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00:01:18,609\n你的分業認知呢不一定因為他有參流的一個時間嘛對好就是說當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說台灣沒有萊豬你只是檢驗不出來他源頭是有未來的因為我們法是允許的這是第二個我要跟部長講的\n\n5\n00:01:19,969 --> 00:01:49,158\n那多數台灣人是不想要吃萊豬為什麼因為我看過很多影片啊那個民進黨的委員啊包括柯董昭啊什麼蕭美香當時他們都一直喊我們都要零減豬我們絕不吃萊就在表示為什麼他們在反映民意民意是不想要吃萊不管他的這個知識或想法是從以來這是這是一個沒有辦法改變的這個部分但是這次非常諷刺的是這一次是從\n\n6\n00:01:49,898 --> 00:01:57,084\n澳豬澳洲來的豬驗出來但是長期那個美豬到目前並沒有驗出對嗎是不是情況是這樣這次驗出來是從澳洲進口的豬以前所有檢查過的都沒有嘛就這次破功但是是從這個我沒有在談法律啦我知道江署長你談的是什麼但是我不懂啊如果官方說這是合格的\n\n7\n00:02:16,258 --> 00:02:26,702\n然後不需要有流向的告知那為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把他銷毀呢我沒有看過這種場景我一生沒有見識過這個場景官方說你OK然後你出來銷毀又道歉這個發生什麼事呢第一個謝謝委員我簡單簡單的回答食安優先這個永遠都是我們不變的真理但是我們會依法嘛依法就是用\n\n8\n00:02:42,348 --> 00:03:06,933\n你不覺得很奇怪依法啊OK啊為什麼業者那麼害怕那我們尊重業者自主的一個做法跟要求但是我們一切都是按照規定來做那食安不能靠業者自律嘛但是我們有守護安全的把關嘛那部長我再問一件事為什麼不公布我當然有看到這個江署長的理由為什麼不\n\n9\n00:03:07,593 --> 00:03:32,442\n國人沒有權利知道我吃的東西有沒有來嗎這是第一個你不公佈第二個我要再講蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦的說教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的一個指令就是說所有的萊豬不准進校園那你現在碰到這個狀況你怎麼知道他不進校園你能保證嗎那還是說他們以前的承諾你要翻頁不管了反正是已經換過人當總統了\n\n10\n00:03:34,864 --> 00:03:45,519\n怎麼辦?要不要進校園?我們都一體適用的啦那是不是這個部分請署長回答一下你還沒有就任,但是蔡政府承諾過啊還是同一個執政黨啊謝謝委員這邊做簡單的說明就是說\n\n11\n00:03:51,861 --> 00:04:11,779\n萊克多巴胺在我們的用藥裡面動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種所以每一種其實都經過了食品安全風險的評估下來定下來的所以定完之後它如果是合於標準的我們依法上面對於它在揭露其實對廠商的不利你信上任然後你依法去做事\n\n12\n00:04:12,339 --> 00:04:20,307\n我這次沒有就是但是我要告訴你過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣請部長您好好看這張表左邊這張表圖是2022年行政院的圖卡他為了澄清事實請看中間那個點因為網路說很多國家的萊豬進來但是他說請看紅字只有美國萊豬會進口到\n\n13\n00:04:35,663 --> 00:04:42,213\n台灣然後他還做了圖卡行政院的圖卡加拿大出口的豬肉不函來紐西蘭愁沒進口澳洲國內生產幾乎不用來進口總量是微乎其微但美國有數字好\n\n14\n00:04:51,065 --> 00:05:06,103\n就是說這是行政院寫的圖卡結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來澳洲也進來那我可不可以說這四年前五年前行政院說謊說謊成性這個是行政院的圖卡為了查核事實啊\n\n15\n00:05:08,342 --> 00:05:22,030\n部長你有看過這個圖齁?也是一樣喔,我告訴你不要給我想要翻頁喔還是同一個黨在執政喔?委員這邊我可以做簡單的回覆因為全世界可以使用萊豬萊特多巴胺在當年有2026國?\n\n16\n00:05:24,712 --> 00:05:42,143\n20個國家領福的部分是有6個國家其中呢來到台灣台灣我們進口裡面可以允許他進口的國家裡面豬肉的其實是有6個國家那等一下停下來包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國你給我們事實但是我追究的是政治承諾這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的而且他還是為了說網友的一些不實的傳和他用事實來講這張圖卡你可以去查\n\n17\n00:05:54,151 --> 00:06:11,496\n他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊你再看右邊你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦啊為茶廠不給進口就是說需要我國派員赴美茶廠後才可以進口那我想問一下請問石耀署你有沒有去澳洲茶廠這邊跟委員做進度報告因為澳洲是在\n\n18\n00:06:19,727 --> 00:06:46,214\n100年以前在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了他已經約定俗成的歷史上他就是已經是既然是安全的你現在事務官你沒辦法回答我們未來可以我們未來可以機器人安排蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒茶場不能進來那為什麼美豬要茶場那個澳洲不用茶場呢我們去查我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去茶場的紀錄啊沒有啊但是他說的啊\n\n19\n00:06:47,274 --> 00:06:57,264\n說得非常清楚當年是這樣子的那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事美國一定會把美牛美豬當作談判的籌碼就非關稅貿易障礙的部分那美國會跟我們講為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查償為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查償為什麼雙重標準為什麼在國際雙重標準這個一定是弱點談判的弱點\n\n20\n00:07:12,254 --> 00:07:23,978\n謝謝委員的提醒因為我們整體對於兩國國一國之間的貿易在我們新的規定之前它就已經是正常在進口的一個狀況所以你看你國內是騙人的嘛你國內明明告訴我們只有美國來都會進口現在你看到澳洲來不管你合不合格就是跟\n\n21\n00:07:35,081 --> 00:07:51,167\n圖卡不一樣,行政院,不然你就從做一張新的圖卡你不要騙人,當時你還是會抵說人家說謊話做的圖卡啊,這個圖卡你沒辦法否認啊然後現在呢,現在對不對,澳洲不用查藏,美國要查藏我要死了啦,你跟川普要怎麼說,說不清楚啦好啦\n\n22\n00:07:52,884 --> 00:08:11,193\n部長好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事接下來謝謝署長我來請教長照問題台灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年提出了這個3.0的版的照顧這個一個政策的建言書希望國家能夠有更完美的完善的一個居家照顧政策當時三個政黨\n\n23\n00:08:13,334 --> 00:08:34,542\n七個委員都出席了表示說這個是大家非常重視那裡面有四個部分部長我是希望您可以看一下那個有關這個當然如果你沒有空讀我希望你的部署讀一讀然後把重點因為這個建言書非常的完整那第四項我今天要跟部長詢問的是第四項改善平建制度這部分我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見他在裡面請你看看\n\n24\n00:08:37,763 --> 00:09:04,481\n這個改善評鑑制度上面導入專家要業界專家建立社會影響力導向的一個評鑑模式部長就在陳情單位來跟我們說說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事委員拍桌打斷說明質疑社工專業甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求對現場人員冷嘲熱諷予待羞辱他們沒有辦法申訴就跑來跟在野黨的立委講話阿六\n\n25\n00:09:06,667 --> 00:09:15,974\n怎麼會發生這種事情我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家這個跟很多評鑑一樣你不能讓專家在雲端講話你不能在學者在雲端講話你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑聽聽看他講對不對這個像我們現在的共鳴會也現在都有病人專列正式已經是正式席次了還不是列席所以這個問題就出在這個地方我相信一個在雲端一個在地氣所以他們覺得很差勁\n\n26\n00:09:35,789 --> 00:09:55,244\n或是評鑑委員很傲慢就全部用罵的口吻受不了了包委員我想你也了解醫院評鑑的一個制度醫院評鑑委員其實是授信非常的嚴格我向我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是都是幫他用迴避的機制啦但是如果說\n\n27\n00:09:57,006 --> 00:10:04,853\n問的不是那個問題,然後態度又不好,我只有這個沒有人敢檢舉啦不用檢舉我們就要知道啊現在我給你看一下,請看一下目前的這個老人住宿型機構它有分等老人福利機構還分從優等到甲乙丙丁,分了五個等級耶\n\n28\n00:10:17,824 --> 00:10:28,696\n但是法人住宿宿的長照機構跟護理之家就是合格或不合格當然如果特別表現優的90分以上又符合必要條件我們就把它列為優等我現在認知沒錯吧你現在的這個評鑑制度是不一樣的是\n\n29\n00:10:32,961 --> 00:10:43,068\n既然有優甲乙丙丁等那這個出現什麼問題呢你看起來有鑑別度但實際上至少三個問題第一個制度不公嘛你同樣都是住宿式的這個長照機構那為什麼這個護理自家跟法輪長照機構他們就可以用合格或不合格那就可以繼續提供服務甚至拿到這個補助的這個計畫但是老人福利機構因為他被分了等地嘛那在一等其實還是70分啦在另外兩個就還是合格\n\n30\n00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:17,009\n但是他就拿不到他就拿不到這個甚至會影響因為他是被當作次等所以拿不到這個沒有辦法接案再回去那個圖給讓部長再看一次第二個社會觀感很惡劣\n\n31\n00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:22,354\n平建這個壓力會扭曲這個經營方向因為他可能差一分79分就在一等80分才能到甲等平建都是這樣他開始美化那個資料圖表書面資料表格把它做美化再加一分他就回去甲等\n\n32\n00:11:34,884 --> 00:11:54,491\n那過去已等還是不準備接受這個新增公費住民那當然我也很肯定這個社家署他已經把這個規定改掉可是已等就是一個歧視的概念所以那這個背離這個政策的一致性那業界都知道平建前後他們就是離此的旺潮\n\n33\n00:11:55,631 --> 00:12:02,413\n就是會跑掉所以這個等地的評鑑會讓這個品質評估變成行政資料的比賽競賽所以民間團體我這裡要請教部長他們希望能夠一致這三件事一致因為同屬於長照同時屬於住宿型的長照機構可不可以改成合格跟不合格那麼90分以上我們還是可以保留優等\n\n34\n00:12:19,217 --> 00:12:41,357\n這樣你不但是可以有所謂的保留標竿的獎勵也可以避免說壓縮到他們為了應付評鑑畢竟你知道醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間我們都心裡有數這些機構他們要準備這個為了加一分能夠上一個級數那可以嗎你今天可以承諾說這個要一致這個是行政執行就可以做到為什麼要分開評鑑\n\n35\n00:12:42,878 --> 00:13:00,944\n謝謝委員寶貴的建議我想這個部分我請理事長簡單簡要回答說未來的改進非常感謝委員的關心我想這個方向是對的那個之前其實我們現在修老扶法那我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經在嚴禮那你方向是不是往這個方向不要歧視嘛我覺得委員這個建議非常好\n\n36\n00:13:04,625 --> 00:13:18,175\n如果你同意的話因為很多機構是在這樣等因為之前那個像我有到那個黃秀芳委員他們有一個方向是這樣就好了我們就是找一個方向好不好我知道時間有事不好意思那最後我要跟大家看請大家看一下長照杯哥啦這個從2.0到1.02.0到3.0現在是要進步了但是長照杯哥依然持續發生老人受暴的這個\n\n37\n00:13:27,082 --> 00:13:44,067\n做不到受暴力受暴的通報這5年增加了5成增加了這個5成而且是來自直系血親配偶等等就是說不同身份的照顧人或相對人都一直在增加那根據這個中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會他們統計他們只能看報紙統計報紙揭發他才能統計2024年有8件2023年有14件這個\n\n38\n00:13:52,449 --> 00:14:17,330\n上個月至少兩件當然上個月兩件其中一件跟詐騙有關所以我是說在未來的設計上3.0你要對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭的家庭暴力這個部分可是我怎麼查你都沒有琢磨你就是說下一張這個圖我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿所有公開資訊都沒有對這一點提出改善方案\n\n39\n00:14:18,271 --> 00:14:24,784\n就是長哨杯哥的這個部分搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料因為這個他們的統計是根據報紙的報導\n\n40\n00:14:27,577 --> 00:14:46,216\n那這個部分要不要納入你們的3.0的版本裡怎麼樣來改善報告委員我們這個部分委員講得很好那我們這部分是在社安網社安網裡面其實有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具我們這邊會來加速推動還是要注意這件事這個是大家看了都很難過啦一定當然感謝兩位謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4807\t5650\t謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長\n12501\t31499\t委員長 部長早 民進黨政府長期以來一直非常的驕傲說我們進口的這個豬就是裡面擔心有來 它非常的驕傲說我們長期都是零檢出那當然這次破功 部長你有信任嗎 你剛才政壇也很久了 一直在強調我們是零檢出嘛\n34762\t60552\t我總質詢質詢這個剛開始這個陳建仁院長的時候他們也說都一直零檢出嘛就是過去都是這樣引以為榮嘛這次就是破功部長我要請問你被檢出這個就沒有檢出萊克多巴胺是不是表示這隻豬沒有被餵來豬沒有被餵來呢你可以這樣推論嗎沒有檢出是表示他源頭沒有餵這個萊克多巴胺嗎\n61704\t78609\t你的分業認知呢不一定因為他有參流的一個時間嘛對好就是說當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說台灣沒有萊豬你只是檢驗不出來他源頭是有未來的因為我們法是允許的這是第二個我要跟部長講的\n79969\t109158\t那多數台灣人是不想要吃萊豬為什麼因為我看過很多影片啊那個民進黨的委員啊包括柯董昭啊什麼蕭美香當時他們都一直喊我們都要零減豬我們絕不吃萊就在表示為什麼他們在反映民意民意是不想要吃萊不管他的這個知識或想法是從以來這是這是一個沒有辦法改變的這個部分但是這次非常諷刺的是這一次是從\n109898\t117084\t澳豬 澳洲來的豬驗出來但是長期那個美豬到目前並沒有驗出對嗎 是不是 情況是這樣這次驗出來是從澳洲進口的豬以前所有檢查過的都沒有嘛 就這次破功但是是從這個我沒有在談法律啦我知道江署長你談的是什麼但是我不懂啊如果官方說這是合格的\n136258\t146702\t然後不需要有流向的告知那為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把他銷毀呢我沒有看過這種場景我一生沒有見識過這個場景官方說你OK然後你出來銷毀又道歉這個發生什麼事呢第一個謝謝委員我簡單簡單的回答食安優先這個永遠都是我們不變的真理但是我們會依法嘛依法就是用\n162348\t186933\t你不覺得很奇怪 依法啊 OK啊 為什麼業者那麼害怕那我們尊重業者自主的一個做法跟要求但是我們一切都是按照規定來做那食安不能靠業者自律嘛但是我們有守護安全的把關嘛那部長我再問一件事 為什麼不公布我當然有看到這個江署長的理由 為什麼不\n187593\t212442\t國人沒有權利知道我吃的東西有沒有來嗎這是第一個你不公佈第二個我要再講蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦的說教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的一個指令就是說所有的萊豬不准進校園那你現在碰到這個狀況你怎麼知道他不進校園你能保證嗎那還是說他們以前的承諾你要翻頁不管了反正是已經換過人當總統了\n214864\t225519\t怎麼辦?要不要進校園?我們都一體適用的啦那是不是這個部分請署長回答一下你還沒有就任,但是蔡政府承諾過啊還是同一個執政黨啊謝謝委員這邊做簡單的說明就是說\n231861\t251779\t萊克多巴胺在我們的用藥裡面動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種所以每一種其實都經過了食品安全風險的評估下來定下來的所以定完之後它如果是合於標準的我們依法上面對於它在揭露其實對廠商的不利你信上任然後你依法去做事\n252339\t260307\t我這次沒有就是但是我要告訴你過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣請部長您好好看這張表左邊這張表圖是2022年行政院的圖卡他為了澄清事實請看中間那個點因為網路說很多國家的萊豬進來但是他說請看紅字只有美國萊豬會進口到\n275663\t282213\t台灣然後他還做了圖卡行政院的圖卡加拿大出口的豬肉不函來紐西蘭愁沒進口澳洲國內生產幾乎不用來進口總量是微乎其微但美國有數字好\n291065\t306103\t就是說這是行政院寫的圖卡結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來澳洲也進來那我可不可以說這四年前五年前行政院說謊說謊成性這個是行政院的圖卡為了查核事實啊\n308342\t322030\t部長你有看過這個圖齁?也是一樣喔,我告訴你不要給我想要翻頁喔還是同一個黨在執政喔?委員這邊我可以做簡單的回覆因為全世界可以使用萊豬萊特多巴胺在當年有2026國?\n324712\t342143\t20個國家領福的部分是有6個國家其中呢來到台灣台灣我們進口裡面可以允許他進口的國家裡面豬肉的其實是有6個國家那等一下停下來包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國你給我們事實但是我追究的是政治承諾這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的而且他還是為了說網友的一些不實的傳和他用事實來講這張圖卡你可以去查\n354151\t371496\t他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊你再看右邊你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦啊為茶廠不給進口就是說需要我國派員赴美茶廠後才可以進口那我想問一下請問石耀署你有沒有去澳洲茶廠這邊跟委員做進度報告因為澳洲是在\n379727\t406214\t100年以前在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了他已經約定俗成的歷史上他就是已經是既然是安全的你現在事務官你沒辦法回答我們未來可以我們未來可以機器人安排蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒茶場不能進來那為什麼美豬要茶場那個澳洲不用茶場呢我們去查我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去茶場的紀錄啊沒有啊但是他說的啊\n407274\t417264\t說得非常清楚當年是這樣子的那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事美國一定會把美牛美豬當作談判的籌碼就非關稅貿易障礙的部分那美國會跟我們講為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查償為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查償為什麼雙重標準為什麼在國際雙重標準這個一定是弱點談判的弱點\n432254\t443978\t謝謝委員的提醒因為我們整體對於兩國國一國之間的貿易在我們新的規定之前它就已經是正常在進口的一個狀況所以你看你國內是騙人的嘛你國內明明告訴我們只有美國來都會進口現在你看到澳洲來不管你合不合格就是跟\n455081\t471167\t圖卡不一樣,行政院,不然你就從做一張新的圖卡你不要騙人,當時你還是會抵說人家說謊話做的圖卡啊,這個圖卡你沒辦法否認啊然後現在呢,現在對不對,澳洲不用查藏,美國要查藏我要死了啦,你跟川普要怎麼說,說不清楚啦好啦\n472884\t491193\t部長好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事接下來謝謝署長我來請教長照問題台灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年提出了這個3.