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\"end\": 930.128, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:04,379\n麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備選\n\n2\n00:00:16,816 --> 00:00:29,041\n議員好院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題\n\n3\n00:00:32,262 --> 00:00:59,988\n那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情啊我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決\n\n4\n00:01:01,144 --> 00:01:22,133\n那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面\n\n5\n00:01:26,095 --> 00:01:44,362\n那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕要具名而且要倒庭以言詞說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕在鑑定了\n\n6\n00:01:49,404 --> 00:02:05,265\n所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定\n\n7\n00:02:07,808 --> 00:02:26,088\n所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序\n\n8\n00:02:28,430 --> 00:02:43,501\n那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦\n\n9\n00:02:45,322 --> 00:02:59,080\n部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力\n\n10\n00:03:01,603 --> 00:03:26,038\n他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要搞我啊我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化\n\n11\n00:03:27,591 --> 00:03:50,527\n要真的去行這話也可以大家社會來對話修法可是沒有修法逼迫很多人被迫要去協調被迫要去和解拖了一年眼看著訴訟無望只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道只好被迫和解又少數幾個案子是這樣子\n\n12\n00:03:52,008 --> 00:04:13,136\n但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩照雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益\n\n13\n00:04:15,033 --> 00:04:39,851\n報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要願既協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...不然你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍\n\n14\n00:04:42,993 --> 00:04:50,516\n有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會來提供醫療專業意見你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎\n\n15\n00:05:10,285 --> 00:05:35,464\n如果你回答不出來不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部衛福部三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶\n\n16\n00:05:36,084 --> 00:06:03,487\n那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫\n\n17\n00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:15,373\n現在想一個辦法要改革保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概\n\n18\n00:06:25,383 --> 00:06:43,598\n9層可以解決9層我擔心的是你連1層都沒有辦法解決你解決了9層的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考\n\n19\n00:06:54,057 --> 00:07:12,032\n連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考\n\n20\n00:07:14,895 --> 00:07:25,429\n僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說他是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是\n\n21\n00:07:32,162 --> 00:07:57,301\n他不是醫療鑑定然後沒有具名不需要拒絕也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫審會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴\n\n22\n00:07:59,022 --> 00:08:19,216\n這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署\n\n23\n00:08:22,338 --> 00:08:37,771\n法務部衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意\n\n24\n00:08:38,351 --> 00:08:51,959\n所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號\n\n25\n00:08:53,260 --> 00:09:21,042\n我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式政委都是行政部門啊對都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦是不是陳行委員我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來\n\n26\n00:09:22,023 --> 00:09:38,892\n一年了院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起我也承諾我們會再經過\n\n27\n00:09:40,412 --> 00:09:58,727\n這個林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題不是已經跟你們提醒八個月了你們說要院紀協商也談了八個月了可是我現在講一改會一改會其實有一個有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去\n\n28\n00:09:59,728 --> 00:10:20,065\n你們檢查機關也要聽進去他說現在醫省會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題\n\n29\n00:10:21,926 --> 00:10:43,062\n在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官\n\n30\n00:10:43,522 --> 00:11:05,027\n需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛\n\n31\n00:11:05,487 --> 00:11:31,264\n所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊\n\n32\n00:11:35,707 --> 00:11:58,528\n市法院、衛福部、法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名拒絕要上庭這個都不符合啦\n\n33\n00:11:58,908 --> 00:12:25,076\n我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力\n\n34\n00:12:25,956 --> 00:12:49,848\n醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講\n\n35\n00:12:50,908 --> 00:13:20,168\n大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來\n\n36\n00:13:20,948 --> 00:13:36,385\n那也有人建議說找專職的這個醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定設立這個制度但是這沒辦法台灣的醫生喔你退休之後來做喔大家都覺得醫療科技推陳這個\n\n37\n00:13:39,108 --> 00:13:59,418\n初心速度相當快你今天這個專科下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候人家會挑戰你說你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告\n\n38\n00:14:00,018 --> 00:14:28,962\n台灣就是這麼特殊我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面依法要合作雙向要溝通依審會制度也要改善衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通制度面都要\n\n39\n00:14:29,602 --> 00:14:57,885\n所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院\n\n40\n00:15:01,014 --> 00:15:26,511\n你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢謝謝喔謝謝左院長衛福部長的備詢謝謝\n\n41\n00:15:30,014 --> 