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\"text\": \"第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 217.89, \"end\": 218.01, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 218.01, \"end\": 218.19, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 218.19, \"end\": 218.47, \"score\": 0.643}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 218.47, \"end\": 218.59, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"印\", \"start\": 218.59, \"end\": 218.73, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"尼\", \"start\": 218.73, \"end\": 218.89, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 218.89, \"end\": 219.051, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 219.051, \"end\": 219.271, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 219.271, \"end\": 219.731, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 219.731, \"end\": 220.052, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 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\"為\"}]}, {\"start\": 435.889, \"end\": 455.603, \"text\": \"因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 435.889, \"end\": 436.37, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 436.37, \"end\": 436.71, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 436.71, \"end\": 437.13, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 437.13, \"end\": 437.49, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 437.49, \"end\": 437.751, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 437.751, \"end\": 438.111, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"聲\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 438.111, \"end\": 438.231, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 438.231, \"end\": 438.331, \"score\": 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\"但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 471.479, \"end\": 471.619, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 471.619, \"end\": 471.759, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 471.759, \"end\": 471.859, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 471.859, \"end\": 472.059, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 472.059, \"end\": 472.199, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 472.199, \"end\": 472.319, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 472.319, \"end\": 472.519, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 472.519, \"end\": 472.639, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 472.639, \"end\": 472.819, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 472.819, \"end\": 473.039, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 473.039, \"end\": 473.219, 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{\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 488.882, \"end\": 490.003, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 490.003, \"end\": 490.143, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 490.143, \"end\": 490.383, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 490.383, \"end\": 490.623, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 490.623, \"end\": 490.803, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 490.803, \"end\": 491.643, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 491.643, \"end\": 491.783, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 491.783, \"end\": 491.983, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 491.983, \"end\": 492.303, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 492.303, \"end\": 492.543, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 492.543, \"end\": 492.683, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 492.683, \"end\": 493.103, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"館\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 493.103, \"end\": 493.423, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 493.423, \"end\": 493.603, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 493.603, \"end\": 493.803, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 493.803, \"end\": 494.264, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 494.264, \"end\": 494.404, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 494.404, \"end\": 495.204, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 495.204, \"end\": 495.444, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 495.444, \"end\": 495.784, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 495.784, \"end\": 495.984, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 495.984, \"end\": 496.204, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 496.204, \"end\": 496.224, \"score\": 0.134}]}, {\"start\": 496.924, \"end\": 512.31, \"text\": \"更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對 因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 496.924, \"end\": 497.124, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 497.124, \"end\": 497.244, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 497.244, \"end\": 498.405, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 498.405, \"end\": 498.725, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 498.725, \"end\": 499.165, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 499.165, \"end\": 500.265, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 500.265, \"end\": 500.365, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 500.365, \"end\": 500.585, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 500.585, \"end\": 500.946, \"score\": 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567.036, \"text\": \"我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 539.733, \"end\": 539.873, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 539.873, \"end\": 540.314, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 540.314, \"end\": 541.154, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 