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700.303, \"text\": \"報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 686.133, \"end\": 686.293, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 686.293, \"end\": 687.554, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"萊\"}, {\"word\": \"克\", \"start\": 687.554, \"end\": 687.714, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 687.714, \"end\": 687.894, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"巴\", \"start\": 687.894, \"end\": 688.055, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"胺\", \"start\": 688.055, \"end\": 688.815, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 688.815, \"end\": 689.075, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 689.075, \"end\": 689.275, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 689.275, \"end\": 689.496, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 689.496, \"end\": 690.316, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": 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其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 701.124, \"end\": 701.244, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 701.244, \"end\": 701.784, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 701.784, \"end\": 701.965, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 701.965, \"end\": 702.285, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 702.285, \"end\": 702.465, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 702.465, \"end\": 702.605, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 702.605, \"end\": 702.885, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 702.885, \"end\": 702.985, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 702.985, \"end\": 703.065, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 703.065, \"end\": 703.245, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 703.245, \"end\": 703.385, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 928.803, \"end\": 928.923, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 928.923, \"end\": 929.283, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 929.283, \"end\": 929.464, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 929.464, \"end\": 929.624, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 929.624, \"end\": 929.684, \"score\": 0.126}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 929.684, \"end\": 929.704, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 929.704, \"end\": 929.904, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 929.904, \"end\": 929.924, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,614 --> 00:00:09,979\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長\n\n2\n00:00:16,567 --> 00:00:38,940\n部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n\n3\n00:00:41,562 --> 00:00:49,451\n但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了\n\n4\n00:00:55,704 --> 00:01:00,865\n覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降\n\n5\n00:01:21,371 --> 00:01:22,792\n我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施\n\n6\n00:01:38,740 --> 00:02:01,865\n當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒\n\n7\n00:02:02,675 --> 00:02:21,133\n報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意\n\n8\n00:02:22,851 --> 00:02:42,996\n109年11月26號行政院才頒布頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點稍微補充那是因為在109年之前行政院農委會防檢局其實\n\n9\n00:02:44,500 --> 00:03:08,032\n他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場\n\n10\n00:03:09,493 --> 00:03:38,613\n這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以\n\n11\n00:03:39,155 --> 00:04:01,378\n跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家\n\n12\n00:04:02,619 --> 00:04:19,788\n我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程萊劑有添加\n\n13\n00:04:22,449 --> 00:04:26,671\n然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準啦這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對對整個的\n\n14\n00:04:40,858 --> 00:05:06,852\n豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於信賴保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意好那我要求你你至少要去茶廠\n\n15\n00:05:07,873 --> 00:05:36,401\n茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準\n\n16\n00:05:37,546 --> 00:06:02,639\n跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加3件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統\n\n17\n00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:17,691\n那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的BorderProtectionIntelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明\n\n18\n00:06:20,073 --> 00:06:38,452\n容我提醒你在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗\n\n19\n00:06:39,213 --> 00:06:43,976\n就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的\n\n20\n00:07:07,129 --> 00:07:26,743\n當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的\n\n21\n00:07:27,463 --> 00:07:29,445\n一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次\n\n22\n00:07:45,382 --> 00:07:59,136\n來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公布流向說不用公布要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗\n\n23\n00:08:00,728 --> 00:08:14,357\n那請問我們要食藥署做什麼我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌\n\n24\n00:08:15,427 --> 00:08:30,395\n所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口\n\n25\n00:08:31,636 --> 00:08:57,886\n然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法\n\n26\n00:08:58,906 --> 00:09:08,126\n就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示\n\n27\n00:09:09,574 --> 00:09:31,466\n所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來\n\n28\n00:09:32,466 --> 00:09:56,783\n包括基改食品也要標出來這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料什麼成品什麼添加物一清二楚這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利\n\n29\n00:09:58,004 --> 00:10:24,204\n但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎\n\n30\n00:10:26,709 --> 00:10:42,695\n豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍\n\n31\n00:10:43,775 --> 00:11:09,629\n牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單你只要標產地大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣豬肉它的應用範圍它做成貢丸做成水餃它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後它就是化整圍裂整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看\n\n32\n00:11:10,049 --> 00:11:25,332\n牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌\n\n33\n00:11:26,133 --> 00:11:40,303\n報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的\n\n34\n00:11:41,124 --> 00:12:02,537\n它的結構跟效應是一樣的第一件事情第二個位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後\n\n35\n00:12:03,097 --> 00:12:25,895\n然後不要去告訴農業部對進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我宣誼當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊對署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內\n\n36\n00:12:29,117 --> 00:12:49,302\n的養殖我們的農業部是完全禁止以行獸體數的他是犯法的他是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼\n\n37\n00:12:51,543 --> 00:13:17,134\n所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體數的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉他要銷毀\n\n38\n00:13:19,035 --> 00:13:32,586\n結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n\n39\n00:13:38,030 --> 00:13:41,491\n而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的\n\n40\n00:13:55,235 --> 00:14:19,277\n嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公布流向只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情部長你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下好謝謝委員我想\n\n41\n00:14:20,998 --> 00:14:26,062\n所以我的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟\n\n42\n00:14:27,826 --> 00:14:52,125\n國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實這樣國人才可以心安\n\n43\n00:14:52,885 --> 00:15:14,088\n特別跟委員這邊做報告因為墨學之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於\n\n44\n00:15:15,029 --> 00:15:29,924\n深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知riskperception的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7614\t9979\t謝謝主席 我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長\n16567\t38940\t部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n41562\t49451\t但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了\n55704\t60865\t覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降\n81371\t82792\t我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施\n98740\t121865\t當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒\n122675\t141133\t報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意\n142851\t162996\t109年11月26號行政院才頒布 頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點 稍微補充那是因為在109年之前 行政院 農委會 防檢局其實\n164500\t188032\t他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場\n189493\t218613\t這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以\n219155\t241378\t跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家\n242619\t259788\t我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程萊劑有添加\n262449\t266671\t然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準啦這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對對整個的\n280858\t306852\t豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年 署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於信賴保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意好 那我要求你你至少要去茶廠\n307873\t336401\t茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準\n337546\t362639\t跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加3件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統\n363880\t377691\t那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Protection Intelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明\n380073\t398452\t容我提醒你 在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面 你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗 其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗\n399213\t403976\t就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的\n427129\t446743\t當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的\n447463\t449445\t一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次\n465382\t479136\t來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公布流向說不用公布要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗\n480728\t494357\t那請問我們要食藥署做什麼我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌\n495427\t510395\t所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口\n511636\t537886\t然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法\n538906\t548126\t就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示\n549574\t571466\t所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來\n572466\t596783\t包括基改食品也要標出來這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料什麼成品什麼添加物一清二楚 這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利\n598004\t624204\t但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎\n626709\t642695\t豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍\n643775\t669629\t牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣 這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單 你只要標產地 大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣 豬肉它的應用範圍 它做成貢丸 做成水餃 它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後 它就是化整圍裂整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同 你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看\n670049\t685332\t牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌\n686133\t700303\t報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的\n701124\t722537\t它的結構跟效應是一樣的 第一件事情第二個 位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢 其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後\n723097\t745895\t然後不要去告訴農業部對 進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我宣誼當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊對 