58, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 828.58, \"end\": 828.86, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 828.86, \"end\": 829.841, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 829.841, \"end\": 830.001, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 830.001, \"end\": 831.261, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 831.261, \"end\": 831.922, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 831.922, \"end\": 832.082, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 832.082, \"end\": 832.402, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"拚\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 832.402, \"end\": 832.642, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 832.642, \"end\": 832.862, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 832.862, \"end\": 832.922, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 832.922, \"end\": 833.102, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"拚\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 833.102, \"end\": 833.603, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 833.603, \"end\": 834.403, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 834.403, \"end\": 834.543, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 834.543, \"end\": 834.663, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 834.663, \"end\": 835.424, 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\"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 838.285, \"end\": 838.545, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 838.545, \"end\": 838.665, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 838.665, \"end\": 839.446, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 839.446, \"end\": 839.646, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 839.646, \"end\": 839.806, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 839.806, \"end\": 840.006, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 840.006, \"end\": 840.266, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 840.266, \"end\": 840.786, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 840.786, \"end\": 840.926, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 840.926, \"end\": 841.067, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 841.067, \"end\": 841.467, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 841.467, 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\"所\", \"start\": 849.313, \"end\": 849.694, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 849.694, \"end\": 850.615, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 850.615, \"end\": 850.855, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 850.855, \"end\": 851.035, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 851.035, \"end\": 851.255, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 851.255, \"end\": 851.716, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 851.716, \"end\": 851.956, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 851.956, \"end\": 852.256, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 852.256, \"end\": 852.396, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 852.396, \"end\": 853.297, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 853.297, \"end\": 853.878, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 853.878, \"end\": 854.018, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", 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00:00:58,794\n那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成以上的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題\n\n4\n00:01:00,765 --> 00:01:27,387\n以及這個不管是中共的軍援等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意\n\n5\n00:01:28,368 --> 00:01:37,255\n那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府\n\n6\n00:01:38,342 --> 00:01:58,759\n在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為\n\n7\n00:02:01,342 --> 00:02:15,742\n罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六\n\n8\n00:02:16,443 --> 00:02:39,045\n那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委\n\n9\n00:02:40,226 --> 00:03:08,023\n今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答\n\n10\n00:03:08,203 --> 00:03:25,002\n好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日這是確定的\n\n11\n00:03:28,286 --> 00:03:56,723\n那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差\n\n12\n00:03:57,643 --> 00:04:14,198\n所以而且而且他的這個投票的時間法律有明文規定就是必須要在成立20到60天之內要辦理投票所以罷免案的時間比較複雜他到底什麼時候具備\n\n13\n00:04:15,979 --> 00:04:40,389\n的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來做討論決定\n\n14\n00:04:43,070 --> 00:04:58,105\n主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省別人大稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法\n\n15\n00:04:58,891 --> 00:05:26,944\n一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場\n\n16\n00:05:28,376 --> 00:05:55,936\n好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個\n\n17\n00:05:58,197 --> 00:06:27,091\n這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡\n\n18\n00:06:28,443 --> 00:06:55,235\n我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為他不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模\n\n19\n00:06:57,296 --> 00:07:22,922\n他的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話他大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話他人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億他是一千五百萬左右\n\n20\n00:07:24,022 --> 00:07:24,862\n那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應\n\n21\n00:07:44,559 --> 00:08:03,112\n這個因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支付一定要申請行政院來動資第二預備金那我要跟主委報告這行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的所以我當然等期是非常不願意看到\n\n22\n00:08:03,973 --> 00:08:30,931\n不管是國民黨民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個公奴的耗損主委請回答\n\n23\n00:08:32,167 --> 00:08:49,219\n現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重\n\n24\n00:08:49,679 --> 00:09:05,014\n好那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委\n\n25\n00:09:05,655 --> 00:09:31,316\n一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供\n\n26\n00:09:32,557 --> 00:09:42,282\n這個被罷免人一個很明確的解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署\n\n27\n00:09:47,199 --> 00:10:02,359\n所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免\n\n28\n00:10:04,261 --> 00:10:19,097\n所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們\n\n29\n00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:37,057\n覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法\n\n30\n00:10:38,078 --> 00:10:56,093\n提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到的是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間\n\n31\n00:10:57,109 --> 00:11:14,022\n第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊那這個是法務\n\n32\n00:11:14,722 --> 00:11:44,002\n我們規定所以就程序就不明確我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進行所以我跟你講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒有辦法修身養息就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好那請主委繼續回應謝謝好那有關於連署的部分\n\n33\n00:11:46,622 --> 00:12:09,807\n法也是沒有明文規定對啊所以我就說主委法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些情緒弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了\n\n34\n00:12:10,467 --> 00:12:27,865\n你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署\n\n35\n00:12:28,925 --> 00:12:57,598\n40天的審查期所以法也沒有禁止的規定對啊所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊\n\n36\n00:12:58,298 --> 00:13:17,220\n還是法無名額規定對我們管不到所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾\n\n37\n00:13:17,981 --> 00:13:43,821\n他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突民人命的衝突我認為是非常的\n\n38\n00:13:45,999 --> 00:14:03,108\n所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大\n\n39\n00:14:03,908 --> 00:14:20,584\n大惡霸變成是什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你\n\n40\n00:14:22,675 --> 00:14:46,737\n那也是很清楚的,不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說,這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉,天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息啊所以我希望主委,不管是主委還是賴清哲政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上,六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的齁這裡希望說,主委不管是門檻的部分,大家都還有討論的空間\n\n41\n00:14:47,898 --> 00:15:11,494\n所以現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們要尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來反對一下更重要的是大家要守法\n\n42\n00:15:11,914 --> 00:15:19,065\n我們珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1035\t7222\t好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體朋友大家早有請李進勇主委李進勇主委有請\n14901\t31895\t主委好 再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭\n33416\t58794\t那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成以上的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題\n60765\t87387\t以及這個不管是中共的軍援等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意\n88368\t97255\t那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府\n98342\t118759\t在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為\n121342\t135742\t罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六\n136443\t159045\t那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委\n160226\t188023\t今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答\n188203\t205002\t好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日這是確定的\n208286\t236723\t那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差\n237643\t254198\t所以而且而且他的這個投票的時間法律有明文規定就是必須要在成立20到60天之內要辦理投票所以罷免案的時間比較複雜他到底什麼時候具備\n255979\t280389\t的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來做討論決定\n283070\t298105\t主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省別人大稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法\n298891\t326944\t一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場\n328376\t355936