0的版的照顧這個一個政策的建言書希望國家能夠有更完美的完善的一個居家照顧政策當時三個政黨\n493334\t514542\t七個委員都出席了表示說這個是大家非常重視那裡面有四個部分部長我是希望您可以看一下那個有關這個當然如果你沒有空讀我希望你的部署讀一讀然後把重點因為這個建言書非常的完整那第四項我今天要跟部長詢問的是第四項改善平建制度這部分我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見他在裡面請你看看\n517763\t544481\t這個改善評鑑制度上面導入專家要業界專家建立社會影響力導向的一個評鑑模式部長就在陳情單位來跟我們說說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事委員拍桌打斷說明質疑社工專業甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求對現場人員冷嘲熱諷予待羞辱他們沒有辦法申訴就跑來跟在野黨的立委講話阿六\n546667\t555974\t怎麼會發生這種事情我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家這個跟很多評鑑一樣你不能讓專家在雲端講話你不能在學者在雲端講話你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑聽聽看他講對不對這個像我們現在的共鳴會也現在都有病人專列正式已經是正式席次了還不是列席所以這個問題就出在這個地方我相信一個在雲端一個在地氣所以他們覺得很差勁\n575789\t595244\t或是評鑑委員很傲慢就全部用罵的口吻受不了了包委員我想你也了解醫院評鑑的一個制度醫院評鑑委員其實是授信非常的嚴格我向我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是都是幫他用迴避的機制啦但是如果說\n597006\t604853\t問的不是那個問題,然後態度又不好,我只有這個沒有人敢檢舉啦不用檢舉我們就要知道啊現在我給你看一下,請看一下目前的這個老人住宿型機構它有分等老人福利機構還分從優等到甲乙丙丁,分了五個等級耶\n617824\t628696\t但是法人住宿宿的長照機構跟護理之家就是合格或不合格當然如果特別表現優的90分以上又符合必要條件我們就把它列為優等我現在認知沒錯吧你現在的這個評鑑制度是不一樣的是\n632961\t643068\t既然有優甲乙丙丁等那這個出現什麼問題呢你看起來有鑑別度但實際上至少三個問題第一個制度不公嘛你同樣都是住宿式的這個長照機構那為什麼這個護理自家跟法輪長照機構他們就可以用合格或不合格那就可以繼續提供服務甚至拿到這個補助的這個計畫但是老人福利機構因為他被分了等地嘛那在一等其實還是70分啦在另外兩個就還是合格\n662560\t677009\t但是他就拿不到他就拿不到這個甚至會影響因為他是被當作次等所以拿不到這個沒有辦法接案再回去那個圖給讓部長再看一次第二個社會觀感很惡劣\n678170\t682354\t平建這個壓力會扭曲這個經營方向因為他可能差一分79分就在一等80分才能到甲等平建都是這樣他開始美化那個資料圖表書面資料表格把它做美化再加一分他就回去甲等\n694884\t714491\t那過去已等還是不準備接受這個新增公費住民那當然我也很肯定這個社家署他已經把這個規定改掉可是已等就是一個歧視的概念所以那這個背離這個政策的一致性那業界都知道平建前後他們就是離此的旺潮\n715631\t722413\t就是會跑掉所以這個等地的評鑑會讓這個品質評估變成行政資料的比賽競賽所以民間團體我這裡要請教部長他們希望能夠一致這三件事一致因為同屬於長照同時屬於住宿型的長照機構可不可以改成合格跟不合格那麼90分以上我們還是可以保留優等\n739217\t761357\t這樣你不但是可以有所謂的保留標竿的獎勵也可以避免說壓縮到他們為了應付評鑑畢竟你知道醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間我們都心裡有數這些機構他們要準備這個為了加一分能夠上一個級數那可以嗎你今天可以承諾說這個要一致這個是行政執行就可以做到為什麼要分開評鑑\n762878\t780944\t謝謝委員寶貴的建議我想這個部分我請理事長簡單簡要回答說未來的改進非常感謝委員的關心我想這個方向是對的那個之前其實我們現在修老扶法那我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經在嚴禮那你方向是不是往這個方向不要歧視嘛我覺得委員這個建議非常好\n784625\t798175\t如果你同意的話因為很多機構是在這樣等因為之前那個像我有到那個黃秀芳委員他們有一個方向是這樣就好了我們就是找一個方向好不好我知道時間有事不好意思那最後我要跟大家看請大家看一下長照杯哥啦這個從2.0到1.02.0到3.0現在是要進步了但是長照杯哥依然持續發生老人受暴的這個\n807082\t824067\t做不到受暴力受暴的通報這5年增加了5成增加了這個5成而且是來自直系血親配偶等等就是說不同身份的照顧人或相對人都一直在增加那根據這個中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會他們統計他們只能看報紙統計報紙揭發他才能統計2024年有8件2023年有14件這個\n832449\t857330\t上個月至少兩件當然上個月兩件其中一件跟詐騙有關所以我是說在未來的設計上3.0你要對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭的家庭暴力這個部分可是我怎麼查你都沒有琢磨你就是說下一張這個圖我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿所有公開資訊都沒有對這一點提出改善方案\n858271\t864784\t就是長哨杯哥的這個部分搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料因為這個他們的統計是根據報紙的報導\n867577\t886216\t那這個部分要不要納入你們的3.0的版本裡怎麼樣來改善報告委員 我們這個部分 委員講得很好那我們這部分是在社安網 社安網裡面其實有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具我們這邊會來加速推動還是要注意這件事 這個是大家看了都很難過啦一定 當然感謝兩位 謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長\n委員長 部長早 民進黨政府長期以來一直非常的驕傲說我們進口的這個豬就是裡面擔心有來 它非常的驕傲說我們長期都是零檢出那當然這次破功 部長你有信任嗎 你剛才政壇也很久了 一直在強調我們是零檢出嘛\n我總質詢質詢這個剛開始這個陳建仁院長的時候他們也說都一直零檢出嘛就是過去都是這樣引以為榮嘛這次就是破功部長我要請問你被檢出這個就沒有檢出萊克多巴胺是不是表示這隻豬沒有被餵來豬沒有被餵來呢你可以這樣推論嗎沒有檢出是表示他源頭沒有餵這個萊克多巴胺嗎\n你的分業認知呢不一定因為他有參流的一個時間嘛對好就是說當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說台灣沒有萊豬你只是檢驗不出來他源頭是有未來的因為我們法是允許的這是第二個我要跟部長講的\n那多數台灣人是不想要吃萊豬為什麼因為我看過很多影片啊那個民進黨的委員啊包括柯董昭啊什麼蕭美香當時他們都一直喊我們都要零減豬我們絕不吃萊就在表示為什麼他們在反映民意民意是不想要吃萊不管他的這個知識或想法是從以來這是這是一個沒有辦法改變的這個部分但是這次非常諷刺的是這一次是從\n澳豬 澳洲來的豬驗出來但是長期那個美豬到目前並沒有驗出對嗎 是不是 情況是這樣這次驗出來是從澳洲進口的豬以前所有檢查過的都沒有嘛 就這次破功但是是從這個我沒有在談法律啦我知道江署長你談的是什麼但是我不懂啊如果官方說這是合格的\n然後不需要有流向的告知那為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把他銷毀呢我沒有看過這種場景我一生沒有見識過這個場景官方說你OK然後你出來銷毀又道歉這個發生什麼事呢第一個謝謝委員我簡單簡單的回答食安優先這個永遠都是我們不變的真理但是我們會依法嘛依法就是用\n你不覺得很奇怪 依法啊 OK啊 為什麼業者那麼害怕那我們尊重業者自主的一個做法跟要求但是我們一切都是按照規定來做那食安不能靠業者自律嘛但是我們有守護安全的把關嘛那部長我再問一件事 為什麼不公布我當然有看到這個江署長的理由 為什麼不\n國人沒有權利知道我吃的東西有沒有來嗎這是第一個你不公佈第二個我要再講蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦的說教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的一個指令就是說所有的萊豬不准進校園那你現在碰到這個狀況你怎麼知道他不進校園你能保證嗎那還是說他們以前的承諾你要翻頁不管了反正是已經換過人當總統了\n怎麼辦?要不要進校園?我們都一體適用的啦那是不是這個部分請署長回答一下你還沒有就任,但是蔡政府承諾過啊還是同一個執政黨啊謝謝委員這邊做簡單的說明就是說\n萊克多巴胺在我們的用藥裡面動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種所以每一種其實都經過了食品安全風險的評估下來定下來的所以定完之後它如果是合於標準的我們依法上面對於它在揭露其實對廠商的不利你信上任然後你依法去做事\n我這次沒有就是但是我要告訴你過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣請部長您好好看這張表左邊這張表圖是2022年行政院的圖卡他為了澄清事實請看中間那個點因為網路說很多國家的萊豬進來但是他說請看紅字只有美國萊豬會進口到\n台灣然後他還做了圖卡行政院的圖卡加拿大出口的豬肉不函來紐西蘭愁沒進口澳洲國內生產幾乎不用來進口總量是微乎其微但美國有數字好\n就是說這是行政院寫的圖卡結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來澳洲也進來那我可不可以說這四年前五年前行政院說謊說謊成性這個是行政院的圖卡為了查核事實啊\n部長你有看過這個圖齁?也是一樣喔,我告訴你不要給我想要翻頁喔還是同一個黨在執政喔?委員這邊我可以做簡單的回覆因為全世界可以使用萊豬萊特多巴胺在當年有2026國?