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108.211, \"end\": 108.511, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 108.511, \"end\": 109.052, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 109.052, \"end\": 109.132, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 109.132, \"end\": 109.232, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 109.232, \"end\": 109.332, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 109.332, \"end\": 109.492, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 109.492, \"end\": 109.592, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 109.592, \"end\": 109.752, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 109.752, \"end\": 110.612, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 110.612, \"end\": 110.832, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 110.832, \"end\": 110.912, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 110.912, \"end\": 111.052, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 111.052, \"end\": 111.252, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 113.693, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 113.693, \"end\": 113.793, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 113.793, \"end\": 113.813, \"score\": 0.672}]}, {\"start\": 114.485, \"end\": 135.232, \"text\": \"看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 114.485, \"end\": 114.605, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 114.605, \"end\": 114.725, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 114.725, \"end\": 114.825, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 114.825, \"end\": 114.945, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 114.945, \"end\": 115.045, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 115.045, \"end\": 115.965, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 115.965, \"end\": 116.366, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 116.366, 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\"start\": 134.471, \"end\": 134.552, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"耐\", \"start\": 134.552, \"end\": 134.712, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 134.712, \"end\": 134.832, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 134.832, \"end\": 134.932, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 134.932, \"end\": 135.052, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 135.052, \"end\": 135.212, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 135.212, \"end\": 135.232, \"score\": 0.415}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 136.414, \"end\": 155.848, \"text\": \"你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 136.414, \"end\": 136.594, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 136.594, \"end\": 137.014, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 137.014, \"end\": 137.215, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 137.215, \"end\": 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721.701, \"end\": 721.861, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 721.861, \"end\": 722.061, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 722.061, \"end\": 722.201, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 722.201, \"end\": 722.442, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 722.442, \"end\": 722.842, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"血\", \"start\": 722.842, \"end\": 722.982, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 722.982, \"end\": 723.183, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 723.183, \"end\": 723.343, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 723.343, \"end\": 723.523, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 723.523, \"end\": 723.643, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"雨\", \"start\": 723.643, \"end\": 723.884, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 723.884, \"end\": 723.984, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 723.984, \"end\": 724.545, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"傷\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 724.545, \"end\": 724.765, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 724.765, \"end\": 725.105, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 725.105, \"end\": 725.225, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 725.225, \"end\": 725.526, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 725.526, \"end\": 725.926, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 725.926, \"end\": 726.367, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 726.367, \"end\": 726.467, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 726.467, \"end\": 726.688, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 726.688, \"end\": 726.828, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 726.828, \"end\": 726.988, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 726.988, \"end\": 727.008, \"score\": 0.166}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.008, \"end\": 727.108, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 727.108, \"end\": 727.128, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.128, \"end\": 727.148, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,208 --> 00:00:03,911\n謝謝主席李靜永主委有請請讓主委你好\n\n2\n00:00:12,642 --> 00:00:37,160\n主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清\n\n3\n00:00:43,291 --> 00:01:06,508\n來下一張謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派啊當然互相指責有人講說死人連署幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了\n\n4\n00:01:07,088 --> 