00:15:30,128\n謝謝大家\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t4379\t麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備選\n16816\t29041\t議員好 院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題\n32262\t59988\t那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情啊我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決\n61144\t82133\t那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面\n86095\t104362\t那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕要具名而且要倒庭以言詞說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕在鑑定了\n109404\t125265\t所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定\n127808\t146088\t所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後 到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序\n148430\t163501\t那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦\n165322\t179080\t部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力\n181603\t206038\t他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要搞我啊我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化\n207591\t230527\t要真的去行這話也可以大家社會來對話修法可是沒有修法逼迫很多人被迫要去協調被迫要去和解拖了一年眼看著訴訟無望只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道只好被迫和解又少數幾個案子是這樣子\n232008\t253136\t但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩照雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益\n255033\t279851\t報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要願既協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...不然你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍\n282993\t290516\t有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會來提供醫療專業意見你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎\n310285\t335464\t如果你回答不出來 不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的 當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面 我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部 衛福部 三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶\n336084\t363487\t那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫\n365350\t375373\t現在想一個辦法要改革 保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道 你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概\n385383\t403598\t9層可以解決9層我擔心的是你連1層都沒有辦法解決你解決了9層的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考\n414057\t432032\t連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考\n434895\t445429\t僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說他是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是\n452162\t477301\t他不是醫療鑑定然後沒有具名不需要拒絕也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫審會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴\n479022\t499216\t這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署\n502338\t517771\t法務部 衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門 解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴 怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意\n518351\t531959\t所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號\n533260\t561042\t我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式 政委都是行政部門啊對 都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦是不是陳行委員我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來\n562023\t578892\t一年了 院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起 我也承諾我們會再經過\n580412\t598727\t這個林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題不是 已經跟你們提醒八個月了你們說要院紀協商也談了八個月了可是我現在講一改會一改會其實有一個 有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去\n599728\t620065\t你們檢查機關也要聽進去他說現在醫省會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題\n621926\t643062\t在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官\n643522\t665027\t需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛\n665487\t691264\t所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊\n695707\t718528\t市法院、衛福部、法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名拒絕要上庭這個都不符合啦\n718908\t745076\t我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力\n745956\t769848\t醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講\n770908\t800168\t大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來\n800948\t816385\t那也有人建議說找專職的這個醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定設立這個制度但是這沒辦法台灣的醫生喔你退休之後來做喔大家都覺得醫療科技推陳這個\n819108\t839418\t初心速度相當快你今天這個專科下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候人家會挑戰你說你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告\n840018\t868962\t台灣就是這麼特殊 我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況 台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官 負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面 依法要合作 雙向要溝通依審會制度也要改善 衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通 制度面都要\n869602\t897885\t所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院\n901014\t926511\t你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈 人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢 謝謝喔謝謝左院長 衛福部長的備詢 謝謝\n930014\t930128\t謝謝大家\n","txt":"麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備選\n議員好 院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題\n那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情啊我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決\n那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面\n那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕要具名而且要倒庭以言詞說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕在鑑定了\n所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定\n所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後 到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序\n那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦\n部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力\n他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要搞我啊我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化\n要真的去行這話也可以大家社會來對話修法可是沒有修法逼迫很多人被迫要去協調被迫要去和解拖了一年眼看著訴訟無望只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道只好被迫和解又少數幾個案子是這樣子\n但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩照雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益\n報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要願既協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...