\n20個國家領福的部分是有6個國家其中呢來到台灣台灣我們進口裡面可以允許他進口的國家裡面豬肉的其實是有6個國家那等一下停下來包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國你給我們事實但是我追究的是政治承諾這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的而且他還是為了說網友的一些不實的傳和他用事實來講這張圖卡你可以去查\n他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊你再看右邊你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦啊為茶廠不給進口就是說需要我國派員赴美茶廠後才可以進口那我想問一下請問石耀署你有沒有去澳洲茶廠這邊跟委員做進度報告因為澳洲是在\n100年以前在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了他已經約定俗成的歷史上他就是已經是既然是安全的你現在事務官你沒辦法回答我們未來可以我們未來可以機器人安排蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒茶場不能進來那為什麼美豬要茶場那個澳洲不用茶場呢我們去查我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去茶場的紀錄啊沒有啊但是他說的啊\n說得非常清楚當年是這樣子的那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事美國一定會把美牛美豬當作談判的籌碼就非關稅貿易障礙的部分那美國會跟我們講為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查償為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查償為什麼雙重標準為什麼在國際雙重標準這個一定是弱點談判的弱點\n謝謝委員的提醒因為我們整體對於兩國國一國之間的貿易在我們新的規定之前它就已經是正常在進口的一個狀況所以你看你國內是騙人的嘛你國內明明告訴我們只有美國來都會進口現在你看到澳洲來不管你合不合格就是跟\n圖卡不一樣,行政院,不然你就從做一張新的圖卡你不要騙人,當時你還是會抵說人家說謊話做的圖卡啊,這個圖卡你沒辦法否認啊然後現在呢,現在對不對,澳洲不用查藏,美國要查藏我要死了啦,你跟川普要怎麼說,說不清楚啦好啦\n部長好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事接下來謝謝署長我來請教長照問題台灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年提出了這個3.0的版的照顧這個一個政策的建言書希望國家能夠有更完美的完善的一個居家照顧政策當時三個政黨\n七個委員都出席了表示說這個是大家非常重視那裡面有四個部分部長我是希望您可以看一下那個有關這個當然如果你沒有空讀我希望你的部署讀一讀然後把重點因為這個建言書非常的完整那第四項我今天要跟部長詢問的是第四項改善平建制度這部分我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見他在裡面請你看看\n這個改善評鑑制度上面導入專家要業界專家建立社會影響力導向的一個評鑑模式部長就在陳情單位來跟我們說說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事委員拍桌打斷說明質疑社工專業甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求對現場人員冷嘲熱諷予待羞辱他們沒有辦法申訴就跑來跟在野黨的立委講話阿六\n怎麼會發生這種事情我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家這個跟很多評鑑一樣你不能讓專家在雲端講話你不能在學者在雲端講話你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑聽聽看他講對不對這個像我們現在的共鳴會也現在都有病人專列正式已經是正式席次了還不是列席所以這個問題就出在這個地方我相信一個在雲端一個在地氣所以他們覺得很差勁\n或是評鑑委員很傲慢就全部用罵的口吻受不了了包委員我想你也了解醫院評鑑的一個制度醫院評鑑委員其實是授信非常的嚴格我向我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是都是幫他用迴避的機制啦但是如果說\n問的不是那個問題,然後態度又不好,我只有這個沒有人敢檢舉啦不用檢舉我們就要知道啊現在我給你看一下,請看一下目前的這個老人住宿型機構它有分等老人福利機構還分從優等到甲乙丙丁,分了五個等級耶\n但是法人住宿宿的長照機構跟護理之家就是合格或不合格當然如果特別表現優的90分以上又符合必要條件我們就把它列為優等我現在認知沒錯吧你現在的這個評鑑制度是不一樣的是\n既然有優甲乙丙丁等那這個出現什麼問題呢你看起來有鑑別度但實際上至少三個問題第一個制度不公嘛你同樣都是住宿式的這個長照機構那為什麼這個護理自家跟法輪長照機構他們就可以用合格或不合格那就可以繼續提供服務甚至拿到這個補助的這個計畫但是老人福利機構因為他被分了等地嘛那在一等其實還是70分啦在另外兩個就還是合格\n但是他就拿不到他就拿不到這個甚至會影響因為他是被當作次等所以拿不到這個沒有辦法接案再回去那個圖給讓部長再看一次第二個社會觀感很惡劣\n平建這個壓力會扭曲這個經營方向因為他可能差一分79分就在一等80分才能到甲等平建都是這樣他開始美化那個資料圖表書面資料表格把它做美化再加一分他就回去甲等\n那過去已等還是不準備接受這個新增公費住民那當然我也很肯定這個社家署他已經把這個規定改掉可是已等就是一個歧視的概念所以那這個背離這個政策的一致性那業界都知道平建前後他們就是離此的旺潮\n就是會跑掉所以這個等地的評鑑會讓這個品質評估變成行政資料的比賽競賽所以民間團體我這裡要請教部長他們希望能夠一致這三件事一致因為同屬於長照同時屬於住宿型的長照機構可不可以改成合格跟不合格那麼90分以上我們還是可以保留優等\n這樣你不但是可以有所謂的保留標竿的獎勵也可以避免說壓縮到他們為了應付評鑑畢竟你知道醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間我們都心裡有數這些機構他們要準備這個為了加一分能夠上一個級數那可以嗎你今天可以承諾說這個要一致這個是行政執行就可以做到為什麼要分開評鑑\n謝謝委員寶貴的建議我想這個部分我請理事長簡單簡要回答說未來的改進非常感謝委員的關心我想這個方向是對的那個之前其實我們現在修老扶法那我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經在嚴禮那你方向是不是往這個方向不要歧視嘛我覺得委員這個建議非常好\n如果你同意的話因為很多機構是在這樣等因為之前那個像我有到那個黃秀芳委員他們有一個方向是這樣就好了我們就是找一個方向好不好我知道時間有事不好意思那最後我要跟大家看請大家看一下長照杯哥啦這個從2.0到1.02.0到3.0現在是要進步了但是長照杯哥依然持續發生老人受暴的這個\n做不到受暴力受暴的通報這5年增加了5成增加了這個5成而且是來自直系血親配偶等等就是說不同身份的照顧人或相對人都一直在增加那根據這個中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會他們統計他們只能看報紙統計報紙揭發他才能統計2024年有8件2023年有14件這個\n上個月至少兩件當然上個月兩件其中一件跟詐騙有關所以我是說在未來的設計上3.0你要對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭的家庭暴力這個部分可是我怎麼查你都沒有琢磨你就是說下一張這個圖我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿所有公開資訊都沒有對這一點提出改善方案\n就是長哨杯哥的這個部分搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料因為這個他們的統計是根據報紙的報導\n那這個部分要不要納入你們的3.0的版本裡怎麼樣來改善報告委員 我們這個部分 委員講得很好那我們這部分是在社安網 社安網裡面其實有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具我們這邊會來加速推動還是要注意這件事 這個是大家看了都很難過啦一定 當然感謝兩位 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.807 --> 00:05.650\n謝謝主席麻煩邱部長\n\n00:12.501 --> 00:31.499\n委員長部長早民進黨政府長期以來一直非常的驕傲說我們進口的這個豬就是裡面擔心有來它非常的驕傲說我們長期都是零檢出那當然這次破功部長你有信任嗎你剛才政壇也很久了一直在強調我們是零檢出嘛\n\n00:34.762 --> 01:00.552\n我總質詢質詢這個剛開始這個陳建仁院長的時候他們也說都一直零檢出嘛就是過去都是這樣引以為榮嘛這次就是破功部長我要請問你被檢出這個就沒有檢出萊克多巴胺是不是表示這隻豬沒有被餵來豬沒有被餵來呢你可以這樣推論嗎沒有檢出是表示他源頭沒有餵這個萊克多巴胺嗎\n\n01:01.704 --> 01:18.609\n你的分業認知呢不一定因為他有參流的一個時間嘛對好就是說當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說台灣沒有萊豬你只是檢驗不出來他源頭是有未來的因為我們法是允許的這是第二個我要跟部長講的\n\n01:19.969 --> 01:49.158\n那多數台灣人是不想要吃萊豬為什麼因為我看過很多影片啊那個民進黨的委員啊包括柯董昭啊什麼蕭美香當時他們都一直喊我們都要零減豬我們絕不吃萊就在表示為什麼他們在反映民意民意是不想要吃萊不管他的這個知識或想法是從以來這是這是一個沒有辦法改變的這個部分但是這次非常諷刺的是這一次是從\n\n01:49.898 --> 01:57.084\n澳豬澳洲來的豬驗出來但是長期那個美豬到目前並沒有驗出對嗎是不是情況是這樣這次驗出來是從澳洲進口的豬以前所有檢查過的都沒有嘛就這次破功但是是從這個我沒有在談法律啦我知道江署長你談的是什麼但是我不懂啊如果官方說這是合格的\n\n02:16.258 --> 02:26.702\n然後不需要有流向的告知那為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把他銷毀呢我沒有看過這種場景我一生沒有見識過這個場景官方說你OK然後你出來銷毀又道歉這個發生什麼事呢第一個謝謝委員我簡單簡單的回答食安優先這個永遠都是我們不變的真理但是我們會依法嘛依法就是用\n\n02:42.348 --> 03:06.933\n你不覺得很奇怪依法啊OK啊為什麼業者那麼害怕那我們尊重業者自主的一個做法跟要求但是我們一切都是按照規定來做那食安不能靠業者自律嘛但是我們有守護安全的把關嘛那部長我再問一件事為什麼不公布我當然有看到這個江署長的理由為什麼不\n\n03:07.593 --> 03:32.442\n國人沒有權利知道我吃的東西有沒有來嗎這是第一個你不公佈第二個我要再講蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦的說教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的一個指令就是說所有的萊豬不准進校園那你現在碰到這個狀況你怎麼知道他不進校園你能保證嗎那還是說他們以前的承諾你要翻頁不管了反正是已經換過人當總統了\n\n03:34.864 --> 03:45.519\n怎麼辦?要不要進校園?我們都一體適用的啦那是不是這個部分請署長回答一下你還沒有就任,但是蔡政府承諾過啊還是同一個執政黨啊謝謝委員這邊做簡單的說明就是說\n\n03:51.861 --> 04:11.779\n萊克多巴胺在我們的用藥裡面動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種所以每一種其實都經過了食品安全風險的評估下來定下來的所以定完之後它如果是合於標準的我們依法上面對於它在揭露其實對廠商的不利你信上任然後你依法去做事\n\n04:12.339 --> 04:20.307\n我這次沒有就是但是我要告訴你過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣請部長您好好看這張表左邊這張表圖是2022年行政院的圖卡他為了澄清事實請看中間那個點因為網路說很多國家的萊豬進來但是他說請看紅字只有美國萊豬會進口到\n\n04:35.663 --> 04:42.213\n台灣然後他還做了圖卡行政院的圖卡加拿大出口的豬肉不函來紐西蘭愁沒進口澳洲國內生產幾乎不用來進口總量是微乎其微但美國有數字好\n\n04:51.065 --> 05:06.103\n就是說這是行政院寫的圖卡結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來澳洲也進來那我可不可以說這四年前五年前行政院說謊說謊成性這個是行政院的圖卡為了查核事實啊\n\n05:08.342 --> 05:22.030\n部長你有看過這個圖齁?