00:01:24,030\n但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪\n\n5\n00:01:27,665 --> 00:01:53,813\n筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名\n\n6\n00:01:54,485 --> 00:02:15,232\n看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎\n\n7\n00:02:16,414 --> 00:02:35,848\n你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發\n\n8\n00:02:37,905 --> 00:03:04,394\n統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以\n\n9\n00:03:06,175 --> 00:03:31,656\n順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查\n\n10\n00:03:32,688 --> 00:04:00,484\n全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧\n\n11\n00:04:02,694 --> 00:04:21,403\n本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分\n\n12\n00:04:21,963 --> 00:04:38,197\n其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做doublecheck對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實\n\n13\n00:04:47,865 --> 00:05:05,518\n所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎\n\n14\n00:05:07,016 --> 00:05:31,498\n中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份那沒有道理\n\n15\n00:05:32,284 --> 00:05:52,859\n但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛\n\n16\n00:05:53,740 --> 00:06:14,237\n好所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來第二個\n\n17\n00:06:17,811 --> 00:06:36,856\n談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院\n\n18\n00:06:37,438 --> 00:07:02,850\n以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的\n\n19\n00:07:04,445 --> 00:07:32,224\n這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限\n\n20\n00:07:34,144 --> 00:07:49,230\n所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦\n\n21\n00:07:51,451 --> 00:08:17,042\n所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款\n\n22\n00:08:18,394 --> 00:08:43,226\n我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎\n\n23\n00:08:45,077 --> 00:09:03,242\n夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎\n\n24\n00:09:04,827 --> 00:09:23,859\n募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒他問了沒他沒問他一點興趣都沒有最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種\n\n25\n00:09:25,887 --> 00:09:48,737\n名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了\n\n26\n00:09:51,659 --> 00:10:07,293\n罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎\n\n27\n00:10:10,626 --> 00:10:37,911\n呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧\n\n28\n00:10:39,175 --> 00:11:03,286\n提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免\n\n29\n00:11:06,047 --> 00:11:28,298\n你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊\n\n30\n00:11:29,378 --> 00:11:42,644\n但是這個事情該說清楚主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的請中委會思考一下要修法要修法我看這是辦法吧等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重\n\n31\n00:11:58,496 --> 00:12:07,148\n好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1208\t3911\t謝謝主席 李靜永主委有請請讓主委你好\n12642\t37160\t主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清\n43291\t66508\t來 下一張 謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派啊當然互相指責有人講說死人連署 幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的 來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民 李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署 當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了\n67088\t84030\t但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪\n87665\t113813\t筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名\n114485\t135232\t看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎\n136414\t155848\t你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發\n157905\t184394\t統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以\n186175\t211656\t順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查\n212688\t240484\t全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧\n242694\t261403\t本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分\n261963\t278197\t其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實\n287865\t305518\t所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎\n307016\t331498\t中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理\n332284\t352859\t但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛\n353740\t374237\t好 所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好 謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來 第二個\n377811\t396856\t談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院\n397438\t422850\t以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的\n424445\t452224\t這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限\n454144\t469230\t所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦\n471451\t497042\t所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款\n498394\t523226\t我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎\n525077\t543242\t夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎\n544827\t563859\t募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種\n565887\t588737\t名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了\n591659\t607293\t罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎\n610626\t637911\t呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧\n639175\t663286\t提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免\n666047\t688298\t你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊\n689378\t702644\t但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的 請中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重\n718496\t727148\t好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 李靜永主委有請請讓主委你好\n主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清\n來 下一張 謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派啊當然互相指責有人講說死人連署 幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的 