不然你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍\n有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會來提供醫療專業意見你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎\n如果你回答不出來 不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的 當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面 我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部 衛福部 三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶\n那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫\n現在想一個辦法要改革 保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道 你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概\n9層可以解決9層我擔心的是你連1層都沒有辦法解決你解決了9層的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考\n連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考\n僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說他是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是\n他不是醫療鑑定然後沒有具名不需要拒絕也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫審會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴\n這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署\n法務部 衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門 解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴 怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意\n所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號\n我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式 政委都是行政部門啊對 都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦是不是陳行委員我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來\n一年了 院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起 我也承諾我們會再經過\n這個林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題不是 已經跟你們提醒八個月了你們說要院紀協商也談了八個月了可是我現在講一改會一改會其實有一個 有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去\n你們檢查機關也要聽進去他說現在醫省會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題\n在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官\n需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛\n所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊\n市法院、衛福部、法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名拒絕要上庭這個都不符合啦\n我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力\n醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講\n大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來\n那也有人建議說找專職的這個醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定設立這個制度但是這沒辦法台灣的醫生喔你退休之後來做喔大家都覺得醫療科技推陳這個\n初心速度相當快你今天這個專科下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候人家會挑戰你說你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告\n台灣就是這麼特殊 我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況 台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官 負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面 依法要合作 雙向要溝通依審會制度也要改善 衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通 制度面都要\n所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院\n你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈 人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢 謝謝喔謝謝左院長 衛福部長的備詢 謝謝\n謝謝大家\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:04.379\n麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備選\n\n00:16.816 --> 00:29.041\n議員好院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題\n\n00:32.262 --> 00:59.988\n那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情啊我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決\n\n01:01.144 --> 01:22.133\n那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面\n\n01:26.095 --> 01:44.362\n那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕要具名而且要倒庭以言詞說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕在鑑定了\n\n01:49.404 --> 02:05.265\n所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定\n\n02:07.808 --> 02:26.088\n所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序\n\n02:28.430 --> 02:43.501\n那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦\n\n02:45.322 --> 02:59.080\n部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力\n\n03:01.603 --> 03:26.038\n他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要搞我啊我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化\n\n03:27.591 --> 03:50.527\n要真的去行這話也可以大家社會來對話修法可是沒有修法逼迫很多人被迫要去協調被迫要去和解拖了一年眼看著訴訟無望只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道只好被迫和解又少數幾個案子是這樣子\n\n03:52.008 --> 04:13.136\n但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩照雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益\n\n04:15.033 --> 04:39.851\n報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要願既協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...