也是一樣喔,我告訴你不要給我想要翻頁喔還是同一個黨在執政喔?委員這邊我可以做簡單的回覆因為全世界可以使用萊豬萊特多巴胺在當年有2026國?\n\n05:24.712 --> 05:42.143\n20個國家領福的部分是有6個國家其中呢來到台灣台灣我們進口裡面可以允許他進口的國家裡面豬肉的其實是有6個國家那等一下停下來包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國你給我們事實但是我追究的是政治承諾這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的而且他還是為了說網友的一些不實的傳和他用事實來講這張圖卡你可以去查\n\n05:54.151 --> 06:11.496\n他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊你再看右邊你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦啊為茶廠不給進口就是說需要我國派員赴美茶廠後才可以進口那我想問一下請問石耀署你有沒有去澳洲茶廠這邊跟委員做進度報告因為澳洲是在\n\n06:19.727 --> 06:46.214\n100年以前在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了他已經約定俗成的歷史上他就是已經是既然是安全的你現在事務官你沒辦法回答我們未來可以我們未來可以機器人安排蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒茶場不能進來那為什麼美豬要茶場那個澳洲不用茶場呢我們去查我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去茶場的紀錄啊沒有啊但是他說的啊\n\n06:47.274 --> 06:57.264\n說得非常清楚當年是這樣子的那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事美國一定會把美牛美豬當作談判的籌碼就非關稅貿易障礙的部分那美國會跟我們講為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查償為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查償為什麼雙重標準為什麼在國際雙重標準這個一定是弱點談判的弱點\n\n07:12.254 --> 07:23.978\n謝謝委員的提醒因為我們整體對於兩國國一國之間的貿易在我們新的規定之前它就已經是正常在進口的一個狀況所以你看你國內是騙人的嘛你國內明明告訴我們只有美國來都會進口現在你看到澳洲來不管你合不合格就是跟\n\n07:35.081 --> 07:51.167\n圖卡不一樣,行政院,不然你就從做一張新的圖卡你不要騙人,當時你還是會抵說人家說謊話做的圖卡啊,這個圖卡你沒辦法否認啊然後現在呢,現在對不對,澳洲不用查藏,美國要查藏我要死了啦,你跟川普要怎麼說,說不清楚啦好啦\n\n07:52.884 --> 08:11.193\n部長好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事接下來謝謝署長我來請教長照問題台灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年提出了這個3.0的版的照顧這個一個政策的建言書希望國家能夠有更完美的完善的一個居家照顧政策當時三個政黨\n\n08:13.334 --> 08:34.542\n七個委員都出席了表示說這個是大家非常重視那裡面有四個部分部長我是希望您可以看一下那個有關這個當然如果你沒有空讀我希望你的部署讀一讀然後把重點因為這個建言書非常的完整那第四項我今天要跟部長詢問的是第四項改善平建制度這部分我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見他在裡面請你看看\n\n08:37.763 --> 09:04.481\n這個改善評鑑制度上面導入專家要業界專家建立社會影響力導向的一個評鑑模式部長就在陳情單位來跟我們說說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事委員拍桌打斷說明質疑社工專業甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求對現場人員冷嘲熱諷予待羞辱他們沒有辦法申訴就跑來跟在野黨的立委講話阿六\n\n09:06.667 --> 09:15.974\n怎麼會發生這種事情我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家這個跟很多評鑑一樣你不能讓專家在雲端講話你不能在學者在雲端講話你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑聽聽看他講對不對這個像我們現在的共鳴會也現在都有病人專列正式已經是正式席次了還不是列席所以這個問題就出在這個地方我相信一個在雲端一個在地氣所以他們覺得很差勁\n\n09:35.789 --> 09:55.244\n或是評鑑委員很傲慢就全部用罵的口吻受不了了包委員我想你也了解醫院評鑑的一個制度醫院評鑑委員其實是授信非常的嚴格我向我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是都是幫他用迴避的機制啦但是如果說\n\n09:57.006 --> 10:04.853\n問的不是那個問題,然後態度又不好,我只有這個沒有人敢檢舉啦不用檢舉我們就要知道啊現在我給你看一下,請看一下目前的這個老人住宿型機構它有分等老人福利機構還分從優等到甲乙丙丁,分了五個等級耶\n\n10:17.824 --> 10:28.696\n但是法人住宿宿的長照機構跟護理之家就是合格或不合格當然如果特別表現優的90分以上又符合必要條件我們就把它列為優等我現在認知沒錯吧你現在的這個評鑑制度是不一樣的是\n\n10:32.961 --> 10:43.068\n既然有優甲乙丙丁等那這個出現什麼問題呢你看起來有鑑別度但實際上至少三個問題第一個制度不公嘛你同樣都是住宿式的這個長照機構那為什麼這個護理自家跟法輪長照機構他們就可以用合格或不合格那就可以繼續提供服務甚至拿到這個補助的這個計畫但是老人福利機構因為他被分了等地嘛那在一等其實還是70分啦在另外兩個就還是合格\n\n11:02.560 --> 11:17.009\n但是他就拿不到他就拿不到這個甚至會影響因為他是被當作次等所以拿不到這個沒有辦法接案再回去那個圖給讓部長再看一次第二個社會觀感很惡劣\n\n11:18.170 --> 11:22.354\n平建這個壓力會扭曲這個經營方向因為他可能差一分79分就在一等80分才能到甲等平建都是這樣他開始美化那個資料圖表書面資料表格把它做美化再加一分他就回去甲等\n\n11:34.884 --> 11:54.491\n那過去已等還是不準備接受這個新增公費住民那當然我也很肯定這個社家署他已經把這個規定改掉可是已等就是一個歧視的概念所以那這個背離這個政策的一致性那業界都知道平建前後他們就是離此的旺潮\n\n11:55.631 --> 12:02.413\n就是會跑掉所以這個等地的評鑑會讓這個品質評估變成行政資料的比賽競賽所以民間團體我這裡要請教部長他們希望能夠一致這三件事一致因為同屬於長照同時屬於住宿型的長照機構可不可以改成合格跟不合格那麼90分以上我們還是可以保留優等\n\n12:19.217 --> 12:41.357\n這樣你不但是可以有所謂的保留標竿的獎勵也可以避免說壓縮到他們為了應付評鑑畢竟你知道醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間我們都心裡有數這些機構他們要準備這個為了加一分能夠上一個級數那可以嗎你今天可以承諾說這個要一致這個是行政執行就可以做到為什麼要分開評鑑\n\n12:42.878 --> 13:00.944\n謝謝委員寶貴的建議我想這個部分我請理事長簡單簡要回答說未來的改進非常感謝委員的關心我想這個方向是對的那個之前其實我們現在修老扶法那我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經在嚴禮那你方向是不是往這個方向不要歧視嘛我覺得委員這個建議非常好\n\n13:04.625 --> 13:18.175\n如果你同意的話因為很多機構是在這樣等因為之前那個像我有到那個黃秀芳委員他們有一個方向是這樣就好了我們就是找一個方向好不好我知道時間有事不好意思那最後我要跟大家看請大家看一下長照杯哥啦這個從2.0到1.02.0到3.0現在是要進步了但是長照杯哥依然持續發生老人受暴的這個\n\n13:27.082 --> 13:44.067\n做不到受暴力受暴的通報這5年增加了5成增加了這個5成而且是來自直系血親配偶等等就是說不同身份的照顧人或相對人都一直在增加那根據這個中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會他們統計他們只能看報紙統計報紙揭發他才能統計2024年有8件2023年有14件這個\n\n13:52.449 --> 14:17.330\n上個月至少兩件當然上個月兩件其中一件跟詐騙有關所以我是說在未來的設計上3.0你要對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭的家庭暴力這個部分可是我怎麼查你都沒有琢磨你就是說下一張這個圖我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿所有公開資訊都沒有對這一點提出改善方案\n\n14:18.271 --> 14:24.784\n就是長哨杯哥的這個部分搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料因為這個他們的統計是根據報紙的報導\n\n14:27.577 --> 14:46.216\n那這個部分要不要納入你們的3.0的版本裡怎麼樣來改善報告委員我們這個部分委員講得很好那我們這部分是在社安網社安網裡面其實有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具我們這邊會來加速推動還是要注意這件事這個是大家看了都很難過啦一定當然感謝兩位謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.807,"end":5.65,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長"},{"start":12.501,"end":31.499,"text":"委員長 部長早 民進黨政府長期以來一直非常的驕傲說我們進口的這個豬就是裡面擔心有來 它非常的驕傲說我們長期都是零檢出那當然這次破功 部長你有信任嗎 