來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民 李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署 當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了\n但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪\n筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名\n看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎\n你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發\n統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以\n順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查\n全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧\n本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分\n其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實\n所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎\n中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理\n但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛\n好 所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好 謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來 第二個\n談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院\n以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的\n這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限\n所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦\n所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款\n我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎\n夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎\n募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種\n名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了\n罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎\n呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧\n提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免\n你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊\n但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的 請中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重\n好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.208 --> 00:03.911\n謝謝主席李靜永主委有請請讓主委你好\n\n00:12.642 --> 00:37.160\n主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清\n\n00:43.291 --> 01:06.508\n來下一張謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派啊當然互相指責有人講說死人連署幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了\n\n01:07.088 --> 01:24.030\n但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪\n\n01:27.665 --> 01:53.813\n筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名\n\n01:54.485 --> 02:15.232\n看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎\n\n02:16.414 --> 02:35.848\n你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發\n\n02:37.905 --> 03:04.394\n統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以\n\n03:06.175 --> 03:31.656\n順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查\n\n03:32.688 --> 04:00.484\n全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧\n\n04:02.694 --> 04:21.403\n本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分\n\n04:21.963 --> 04:38.197\n其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做doublecheck對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實\n\n04:47.865 --> 05:05.518\n所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎\n\n05:07.016 --> 05:31.498\n中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份那沒有道理\n\n05:32.284 --> 05:52.859\n但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛\n\n05:53.740 --> 06:14.237\n好所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來第二個\n\n06:17.811 --> 06:36.856\n談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院\n\n06:37.438 --> 07:02.850\n以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的\n\n07:04.445 --> 07:32.224\n這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限\n\n07:34.144 --> 07:49.230\n所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦\n\n07:51.451 --> 08:17.042\n所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款\n\n08:18.394 --> 08:43.226\n我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎\n\n08:45.077 --> 09:03.242\n夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎\n\n09:04.827 --> 09:23.859\n募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒他問了沒他沒問他一點興趣都沒有最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種\n\n09:25.887 --> 09:48.737\n名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了\n\n09:51.659 --> 10:07.293\n罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎\n\n10:10.626 --> 10:37.911\n呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧\n\n10:39.175 --> 11:03.286\n提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免\n\n11:06.047 --> 11:28.298\n你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊\n\n11:29.378 --> 11:42.644\n但是這個事情該說清楚主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的請中委會思考一下要修法要修法我看這是辦法吧等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重\n\n11:58.496 --> 12:07.148\n好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.208,"end":3.911,"text":"謝謝主席 李靜永主委有請請讓主委你好"},{"start":12.642,"end":37.16,"text":"主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清"},{"start":43.291,"end":66.508,"text":"來 下一張 謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派啊當然互相指責有人講說死人連署 幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的 來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民 李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署 