署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內\n749117\t769302\t的養殖我們的農業部是完全禁止以行獸體數的他是犯法的他是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼\n771543\t797134\t所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體數的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉 他要銷毀\n799035\t812586\t結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n818030\t821491\t而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的\n835235\t859277\t嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公布流向 只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道 這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權 而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情 部長 你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力 就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下好 謝謝委員 我想\n860998\t866062\t所以我的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟\n867826\t892125\t國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好 我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實 這樣國人才可以心安\n892885\t914088\t特別跟委員這邊做報告因為墨學之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於\n915029\t929924\t深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知 risk perception 的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好 要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長\n部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了\n覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降\n我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施\n當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒\n報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意\n109年11月26號行政院才頒布 頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點 稍微補充那是因為在109年之前 行政院 農委會 防檢局其實\n他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場\n這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以\n跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家\n我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程萊劑有添加\n然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準啦這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對對整個的\n豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年 署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於信賴保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意好 那我要求你你至少要去茶廠\n茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準\n跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加3件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統\n那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Protection Intelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明\n容我提醒你 在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面 你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗 其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗\n就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的\n當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的\n一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次\n來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公布流向說不用公布要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗\n那請問我們要食藥署做什麼我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌\n所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口\n然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法\n就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示\n所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來\n包括基改食品也要標出來這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料什麼成品什麼添加物一清二楚 這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利\n但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎\n豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍\n牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣 這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單 你只要標產地 大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣 豬肉它的應用範圍 它做成貢丸 做成水餃 它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後 它就是化整圍裂整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同 你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看\n牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌\n報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的\n它的結構跟效應是一樣的 第一件事情第二個 位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢 其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後\n然後不要去告訴農業部對 進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我宣誼當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊對 署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內\n的養殖我們的農業部是完全禁止以行獸體數的他是犯法的他是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼\n所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體數的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉 他要銷毀\n結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的\n嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公布流向 只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道 這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權 而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情 部長 你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力 就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下好 謝謝委員 我想\n所以我的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟\n國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好 我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實 這樣國人才可以心安\n特別跟委員這邊做報告因為墨學之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於\n深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知 risk perception 的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好 要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.614 --> 00:09.979\n謝謝主席我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長\n\n00:16.567 --> 00:38.940\n部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n\n00:41.562 --> 00:49.451\n但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了\n\n00:55.704 --> 01:00.865\n覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降\n\n01:21.371 --> 01:22.792\n我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施\n\n01:38.740 --> 02:01.865\n當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒\n\n02:02.675 --> 