你剛才政壇也很久了 一直在強調我們是零檢出嘛"},{"start":34.762,"end":60.552,"text":"我總質詢質詢這個剛開始這個陳建仁院長的時候他們也說都一直零檢出嘛就是過去都是這樣引以為榮嘛這次就是破功部長我要請問你被檢出這個就沒有檢出萊克多巴胺是不是表示這隻豬沒有被餵來豬沒有被餵來呢你可以這樣推論嗎沒有檢出是表示他源頭沒有餵這個萊克多巴胺嗎"},{"start":61.704,"end":78.609,"text":"你的分業認知呢不一定因為他有參流的一個時間嘛對好就是說當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說台灣沒有萊豬你只是檢驗不出來他源頭是有未來的因為我們法是允許的這是第二個我要跟部長講的"},{"start":79.969,"end":109.158,"text":"那多數台灣人是不想要吃萊豬為什麼因為我看過很多影片啊那個民進黨的委員啊包括柯董昭啊什麼蕭美香當時他們都一直喊我們都要零減豬我們絕不吃萊就在表示為什麼他們在反映民意民意是不想要吃萊不管他的這個知識或想法是從以來這是這是一個沒有辦法改變的這個部分但是這次非常諷刺的是這一次是從"},{"start":109.898,"end":117.084,"text":"澳豬 澳洲來的豬驗出來但是長期那個美豬到目前並沒有驗出對嗎 是不是 情況是這樣這次驗出來是從澳洲進口的豬以前所有檢查過的都沒有嘛 就這次破功但是是從這個我沒有在談法律啦我知道江署長你談的是什麼但是我不懂啊如果官方說這是合格的"},{"start":136.258,"end":146.702,"text":"然後不需要有流向的告知那為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把他銷毀呢我沒有看過這種場景我一生沒有見識過這個場景官方說你OK然後你出來銷毀又道歉這個發生什麼事呢第一個謝謝委員我簡單簡單的回答食安優先這個永遠都是我們不變的真理但是我們會依法嘛依法就是用"},{"start":162.348,"end":186.933,"text":"你不覺得很奇怪 依法啊 OK啊 為什麼業者那麼害怕那我們尊重業者自主的一個做法跟要求但是我們一切都是按照規定來做那食安不能靠業者自律嘛但是我們有守護安全的把關嘛那部長我再問一件事 為什麼不公布我當然有看到這個江署長的理由 為什麼不"},{"start":187.593,"end":212.442,"text":"國人沒有權利知道我吃的東西有沒有來嗎這是第一個你不公佈第二個我要再講蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦的說教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的一個指令就是說所有的萊豬不准進校園那你現在碰到這個狀況你怎麼知道他不進校園你能保證嗎那還是說他們以前的承諾你要翻頁不管了反正是已經換過人當總統了"},{"start":214.864,"end":225.519,"text":"怎麼辦?要不要進校園?我們都一體適用的啦那是不是這個部分請署長回答一下你還沒有就任,但是蔡政府承諾過啊還是同一個執政黨啊謝謝委員這邊做簡單的說明就是說"},{"start":231.861,"end":251.779,"text":"萊克多巴胺在我們的用藥裡面動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種所以每一種其實都經過了食品安全風險的評估下來定下來的所以定完之後它如果是合於標準的我們依法上面對於它在揭露其實對廠商的不利你信上任然後你依法去做事"},{"start":252.339,"end":260.307,"text":"我這次沒有就是但是我要告訴你過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣請部長您好好看這張表左邊這張表圖是2022年行政院的圖卡他為了澄清事實請看中間那個點因為網路說很多國家的萊豬進來但是他說請看紅字只有美國萊豬會進口到"},{"start":275.663,"end":282.213,"text":"台灣然後他還做了圖卡行政院的圖卡加拿大出口的豬肉不函來紐西蘭愁沒進口澳洲國內生產幾乎不用來進口總量是微乎其微但美國有數字好"},{"start":291.065,"end":306.103,"text":"就是說這是行政院寫的圖卡結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來澳洲也進來那我可不可以說這四年前五年前行政院說謊說謊成性這個是行政院的圖卡為了查核事實啊"},{"start":308.342,"end":322.03,"text":"部長你有看過這個圖齁?也是一樣喔,我告訴你不要給我想要翻頁喔還是同一個黨在執政喔?委員這邊我可以做簡單的回覆因為全世界可以使用萊豬萊特多巴胺在當年有2026國?"},{"start":324.712,"end":342.143,"text":"20個國家領福的部分是有6個國家其中呢來到台灣台灣我們進口裡面可以允許他進口的國家裡面豬肉的其實是有6個國家那等一下停下來包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國你給我們事實但是我追究的是政治承諾這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的而且他還是為了說網友的一些不實的傳和他用事實來講這張圖卡你可以去查"},{"start":354.151,"end":371.496,"text":"他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊你再看右邊你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦啊為茶廠不給進口就是說需要我國派員赴美茶廠後才可以進口那我想問一下請問石耀署你有沒有去澳洲茶廠這邊跟委員做進度報告因為澳洲是在"},{"start":379.727,"end":406.214,"text":"100年以前在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了他已經約定俗成的歷史上他就是已經是既然是安全的你現在事務官你沒辦法回答我們未來可以我們未來可以機器人安排蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒茶場不能進來那為什麼美豬要茶場那個澳洲不用茶場呢我們去查我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去茶場的紀錄啊沒有啊但是他說的啊"},{"start":407.274,"end":417.264,"text":"說得非常清楚當年是這樣子的那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事美國一定會把美牛美豬當作談判的籌碼就非關稅貿易障礙的部分那美國會跟我們講為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查償為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查償為什麼雙重標準為什麼在國際雙重標準這個一定是弱點談判的弱點"},{"start":432.254,"end":443.978,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒因為我們整體對於兩國國一國之間的貿易在我們新的規定之前它就已經是正常在進口的一個狀況所以你看你國內是騙人的嘛你國內明明告訴我們只有美國來都會進口現在你看到澳洲來不管你合不合格就是跟"},{"start":455.081,"end":471.167,"text":"圖卡不一樣,行政院,不然你就從做一張新的圖卡你不要騙人,當時你還是會抵說人家說謊話做的圖卡啊,這個圖卡你沒辦法否認啊然後現在呢,現在對不對,澳洲不用查藏,美國要查藏我要死了啦,你跟川普要怎麼說,說不清楚啦好啦"},{"start":472.884,"end":491.193,"text":"部長好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事接下來謝謝署長我來請教長照問題台灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年提出了這個3.0的版的照顧這個一個政策的建言書希望國家能夠有更完美的完善的一個居家照顧政策當時三個政黨"},{"start":493.334,"end":514.542,"text":"七個委員都出席了表示說這個是大家非常重視那裡面有四個部分部長我是希望您可以看一下那個有關這個當然如果你沒有空讀我希望你的部署讀一讀然後把重點因為這個建言書非常的完整那第四項我今天要跟部長詢問的是第四項改善平建制度這部分我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見他在裡面請你看看"},{"start":517.763,"end":544.481,"text":"這個改善評鑑制度上面導入專家要業界專家建立社會影響力導向的一個評鑑模式部長就在陳情單位來跟我們說說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事委員拍桌打斷說明質疑社工專業甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求對現場人員冷嘲熱諷予待羞辱他們沒有辦法申訴就跑來跟在野黨的立委講話阿六"},{"start":546.667,"end":555.974,"text":"怎麼會發生這種事情我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家這個跟很多評鑑一樣你不能讓專家在雲端講話你不能在學者在雲端講話你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑聽聽看他講對不對這個像我們現在的共鳴會也現在都有病人專列正式已經是正式席次了還不是列席所以這個問題就出在這個地方我相信一個在雲端一個在地氣所以他們覺得很差勁"},{"start":575.789,"end":595.244,"text":"或是評鑑委員很傲慢就全部用罵的口吻受不了了包委員我想你也了解醫院評鑑的一個制度醫院評鑑委員其實是授信非常的嚴格我向我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是都是幫他用迴避的機制啦但是如果說"},{"start":597.006,"end":604.853,"text":"問的不是那個問題,然後態度又不好,我只有這個沒有人敢檢舉啦不用檢舉我們就要知道啊現在我給你看一下,請看一下目前的這個老人住宿型機構它有分等老人福利機構還分從優等到甲乙丙丁,分了五個等級耶"},{"start":617.824,"end":628.696,"text":"但是法人住宿宿的長照機構跟護理之家就是合格或不合格當然如果特別表現優的90分以上又符合必要條件我們就把它列為優等我現在認知沒錯吧你現在的這個評鑑制度是不一樣的是"},{"start":632.961,"end":643.068,"text":"既然有優甲乙丙丁等那這個出現什麼問題呢你看起來有鑑別度但實際上至少三個問題第一個制度不公嘛你同樣都是住宿式的這個長照機構那為什麼這個護理自家跟法輪長照機構他們就可以用合格或不合格那就可以繼續提