\t好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個\n358197\t387091\t這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡\n388443\t415235\t我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為他不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模\n417296\t442922\t他的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話他大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話他人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億他是一千五百萬左右\n444022\t444862\t那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應\n464559\t483112\t這個因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支付一定要申請行政院來動資第二預備金那我要跟主委報告這行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的所以我當然等期是非常不願意看到\n483973\t510931\t不管是國民黨民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個公奴的耗損主委請回答\n512167\t529219\t現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低 社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重\n529679\t545014\t好 那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委\n545655\t571316\t一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供\n572557\t582282\t這個被罷免人一個很明確的解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署\n587199\t602359\t所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免\n604261\t619097\t所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們\n621159\t637057\t覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法\n638078\t656093\t提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到的是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間\n657109\t674022\t第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊那這個是法務\n674722\t704002\t我們規定所以就程序就不明確我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進行所以我跟你講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒有辦法修身養息就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好那請主委繼續回應謝謝好那有關於連署的部分\n706622\t729807\t法也是沒有明文規定對啊 所以我就說主委法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些情緒弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了\n730467\t747865\t你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署\n748925\t777598\t40天的審查期所以法也沒有禁止的規定對啊 所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是 這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊\n778298\t797220\t還是法無名額規定對 我們管不到所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾\n797981\t823821\t他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突民人命的衝突我認為是非常的\n825999\t843108\t所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大\n843908\t860584\t大惡霸變成是什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你\n862675\t886737\t那也是很清楚的,不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說,這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉,天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息啊所以我希望主委,不管是主委還是賴清哲政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上,六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的齁這裡希望說,主委不管是門檻的部分,大家都還有討論的空間\n887898\t911494\t所以現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們要尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來反對一下更重要的是大家要守法\n911914\t919065\t我們珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好 謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體朋友大家早有請李進勇主委李進勇主委有請\n主委好 再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭\n那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成以上的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題\n以及這個不管是中共的軍援等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意\n那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府\n在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為\n罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六\n那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委\n今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答\n好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日這是確定的\n那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差\n所以而且而且他的這個投票的時間法律有明文規定就是必須要在成立20到60天之內要辦理投票所以罷免案的時間比較複雜他到底什麼時候具備\n的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來做討論決定\n主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省別人大稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法\n一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場\n好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個\n這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡\n我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為他不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模\n他的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話他大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話他人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億他是一千五百萬左右\n那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應\n這個因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支付一定要申請行政院來動資第二預備金那我要跟主委報告這行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的所以我當然等期是非常不願意看到\n不管是國民黨民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個公奴的耗損主委請回答\n現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低 