02:21.133\n報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意\n\n02:22.851 --> 02:42.996\n109年11月26號行政院才頒布頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點稍微補充那是因為在109年之前行政院農委會防檢局其實\n\n02:44.500 --> 03:08.032\n他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場\n\n03:09.493 --> 03:38.613\n這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以\n\n03:39.155 --> 04:01.378\n跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家\n\n04:02.619 --> 04:19.788\n我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程萊劑有添加\n\n04:22.449 --> 04:26.671\n然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準啦這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對對整個的\n\n04:40.858 --> 05:06.852\n豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於信賴保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意好那我要求你你至少要去茶廠\n\n05:07.873 --> 05:36.401\n茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準\n\n05:37.546 --> 06:02.639\n跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加3件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統\n\n06:03.880 --> 06:17.691\n那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的BorderProtectionIntelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明\n\n06:20.073 --> 06:38.452\n容我提醒你在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗\n\n06:39.213 --> 06:43.976\n就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的\n\n07:07.129 --> 07:26.743\n當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的\n\n07:27.463 --> 07:29.445\n一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次\n\n07:45.382 --> 07:59.136\n來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公布流向說不用公布要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗\n\n08:00.728 --> 08:14.357\n那請問我們要食藥署做什麼我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌\n\n08:15.427 --> 08:30.395\n所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口\n\n08:31.636 --> 08:57.886\n然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法\n\n08:58.906 --> 09:08.126\n就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示\n\n09:09.574 --> 09:31.466\n所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來\n\n09:32.466 --> 09:56.783\n包括基改食品也要標出來這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料什麼成品什麼添加物一清二楚這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利\n\n09:58.004 --> 10:24.204\n但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎\n\n10:26.709 --> 10:42.695\n豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍\n\n10:43.775 --> 11:09.629\n牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單你只要標產地大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣豬肉它的應用範圍它做成貢丸做成水餃它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後它就是化整圍裂整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看\n\n11:10.049 --> 11:25.332\n牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌\n\n11:26.133 --> 11:40.303\n報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的\n\n11:41.124 --> 12:02.537\n它的結構跟效應是一樣的第一件事情第二個位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後\n\n12:03.097 --> 12:25.895\n然後不要去告訴農業部對進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我宣誼當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊對署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內\n\n12:29.117 --> 12:49.302\n的養殖我們的農業部是完全禁止以行獸體數的他是犯法的他是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼\n\n12:51.543 --> 13:17.134\n所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體數的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉他要銷毀\n\n13:19.035 --> 13:32.586\n結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來\n\n13:38.030 --> 13:41.491\n而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的\n\n13:55.235 --> 14:19.277\n嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公布流向只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情部長你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下好謝謝委員我想\n\n14:20.998 --> 14:26.062\n所以我的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟\n\n14:27.826 --> 14:52.125\n國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實這樣國人才可以心安\n\n14:52.885 --> 15:14.088\n特別跟委員這邊做報告因為墨學之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於\n\n15:15.029 --> 15:29.924\n深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知riskperception的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.614,"end":9.979,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長"},{"start":16.567,"end":38.94,"text":"部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來"},{"start":41.562,"end":49.451,"text":"但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了"},{"start":55.704,"end":60.865,"text":"覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降"},{"start":81.371,"end":82.792,"text":"我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施"},{"start":98.74,"end":121.865,"text":"當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒"},{"start":122.675,"end":141.133,"text":"報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意"},{"start":142.851,"end":162.996,"text":"109年11月26號行政院才頒布 頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點 稍微補充那是因為在109年之前 行政院 農委會 防檢局其實"},{"start":164.5,"end":188.032,"text":"他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場"},{"start":189.493,"end":218.613,"text":"這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以"},{"start":219.155,"end":241.378,"text":"跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家"},{"start":242.619,"end":259.788,"text":"我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程萊劑有添加"},{"start":262.449,"end":266.671,"text":"然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準啦這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對對整個的"},{"start":280.858,"end":306.852,"text":"豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年 署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於信賴保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意好 