供服務甚至拿到這個補助的這個計畫但是老人福利機構因為他被分了等地嘛那在一等其實還是70分啦在另外兩個就還是合格"},{"start":662.56,"end":677.009,"text":"但是他就拿不到他就拿不到這個甚至會影響因為他是被當作次等所以拿不到這個沒有辦法接案再回去那個圖給讓部長再看一次第二個社會觀感很惡劣"},{"start":678.17,"end":682.354,"text":"平建這個壓力會扭曲這個經營方向因為他可能差一分79分就在一等80分才能到甲等平建都是這樣他開始美化那個資料圖表書面資料表格把它做美化再加一分他就回去甲等"},{"start":694.884,"end":714.491,"text":"那過去已等還是不準備接受這個新增公費住民那當然我也很肯定這個社家署他已經把這個規定改掉可是已等就是一個歧視的概念所以那這個背離這個政策的一致性那業界都知道平建前後他們就是離此的旺潮"},{"start":715.631,"end":722.413,"text":"就是會跑掉所以這個等地的評鑑會讓這個品質評估變成行政資料的比賽競賽所以民間團體我這裡要請教部長他們希望能夠一致這三件事一致因為同屬於長照同時屬於住宿型的長照機構可不可以改成合格跟不合格那麼90分以上我們還是可以保留優等"},{"start":739.217,"end":761.357,"text":"這樣你不但是可以有所謂的保留標竿的獎勵也可以避免說壓縮到他們為了應付評鑑畢竟你知道醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間我們都心裡有數這些機構他們要準備這個為了加一分能夠上一個級數那可以嗎你今天可以承諾說這個要一致這個是行政執行就可以做到為什麼要分開評鑑"},{"start":762.878,"end":780.944,"text":"謝謝委員寶貴的建議我想這個部分我請理事長簡單簡要回答說未來的改進非常感謝委員的關心我想這個方向是對的那個之前其實我們現在修老扶法那我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經在嚴禮那你方向是不是往這個方向不要歧視嘛我覺得委員這個建議非常好"},{"start":784.625,"end":798.175,"text":"如果你同意的話因為很多機構是在這樣等因為之前那個像我有到那個黃秀芳委員他們有一個方向是這樣就好了我們就是找一個方向好不好我知道時間有事不好意思那最後我要跟大家看請大家看一下長照杯哥啦這個從2.0到1.02.0到3.0現在是要進步了但是長照杯哥依然持續發生老人受暴的這個"},{"start":807.082,"end":824.067,"text":"做不到受暴力受暴的通報這5年增加了5成增加了這個5成而且是來自直系血親配偶等等就是說不同身份的照顧人或相對人都一直在增加那根據這個中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會他們統計他們只能看報紙統計報紙揭發他才能統計2024年有8件2023年有14件這個"},{"start":832.449,"end":857.33,"text":"上個月至少兩件當然上個月兩件其中一件跟詐騙有關所以我是說在未來的設計上3.0你要對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭的家庭暴力這個部分可是我怎麼查你都沒有琢磨你就是說下一張這個圖我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿所有公開資訊都沒有對這一點提出改善方案"},{"start":858.271,"end":864.784,"text":"就是長哨杯哥的這個部分搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料因為這個他們的統計是根據報紙的報導"},{"start":867.577,"end":886.216,"text":"那這個部分要不要納入你們的3.0的版本裡怎麼樣來改善報告委員 我們這個部分 委員講得很好那我們這部分是在社安網 社安網裡面其實有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具我們這邊會來加速推動還是要注意這件事 這個是大家看了都很難過啦一定 當然感謝兩位 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":141,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時11分）謝謝主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，民進黨政府長期以來一直非常的驕傲，因為我們進口的豬就是擔心裡面有萊，所以他非常驕傲的說我們長期都是零檢出，當然這次破功。部長，你承認嗎？你在政壇也很久了，一直在強調我們是零檢出，對不對？剛開始我總質詢陳建仁院長的時候，他們也說都一直零檢出，就是過去都是這樣，引以為榮，這次就是破功。部長，我現在請問你，沒有檢出萊克多巴胺是不是表示這隻豬沒有被餵萊呢？你可以這樣推論嗎？沒有檢出是表示它源頭沒有餵萊克多巴胺嗎？你的專業認知呢？"],["邱部長泰源：不一定，因為它有殘留的時間嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：對，當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說臺灣沒有萊豬，你只是檢驗不出來，它源頭是有餵萊的，因為我們法是允許的，這是第二個，我要跟部長講的。多數臺灣人是不想要吃萊豬，為什麼？因為我看過很多影片，民進黨的委員包括柯總召、蕭美琴，當時他們都一直喊零、零、零，我們都要零檢出，我們絕不吃萊，這表示什麼？他們在反映民意，民意是不想要吃萊，不管他的知識或想法為何，這是一個沒有辦法改變的部分。但是這次非常諷刺的是，這次是從澳豬、澳洲來的豬驗出來，但是長期以來，美豬到目前並沒有驗出，對嗎？情況是不是這樣？這次驗出來的是從澳洲進口的豬……"],["邱部長泰源：對，以前所有檢查過的……"],["陳委員昭姿：都沒有嘛！就是這次破功嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：檢查過的美豬方面……只有這3批……"],["陳委員昭姿：我沒有在談法律，我知道姜署長你談的是什麼。但是我不懂，如果官方說這是合格的，然後不需要有流向的告知，為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把它銷毀呢？我沒看過這種場景，我一生沒有見識過這個場景，官方說你OK，然後你出來銷毀又道歉，部長，這是發生什麼事情呢？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，謝謝委員，我簡要地回答，食安優先永遠都是我們不變的真理，但是我們會依法嘛！依法就是用科……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你不覺得很奇怪，依法OK，為什麼業者那麼害怕？"],["邱部長泰源：我們尊重業者自主的作法跟要求，但是我們一切都是按照規定。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，食安不能靠業者自律嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們有守護安全的把關嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我再問一件事，為什麼不公布？我當然有看到姜署長的理由，國人沒有權利知道他吃的東西有沒有萊嗎？第一個，你不公布；第二個，我要再講，蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦地說，教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的指令，就是所有的萊豬都不准進校園，那你現在碰到這個狀況，你怎麼知道它不會進校園，你能保證嗎？還是說他們以前的承諾，你要翻頁不管啦！反正是已經換過人當總統了，怎麼辦？要不要進校園？萊豬會不會進校園？"],["邱部長泰源：我們都一體適用的，是不是這個部分請署長回答一下？"],["陳委員昭姿：你還沒有就任，但是蔡政府承諾過，還是同一個執政黨啊！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，這邊做簡單的說明。萊克多巴胺在我們的動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種，所以每一種都經過了食品安全風險評估後定下來的。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，我知道。"],["姜署長至剛：所以定完之後，它如果是合於標準的，我們依法上面對於它的揭露其實對廠商的……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，我知道，您是新上任的官，然後你依法做事，我這次沒有就是……但是我要告訴你，過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣。","請部長您好好看這張表，左邊這張表圖是2020年行政院的圖卡，它為了澄清事實，請看中間那個地方，因為網路說很多國家的萊豬要進來了，但是請看紅字，它說只有美國萊豬會進口到臺灣，然後還做了圖卡──行政院的圖卡，加拿大出口的豬肉不含萊；紐西蘭從未進口；澳洲國內生產幾乎不用萊，進口總量是微乎其微；美國有數字。這是行政院寫的圖卡，結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來，澳洲也有進來，那我可不可以說這五年前行政院說謊、說謊成性，這個是行政院為了查核事實的圖卡，部長，你有看到這個圖，也是一樣，我跟你說，不要想要翻頁，還是同一個黨在執政。"],["姜署長至剛：委員，這邊我做簡單的回復，因為全世界可以使用萊克多巴胺在豬肉的……"],["陳委員昭姿：當年有26國。"],["姜署長至剛：有20個國家，牛的部分是有6個國家，其中來到臺灣，我們臺灣可以允許進口的國家裡面，豬肉的部分其實是有6個國家……"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下，停下來，OK……"],["姜署長至剛：包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭及韓國。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，謝謝你，你給我們事實，但是我追究的是政治承諾。這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的，而且還是為了網友的一些不實傳言，他用事實來講，這張圖卡你可以去查，他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊！你再看右邊，你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦，未查廠不給進口，就是需要我國派員赴美查廠後才可以進口。我想問一下，請問食藥署，你有沒有去澳洲查廠？