社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重\n好 那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委\n一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供\n這個被罷免人一個很明確的解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署\n所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免\n所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們\n覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法\n提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到的是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間\n第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊那這個是法務\n我們規定所以就程序就不明確我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進行所以我跟你講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒有辦法修身養息就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好那請主委繼續回應謝謝好那有關於連署的部分\n法也是沒有明文規定對啊 所以我就說主委法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些情緒弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了\n你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署\n40天的審查期所以法也沒有禁止的規定對啊 所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是 這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊\n還是法無名額規定對 我們管不到所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾\n他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突民人命的衝突我認為是非常的\n所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大\n大惡霸變成是什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你\n那也是很清楚的,不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說,這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉,天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息啊所以我希望主委,不管是主委還是賴清哲政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上,六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的齁這裡希望說,主委不管是門檻的部分,大家都還有討論的空間\n所以現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們要尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來反對一下更重要的是大家要守法\n我們珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.035 --> 00:07.222\n好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體朋友大家早有請李進勇主委李進勇主委有請\n\n00:14.901 --> 00:31.895\n主委好再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭\n\n00:33.416 --> 00:58.794\n那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成以上的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題\n\n01:00.765 --> 01:27.387\n以及這個不管是中共的軍援等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意\n\n01:28.368 --> 01:37.255\n那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府\n\n01:38.342 --> 01:58.759\n在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為\n\n02:01.342 --> 02:15.742\n罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六\n\n02:16.443 --> 02:39.045\n那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委\n\n02:40.226 --> 03:08.023\n今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答\n\n03:08.203 --> 03:25.002\n好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日這是確定的\n\n03:28.286 --> 03:56.723\n那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差\n\n03:57.643 --> 04:14.198\n所以而且而且他的這個投票的時間法律有明文規定就是必須要在成立20到60天之內要辦理投票所以罷免案的時間比較複雜他到底什麼時候具備\n\n04:15.979 --> 04:40.389\n的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來做討論決定\n\n04:43.070 --> 04:58.105\n主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省別人大稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法\n\n04:58.891 --> 05:26.944\n一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場\n\n05:28.376 --> 05:55.936\n好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個\n\n05:58.197 --> 06:27.091\n這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡\n\n06:28.443 --> 06:55.235\n我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為他不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模\n\n06:57.296 --> 07:22.922\n他的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話他大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話他人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億他是一千五百萬左右\n\n07:24.022 --> 07:24.862\n那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應\n\n07:44.559 --> 08:03.112\n這個因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支付一定要申請行政院來動資第二預備金那我要跟主委報告這行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的所以我當然等期是非常不願意看到\n\n08:03.973 --> 08:30.931\n不管是國民黨民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個公奴的耗損主委請回答\n\n08:32.167 --> 08:49.219\n現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重\n\n08:49.679 --> 09:05.014\n好那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委\n\n09:05.655 --> 09:31.316\n一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供\n\n09:32.557 --> 09:42.282\n這個被罷免人一個很明確的解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署\n\n09:47.199 --> 10:02.359\n所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免\n\n10:04.261 --> 10:19.097\n所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們\n\n10:21.159 --> 10:37.057\n覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法\n\n10:38.078 --> 10:56.093\n提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到的是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間\n\n10:57.109 --> 11:14.022\n第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊那這個是法務\n\n11:14.722 --> 11:44.002\n我們規定所以就程序就不明確我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進行所以我跟你講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒有辦法修身養息就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好那請主委繼續回應謝謝好那有關於連署的部分\n\n11:46.622 --> 12:09.807\n法也是沒有明文規定對啊所以我就說主委法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些情緒弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了\n\n12:10.467 --> 12:27.865\n你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署\n\n12:28.925 --> 12:57.598\n40天的審查期所以法也沒有禁止的規定對啊所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊\n\n12:58.298 --> 13:17.220\n還是法無名額規定對我們管不到所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾\n\n13:17.981 --> 13:43.821\n他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突民人命的衝突我認為是非常的\n\n13:45.999 --> 14:03.108\n所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大\n\n14:03.908 --> 14:20.584\n大惡霸變成是什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你\n\n14:22.675 --> 14:46.737\n那也是很清楚的,不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說,這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉,天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息啊所以我希望主委,不管是主委還是賴清哲政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上,六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的齁這裡希望說,主委不管是門檻的部分,大家都還有討論的空間\n\n14:47.898 --> 15:11.494\n所以現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們要尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來反對一下更重要的是大家要守法\n\n15:11.914 --> 15:19.065\n我們珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.035,"end":7.222,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體朋友大家早有請李進勇主委李進勇主委有請"},{"start":14.901,"end":31.895,"text":"主委好 再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭"},{"start":33.416,"end":58.794,"text":"那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成以上的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題"},{"start":60.765,"end":87.387,"text":"以及這個不管是中共的軍援等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意"},{"start":88.368,"end":97.255,"text":"那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府"},{"start":98.342,"end":118.759,"text":"在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為"},{"start":121.342,"end":135.742,"text":"罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六"},{"start":136.443,"end":159.045,"text":"那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委"},{"start":160.226,"end":188.023,"text":"今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答"},{"start":188.203,"end":205.002,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日這是確定的"},{"start":208.286,"end":236.723,"text":"那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差"},{"start":237.643,"end":254.198,"text":"所以而且而且他的這個投票的時間法律有明文規定就是必須要在成立20到60天之內要辦理投票所以罷免案的時間比較複雜他到底什麼時候具備"},{"start":255.979,"end":280.389,"text":"的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來做討論決定"},{"start":283.07,"end":298.105,"text":"主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省別人大稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法"},{"start":298.891,"end":326.944,"text":"一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場"},{"start":328.376,"end":355.936,"text":"好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個"},{"start":358.197,"end":387.091,"text":"這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡"},{"start":388.443,"end":415.235,"text":"我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為他不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模"},{"start":417.296,"end":442.922,"text":"他的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話他大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話他人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億他是一千五百萬左右"},{"start":444.022,"end":444.862,"text":"那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應"},{"start":464.559,"end":483.112,"text":"這個因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支付一定要申請行政院來動資第二預備金那我要跟主委報告這行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的所以我當然等期是非常不願意看到"},{"start":483.973,"end":510.931,"text":"不管是國民黨民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個公奴的耗損主委請回答"},{"start":512.167,"end":529.219,"text":"現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低 社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重"},{"start":529.679,"end":545.014,"text":"好 