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\"去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 279.655, \"end\": 280.136, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 280.136, \"end\": 280.316, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 280.316, \"end\": 280.517, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 280.517, \"end\": 280.717, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 280.717, \"end\": 280.857, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 280.857, \"end\": 280.997, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 280.997, \"end\": 281.157, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 281.157, \"end\": 281.298, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 281.298, \"end\": 282.139, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 282.139, \"end\": 282.359, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 282.359, \"end\": 282.599, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 282.599, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"項\"}]}, {\"start\": 295.776, \"end\": 323.302, \"text\": \"風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 295.776, \"end\": 295.916, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 295.916, \"end\": 296.076, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 296.076, \"end\": 296.416, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 296.416, \"end\": 296.536, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 296.536, \"end\": 297.356, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 297.356, \"end\": 297.656, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 297.656, \"end\": 298.157, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 298.157, \"end\": 298.377, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, 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00:00:03,084\n謝謝主席吳署長有請請署長吳署長署長早安\n\n2\n00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:33,713\n這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛\n\n3\n00:00:38,169 --> 00:00:52,278\n輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的\n\n4\n00:00:53,118 --> 00:01:16,532\n那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中\n\n5\n00:01:17,892 --> 00:01:38,961\n去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要\n\n6\n00:01:39,626 --> 00:01:57,932\n從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候已經講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說\n\n7\n00:02:00,573 --> 00:02:15,251\n這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個\n\n8\n00:02:18,467 --> 00:02:42,811\n除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出具同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊\n\n9\n00:02:43,231 --> 00:03:03,692\n他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義獨根契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況\n\n10\n00:03:04,432 --> 00:03:18,786\n這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談\n\n11\n00:03:19,807 --> 00:03:44,529\n那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答\n\n12\n00:03:45,374 --> 00:04:02,900\n也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個\n\n13\n00:04:05,362 --> 00:04:15,772\n的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太\n\n14\n00:04:16,451 --> 00:04:38,734\n想去推因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向\n\n15\n00:04:39,655 --> 00:04:54,435\n去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項\n\n16\n00:04:55,776 --> 00:05:23,302\n風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整\n\n17\n00:05:24,242 --> 00:05:45,709\n那因為合建的形態太多包含我們剛剛所講的從早期協議合建到了分屋甚至有分屋還有分售還有投資的分層那這些我們變成說樣態太多但是我們你很難用一個單一的方式去對你很難去單一所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項然後提供給\n\n18\n00:05:47,330 --> 00:06:02,006\n這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成溝通上的困難\n\n19\n00:06:02,686 --> 00:06:30,360\n這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望剛剛有回答其他委員也有問一問地方政府的意見那我就乾脆開功課啦核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧\n\n20\n00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:46,242\n對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用\n\n21\n00:06:46,903 --> 00:07:15,629\n有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來部長我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的\n\n22\n00:07:16,513 --> 00:07:32,591\n我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論\n\n23\n00:07:34,273 --> 00:07:54,484\n所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再再討論一下講清楚一點那這個部分呢我們\n\n24\n00:08:01,207 --> 00:08:29,201\n第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足\n\n25\n00:08:30,327 --> 00:08:42,797\n所以時間你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望\n\n26\n00:08:43,621 --> 00:09:10,748\n早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好我覺得滿年太久啦我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦好不好三個月\n\n27\n00:09:11,548 --> 00:09:34,502\n或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊對不對了解我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會排個時間表出來會後來做參考可以嗎\n\n28\n00:09:35,683 --> 00:09:49,454\n好那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題的方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好請做好準備謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2343\t3084\t謝謝主席 吳署長有請請署長 吳署長署長早安\n12373\t33713\t這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛\n38169\t52278\t輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的\n53118\t76532\t那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中\n77892\t98961\t去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要\n99626\t117932\t從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候已經講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說\n120573\t135251\t這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤 地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個\n138467\t162811\t除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出具同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊\n163231\t183692\t他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義獨根契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況\n184432\t198786\t這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談\n199807\t224529\t那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答\n225374\t242900\t也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個\n245362\t255772\t的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太\n256451\t278734\t想去推 因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向\n279655\t294435\t去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項\n295776\t323302\t風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整\n324242\t345709\t那因為合建的形態太多包含我們剛剛所講的從早期協議合建到了分屋甚至有分屋還有分售還有投資的分層那這些我們變成說樣態太多但是我們你很難用一個單一的方式去對你很難去單一所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項然後提供給\n347330\t362006\t這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成溝通上的困難\n362686\t390360\t這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望剛剛有回答其他委員也有問一問地方政府的意見那我就乾脆開功課啦核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧\n390780\t406242\t對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用\n406903\t435629\t有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有 其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對 因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對 就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來 部長 我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的\n436513\t452591\t我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對 報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論\n454273\t474484\t所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再再討論一下講清楚一點那這個部分呢我們\n481207\t509201\t第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足\n510327\t522797\t所以時間 你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望\n523621\t550748\t早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好 我覺得滿年太久啦我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦好不好 三個月\n551548\t574502\t或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊 對不對了解 