沒有嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做報告，因為澳洲是在100年以前，在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了，已經是約定俗成的，歷史上他就是已經進來是安全的，所以並沒有……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，沒關係，你現在是事務官，你沒辦法回答我這個部分。"],["姜署長至剛：我們未來可以積極來安排，可以的。"],["陳委員昭姿：蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒查廠不能進來，為什麼美豬要查廠，澳洲不用查廠呢？我們去查，我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去查廠的紀錄，沒有啊！但是他說得非常清楚，當年是這樣子的。那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事，美國一定會把美牛、美豬當作談判的籌碼，就非關稅貿易障礙的部分，美國會跟我們講，為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查廠？為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查廠？為什麼雙重標準？為什麼在國際上……這個一定是談判上的弱點。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提醒，因為我們整體對於兩國，國與國之間的貿易，在我們有新的規定之前，就已經是正常在進口的狀況……"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是雙標嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：所以澳洲的部分就已經進來了……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你就是要面對啦！政務官，你就是要面對嘛！所以你看，國內是騙人的嘛！國內明明告訴我們只有美國萊豬會進口，現在你看到澳洲也來，不管合不合格，就是跟行政院的圖卡不一樣，不然你就重做一張新的圖卡，你不要騙人，當時你還說人家說謊話所以做了圖卡，這個圖卡你沒辦法否認，然後現在呢？現在澳洲不用查廠，美國要查廠，慘了啦！你跟川普要怎麼講？講不清楚啦！好啦！部長，好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事，謝謝署長。","接下來，我來請教長照問題，臺灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年底就提出了3.0版的照顧政策建言書，希望國家能夠有更完美、完善的居家照顧政策，當時3個政黨7個委員都出席了，表示這個大家非常重視。裡面有4個部分，部長，我希望您看一下，當然如果你沒有空讀，我希望你的部屬讀一讀，然後把重點……"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個我們有看過。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為這個建言書非常完整，其中第四項，我今天要跟部長詢問的是「四、改善評鑑制度」這部分，我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見。請你看看，改善評鑑制度上面，建議導入業界專家，建立社會影響力導向的評鑑模式。部長，很多陳情單位來跟我們說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事，包括委員拍桌、打斷說明、質疑社工專業，甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求，對現場人員冷嘲熱諷、語帶羞辱。他們沒有辦法申訴，就跑來跟在野黨的立委講。部長，怎麼會發生這種事情？"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家。部長，這跟很多評鑑一樣，你不能讓專家在雲端講話，你不能讓學者在雲端講話，你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑，聽聽看他講什麼，對不對？像我們現在的共擬會，都有病人列為正式席次，還不是列席，所以問題就是出在這個地方。我相信一個在雲端，一個接地氣，所以他們覺得很差勁，或是評鑑委員很傲慢，全部用罵的口吻，受不了了！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想你也了解醫院評鑑的制度……"],["陳委員昭姿：我只是比喻你這個standing board到底誰要進去。部長，我要跟你講……"],["邱部長泰源：醫院評鑑委員其實受訓非常的嚴格，我想我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是……當然也有迴避的機制……"],["陳委員昭姿：是啊。"],["邱部長泰源：但是如果問的不是那個問題，然後態度又不好，我覺得這個我們會列為考核的……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有人敢檢舉啦，評鑑委員是大老，沒有人敢檢舉，但是這個部分……"],["邱部長泰源：不用檢舉，我們就要知道啊。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，現在我再給你看一個圖，請看一下，目前老人住宿型機構有分等，老人福利機構還從優等到甲、乙、丙、丁等，分了五個等第，但是法人住宿式的長照機構跟護理之家就是分合格或不合格，當然，如果法人住宿式長照機構表現特別優的、90分以上又符合必要條件，我們就把他列為優等。我現在的認知沒錯吧？你現在的評鑑制度是不一樣的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：既然有優、甲、乙、丙、丁等，這個出現什麼問題呢？你看起來有鑑別度，但實質上至少有三個問題：第一個，制度不公。同樣都是住宿式的長照機構，為什麼護理之家跟法人長照機構，他們可以用合格或不合格，然後就可以繼續提供服務，甚至拿到補助的計畫；但是老人福利機構，因為它被分為五個等第，即使乙等其實還是70分以上，這個分數在另外兩個（法人住宿式長照機構跟護理之家）就還是合格，但是在老人福利機構它就拿不到案源，因為它被當作次等，所以沒有辦法接案。再回去那個圖讓部長再看一次。","第二個，社會觀感很惡劣。因為評鑑的壓力會扭曲經營方向，因為它可能差1分，79分就在乙等，80分才能到甲等，為了拚那1分，評鑑都是這樣，它開始美化書面資料、圖表等等，把表格做得更美化，力求再加1分它就回去甲等了。過去乙等還不准接受新增公費住民，當然我也很肯定社家署已經把這個規定改掉，可是乙等就是一個歧視的概念，也背離政策的一致性。","業界都知道，評鑑前後就是離職的旺潮，人員就是會跑掉，所以等第的評鑑會讓品質評估變成行政資料的競賽。所以我在這裡要請教部長，民間團體他們希望這三個的評鑑能夠一致，因為同是屬於住宿型的長照機構，可不可以改成合格跟不合格，90分以上還是可以保留優等？這樣不但可以保留標竿獎勵，也可以避免他們為了應付評鑑而壓縮到照顧的時間。","部長，你知道的，醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間，我們都心裡有數嘛……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：這些機構他們要準備這個，為了加1分能夠上一個級數，那可以嗎？你今天可以承諾評鑑制度要一致嗎？這是行政指引就可以做到，為什麼要分開評鑑呢？為什麼要不同制度？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員寶貴的建議，這個部分我請呂次長簡要回答未來如何改進。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的關心，我想這個方向是對的，但是牽涉到修老福法，我跟委員報告，我們目前已經在研擬，那之前……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那你的方向是不是往這個方向？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，我們就往這個方向……"],["陳委員昭姿：不要歧視嘛，就是大家都一樣。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，我覺得委員這個建議非常好。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，如果你同意的話，因為很多機構在這樣等……"],["呂次長建德：是！是！是！因為之前我有到黃秀芳委員他們有一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，方向是這樣就好了。"],["呂次長建德：我們就是朝這個方向，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我知道，時間有限，不好意思。","最後，我要請大家看一下長照悲歌，從長照1.0、2.0到現在邁入3.0是在進步了，但是長照悲歌依然持續發生，老人受暴的通報這五年增加了五成，部長，增加了五成，而且是來自直系血親、配偶等等，就是說不同身分的照顧人或是相對人都一直在增加。根據中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會的統計，他們只能看報紙統計，報紙揭發的他才能統計，2024年有8件，2023年有14件，上個月至少有2件，當然上個月的2件其中有1件跟詐騙有關。","未來長照3.0的設計上，對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭暴力這部分，可是我怎麼查你都沒有著墨，我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿，所有的公開資訊都沒有對長照悲歌這部分提出改善方案。搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料，因為他們的統計是根據報紙的報導，這個部分要不要納入你們3.0的版本裡，可以嗎？怎麼樣來改善？"],["邱部長泰源：好，請我們呂次。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個部分委員講得很好，那我們這部分是在社安網（社會安全網）裡面，有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具，我們這邊會來加速推動。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是要注意這件事……"],["呂次長建德：好的，OK。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個事大家看了都很難過啦。"],["呂次長建德：好，一定，當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。謝謝，謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","來，接續我們請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}}