那我要求你你至少要去茶廠"},{"start":307.873,"end":336.401,"text":"茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準"},{"start":337.546,"end":362.639,"text":"跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加3件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統"},{"start":363.88,"end":377.691,"text":"那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Protection Intelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明"},{"start":380.073,"end":398.452,"text":"容我提醒你 在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面 你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗 其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗"},{"start":399.213,"end":403.976,"text":"就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的"},{"start":427.129,"end":446.743,"text":"當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的"},{"start":447.463,"end":449.445,"text":"一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次"},{"start":465.382,"end":479.136,"text":"來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公布流向說不用公布要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗"},{"start":480.728,"end":494.357,"text":"那請問我們要食藥署做什麼我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌"},{"start":495.427,"end":510.395,"text":"所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口"},{"start":511.636,"end":537.886,"text":"然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法"},{"start":538.906,"end":548.126,"text":"就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示"},{"start":549.574,"end":571.466,"text":"所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來"},{"start":572.466,"end":596.783,"text":"包括基改食品也要標出來這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料什麼成品什麼添加物一清二楚 這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利"},{"start":598.004,"end":624.204,"text":"但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎"},{"start":626.709,"end":642.695,"text":"豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍"},{"start":643.775,"end":669.629,"text":"牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣 這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單 你只要標產地 大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣 豬肉它的應用範圍 它做成貢丸 做成水餃 它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後 它就是化整圍裂整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同 你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看"},{"start":670.049,"end":685.332,"text":"牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌"},{"start":686.133,"end":700.303,"text":"報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的"},{"start":701.124,"end":722.537,"text":"它的結構跟效應是一樣的 第一件事情第二個 位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢 其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後"},{"start":723.097,"end":745.895,"text":"然後不要去告訴農業部對 進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我宣誼當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊對 署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內"},{"start":749.117,"end":769.302,"text":"的養殖我們的農業部是完全禁止以行獸體數的他是犯法的他是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼"},{"start":771.543,"end":797.134,"text":"所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體數的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉 他要銷毀"},{"start":799.035,"end":812.586,"text":"結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來"},{"start":818.03,"end":821.491,"text":"而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的"},{"start":835.235,"end":859.277,"text":"嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公布流向 只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道 這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權 而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情 部長 你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力 就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下好 謝謝委員 我想"},{"start":860.998,"end":866.062,"text":"所以我的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟"},{"start":867.826,"end":892.125,"text":"國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好 我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實 這樣國人才可以心安"},{"start":892.885,"end":914.088,"text":"特別跟委員這邊做報告因為墨學之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於"},{"start":915.029,"end":929.924,"text":"深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知 risk perception 的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好 要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時55分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，澳洲的萊豬「一萊再萊」，讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌，其實從2020年訂定萊豬的相關管理措施，到去年為止，豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到臺灣來，但是今年完全破功了，而且是接二連三的來。這樣子的情況，衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了覺得更不安心，因為根據署長對外的說法，來了就來了，沒有關係，這個吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣。這樣的一個說法，跟國人對於萊劑的恐慌跟不安，事實上差距非常的遙遠。面對食安標準似乎在往下走、在下降，我要讓部長跟署長看一下，現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣，當時在109年11月26號行政院頒布了一個「進口豬肉之全方位管理措施」，當時的這個措施第一點就要求從源頭管理，沒有查廠的肉品廠不准放行、不准進口。","第一個，我就要問，請問現在進口澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉到臺灣來的這一些肉品廠，你們查廠了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過，因為澳洲的進口豬肉是早年就已經經過我國行政院農委會防檢局承諾系統性的開放，所以那個時候已經同意了。"],["王委員育敏：109年11月26號行政院才頒布，沒有查廠的不准放行。"],["姜署長至剛：委員，這邊稍為補充，那是因為在109年之前行政院農委會防檢局都已經承諾系統性的開放，基於信賴保護的原則，所以很早、很早就開放。接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望，我們也可以積極來辦理。"],["王委員育敏：我要求現在針對澳洲的部分，因為已經三批都驗出有萊劑了，所以它的飼養方式、相關的豬肉廠，你們如果沒有去查廠就直接放行進來，這是有問題的。所以我的要求，第一個就是你們要先暫緩澳洲豬肉的進口，因為它是沒有經過查廠的，你要回到109年行政院所公告的，沒有查廠的，你就不准進口。你現在是沒有查廠先進口，結果發現它已經連續三批都有萊劑了，基於食安更嚴格的標準，你的行政權是可以先暫緩進口的，可不可以？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，剛才特別提到農業部防檢局其實在很久以前、在100年以前就是常態性的進口，我們基於信賴保護的原則……"],["王委員育敏：因為你現在查出它含有萊劑了。