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\"現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 463.784, \"end\": 463.964, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 463.964, \"end\": 464.124, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 464.124, \"end\": 464.305, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 464.305, \"end\": 464.425, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 464.425, \"end\": 465.105, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"罷\"}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 465.105, \"end\": 465.906, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 465.906, \"end\": 466.046, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.046, \"end\": 466.386, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 466.386, \"end\": 466.546, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.546, \"end\": 466.647, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 487.443, \"end\": 487.744, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 487.744, \"end\": 488.064, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 488.064, \"end\": 489.265, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 489.265, \"end\": 489.505, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 489.505, \"end\": 489.625, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 489.625, \"end\": 489.645, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 489.645, \"end\": 489.885, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 489.885, \"end\": 490.366, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 490.366, \"end\": 490.566, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"名\", \"start\": 490.566, \"end\": 490.586, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 493.359, \"end\": 496.528, \"text\": \"公民選民的意願合理嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 493.359, \"end\": 493.62, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 493.62, \"end\": 494.222, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 494.222, \"end\": 494.542, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 494.542, \"end\": 495.305, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 495.305, \"end\": 496.328, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 496.328, \"end\": 496.508, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 496.508, \"end\": 496.528, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 497.982, \"end\": 522.686, \"text\": \"就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 497.982, \"end\": 498.122, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 498.122, \"end\": 498.463, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 498.463, \"end\": 498.563, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 498.563, \"end\": 499.444, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 514.799, \"end\": 515.319, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 515.319, \"end\": 515.519, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 515.519, \"end\": 515.679, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 515.679, \"end\": 515.88, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 515.88, \"end\": 516.58, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 516.58, \"end\": 516.7, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 516.7, \"end\": 516.861, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 516.861, \"end\": 517.041, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 517.041, \"end\": 517.261, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 517.261, \"end\": 517.802, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 517.802, \"end\": 517.922, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 517.922, \"end\": 518.482, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 518.482, \"end\": 518.883, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 518.883, \"end\": 519.403, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"簽\"}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 519.403, \"end\": 519.703, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"籍\", \"start\": 519.703, \"end\": 519.804, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 519.804, \"end\": 519.944, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 519.944, \"end\": 520.084, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 520.084, \"end\": 520.204, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 520.204, \"end\": 520.384, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 520.384, \"end\": 521.245, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 521.245, \"end\": 521.685, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 521.685, \"end\": 521.946, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 521.946, \"end\": 522.126, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 522.126, \"end\": 522.466, \"score\": 0.941}, 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0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 525.952, \"end\": 526.173, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 526.173, \"end\": 526.633, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 526.633, \"end\": 526.893, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"志\", \"start\": 526.893, \"end\": 527.434, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 527.434, \"end\": 527.675, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 527.675, \"end\": 527.995, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 527.995, \"end\": 528.936, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"壓\"}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 528.936, \"end\": 529.157, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 529.157, \"end\": 529.597, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 529.597, \"end\": 529.817, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 529.817, \"end\": 529.958, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 529.958, \"end\": 530.198, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"志\", 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 556.296, \"end\": 556.436, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 556.436, \"end\": 556.616, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 556.616, \"end\": 556.716, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 556.716, \"end\": 