541.154, \"end\": 541.475, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 541.475, \"end\": 541.595, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 541.595, \"end\": 541.735, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 541.735, \"end\": 541.875, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 541.875, \"end\": 542.616, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, 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因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是 這非常重要的問題那我想說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 637.342, \"end\": 637.482, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 637.482, \"end\": 637.602, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 637.602, \"end\": 637.782, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 637.782, \"end\": 637.882, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 637.882, \"end\": 638.062, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 638.062, \"end\": 638.142, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 638.142, \"end\": 638.262, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 638.262, \"end\": 638.722, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 638.722, \"end\": 638.822, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": 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702.337, \"end\": 702.517, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 702.517, \"end\": 702.597, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 702.597, \"end\": 702.657, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 702.657, \"end\": 702.677, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,531 --> 00:00:00,932\n謝謝主席有請次長謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:12,601 --> 00:00:32,814\n因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語\n\n3\n00:00:34,995 --> 00:00:46,678\n那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在海協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應\n\n4\n00:00:47,810 --> 00:01:07,291\n那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要\n\n5\n00:01:07,791 --> 00:01:33,758\n做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方\n\n6\n00:01:34,398 --> 00:02:01,760\n對因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨邊會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象\n\n7\n00:02:04,302 --> 00:02:27,407\n為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他的國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其是這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的\n\n8\n00:02:28,307 --> 00:02:46,540\n中國很愛用這些納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是\n\n9\n00:02:48,141 --> 00:03:12,141\n我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然呢因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個這個\n\n10\n00:03:16,524 --> 00:03:34,828\n以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的\n\n11\n00:03:37,890 --> 00:04:00,871\n第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個\n\n12\n00:04:02,752 --> 00:04:27,305\n這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略\n\n13\n00:04:28,463 --> 00:04:43,754\n當然我們這個就整個的媒體,我想重要的東西對於FEMI,那麼剛才委員所提到,像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情,或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑。\n\n14\n00:04:47,717 --> 00:05:03,679\n那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量\n\n15\n00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:31,771\n同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係同時也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰\n\n16\n00:05:32,851 --> 00:05:47,366\n以菲律賓為例他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在委員的提到裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的媒體的滲透\n\n17\n00:05:50,409 --> 00:06:16,381\n有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣但是最後面來說的話一個還是一個他們的執政的這個想法他們選擇跟誰站得比較近第二個是我們\n\n18\n00:06:16,901 --> 00:06:43,528\n很願意跟他們的各個層面來交流如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個\n\n19\n00:06:45,869 --> 00:07:14,769\n幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為\n\n20\n00:07:15,889 --> 00:07:35,603\n因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的\n\n21\n00:07:35,623 --> 00:07:50,658\n我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們\n\n22\n00:07:51,479 --> 00:08:16,224\n但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找\n\n23\n00:08:16,924 --> 00:08:32,310\n更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了\n\n24\n00:08:32,910 --> 00:08:59,413\n所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面\n\n25\n00:08:59,733 --> 00:09:27,036\n我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人\n\n26\n00:09:27,757 --> 00:09:42,632\n然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境啊我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略啊其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展\n\n27\n00:09:45,765 --> 00:10:09,299\n我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體跟外交部跟我們的政府跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲\n\n28\n00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:36,682\n那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的負擔是我們能夠著重的重點\n\n29\n00:10:37,342 --> 00:11:05,129\n對啦因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是這非常重要的問題那我想說\n\n30\n00:11:06,769 --> 00:11:27,541\n這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說\n\n31\n00:11:28,021 --> 00:11:42,677\n它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來promote這樣的一個概念好那謝謝市長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n531\t932\t謝謝主席 有請次長 謝謝\n12601\t32814\t因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語\n34995\t46678\t那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在海協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應\n47810\t67291\t那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要\n67791\t93758\t做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方\n94398\t121760\t對 