不然你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍\n\n04:42.993 --> 04:50.516\n有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會來提供醫療專業意見你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎\n\n05:10.285 --> 05:35.464\n如果你回答不出來不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部衛福部三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶\n\n05:36.084 --> 06:03.487\n那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫\n\n06:05.350 --> 06:15.373\n現在想一個辦法要改革保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概\n\n06:25.383 --> 06:43.598\n9層可以解決9層我擔心的是你連1層都沒有辦法解決你解決了9層的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考\n\n06:54.057 --> 07:12.032\n連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考\n\n07:14.895 --> 07:25.429\n僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說他是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是\n\n07:32.162 --> 07:57.301\n他不是醫療鑑定然後沒有具名不需要拒絕也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫審會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴\n\n07:59.022 --> 08:19.216\n這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署\n\n08:22.338 --> 08:37.771\n法務部衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意\n\n08:38.351 --> 08:51.959\n所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號\n\n08:53.260 --> 09:21.042\n我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式政委都是行政部門啊對都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦是不是陳行委員我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來\n\n09:22.023 --> 09:38.892\n一年了院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起我也承諾我們會再經過\n\n09:40.412 --> 09:58.727\n這個林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題不是已經跟你們提醒八個月了你們說要院紀協商也談了八個月了可是我現在講一改會一改會其實有一個有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去\n\n09:59.728 --> 10:20.065\n你們檢查機關也要聽進去他說現在醫省會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題\n\n10:21.926 --> 10:43.062\n在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官\n\n10:43.522 --> 11:05.027\n需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛\n\n11:05.487 --> 11:31.264\n所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊\n\n11:35.707 --> 11:58.528\n市法院、衛福部、法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名拒絕要上庭這個都不符合啦\n\n11:58.908 --> 12:25.076\n我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力\n\n12:25.956 --> 12:49.848\n醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講\n\n12:50.908 --> 13:20.168\n大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來\n\n13:20.948 --> 13:36.385\n那也有人建議說找專職的這個醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定設立這個制度但是這沒辦法台灣的醫生喔你退休之後來做喔大家都覺得醫療科技推陳這個\n\n13:39.108 --> 13:59.418\n初心速度相當快你今天這個專科下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候人家會挑戰你說你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告\n\n14:00.018 --> 14:28.962\n台灣就是這麼特殊我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面依法要合作雙向要溝通依審會制度也要改善衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通制度面都要\n\n14:29.602 --> 14:57.885\n所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院\n\n15:01.014 --> 15:26.511\n你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢謝謝喔謝謝左院長衛福部長的備詢謝謝\n\n15:30.014 --> 15:30.128\n謝謝大家\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":4.379,"text":"麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備選"},{"start":16.816,"end":29.041,"text":"議員好 院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題"},{"start":32.262,"end":59.988,"text":"那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情啊我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決"},{"start":61.144,"end":82.133,"text":"那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面"},{"start":86.095,"end":104.362,"text":"那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕要具名而且要倒庭以言詞說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕在鑑定了"},{"start":109.404,"end":125.265,"text":"所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定"},{"start":127.808,"end":146.088,"text":"所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後 到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序"},{"start":148.43,"end":163.501,"text":"那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦"},{"start":165.322,"end":179.08,"text":"部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力"},{"start":181.603,"end":206.038,"text":"他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要搞我啊我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化"},{"start":207.591,"end":230.527,"text":"要真的去行這話也可以大家社會來對話修法可是沒有修法逼迫很多人被迫要去協調被迫要去和解拖了一年眼看著訴訟無望只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道只好被迫和解又少數幾個案子是這樣子"},{"start":232.008,"end":253.136,"text":"但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩照雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益"},{"start":255.033,"end":279.851,"text":"報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要願既協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...