556.876, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"玩\", \"start\": 556.876, \"end\": 557.056, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 557.056, \"end\": 557.256, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 557.256, \"end\": 557.336, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 557.336, \"end\": 557.577, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 557.577, \"end\": 557.677, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 557.677, \"end\": 557.697, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 557.697, \"end\": 557.877, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 557.877, \"end\": 558.037, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"迫\", \"start\": 558.037, \"end\": 558.217, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 558.217, \"end\": 558.357, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"玩\", \"start\": 558.357, \"end\": 558.537, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 558.537, \"end\": 559.217, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 559.217, \"end\": 559.357, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 559.357, \"end\": 559.377, \"score\": 0.013}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 561.191, \"end\": 576.424, \"text\": \"我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 561.191, \"end\": 562.392, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 562.392, \"end\": 562.893, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 562.893, \"end\": 563.774, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 563.774, \"end\": 564.374, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 564.374, \"end\": 564.494, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 577.145, \"end\": 577.465, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 577.465, \"end\": 577.866, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 577.866, \"end\": 578.066, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 578.066, \"end\": 578.686, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 578.686, \"end\": 579.187, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 579.187, \"end\": 579.467, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 579.467, \"end\": 579.667, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 579.667, \"end\": 579.867, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 579.867, \"end\": 580.127, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 580.127, \"end\": 580.347, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"委\", 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583.77, \"end\": 584.37, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 584.37, \"end\": 584.811, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 584.811, \"end\": 585.211, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 585.211, \"end\": 585.451, \"score\": 0.604}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 585.451, \"end\": 585.651, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 585.651, \"end\": 585.831, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 585.831, \"end\": 586.071, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 586.071, \"end\": 586.212, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 586.212, \"end\": 586.392, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 586.392, \"end\": 586.532, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 586.532, \"end\": 586.652, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 586.652, \"end\": 587.232, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 587.232, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.718, \"end\": 595.938, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 595.938, \"end\": 596.179, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 596.179, \"end\": 596.739, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 596.739, \"end\": 596.899, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 596.899, \"end\": 597.059, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 597.059, \"end\": 597.239, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 597.239, \"end\": 597.54, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 597.54, \"end\": 597.76, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 597.76, \"end\": 598.14, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 598.14, \"end\": 598.3, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 598.3, \"end\": 598.32, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 598.32, \"end\": 598.44, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 598.44, 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\"end\": 639.07, \"text\": \"我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛 對不對我一樣是良善的態度 但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話 社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了 晚來剛發生的時候\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 630.527, \"end\": 630.927, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 630.927, \"end\": 631.007, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 631.007, \"end\": 631.167, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 631.167, \"end\": 631.407, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 631.407, \"end\": 631.687, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 631.687, \"end\": 631.927, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 631.927, \"end\": 632.027, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 632.027, \"end\": 632.348, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 632.348, \"end\": 632.508, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 632.508, \"end\": 632.648, \"score\": 0.954}, 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\"text\": \"這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 658.476, \"end\": 658.696, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 658.696, \"end\": 658.916, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 658.916, \"end\": 659.196, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 659.196, \"end\": 659.436, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 659.436, \"end\": 659.656, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 659.656, \"end\": 660.137, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 660.137, \"end\": 660.637, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 660.637, \"end\": 