當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了"},{"start":67.088,"end":84.03,"text":"但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪"},{"start":87.665,"end":113.813,"text":"筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名"},{"start":114.485,"end":135.232,"text":"看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎"},{"start":136.414,"end":155.848,"text":"你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發"},{"start":157.905,"end":184.394,"text":"統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以"},{"start":186.175,"end":211.656,"text":"順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查"},{"start":212.688,"end":240.484,"text":"全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧"},{"start":242.694,"end":261.403,"text":"本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分"},{"start":261.963,"end":278.197,"text":"其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實"},{"start":287.865,"end":305.518,"text":"所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎"},{"start":307.016,"end":331.498,"text":"中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理"},{"start":332.284,"end":352.859,"text":"但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛"},{"start":353.74,"end":374.237,"text":"好 所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好 謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來 第二個"},{"start":377.811,"end":396.856,"text":"談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院"},{"start":397.438,"end":422.85,"text":"以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的"},{"start":424.445,"end":452.224,"text":"這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限"},{"start":454.144,"end":469.23,"text":"所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦"},{"start":471.451,"end":497.042,"text":"所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款"},{"start":498.394,"end":523.226,"text":"我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎"},{"start":525.077,"end":543.242,"text":"夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":544.827,"end":563.859,"text":"募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種"},{"start":565.887,"end":588.737,"text":"名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了"},{"start":591.659,"end":607.293,"text":"罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":610.626,"end":637.911,"text":"呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧"},{"start":639.175,"end":663.286,"text":"提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免"},{"start":666.047,"end":688.298,"text":"你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊"},{"start":689.378,"end":702.644,"text":"但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的 請中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重"},{"start":718.496,"end":727.148,"text":"好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時48分）謝謝主席。有請李進勇主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。"],["李主任委員進勇：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一次全國大罷免史無前例，基本上也空前混亂，社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續加溫之中。你作為中選會的主委，籌辦這一次選務一定是特別辛苦，這我們都願意理解，所以今天針對相關的一些議題，跟你做一些探討。第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則，我們要在委員會這邊做一個釐清。","我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣態，互相指責，有人講死人連署、幽靈連署，這張簡報滿有意思，是來自於臺東，唐太宗也來連署，李世民、李隆基還有衛子夫，這都是一些古人連署。這樣一張連署，當然團體裡面就把它篩選掉了，我們藉這樣一張連署來延伸幾個問題。如果在接下來的連署，不管是哪一區，我們先不要講哪一區，出現了這樣子筆跡相同，但是名字顯然虛構、資料有嚴重偽誤的一個情況之下，這算不算偽造文書？有沒有犯罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：筆跡？對不起，剛剛我沒有聽清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：我說筆跡都很像，這顯然是同一人所為嘛！他亂寫一通，不管這個人是基於什麼動機，對不對？但他做了這樣一個行為，該當何罪？還是沒有關係，隨便？"],["李主任委員進勇：他簽的名，他自己簽的名？"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！就是這樣，就以這一張來講，顯然是完全虛構的資料，他填在連署書上，把它交出去了，當然在查對之後，就被篩選掉了。"],["李主任委員進勇：他也不是簽自己的名。"],["牛委員煦庭：看起來也不是，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：他簽唐太宗。"],["牛委員煦庭：或者是亂簽，對不對？狀況是什麼？我只問這個樣態你是可以處理，還是不能處理？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗，也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我要問你怎麼處理啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個還是偽造文書。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是偽造文書？"],["李主任委員進勇：我個人的看法。"],["牛委員煦庭：真的？確定？那你們有能耐、本事去追查嗎？你們有能力去追查嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：而且我們也沒有責任去追查。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們也沒有責任去追查？你剛剛義正辭嚴講這是偽造文書，但沒有責任追查？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果他是偽造文書，我們就告發。"],["牛委員煦庭：要告發，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問，現在很多區可能或多或少都有這樣的狀況，有些地方有，有些地方沒有，那你們是不是有一個統一的機制會去做統一的告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：統一的機制？我們現在都是地方報上來之後，經過我們委員會的審查，通過了、確認了，我們就告發了。"],["牛委員煦庭：就會告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：從地方選委會告發，還是從中選會告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：從中選會。"],["牛委員煦庭：從中選會告發。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席提醒你，這樣的事情可能很多，一定要嚴查嚴辦。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況，其實都要延伸出來我的個資有沒有外洩啊！有沒有什麼名冊等等，不管藍綠都可能會有這樣的狀況。所以順著這個我往下講，現在二階連署送進來之後，是不是進入所謂勾稽的程序？也就是說，所有連署書都要跑戶政系統，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：是吧？我們確定一下遊戲規則，每一張都會跑，對不對？因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格，他有沒有設籍滿4個月，身分證字號對不對，戶籍地址是否正確，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是不是要跟系統來做介接？會全面查核，還是只是抽查？"],["李主任委員進勇：全面。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定是全面？"],["李主任委員進勇：每一張。"],["牛委員煦庭：每一張、每一張都要key，對不對？都要進去系統來做處理。這樣子出來之後，當然會篩選掉一大部分，如果是錯的、假的，有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉。但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況，當然不會是那個古人連署，很有可能是大量筆跡相同的狀況，所以同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態，對不對？因為只要不是本人處理就是偽造文書，是吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：本人簽名……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，不是本人簽名就是偽造文書，你看像這一張，這個當然是比較好笑，都是古人連署。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是偽造文書。所以第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書，那是該做、要做的，我們已經把它釐清了。