因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨邊會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在 當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象\n124302\t147407\t為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他的國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其是這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的\n148307\t166540\t中國很愛用這些納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是\n168141\t192141\t我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然呢因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個這個\n196524\t214828\t以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的\n217890\t240871\t第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個\n242752\t267305\t這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略\n268463\t283754\t當然我們這個就整個的媒體,我想重要的東西對於FEMI,那麼剛才委員所提到,像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情,或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑。\n287717\t303679\t那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量\n304079\t331771\t同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係同時也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰\n332851\t347366\t以菲律賓為例他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在委員的提到裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的媒體的滲透\n350409\t376381\t有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣但是最後面來說的話一個還是一個他們的執政的這個想法他們選擇跟誰站得比較近第二個是我們\n376901\t403528\t很願意跟他們的各個層面來交流如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個\n405869\t434769\t幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為\n435889\t455603\t因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的\n455623\t470658\t我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們\n471479\t496224\t但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找\n496924\t512310\t更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對 因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了\n512910\t539413\t所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面\n539733\t567036\t我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人\n567757\t582632\t然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境啊我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略啊其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展\n585765\t609299\t我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體跟外交部跟我們的政府跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲\n610720\t636682\t那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的負擔是我們能夠著重的重點\n637342\t665129\t對啦 因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是 這非常重要的問題那我想說\n666769\t687541\t這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說\n688021\t702677\t它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來promote這樣的一個概念好那謝謝市長謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請次長 謝謝\n因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語\n那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在海協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應\n那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要\n做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方\n對 因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨邊會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在 當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象\n為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他的國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其是這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的\n中國很愛用這些納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是\n我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然呢因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個這個\n以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的\n第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個\n這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略\n當然我們這個就整個的媒體,我想重要的東西對於FEMI,那麼剛才委員所提到,像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情,或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑。\n那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量\n同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係同時也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰\n以菲律賓為例他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在委員的提到裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的媒體的滲透\n有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣但是最後面來說的話一個還是一個他們的執政的這個想法他們選擇跟誰站得比較近第二個是我們\n很願意跟他們的各個層面來交流如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個\n幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為\n因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的\n我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們\n但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找\n更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對 因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了\n所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面\n我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人\n然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境啊我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略啊其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展\n我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體跟外交部跟我們的政府跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲\n那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的負擔是我們能夠著重的重點\n對啦 因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是 這非常重要的問題那我想說\n這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說\n它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來promote這樣的一個概念好那謝謝市長謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.531 --> 00:00.932\n謝謝主席有請次長謝謝\n\n00:12.601 --> 00:32.814\n因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語\n\n00:34.995 --> 00:46.678\n那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在海協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應\n\n00:47.810 --> 01:07.291\n那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要\n\n01:07.791 --> 