660.777, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 660.777, \"end\": 660.937, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 660.937, \"end\": 661.077, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": 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00:01:33,049\n我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧\n\n5\n00:01:35,068 --> 00:01:40,869\n結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響\n\n6\n00:01:59,833 --> 00:02:19,264\n好所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署\n\n7\n00:02:26,049 --> 00:02:51,752\n公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容\n\n8\n00:02:53,015 --> 00:03:12,350\n那中選會有沒有告發中選會也是一致的都會告發好都會告發但是這次中選會最大的不同是過去所有的告發有關聯署告發都是在聯署結束之後\n\n9\n00:03:13,912 --> 00:03:33,834\n來予以告罰都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現因為最後經過查對有死人連署有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰\n\n10\n00:03:35,322 --> 00:03:56,918\n不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中\n\n11\n00:03:57,859 --> 00:04:17,935\n而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎\n\n12\n00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:38,281\n我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点\n\n13\n00:04:38,541 --> 00:04:42,983\n第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了\n\n14\n00:04:56,889 --> 00:05:07,978\n那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法\n\n15\n00:05:15,223 --> 00:05:30,324\n過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點\n\n16\n00:05:33,127 --> 00:05:42,177\n我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免\n\n17\n00:05:52,947 --> 00:06:09,556\n或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了\n\n18\n00:06:10,336 --> 00:06:27,303\n那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後\n\n19\n00:06:28,163 --> 00:06:39,756\n後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外來主委另外請教一下這個領銜人\n\n20\n00:06:43,120 --> 00:07:12,007\n的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團\n\n21\n00:07:13,067 --> 00:07:40,032\n但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊\n\n22\n00:07:43,784 --> 00:08:10,586\n現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名\n\n23\n00:08:13,359 --> 00:08:16,528\n公民選民的意願合理嗎\n\n24\n00:08:17,982 --> 00:08:42,686\n就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度\n\n25\n00:08:43,669 --> 00:08:51,700\n有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎\n\n26\n00:08:53,072 --> 00:09:19,377\n所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎\n\n27\n00:09:21,191 --> 00:09:36,424\n我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方\n\n28\n00:09:37,145 --> 00:10:01,903\n其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長\n\n29\n00:10:02,663 --> 00:10:08,608\n我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔\n\n30\n00:10:30,527 --> 00:10:39,070\n我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛對不對我一樣是良善的態度但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了晚來剛發生的時候\n\n31\n00:10:58,476 --> 00:11:14,185\n這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治\n\n32\n00:11:21,843 --> 00:11:37,579\n什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3188\t8026\t好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請\n14791\t41044\t主委好主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為\n42798\t68598\t這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為\n69814\t93049\t我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧\n95068\t100869\t結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響\n119833\t139264\t好所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署\n146049\t171752\t公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容\n173015\t192350\t那中選會有沒有告發中選會也是一致的都會告發好都會告發但是這次中選會最大的不同是過去所有的告發有關聯署告發都是在聯署結束之後\n193912\t213834\t來予以告罰都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現因為最後經過查對有死人連署有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰\n215322\t236918\t不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中\n237859\t257935\t而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎\n261840\t278281\t我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点\n278541\t282983\t第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了\n296889\t307978\t那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法\n315223\t330324\t過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點\n333127\t342177\t我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免\n352947\t369556\t或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了\n370336\t387303\t那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後\n388163\t399756\t後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外來 主委另外請教一下這個領銜人\n403120\t432007\t的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團\n433067\t460032\t但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊\n463784\t490586\t現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名\n493359\t496528\t公民選民的意願合理嗎\n497982\t522686\t就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度\n523669\t531700\t有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎\n533072\t559377\t所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎\n561191\t576424\t我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方\n577145\t601903\t其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長\n602663\t608608\t我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔\n630527\t639070\t我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛 對不對我一樣是良善的態度 但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話 社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了 晚來剛發生的時候\n658476\t674185\t這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治\n681843\t697579\t什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果\n","txt":"好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請\n主委好主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為\n這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為\n我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧\n結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響\n好所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署\n公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容\n那中選會有沒有告發中選會也是一致的都會告發好都會告發但是這次中選會最大的不同是過去所有的告發有關聯署告發都是在聯署結束之後\n來予以告罰都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現因為最後經過查對有死人連署有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰\n不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中\n而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎\n我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点\n第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了\n那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法\n過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點\n我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免\n或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了\n那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後\n後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外來 