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家其實有27個國家……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我們有我們的標準，109年行政院的標準就是這樣子，而且從109年到去年為止，包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到臺灣，你今天發現澳洲現在在飼養的過程中有添加萊劑，然後你們沒有去查過廠，從109年到現在從來沒有去查過廠，所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛！這個就是食藥署對於民眾食安把關的一個標準，這個有這麼難辦到嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員這邊做簡單的報告……"],["王委員育敏：可不可以去查廠？"],["姜署長至剛：對整個豬肉、牛肉管制我們是一致的，所以其實有2,493批豬肉我們都有微量檢出，這從101年……"],["王委員育敏：署長，我現在問你的是產地查廠，澳洲你到底要不要去查廠？你就告訴大家。"],["姜署長至剛：我們這邊可以進一步去做辦理，可是基於信賴保護原則，其實對於這些我們已經允許，他們國家也是同意，我們也允許相關的使用……"],["王委員育敏：好，那我要求你至少要去查廠，查廠你一定要做到，這是你食藥署應該要做的事情。","第二件事情，逐批查驗，在109年當時，行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批查驗，結果到目前為止，現在2023年你們的查驗率已經下降到2%到10%了。這件事情下降的比率這麼快，現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品，你們要不要回到逐批查驗這個標準？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，就剛剛我提到的，有肉品裡面含有萊克多巴胺的，加上豬的，我們有2,493加3件，所以對於這樣子的情況，我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下，其實我們邊境有一個BPI……"],["王委員育敏：署長，注意你的用詞，「很驕傲」這幾個字您可能要小心。"],["姜署長至剛：抱歉，因為我們同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI，就是邊境人工智慧導入預測系統，對於沒有違規的產品，我們會降低查驗率，對於違規的產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗，所以我們可以跟委員報告，我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Prediction Intelligent system（BPI），目前是按照比例來進行，跟委員說明。"],["王委員育敏：署長，容我提醒你，在你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面，所謂要不要百分之百逐批查驗，其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗就可以逐批查驗，在第九條；第十條的加強抽批查驗也一樣，查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施。這個辦法賦予食藥署非常大的行政權，就是要你們去守護國人的食安，但是我覺得今天你們在萊克多巴胺這個議題上面，跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠。當國人恐慌的時候，你不斷告訴國人說，吃這個是安全的，當過去都沒有萊豬進來，現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉進口的時候，你還是覺得沒有關係，不需要提高為逐批查驗，這樣的作法，我只能告訴署長，你沒有辦法安民心。","過去你們在查一些引發食安風暴的食安事件，你們是怎麼做的？一旦發現之後，你們會提高邊境的抽驗比例，在下游你們會大幅的去稽查，就是要安民心，讓大家知道有公權力在，有中央在，所以大家安心。但是很抱歉，我必須講，這一次萊豬進來之後，你們給外界的態度是沒有關係，什麼都沒有關係，沒有採取任何行動、作為，要不要公布流向？你們說不用公布；要不要逐批查驗？你們說不須逐批查驗，那請問我們要食藥署做什麼？我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準，要給國人信心，但是你都不作為的情況底下，國人只會越來越恐慌。","過去在查蘇丹紅事件，你看你們是怎麼做的，過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的，那你現在是通通不作為，到目前為止，你沒有要改變任何的作法。所以就是澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口，然後現在已經到了268公噸，其中有三分之一都含有萊劑，未來不停止它進口，繼續進口，繼續流入市面，而且流入市面還可以不標示，你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎？民眾可以有選擇權吧？我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的豬肉吧？但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面，沒有辦法，就會通通流入市面了，流入到後端的加工食品廠，他需不需要標示？你們現在對外的說明是不用標示，所以就混著，它可以魚目混珠，大家吃下去都沒有關係。","這就是今天我要告訴你們的，事實上食藥署是有工具、有方法的，我再讓你看食品衛生管理法第二十二條，在第二十二條第一項裡面列了非常多食品添加物，通通都要標出來，包括基改食品也要標出來。這個是立法院後來的修法，因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格，所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品，連一個飯糰背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚，有什麼原料、什麼成品、什麼添加物一清二楚，這是為什麼？因為民眾有知的權利。但是在萊劑的這一條裡面，你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標，肉品含萊劑通通都不用標，這個合理嗎？請問萊劑跟基改食品對於人體所造成的影響跟傷害，如果連營養成分都要標、食品添加物要標、含基改食品的原料要標，那這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑，不用標嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：其實豬牛都一體適用，那2,493筆我們從來沒有標過牛肉裡面的萊劑，所以就豬肉的部分，我們……"],["王委員育敏：署長，容我再提醒你，你一直把牛放進來講，你是忽略了國人食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍，牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣，這是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候，牛肉就是比較簡單，你只要標產地，大家就會知道，但是豬肉不一樣，豬肉的應用範圍太廣，它會做成貢丸、做成水餃、做成滷肉飯，只要一加工之後它就是化整為零整個出去了。因為我們的國情不同，你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看，在臺灣很多人也不吃牛肉……"],["姜署長至剛：對，報告委員……"],["王委員育敏：所以在豬肉的部分，應該要採取一個更嚴格，讓大家更安心的作法，但是現在你對外說不公布流向，其實很多人很恐慌。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說，以及我希望把我的食品安全以及毒理學教授跟臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人的是，它的化學式是一樣的，它在豬牛裡面的結構跟效應是一樣的，這是第一件事情。第二個，我以臨床醫師身分已經執業30年，從來沒有遇到一位因食用含萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的患者到急診就醫的，這個部分其實我們知道，所以我如何把經過這麼完整的食品安全風險的分析、全世界科學家共同努力、臺灣這麼多人的心力之後，進一步……"],["王委員育敏：署長，那你要不要去告訴農業部？"],["姜署長至剛：對，進一步去做完之後，我希望能夠把安全轉換成安心，讓國人安心，我願意當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心，我希望能夠往這邊來推下去。謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：但是署長，我必須告訴你，現在國人不安心，所以你現在當不了安心的署長，因為國人的反應是最直接的。你藥理學那一塊的專業我尊重，但是你忽略了一個，在國內我們國內的養殖，我們的農業部是完全禁止添加乙型受體素的，它是犯法的，它是要被罰錢的。你認為在國人的認知裡面，我們國內的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西，今天在進口的肉品裡面含有萊克多巴胺，你要我吃下肚，你認為國人的認知會是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：我希望我繼續努力。"],["王委員育敏：所以你的專業那一套，我完全尊重，但是在國內，你可以看到農業部是禁止乙型受體素的，那國人的情感你要不要尊重？"],["姜署長至剛：我非常尊重國人的情感，一切都是以國家至上、人民優先的想法來進行。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果是這樣的話，我覺得目前為止，對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具。現在是業者自己發現進口到有萊劑的豬肉，他要道歉、他要銷毀，結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係，這個是國人沒有辦法接受的，就是你的標準比業者還要鬆。你有很多的管制工具，之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候就已經跟肉品廠商達成共識了，就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉到臺灣來，而且施行這麼多年沒有破功，那你今年是破功了。","我覺得這件事情，你有很多行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌，包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的，然後源頭查廠也是你可以做的，嚴格的把肉品的標示適時的去公布流向，只要它含有萊劑，你有責任讓消費者知道，這個也是你可以做的，這個都是我們的行政權，而且真的可以讓民眾安心，也代表你衛福部在把關。我覺得這些事情，部長，你們真的要考慮，一個行政單位握有這麼大的權力，就是幫人民服務，這個部長你回應一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的指教，我們一定是在科學分析跟國際標準所定的規定之下來力求，剛剛委員提出很多的行政措施……"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會運用這些行政措施來力保，我們的國人在食的方面能夠真的放心。"],["王委員育敏：好，我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的，進口豬肉全方位管理措施，全面的落實，這樣國人才可以心安。"],["姜署長至剛：特別跟委員這邊報告，因為末學之前在做食品安全，特別有做食品安全的風險分析以及食品安全的管理，在臺大的MOOCs（磨課師）課程，也藉這個機會給全國擔心的民眾、委員有機會可以一起去看一下我做的一系列課程，在深刻了解之後，或許可以讓我們的心更安，我希望我們風險感知（risk perception）的部分經過我們溝通之後，讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來，我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，要民眾認可才可以啦，不是自己講的，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長，這個是兩條平行線。","請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}}