01:33.758\n做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方\n\n01:34.398 --> 02:01.760\n對因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨邊會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象\n\n02:04.302 --> 02:27.407\n為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他的國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其是這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的\n\n02:28.307 --> 02:46.540\n中國很愛用這些納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是\n\n02:48.141 --> 03:12.141\n我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然呢因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個這個\n\n03:16.524 --> 03:34.828\n以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的\n\n03:37.890 --> 04:00.871\n第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個\n\n04:02.752 --> 04:27.305\n這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略\n\n04:28.463 --> 04:43.754\n當然我們這個就整個的媒體,我想重要的東西對於FEMI,那麼剛才委員所提到,像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情,或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑。\n\n04:47.717 --> 05:03.679\n那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量\n\n05:04.079 --> 05:31.771\n同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係同時也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰\n\n05:32.851 --> 05:47.366\n以菲律賓為例他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在委員的提到裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的媒體的滲透\n\n05:50.409 --> 06:16.381\n有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣但是最後面來說的話一個還是一個他們的執政的這個想法他們選擇跟誰站得比較近第二個是我們\n\n06:16.901 --> 06:43.528\n很願意跟他們的各個層面來交流如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個\n\n06:45.869 --> 07:14.769\n幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為\n\n07:15.889 --> 07:35.603\n因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的\n\n07:35.623 --> 07:50.658\n我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們\n\n07:51.479 --> 08:16.224\n但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找\n\n08:16.924 --> 08:32.310\n更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了\n\n08:32.910 --> 08:59.413\n所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面\n\n08:59.733 --> 09:27.036\n我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人\n\n09:27.757 --> 09:42.632\n然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境啊我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略啊其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展\n\n09:45.765 --> 10:09.299\n我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體跟外交部跟我們的政府跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲\n\n10:10.720 --> 10:36.682\n那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的負擔是我們能夠著重的重點\n\n10:37.342 --> 11:05.129\n對啦因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是這非常重要的問題那我想說\n\n11:06.769 --> 11:27.541\n這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說\n\n11:28.021 --> 11:42.677\n它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來promote這樣的一個概念好那謝謝市長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.531,"end":0.932,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長 謝謝"},{"start":12.601,"end":32.814,"text":"因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語"},{"start":34.995,"end":46.678,"text":"那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在海協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應"},{"start":47.81,"end":67.291,"text":"那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要"},{"start":67.791,"end":93.758,"text":"做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方"},{"start":94.398,"end":121.76,"text":"對 因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨邊會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在 當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象"},{"start":124.302,"end":147.407,"text":"為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他的國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其是這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的"},{"start":148.307,"end":166.54,"text":"中國很愛用這些納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是"},{"start":168.141,"end":192.141,"text":"我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然呢因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個這個"},{"start":196.524,"end":214.828,"text":"以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的"},{"start":217.89,"end":240.871,"text":"第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個"},{"start":242.752,"end":267.305,"text":"這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":268.463,"end":283.754,"text":"當然我們這個就整個的媒體,我想重要的東西對於FEMI,那麼剛才委員所提到,像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情,或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑。"},{"start":287.717,"end":303.679,"text":"那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量"},{"start":304.079,"end":331.771,"text":"同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係同時也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰"},{"start":332.851,"end":347.366,"text":"以菲律賓為例他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在委員的提到裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的媒體的滲透"},{"start":350.409,"end":376.381,"text":"有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣但是最後面來說的話一個還是一個他們的執政的這個想法他們選擇跟誰站得比較近第二個是我們"},{"start":376.901,"end":403.528,"text":"很願意跟他們的各個層面來交流如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個"},{"start":405.869,"end":434.769,"text":"幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為"},{"start":435.889,"end":455.603,"text":"因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的"},{"start":455.623,"end":470.658,"text":"我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們"},{"start":471.479,"end":496.224,"text":"但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找"},{"start":496.924,"end":512.31,"text":"更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對 