主委另外請教一下這個領銜人\n的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團\n但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊\n現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名\n公民選民的意願合理嗎\n就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度\n有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎\n所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎\n我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方\n其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長\n我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔\n我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛 對不對我一樣是良善的態度 但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話 社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了 晚來剛發生的時候\n這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治\n什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.188 --> 00:08.026\n好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請\n\n00:14.791 --> 00:41.044\n主委好主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為\n\n00:42.798 --> 01:08.598\n這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為\n\n01:09.814 --> 01:33.049\n我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧\n\n01:35.068 --> 01:40.869\n結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響\n\n01:59.833 --> 02:19.264\n好所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署\n\n02:26.049 --> 02:51.752\n公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容\n\n02:53.015 --> 03:12.350\n那中選會有沒有告發中選會也是一致的都會告發好都會告發但是這次中選會最大的不同是過去所有的告發有關聯署告發都是在聯署結束之後\n\n03:13.912 --> 03:33.834\n來予以告罰都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現因為最後經過查對有死人連署有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰\n\n03:35.322 --> 03:56.918\n不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中\n\n03:57.859 --> 04:17.935\n而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎\n\n04:21.840 --> 04:38.281\n我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点\n\n04:38.541 --> 04:42.983\n第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了\n\n04:56.889 --> 05:07.978\n那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法\n\n05:15.223 --> 05:30.324\n過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點\n\n05:33.127 --> 05:42.177\n我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免\n\n05:52.947 --> 06:09.556\n或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了\n\n06:10.336 --> 06:27.303\n那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後\n\n06:28.163 --> 06:39.756\n後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外來主委另外請教一下這個領銜人\n\n06:43.120 --> 07:12.007\n的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團\n\n07:13.067 --> 07:40.032\n但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊\n\n07:43.784 --> 08:10.586\n現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名\n\n08:13.359 --> 08:16.528\n公民選民的意願合理嗎\n\n08:17.982 --> 08:42.686\n就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度\n\n08:43.669 --> 08:51.700\n有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎\n\n08:53.072 --> 09:19.377\n所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎\n\n09:21.191 --> 09:36.424\n我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方\n\n09:37.145 --> 10:01.903\n其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長\n\n10:02.663 --> 10:08.608\n我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔\n\n10:30.527 --> 10:39.070\n我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛對不對我一樣是良善的態度但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了晚來剛發生的時候\n\n10:58.476 --> 11:14.185\n這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治\n\n11:21.843 --> 11:37.579\n什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.188,"end":8.026,"text":"好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請"},{"start":14.791,"end":41.044,"text":"主委好主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為"},{"start":42.798,"end":68.598,"text":"這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為"},{"start":69.814,"end":93.049,"text":"我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧"},{"start":95.068,"end":100.869,"text":"結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響"},{"start":119.833,"end":139.264,"text":"好所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署"},{"start":146.049,"end":171.752,"text":"公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容"},{"start":173.015,"end":192.35,"text":"那中選會有沒有告發中選會也是一致的都會告發好都會告發但是這次中選會最大的不同是過去所有的告發有關聯署告發都是在聯署結束之後"},{"start":193.912,"end":213.834,"text":"來予以告罰都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現因為最後經過查對有死人連署有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰"},{"start":215.322,"end":236.918,"text":"不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中"},{"start":237.859,"end":257.935,"text":"而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎"},{"start":261.84,"end":278.281,"text":"我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点"},{"start":278.541,"end":282.983,"text":"第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了"},{"start":296.889,"end":307.978,"text":"那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法"},{"start":315.223,"end":330.324,"text":"過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點"},{"start":333.127,"end":342.177,"text":"我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免"},{"start":352.947,"end":369.556,"text":"或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了"},{"start":370.336,"end":387.303,"text":"那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後"},{"start":388.163,"end":399.756,"text":"後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外來 