不然你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍"},{"start":282.993,"end":290.516,"text":"有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會來提供醫療專業意見你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎"},{"start":310.285,"end":335.464,"text":"如果你回答不出來 不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的 當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面 我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部 衛福部 三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶"},{"start":336.084,"end":363.487,"text":"那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫"},{"start":365.35,"end":375.373,"text":"現在想一個辦法要改革 保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道 你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概"},{"start":385.383,"end":403.598,"text":"9層可以解決9層我擔心的是你連1層都沒有辦法解決你解決了9層的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考"},{"start":414.057,"end":432.032,"text":"連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考"},{"start":434.895,"end":445.429,"text":"僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說他是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是"},{"start":452.162,"end":477.301,"text":"他不是醫療鑑定然後沒有具名不需要拒絕也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫審會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴"},{"start":479.022,"end":499.216,"text":"這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署"},{"start":502.338,"end":517.771,"text":"法務部 衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門 解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴 怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意"},{"start":518.351,"end":531.959,"text":"所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號"},{"start":533.26,"end":561.042,"text":"我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式 政委都是行政部門啊對 都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦是不是陳行委員我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來"},{"start":562.023,"end":578.892,"text":"一年了 院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起 我也承諾我們會再經過"},{"start":580.412,"end":598.727,"text":"這個林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題不是 已經跟你們提醒八個月了你們說要院紀協商也談了八個月了可是我現在講一改會一改會其實有一個 有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去"},{"start":599.728,"end":620.065,"text":"你們檢查機關也要聽進去他說現在醫省會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題"},{"start":621.926,"end":643.062,"text":"在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官"},{"start":643.522,"end":665.027,"text":"需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛"},{"start":665.487,"end":691.264,"text":"所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊"},{"start":695.707,"end":718.528,"text":"市法院、衛福部、法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名拒絕要上庭這個都不符合啦"},{"start":718.908,"end":745.076,"text":"我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力"},{"start":745.956,"end":769.848,"text":"醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講"},{"start":770.908,"end":800.168,"text":"大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來"},{"start":800.948,"end":816.385,"text":"那也有人建議說找專職的這個醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定設立這個制度但是這沒辦法台灣的醫生喔你退休之後來做喔大家都覺得醫療科技推陳這個"},{"start":819.108,"end":839.418,"text":"初心速度相當快你今天這個專科下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候人家會挑戰你說你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告"},{"start":840.018,"end":868.962,"text":"台灣就是這麼特殊 我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況 台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官 負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面 依法要合作 雙向要溝通依審會制度也要改善 衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通 制度面都要"},{"start":869.602,"end":897.885,"text":"所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院"},{"start":901.014,"end":926.511,"text":"你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈 人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢 謝謝喔謝謝左院長 衛福部長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":930.014,"end":930.128,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（17時2分）謝謝院長，卓院長需要喝口水嗎？"],["主席：麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長辛苦了，大概是去年的10月1號，大概有8個月了，我在這裡也是總質詢，詢問院長關於刑事糾紛的醫療鑑定問題。我再提醒你一下，就是刑事訴訟法第二百零八條修法以後，有關於刑事的醫療糾紛，因為醫事鑑定停擺，所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行，針對這個事情，8個月以後我會繼續在這裡質詢，你就知道事情還沒有解決。","去年5月1號到現在，修法到現在已經剛好整整滿1年了，你可想而知，臺灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟，而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定、責任鑑定上。新的修法規定是，所有鑑定都必須有自然人的具結，要具名，而且要到庭以言詞說明，這對現行醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊；我又提醒你說，我們的醫審會他們拒絕再鑑定了，所以大概從去年8月15號以後到現在，也將近9個月了，我們的醫審會拒絕受理全臺灣任何醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定。在他們拒絕受理鑑定以後，到現在累積了將近700件醫療糾紛的案子。因為這一次的修法，導致法務部檢察單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序，衛福部也堅持立場，司法院也堅持立場，而8個月以前我拜託你能不能進行院際協調，那時候你答應我，可是到現在仍然停擺，怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長，為什麼8個月來我們的進展如此之慢？委員沒有再收到一個新的報告，非常抱歉，部長能不能說明一下？"],["林委員淑芬：我再補充一點，部長，你可以想一下，我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平，因為會形成一種壓力，它會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩造雙方，反正你又沒有辦法訴訟，這已經發生一個月了，你也不要告我了，我們去協調、和解，好像是實質上在廢除醫療責任的刑事責任、好像廢除了、好像真正的去刑責化了，就是醫療糾紛去刑責化。要真的去刑責化也可以，大家社會就來對話、修法，可是沒有修法，逼迫很多人被迫要去協調、被迫要去和解，拖了一年，眼看著訴訟無望，覺得身心俱疲，沒有辦法再去為自己討公道，只好被迫和解，也有少數幾個案子是這樣子，但絕大多數都還是繼續要爭一口氣，要還給家屬或是病人公道，但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見、衛福部繼續堅持己見？然後兩造雙方拖著，犧牲的都是病人的權益。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實我們非常重視這個問題，我們也一直在溝通，我們為了因應這樣的……"],["林委員淑芬：這絕對是需要院際協調的喔！"],["邱部長泰源：所以本部與高等檢察署已經研議了短期間的解決方案，第一個，檢察機關……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你看你都還要看著稿子講，這代表你覺得這件事情無關緊要，你都要看稿子，這件事我不知道已經問過幾百遍了！"],["邱部長泰源：如果有鑑定的需要，可以洽詢相關的協會或公會，請他們提供醫療專業意見……"],["林委員淑芬：你隨便說說，法律上本來就是這樣寫，但是我問你，有幾個人……你講可以洽詢醫事團體、醫學會、醫院、個別醫生，還包括醫審會，請問有幾件啦？