是第二階段，現在所謂查對的部分，其實就是我們的選務機關在做查對的時候，看到了筆跡相似，很有可能是抄寫的狀況，所以機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：會有這個機制。"],["牛委員煦庭：會有這樣的機制，本席在這邊就很認真的建議，這一次，因為選區的數量非常多，而且狀況空前混亂，而且大家高度質疑，這都是現在的社會現實。所以為了解決這樣的事情，重塑中選會的公信力，我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會，尊重地方的需求，因為我到底要寄多少的查對單，我要用什麼樣的標準，大家可能有各自的判斷，有可能要反映各選區的狀況跟焦慮，對不對？中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會按照法律的規定，法律怎麼規定，我們怎麼執行……"],["牛委員煦庭：以現行法……"],["李主任委員進勇：法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑，這個查對人員根據你的專業……"],["牛委員煦庭：只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑……"],["李主任委員進勇：有嫌疑，你就可以寄。"],["牛委員煦庭：就可以寄，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：並不是說沒有嫌疑，沒有嫌疑你寄那麼多幹嘛……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不能亂寄，這個我同意，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：像基隆那一次要寄2萬5,000份，沒有道理嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證，也就是說筆跡相似或者是大量印章等等，是不是就可以符合嫌疑的部分？"],["李主任委員進勇：對，所以我們跟地方強調，你不能夠要求定量的去寄發，不可以，沒有所謂定量……"],["牛委員煦庭：但是同樣的，也不會有數量的上限，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：當然，要有嫌疑。"],["牛委員煦庭：但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情？"],["李主任委員進勇：要有嫌疑。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以你也不會下政策指導，說不能超過多少量，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：意思是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清，讓大家後面做參考，這是有關於連署跟查對。我們是希望從嚴，因為大家現在都在傳個資外洩，那是一個大的問題，希望大家好好面對。","第二個，談一下募款的問題。現在很多人要罷免，因為法無明文，所以到底是可以募款還是不能募款？主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：法律沒有規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有規定？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是可以的嗎？你的意思是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個不歸我們管。"],["牛委員煦庭：不歸你們管？歸誰管？"],["李主任委員進勇：政治獻金是內政部跟監察院。"],["牛委員煦庭：以你目前的了解，你也算是法學專家，以你目前的了解。"],["李主任委員進勇：內政部跟監察院。"],["牛委員煦庭：以你目前的了解，如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不方便幫主管機關來做答復。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答復啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：不方便、不方便、不方便。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪裡不方便？你要不要說明一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為越權。"],["牛委員煦庭：越權？"],["李主任委員進勇：越權，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：法律就是法律，法律的詮釋就是法律的詮釋啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：萬一講錯了不好意思。"],["牛委員煦庭：萬一講錯了會不好意思？真的假的？現在這個狀況是，政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之個人或團體無償提供動產、不動產、不當對價之給付、債務之免除其他經濟利益，這是政治獻金法白紙黑字的規定。基本上符合啦，競選跟其他政治活動的捐款，其實都符合，應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍！但是政治獻金法有規定，收受政治獻金者，以政黨、政治團體及擬參選人為限所以其實罷免狀況是非常特殊的，因為理論上它是政治相關活動，但是參與罷免者，不管是被罷方或者是發起方，都不是政黨、政治團體跟擬參選人，對不對？那就出現問題了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情，結果你說你不方便詮釋，那不是很奇怪嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：由主管機關他們，權責由他們來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：由主管機關來詮釋，是不是？不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情，我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光，就是發生在我們桃園，對不對？桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是領銜人或者是他有其他的身分，但是他就以什麼六區的名義、什麼大聯盟，就開始對外來進行募款。我只希望這件事情走到最後，標準要一致，要嘛就是可以募款，要嘛就是不能募款，其實就是這樣而已，對不對？我希望不要出現雙標的行為。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想權責機關他們……"],["牛委員煦庭：這東西明明不是無法可管，而且是該管、可以管，因為我剛剛已經講政治獻金法，但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚，你說你不是主管機關，所以我很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球！今天內政部有來嗎？沒有，因為今天是業報，沒關係，我們後面還有時間再來討論，但是我是希望這件事情，你們要操辦選務，這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力、跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯，所以我不希望主委是用「不是主管機關，我怕越權」，就逃避這樣的問題，你們要商量一下，這到底應該怎麼辦？可以嗎？募款的部分，總要給社會大眾一個說法。"],["李主任委員進勇：權責機關如果就這個問題，他們有跟我們要求提供意見，基於機關之間彼此的溝通，我們會提供。"],["牛委員煦庭：你提供了沒？它問了沒？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：它沒問？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：它一點興趣都沒有，最好就遊走在灰色地帶，把這種名為罷免、搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我相信它沒有定見、它沒有定見。"],["牛委員煦庭：是這樣嗎？沒有定見？"],["李主任委員進勇：它沒有定見。"],["牛委員煦庭：滿危險的。","好，最後一個，1分鐘的問題，不好意思，主席。我們選舉是有說明會，對不對？罷免也有說明會，可是選舉的說明會，規則好像比較詳細，也就是說，參選人超過三分之二以上同意，就可以進行交叉詰問，變成辯論會，罷免呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：罷免沒有這個規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有這個規定，對不對？所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：政見發表會。"],["牛委員煦庭：只有發表會，沒有辯論會。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會，也不行對不對？因為於法無據。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有這個規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委你覺得這樣合理嗎？主委，你也是老民進黨人，老民進黨人很多都是辯論好手，對不對？政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚。"],["李主任委員進勇：民間可能會有興趣。"],["牛委員煦庭：民間可能會有興趣？好，我希望民間有興趣啦，但是我要藉這個機會在這邊提醒，選舉應該要辯論，罷免更應該要辯論，因為罷免事涉有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題，當然應該要用說清楚、講明白的方式，讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現，我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：提供充分的資訊給選民，我想這是每一個當事人都應該要的。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是有必要的，對不對？之前你做業務報告時我也提過，我說我們選舉公辦政見會太少了，每一場選舉的公辦政見會就只有一場，而且還可以愛來不來，對不對？所以到了最後走著走著，選舉越來越畸形，每個人只要掛看板、掃市場，結果該發表政見很少發表政見。我希望臺灣的選舉慢慢走向公費選舉，公費選舉、公費公投、公費罷免，才能避免財力的不均等，造成選務的不公平，造成競爭的不公平，應該是這樣說。所以怎麼去做？其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次，每一次的選舉，我們應該增加公辦政見會跟公辦辯論會的場次，罷免也當然應該要有辯論會的機制，而不是只流於形式，以前反正只是說明、說明，也沒幾個案例，史無前例，我不希望後面還有惡例！但是這個事情該說清楚，主委不反對，資訊呈現要對稱，這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的，請中選會思考一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：要修法。"],["牛委員煦庭：要修法？我看它只是辦法，罷免辯論應該是辦法。"],["李主任委員進勇：辯論要修法。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考，但是主委會不會贊成這樣的方向？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們會尊重？好啦，希望罷免選舉這樣子搞下去，全國血流成河之餘，不要傷害了中選會的公信力就好了，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝牛煦庭召委，我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}}