那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委"},{"start":545.655,"end":571.316,"text":"一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供"},{"start":572.557,"end":582.282,"text":"這個被罷免人一個很明確的解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署"},{"start":587.199,"end":602.359,"text":"所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免"},{"start":604.261,"end":619.097,"text":"所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們"},{"start":621.159,"end":637.057,"text":"覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法"},{"start":638.078,"end":656.093,"text":"提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到的是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間"},{"start":657.109,"end":674.022,"text":"第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊那這個是法務"},{"start":674.722,"end":704.002,"text":"我們規定所以就程序就不明確我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進行所以我跟你講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒有辦法修身養息就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好那請主委繼續回應謝謝好那有關於連署的部分"},{"start":706.622,"end":729.807,"text":"法也是沒有明文規定對啊 所以我就說主委法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些情緒弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了"},{"start":730.467,"end":747.865,"text":"你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署"},{"start":748.925,"end":777.598,"text":"40天的審查期所以法也沒有禁止的規定對啊 所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是 這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊"},{"start":778.298,"end":797.22,"text":"還是法無名額規定對 我們管不到所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾"},{"start":797.981,"end":823.821,"text":"他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突民人命的衝突我認為是非常的"},{"start":825.999,"end":843.108,"text":"所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大"},{"start":843.908,"end":860.584,"text":"大惡霸變成是什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你"},{"start":862.675,"end":886.737,"text":"那也是很清楚的,不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說,這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉,天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息啊所以我希望主委,不管是主委還是賴清哲政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上,六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的齁這裡希望說,主委不管是門檻的部分,大家都還有討論的空間"},{"start":887.898,"end":911.494,"text":"所以現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們要尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來反對一下更重要的是大家要守法"},{"start":911.914,"end":919.065,"text":"我們珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時29分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員、各位媒體朋友，大家早。有請李進勇主委。"],["主席：李進勇主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。主委，再過2週，我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年，在這一年賴總統的執政，我們沒有看到有什麼表現，只是不管是執政黨、在野黨不斷地鬥爭，卻對我們剛剛從你的資料看到今年罷免公職人員已經累積到六十幾案了。其實民眾的眼睛是雪亮的，根據民調顯示，將近六成以上的民眾反對現在這樣的惡意罷免，因為臺灣人民看到不管是美國的高關稅及新臺幣匯率升值等問題，還有中共軍演和兩岸局勢明顯緊張、情勢升溫等等，都不希望政府還在搞大罷免。尤其人民心中非常不滿，去年才剛經過總統、立委選舉，今年又要開始罷免，再加上補選，明年也還要舉行縣市長跟地方議員、里長的選舉，選舉非常的多，人民非常的不滿意。","主委，你從2019年上任至今滿6年了，從蔡英文政府到現在的賴清德政府，但在賴清德政府執政時卻有這麼多的罷免案，所以很明顯看出來賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統、鬥雞政府？本席在這邊想請教主委，今年是很特別的一年，除了剛剛我講的這麼多選舉，今年還有一個很特別的公投選舉，因為罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起，其實法無明文規定，就像剛剛主委講的，是由委員會來決定。公投法第二十三條第一項規定，公民投票日定於8月的第4個星期六，從民國110年起，每二年舉行一次，所以今年就是定在8月23號。主委，這是我的一個比較卑微請求，因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案，現在正在提案中，就是反廢死跟反戒嚴的公投案。請問主委，今年所有的罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起？因為這樣可以節省很多的行政成本以及人民的納稅錢。我聽說，如果沒有綁在一起，每投一張票，可能就要花人民1,500塊的納稅錢，是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示，有沒有機會讓今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起？請主委回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教。有關於公投的部分，如果是立法院做成決定，交付中選會來辦理投票的話，它的時間是非常確定的，也就是公投日根據公投法……"],["張委員智倫：8月23日。"],["李主任委員進勇：8月23日是確定的。"],["張委員智倫：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院送過來的話，要讓我們有90天的宣告，所以立法院應該要在5月24日、25日送到中選會來，這樣我們才有時間來進行公告，這是確定的。"],["張委員智倫：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：但是有關於罷免的案件，因為它成案的時間不同，查對的時間會有落差，而且投票時間法律有明文規定，必須要在成立20到60天之內辦理投票。所以罷免案的時間比較複雜，到底什麼時候所具備的條件到達才可以宣告成立？我們現在真的是難以預料。因此委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能？雖然法律沒有規定可以合併，但是有沒有可能合併在一起，我實在沒有辦法預料。"],["張委員智倫：好。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去，根據當時的狀況再來討論決定。"],["張委員智倫：主委，因為我沒辦法參加委員會，所以我剛剛有請教你，為了節省人民納稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本，您個人在委員會的時候支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個，一定要合法。"],["張委員智倫：絕對是合法。"],["李主任委員進勇：第二個，當然要減少社會成本的支出……"],["張委員智倫：所以你會支持？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是非常非常重要的。第三個，還要考慮到我們選務的能量，基於這三個考慮，我們委員會會做深入的討論。"],["張委員智倫：好，那主委支不支持？"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是我支不支持的問題，我是說必須要這三個同時考量。"],["張委員智倫：那你會反對嗎？你反不反對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有預設立場。"],["張委員智倫：好，那我就請主委要在合法、合規而且節省人民納稅錢、行政支出，尤其是在投票的量能之下，好好來幫人民節省納稅錢，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛剛就提到這三點。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。第二個問題，我想要請教主委，根據中選會的報告，我剛才也有提到，現在進行的罷免案將近有59案，大部分包含的是立委的……"],["李主任委員進勇：立委有50案。"],["張委員智倫：立委有50案，大部分都是立委的罷免案。