你在這裡給我這樣子虛與委蛇……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在是5月1號才開始來做這個試辦計畫。"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛講可以洽詢，請問有真正去洽詢、有進行訴訟的是幾件？你回答得出來嗎？如果你回答不出來，不要在這裡對立委虛與委蛇，你在這裡也是要對人民負責啊！你犧牲了每一個告訴人、當事人的訴訟權益耶！所以在這種狀況裡面，我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法，導致行政機關下的法務部、衛福部三方僵持不下，犧牲了告訴人的權益。那我現在問你，全臺到現在684件的醫糾，有312件送醫審會被退件，它不是先擱置，就是強迫兩造雙方，跟他說：你不要告了。強迫他犧牲自己的權利，放棄自己的權利，要他乾脆和解好了，他是被迫去和解，但是總的來講，因為他的權利被你們冰凍起來，所以他才被迫這樣欸！現在想一個辦法要解決，部長，你不知道你們裡面有辦法喔？你現在不知道你們裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎？你不知道喔？你知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：我們5月1號起要開始辦理一個醫療專業意見的試辦計畫，據了解這個可以解決九成的醫調案件無法進行偵辦的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：可以解決九成？我擔心的是你連一成都沒有辦法解決，你解決了9成的是行政程序的困擾，但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾。院長，你聽我講，以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考，連有沒有可行性都不知道，所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來鑑定模式的計畫，但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了，不具司法上鑑定報告的準要件了，你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考，僅供檢察機關、法務部參考，那共識就是它是詢問你們衛福部醫療的專業意見，作為偵查階段的參考耶！可是它不是醫療鑑定，然後沒有具名，不需要具結，也不需要出庭去接受詰問，可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定，所以你解決了檢察機關可能會說依據醫審會、衛福部提供的專業意見，認為他可能有涉及疏失，然後這樣子要給人家起訴，這樣子有辦法起訴嗎？起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎？有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，拖了這麼一段時間，覺得非常地不好意思，但這個事情經過行政院林明昕政委跟司法院的協調，才產生出現在試辦……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，這個不是跟司法院協調，這個是高檢署、法務部、衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門、解決檢察機關要怎麼起訴、怎麼辦案件的困難，但是這個沒有經過法院的同意，沒有經過司法院的同意，所以可能你的起訴到司法院以後，有沒有辦法到法院那一端，沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟，這個起訴的法律要件完不完備，可能都是問號。"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信林明昕政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式。"],["林委員淑芬：政委都是行政部門。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，都已經經過一個徵詢的方式，但因為這個方式5月1日開始試辦，是不是懇請委員，我們用一、兩個月的時間，看看它能不能解決一些問題，如果不能的話，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：但是你要找司法院來商量，這是你們行政部門自己想出來、自己認為的，你們行政部門要踢到司法院，司法院再踢回來，院長，一年了，所以我才說這是需要院際協調的制度面問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是不是5月1日開始試辦，讓它有一段時間，我們來看看有沒有辦法解決，如果沒有辦法解決，或者是要有更好的方法，我跟委員我們一起，我也承諾我們會經過林明昕政委，再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院際的方式來商討這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：不是，已經跟你們提醒8個月了，你們說要院際協商也談了8個月了，我現在要講醫改會，醫改會其實有一些建議，衛福部也要聽進去，檢察機關也要聽進去。它說現在醫審會的鑑定制度、方法就是不問不答，反正我就是幫你鑑定，鑑定完以後就出具書面資料，然後有些法官在審的時候，就說這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的問題，所以法官就會問很多問題，在問問題的時候就擔心鑑定的流程混亂且耗時，所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制，避免概括性的、假設性的詢問，確保鑑定的醫師能準確地回答核心問題，這個需要要求的是司法院的法官、需要要求的是我們的醫審會，所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制，這沒有兩院合作做不來的。","第二個，要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業認知。醫界與司法界是臺灣最菁英的兩大勢力，一個是第三類組的第一名，一個是第一類組的第一名，所以有高度的專業落差，如果法官和律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解，他要仰賴的就是鑑定報告，所以要透過專業的評析、依法的交流，提高司法人員在函詢和解讀鑑定報告時的專業素養，確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心，可是這個要跟司法院講、你們要去跟司法院講。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，報告委員，2月的時候，林明昕政委確實有召集司法院、衛福部、法務部和臺高檢來討論這個事情。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有結論。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以才有5月1日的醫療專業意見試辦，是不是請求委員能夠……"],["林委員淑芬：我就跟你講了這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定，鑑定報告的證據力要自然人簽名、具結、上庭，這個都不符合，我現在要告訴你，從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序。第三個，醫改會還認為要優化鑑定制度，確保報告的公信力，過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法，因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻，甚至缺少完整的論證過程。為了提升鑑定的公信力，醫改會建議現在鑑定至少初鑑的時候要有兩個醫師來初鑑，避免單一、一個醫師的鑑定結果就定生死，所以有預算的問題，在這裡面，衛福部醫事司很多年對這個預算……大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定，因為有編列預算，所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要。我們現在要講，大家都覺得這個問題，司法院覺得很容易的事情，為什麼衛福部做不到？為什麼臺灣的醫生做不到？因為臺灣就是有困難，國外的鑑定有時候因為國土很大，東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定，臺灣就是這麼小，某些特殊手術或是醫療方式，僅少數醫師能執行，所以你再怎麼匿名化、再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲，大家都猜得出來；也有人建議找專職的醫療鑑定委員，由退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定，設立這個制度。但是這沒辦法，臺灣的醫生等退休之後來擔任，大家都覺得醫療科技推陳出新的速度相當快，今天這個專科下面還有次專科，當要去鑑定的時候，人家會挑戰你，問你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文？你有多少貢獻？你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定？以前也有很多的醫師的確在鑑定的時候被肉搜、被關說，甚至被告，臺灣就是這麼特殊，我可以理解醫生的壓力，所以在這種狀況，臺灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘，我們第一線的檢察官負擔也很沉重，在這種狀況裡面，醫法要合作、雙向要溝通，醫審會制度也要改善，衛福部也要給予支援，司法院這些法官的受訓也要在觀念上再溝通，制度面都要，所以這個東西的確就需要院際協商、院際合作，我們就是需要這樣子，可是拖了8個月，你現在推出這種一看就不符合現行刑事訴訟法的規定，你說要做做看，我們也不反對，那要做多久？可以運作嗎？可以嗎？你們保證可以運作嗎？這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講，沒有找司法院耶！部長、院長，你們現在5月1號試行的這個計畫，沒有司法院的同意耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會期結束之前，這個階段大概有3個月的時間，我們將施行結果跟委員報告，再來進行需要的改進。"],["林委員淑芬：我想我也是很無奈，人民也只能這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部長的備詢。","接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢，邱若華委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}}