因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了"},{"start":512.91,"end":539.413,"text":"所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面"},{"start":539.733,"end":567.036,"text":"我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人"},{"start":567.757,"end":582.632,"text":"然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境啊我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略啊其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展"},{"start":585.765,"end":609.299,"text":"我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體跟外交部跟我們的政府跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲"},{"start":610.72,"end":636.682,"text":"那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的負擔是我們能夠著重的重點"},{"start":637.342,"end":665.129,"text":"對啦 因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是 這非常重要的問題那我想說"},{"start":666.769,"end":687.541,"text":"這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說"},{"start":688.021,"end":702.677,"text":"它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來promote這樣的一個概念好那謝謝市長謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時22分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：次長好。因為今天的題目是跟南島語系國家有關，所以我先稍微問幾個小細節，但是在此之前，昨天剛好發生了一件事情，就是德國在臺協會特別發文，主要是針對國民黨主席指控對方是納粹的用語。說真的，我覺得大家對外要一致，雖然這是國民黨的行為，但畢竟這等於是德國在臺協會在外交上提出的譴責，我們應該要用什麼樣的態度來回應？"],["陳次長明祺：德國在戰後對於他們過去侵略別的國家、對內發展極權統治壓迫國內民眾深刻的反省，這應該是世界的共識，昨天德國在臺協會也說不要做不當的類比，這也是一個很好的呼籲。當然我們沒有透過這個東西介入國內政黨之間的競爭或是他們互相的一些說法，我覺得就外交的觀點來看，我們尊重別的國家的歷史，尤其一個國家能夠深刻反省他們過去的侵略行為以及他們過去的獨裁統治，我覺得這是我們必須尊重的地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這件事情事實上算是一個外交事件，我現在覺得比較困擾的地方是，像我前陣子在接待外賓的時候，他們也會問為什麼你們在立法院的黨鞭會說你是美國的間諜，他這樣講好像是把美國當作一個很負面的名詞。今天國民黨主席用這樣詞語的時候，當然我認為在外交上面一定是不當的，但是我們要怎麼去解釋為什麼現在臺灣產生這樣的現象？為什麼國會的最大黨會用這樣的方式來指責？有時候我們可能還是需要對其他國家作完整的說明，當然我們可以說這是對方在政治上攻防，但我覺得就臺灣的歷史脈絡，尤其這五、六年以來，到底為什麼這樣的用詞變多了？我們應該要怎麼去做？因為最早期這些用語都是中國在講的，中國很愛用納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語，究竟這種因素是怎麼進入到臺灣社會的，我覺得其實我們也可以去說明，讓國外的人知道現在臺灣產生的現象。這是一個小小的建議。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：回到今天的題目，今天的題目最主要還是南島語系相關的國家，最近有一個新聞是關於中國對帛琉的滲透手法系統化，當然因為帛琉是我們的邦交國，他想要去爭取、想要去滲透所在多有，我想要問的反而是另外一個問題，次長應該知道我們之前都有在做所謂的中國滲透指數，我在review的過程當中發現，以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等國家為例，印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了，即使其他國家看起來稍微掉了一點，比如馬來西亞等等，但它的分數其實都還是很高，所以我稍微做了一下盤點。第一個是印尼的部分，比較深顏色的圈圈代表這一次，比較淡顏色的紅色是上一次（2022年），也就是這兩年之內，中國對印尼的影響力，包括軍事以及一般社會對TikTok的使用等等之類，還有在學術方面就變得比較強了。另外我們再看到新加坡，新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強，我覺得這是一個警訊。最後我列了馬來西亞，馬來西亞在軍事、媒體方面都變多了，另外還有科技方面。像他們這種滲透，尤其是在這幾個我們也要爭取的國家，都有在特定的幾個面向增強，針對這一點，外交部有沒有什麼策略？"],["陳次長明祺：當然就整個的媒體，我想重要的是對於FIMI，以及剛才委員所提到對於媒體與各界進行滲透或者是透過影響力作戰來進行其認知的形塑，我們一定要提供另類的論述，我們希望能夠分享我們在臺灣怎麼樣能夠跟外國影響力作戰、對抗的過程，我想很多單位都在做，我們的政府也結合了民間的力量，同時這也是在我們全社會韌性的考量裡面，希望能夠透過公私合作、透過在外交上面交換的關係。同時也跟委員報告，這是一個完整的東西，包括從智庫、包括從學者學術的交流到政府的組織互動，我們希望能夠跟友邦或理念相近的國家能夠在這上面有好的互動，能夠共同對抗中國在這個地方進行的認知作戰。以菲律賓為例，他們非常重視這樣的問題，他們也尋求能夠跟我們經驗分享，菲律賓不在委員剛才提到的範圍裡面，但其實他們也面對非常多的媒體滲透都是有利於大陸的言論形塑。像您所提到的馬來西亞、印尼和新加坡也都面對同樣的問題，我想透過公私協力、透過多層次的互動，我們希望大家能夠共同面對這樣的問題，但最後還是他們執政黨的想法，也就是他們選擇跟誰站得比較近。第二個，我們很願意跟他們進行各個層面的交流，如果他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視，我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會、學術界多多互動。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要，像軍事的增強，外交部大概不太能做什麼，但譬如媒體的部分，假如他們的媒體滲透變多，就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候，可能中國的資訊就變多了。說真的，這就是我前面提到的問題，過去這幾年以來，中國的資訊在臺灣變得非常非常的多，所以像中國會用的納粹等等的用語，已經嚴重滲透到臺灣人對於彼此之間的攻擊，其他國家也可能會面臨一樣的狀況，因為等於中國的媒體變多。我們在做總和外交的時候非常強調，像剛剛提到智庫、學者等等的交流，但是對於一般人民的部分，我好幾次質詢外交部都一再強調，就是因為剛剛我們講的中國加強滲透這幾個媒體，他們的人民會被影響，我們要怎麼反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要，不然他們就會偏聽，他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音，我們的聲音會變少，這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係，但是無論如何要怎麼去加強這一塊，我覺得應該是最重要的。"],["陳次長明祺：有，我們最近在跟外館的溝通互動上面，我也請他們特別注意有關所謂的社群媒體，我們是不是能夠找一些比較客觀、中立的網紅，把我們的資料提供給他們。但是事實上，有的時候在社交媒體上面的空間，畢竟很多的網紅還是有流量的需求，還有可能有一些金錢的考慮。這個方面，因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難，所以我也鼓勵外館能夠用比較有創意的做法，比如找更多的網紅來報導我們的活動，我們再努力加強。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得這個內容的本身應該非常重要，因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候，他的錢會越砸越多，如果我們跟他變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽，我看大概也是贏不了，所以外館在這件事情上面要多多跟當地的NGO合作，因為NGO有動能。"],["陳次長明祺：沒錯。"],["沈委員伯洋：NGO的動能雖然可能只占當地社會不到1%，但是它能夠常常上街頭，它講話可能會對人民有說服力，我覺得這方面的加強甚至可能會比學者來得更為重要。"],["陳次長明祺：是。我們就遵照委員的指導，再加強跟公民社會的互動，我們會請臺灣的公民社會團體、關心這個問題的公民團體，包括增加媒體識讀、提升媒體識讀的公民團體，一起來合作努力。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。這個剛好就連結到外交部有海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才，先鋒人才其實是對「對方」的人才來培育，我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分，因為他的出身本身可能就是NGO，他又有動能，如果他能夠進入這樣的專案，就能夠在當地宣傳臺灣現在在國際社會的處境，臺灣目前主張的民主的價值有多重要，以及為什麼我們在對抗中國、遏止這樣的侵略。其實對他們來講，我認為這樣的專案應該可以再往下發展。"],["陳次長明祺：我完全認同，事實上就好像今天的主題以原住民外交為例，我們也找了很多太平洋島國的青年領袖來臺灣一段時間，跟我們的公民社會團體、外交部、政府、民意代表能夠互動，就像剛才委員所說，我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲，畢竟中國整個的經濟量體那麼大，他可以用黨國的力量做很多。我們希望能夠建構跟民間、社會、跟社區領袖，尤其是未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係。我常常提到，如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的土木工程，那麼我們希望能夠增加他的課責性，有公民素養、accountability是我們能夠著重的重點。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為我覺得像今天排這個題目之所以還有一個重要性，以原民來講，說真的因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作，他們嘗試要把原住民重新定義，而且是對臺灣的原住民重新定義，如果我們沒有一個相對應的對策，它應該就不是單純原民會的事情，應該會是跟外交部有關，因為這個定義是要對國際社會說他能夠去定義臺灣的原住民，這個對我們來講是危險的。"],["陳次長明祺：是，這是非常重要的問題。中國那邊跟我們這邊看原住民的事情不一樣，他們是用所謂的少數民族，對我們來說，原住民不是少數民族，原住民是這個地方原來的主人，因為面對後來社會的變遷，所以對於原住民，我們看他們的地位是原來這個地方的主人，跟他們說只是少數並不一樣，所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣想法的國家或者是民間、公民社會的領袖、原住民的領袖、原住民的社群，一起來promote這樣的概念。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委的質詢。","接下來由林楚茵委員上臺質詢。待會兒王定宇委員質詢完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林憶君","蔡易餘","林倩綺","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員報告「運用總和外交理念結合南島語系國家，以發揮\n價值外交願景之規劃與策略」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00006"}}}