主委另外請教一下這個領銜人"},{"start":403.12,"end":432.007,"text":"的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團"},{"start":433.067,"end":460.032,"text":"但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊"},{"start":463.784,"end":490.586,"text":"現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名"},{"start":493.359,"end":496.528,"text":"公民選民的意願合理嗎"},{"start":497.982,"end":522.686,"text":"就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度"},{"start":523.669,"end":531.7,"text":"有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎"},{"start":533.072,"end":559.377,"text":"所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎"},{"start":561.191,"end":576.424,"text":"我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方"},{"start":577.145,"end":601.903,"text":"其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長"},{"start":602.663,"end":608.608,"text":"我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔"},{"start":630.527,"end":639.07,"text":"我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛 對不對我一樣是良善的態度 但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話 社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了 晚來剛發生的時候"},{"start":658.476,"end":674.185,"text":"這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治"},{"start":681.843,"end":697.579,"text":"什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時25分）謝謝主席，請李進勇李主委。"],["主席：李主委，有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好。主委，你的選舉經驗很豐富，而現在司法單位針對連署，不管是死人連署或偽造連署，正在進行大規模偵辦，不管是在過去的選舉也好或現在的罷免也好，會不會影響選民的行為？"],["李主任委員進勇：這部分我們不便評論，因為現在罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段，可以說是不同陣營的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思是說，當現在司法單位在大規模調查的時候，甚至有約詢或是羈押，會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署的人改變他的行為？"],["李主任委員進勇：我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場，在這個時間我們儘量不對……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以選務機構的立場就是以……"],["李主任委員進勇：不對非選務的事項來妄做評論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以作為選務機關是以不干擾選舉及罷免的最後結果為最高指導原則，對吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：結果我們沒有辦法負責，過程我們要負責。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，不能去影響嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：過程我們要負責。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，過程不能去影響，我講的對不對？您同意嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們完全按照法律的規定來執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，我講的原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果，應該以這樣的原則……"],["李主任委員進勇：根本就不應該去在乎，遑論影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我講的沒有錯。","這一次檢調單位說他們為什麼這麼大規模地去做調查，主要是因為告發，我想請問主委，過去我們說過，罷免有連署、公投有連署、總統和副總統選舉也有連署，而過去有沒有死亡跟偽造連署？也都有，或多或少也都有，有的也很多，譬如說當時郭台銘有5,271份包含死人連署及偽造連署，當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容，而中選會有沒有告發？中選會也是一致地都會告發，但是這次中選會最大的不同是，過去所有的連署告發都是在連署結束之後予以告發，都是在整個的連署結束之後發現，因為最後經過查對有死亡連署、有偽造連署，全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告發，有些甚至在選舉之後再予以告發。我現在看到資料，不管是從108年開始或者是去年，去年有基隆市的市長選舉，你們的原則都是一致的，請問一下，今年為什麼不一致？也就是說這個連署還在進行中，而中選會決定在進行中、在進行式裡面就直接去告發，我不曉得這樣跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由？難道你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我很簡單地講三點理由，第一點理由，根據刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條規定，「公務員因執行職務知有犯罪嫌疑者，應為告發。」這是職務上的告發……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去也是如此啊，過去也有告發啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以這個告發是合法的，這是第一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這個不成理由，因為過去都是在連署之後做告發。"],["李主任委員進勇：接下來很重要，第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊，因為2月3號開始送件以後，民間的告發就陸續呈現了，不但是這樣，檢調機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來了14次要我們提供這些查對的資料，也就是說，查對發現的可能違法，範圍在擴大……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去檢調有沒有在連署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有這麼大規模，這次是大規模，所以這是第二點，因為規模很大了，我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去，這是第二點。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，第三點呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：第三點，我們如果是愛惜這個制度，不希望有太多的違法事情發生，在它剛發生的時候，就把它堵住……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這個也不成為理由，你過去……"],["李主任委員進勇：就把它堵住，不堵住的話，它會一直蔓延。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才提出來了，過去這麼多的罷免或者公投連署都有，難道過去中選會不愛惜這個連署制度嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以我剛剛提出了這三點。"],["王委員鴻薇：你擠出了三點理由，唯有第二點理由，你說因為是大規模的關係，但是我剛才也跟大家說了，當時郭台銘參選總統，他的規模也很大，五千多份，不可謂之不多，但是你們是採取在整個罷免連署成立之後才做告發，所以這一次確實有非常非常奇怪、完全不一樣的標準。另外……"],["李主任委員進勇：這次的確很奇怪，的確是非常奇怪。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，另外請教一下，領銜人的退團，當然現在很多討論都集中在罷免吳思瑤委員的張克晉先生，現在罷團也根據選罷法相關規定，他們就去要求提議人、通知提議人；另外一個罷團是罷免國民黨的立委，就是罷羅明才委員，這個領銜人是對媒體表示他想要退團，但他退不了，因為這個規定非常嚴格，大家都知道這個嚴格得不得了，現在看起來除非是死掉了，不然的話就要很辛苦地要去獲得第一階段提議人二分之一的書面同意，他的理由是說因為他本身被架空了，所以很多罷團做的事情他很擔心，如果有什麼違法的事情，最後他都有責任。","回過頭來，以這兩個案例來講，現在很多罷團都說他們的連署成績非常好，比如說有高達140%、有人說160%，未來還說有200%！也就是說，整個罷免最後的結果有這麼多萬份，但是因為一位領銜人，可能要否定全部3、4萬份或5萬名公民、選民的意願，合理嗎？就像主委剛剛所講很珍惜這個制度，但是我們現在因為領銜人退團難度之高，所以即便連署4萬份、5萬份出來之後，可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由，我們剛剛講了各式各樣的理由，他想要退但他不能退，而且如同剛才講的，他連遷出戶籍都不能退，所以這樣的制度有沒有問題？也就是以一個人的意願、意志可能強壓4、5萬人的意志，那這樣子是民主嗎？主委，這樣的規定……還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有其他解釋的空間，我必須要很清楚地講，因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是未來是不是應該做一些修法？如同我剛剛講，一個人去決定4、5萬人的意志，我一個人不玩了，4、5萬人也要被迫不玩了，合理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我並不反對做這樣子的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這一次很大規模，我們發現整個選罷法關於罷免的部分有太多太多漏洞、太多太多不合理的地方，你身為中選會主委，我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立。像我剛剛所講的，我覺得非常不合理的是，過去的標準在這一次全部推翻，你認為這次是不是大規模、這次人數是不是很多？這完全是行政解釋的空間！"],["李主任委員進勇：大家共同珍惜這個民主的成果。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啊，所以過去不要珍惜嗎？而且我也講說，中選會也本於職權去告發了，當時告發的時間點也一定是針對，不要因為告發而去影響最後整個的連署結果，對不對？所以我覺得這一點……我在這邊都是非常良善的建議。"],["李主任委員進勇：我感覺得到，但我也是一樣良善。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們的選罷法裡面該做修正，這次無論你怎麼修都沒有辦法適用於這次的罷免，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我一樣是良善的態度。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我覺得基於臺灣民主政治的健康發展，我覺得要做全面性的修法。"],["李主任委員進勇：但是如果我們把中選會告發時間早晚過度強調的話，社會會有一個錯誤的印象，以為慢慢來就好了，假設慢慢來的話，在剛發生的時候，這些證據跑掉了怎麼辦？"],["王委員鴻薇：這個應該也要有一致的規定，而不是中選會的主委覺得要在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發，這是法制嗎？這不是法制！"],["李主任委員進勇：這是委員會決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：不能取決於主委一個人的感受，如果能夠取決於主委一個人感受，這不叫民主、這也不叫法制。"],["李主任委員進勇：而且是經過合議決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫合議決定？"],["李主任委員進勇：就是我們委員會討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是你們委員會討論，突然就這樣子把它改了，我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大污點，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想大家共同珍惜民主的成果。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","下一位我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}}