其實一個立委基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民，如果這整個選舉罷免案成立，大概會有1,500萬的選區選民在投票，那我想要請問主委，現在你們有預計辦理罷免需要花多少經費？經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎？當然要順便一提，我認為中選會很辛苦，每年都要辦選務工作，是不是可以請主委回答，大概會花多少錢？經費來源大概在哪裡？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們為了這個經費問題的確是很傷透腦筋，因為不確定的因素很多，尤其是到底有幾個案子……"],["張委員智倫：以現在進行中的案子，如果全部成案的話，你們有沒有統計過會花多少經費？經費來源是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們只能夠以過去的經驗，以一個個案來說，規模大小固然有差別，但是也不會差太多，每一個立委的選區地域規模、人口多寡都會影響。我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話，大概是花了將近2,000萬……"],["張委員智倫：一個選區花2,000萬？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果以臺北第五選區來講的話，他們人口是少了一點，也比較集中……"],["張委員智倫：好，所以大概會花十幾億嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：大概是1,500萬左右。一個案子如果平均抓1,700、1,800萬，這樣大概可以抓出一個數，我們必須要抓出大概的需求數，我們才能夠……"],["張委員智倫：好，了解。請問主委，經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料……"],["張委員智倫：是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支應？"],["李主任委員進勇：一定要向行政院申請動支第二預備金。"],["張委員智倫：好，我也要跟主委報告，針對行政院的第二預備金，其實新聞媒體也在報導，它其實過去都是在救災使用，所以本席當然非常不願意看到，不管是國民黨、民進黨的立委都被罷免。從這次的全國大罷免中，其實中選會主委的立場非常重要，你是不是覺得現行罷免案的門檻10%就可以連署、25%就可以罷免過關，這個門檻是不是過低？你認為這有沒有需要修法？大家可以來討論，避免大罷免導致人民對選舉的疲乏以及公帑的耗損。主委，請回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的……"],["張委員智倫：對，你會不會覺得……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行，至於門檻的高低，社會各界的看法，我想大家可以多多交換意見，立法院如果認為有修法的必要，我們也表示尊重。"],["張委員智倫：好，那就可以繼續討論了。最後我要請教主委的就是，在這次罷免連署中，中選會的立場非常重要，可是我們也看到很多程序上不明確的地方，比如說一開始在第一階段連署時，那時候我就有請教過主委，一年內不得提罷免，可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署？當時您說法無明文規定或者你是跟我講說沒有人檢舉，可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生的非常嚴重；2月3號送件時，2月1號、2月2號是假日，我們看到2月3號送了非常多件進來，就變成說程序上……其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供被罷免人很明確的解釋。我們現在看到第二階段罷免是60天的連署期間，可是我發現這60天的連署，有很多罷免團體送件了以後還繼續連署，變成現在審查期40天後可以再繼續連署；甚至審查完了以後，如果裡面內容有一些要補件的話，還有10天可以補件，變成另外有50天的連署期間。本席認為，我們對於公民團體為罷免所做的事情都能尊重，可是這會讓被罷免人的心裡會覺得：不就是60天的連署期嗎？怎麼會變成連署完，交件了以後……就像考完試交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷？所以這樣的做法是中選會認同的嗎？還是現在也是法無明文規定？所以我的意思就是說，關於現在的，因為大家認為我們臺灣是民主社會，我們投票、民主選舉的法律概念是很嚴格的。可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子，所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法提供一個很明確的程序的話，其實對被罷免方，不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員，會造成好像罷免變成霸凌，造成地方的分裂跟團體的衝突。所以請主委解釋一下，現在罷免到底是60天，還是連補件跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一點，有關於提議的部分，提議就是送件，應該在任期滿一年以後，但其實我們也知道，有很多提議是在一年以前就已經開始進行……"],["張委員智倫：連署單是在一年前簽的啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個法無明文規定。"],["張委員智倫：所以程序不明確嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們認為這是屬於人民的自由，選委會也沒有辦法禁止他。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委我跟你講，選舉投票是自由民主，這是很明確的，罷免我認為也應該要很明確，這樣才公平、才對等。為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情？因為選舉完以後就開始分裂、就開始衝突，民眾沒辦法休生養息，變成選舉完以後馬上進行罷免，就是因為程序不確定。好，請主委繼續回應，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：有關於連署的部分，法也是沒有明文規定，但是……"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我的意思是，法永遠都沒有明文規定，所以主委的態度跟主委你要把這些程序弄得很清楚啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們可以從法律規定的辦法來尋求答案，也就是說，法律的規定是，連署人名冊送進來之後，經過我查對，你少了幾份，所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補。"],["張委員智倫：那審查期間可不可以連署？"],["李主任委員進勇：10天的期間裡面，你要他補，你又不准他去連署，這個是會有矛盾的。"],["張委員智倫：40天的審查期可不可以連署？"],["李主任委員進勇：40天的審查期，這個法也沒有禁止的規定。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我要跟主委講，就是因為法沒有規定，讓地方造成分裂跟衝突，就大家每天只要選舉完，就一直在地方連署嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：關於連署，選罷法雖然沒有明文規定，但是相關的法律，尤其是包括個資保護的法律，還是必須要遵守。"],["張委員智倫：到底40天的審查期可不可以連署？主委可不可以明確回應？"],["李主任委員進勇：40天的審查期裡面，我們管不到啊。"],["張委員智倫：還是法無明文規定？"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們管不到。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委我要跟你報告的是，投票是什麼時候？60天前才能做選舉活動，這些都規定得非常明確。但因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件，導致不管是被罷免方，提議罷免的民眾，他們都無所適從，而且被罷免方是不能募款等等這些，我們現在都尊重現在的規定。可是主委，要在這一次大罷免以後，我們應該學習到一個教訓，怎麼樣讓臺灣的民主社會是可以平衡的，不是說選舉完以後就開始連署、就開始罷免，而且也沒有任何明文規定。送件了以後繼續可以連署，造成地方的衝突、人民的衝突，我認為是非常不正確的。所以在這邊我希望政府、賴總統及執政應該要好好拚民生，不要拚鬥爭，所以我希望說，如果人民覺得這次的罷免，而且像主委剛剛的回應來講，很多的程序是不明確的，大罷免變成大惡罷、變成大霸凌，我認為這樣是非常不好的，所以我請主委……"],["李主任委員進勇：報告委員，所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確，其實並不一定畫上等號。"],["張委員智倫：好，主委你還有解釋嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有明文規定的話，就是百姓你去做，我不處罰你，那也是很清楚的，不能說它不明確。"],["張委員智倫：所以我的意思就是說，這樣子的制度……"],["李主任委員進勇：被允許的行為……"],["張委員智倫：造成地方的分裂，造成人民一直會覺得好像天天在選舉、天天看到一些政治活動，沒辦法休養生息，所以我希望不管是主委還是賴清德政府，應該要體察，剛剛我提到六成的民眾是反對這樣子惡罷的，所以希望主委，不管是門檻的部分，大家都還有討論的空間，可是現在看到這麼多的罷免案，其實造成社會的分裂，而且現在整個臺灣的政治環境，不能嘴巴說要對外一致團結，可是事實上內部在做……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音，我們都尊重。"],["張委員智倫：好，主委，那就拜託你，希望這是臺灣最後一次大罷免，我這邊也要呼籲，如果覺得這個活動不合理的人，應該出來投反對票。"],["李主任委員進勇：更重要的是大家要守法。"],["張委員智倫：大家一定要守法，一定要守法。"],["李主任委員進勇：珍惜我們民主的成果，大家要按照法律的規定來進行。"],["張委員智倫：對，大家要珍惜民主的成果，選完以後就不應該翻桌！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}}