我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好 你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛 對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎 我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會 排個時間表出來會後來做參考 可以嗎\n575683\t589454\t好 那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題的方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好 請做好準備 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 吳署長有請請署長 吳署長署長早安\n這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛\n輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的\n那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中\n去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要\n從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候已經講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說\n這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤 地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個\n除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出具同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊\n他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義獨根契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況\n這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談\n那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答\n也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個\n的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太\n想去推 因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向\n去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項\n風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整\n那因為合建的形態太多包含我們剛剛所講的從早期協議合建到了分屋甚至有分屋還有分售還有投資的分層那這些我們變成說樣態太多但是我們你很難用一個單一的方式去對你很難去單一所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項然後提供給\n這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成溝通上的困難\n這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望剛剛有回答其他委員也有問一問地方政府的意見那我就乾脆開功課啦核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧\n對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用\n有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有 其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對 因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對 就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來 部長 我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的\n我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對 報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論\n所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再再討論一下講清楚一點那這個部分呢我們\n第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足\n所以時間 你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望\n早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好 我覺得滿年太久啦我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦好不好 三個月\n或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊 對不對了解 我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好 你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛 對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎 我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會 排個時間表出來會後來做參考 可以嗎\n好 那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題的方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好 請做好準備 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.343 --> 00:03.084\n謝謝主席吳署長有請請署長吳署長署長早安\n\n00:12.373 --> 00:33.713\n這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛\n\n00:38.169 --> 00:52.278\n輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的\n\n00:53.118 --> 01:16.532\n那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中\n\n01:17.892 --> 01:38.961\n去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要\n\n01:39.626 --> 01:57.932\n從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候已經講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說\n\n02:00.573 --> 02:15.251\n這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個\n\n02:18.467 --> 02:42.811\n除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出具同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊\n\n02:43.231 --> 03:03.692\n他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義獨根契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況\n\n03:04.432 --> 03:18.786\n這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談\n\n03:19.807 --> 03:44.529\n那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答\n\n03:45.374 --> 04:02.900\n也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個\n\n04:05.362 --> 04:15.772\n的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太\n\n04:16.451 --> 04:38.734\n想去推因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向\n\n04:39.655 --> 04:54.435\n去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項\n\n04:55.776 --> 05:23.302\n風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整\n\n05:24.242 --> 05:45.709\n那因為合建的形態太多包含我們剛剛所講的從早期協議合建到了分屋甚至有分屋還有分售還有投資的分層那這些我們變成說樣態太多但是我們你很難用一個單一的方式去對你很難去單一所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項然後提供給\n\n05:47.330 --> 06:02.006\n這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成溝通上的困難\n\n06:02.686 --> 06:30.360\n這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望剛剛有回答其他委員也有問一問地方政府的意見那我就乾脆開功課啦核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧\n\n06:30.780 --> 06:46.242\n對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用\n\n06:46.903 --> 07:15.629\n有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來部長我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的\n\n07:16.513 --> 07:32.591\n我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論\n\n07:34.273 --> 07:54.484\n所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再再討論一下講清楚一點那這個部分呢我們\n\n08:01.207 --> 08:29.201\n第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足\n\n08:30.327 --> 08:42.797\n所以時間你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望\n\n08:43.621 --> 09:10.748\n早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好我覺得滿年太久啦我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦好不好三個月\n\n09:11.548 --> 09:34.502\n或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊對不對了解我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會排個時間表出來會後來做參考可以嗎\n\n09:35.683 --> 09:49.454\n好那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題的方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好請做好準備謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.343,"end":3.084,"text":"謝謝主席 吳署長有請請署長 吳署長署長早安"},{"start":12.373,"end":33.713,"text":"這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛"},{"start":38.169,"end":52.278,"text":"輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的"},{"start":53.118,"end":76.532,"text":"那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中"},{"start":77.892,"end":98.961,"text":"去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要"},{"start":99.626,"end":117.932,"text":"從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候已經講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說"},{"start":120.573,"end":135.251,"text":"這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤 地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個"},{"start":138.467,"end":162.811,"text":"除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出具同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊"},{"start":163.231,"end":183.692,"text":"他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義獨根契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況"},{"start":184.432,"end":198.786,"text":"這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談"},{"start":199.807,"end":224.529,"text":"那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答"},{"start":225.374,"end":242.9,"text":"也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個"},{"start":245.362,"end":255.772,"text":"的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太"},{"start":256.451,"end":278.734,"text":"想去推 因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向"},{"start":279.655,"end":294.435,"text":"去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項"},{"start":295.776,"end":323.302,"text":"風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整"},{"start":324.242,"end":345.709,"text":"那因為合建的形態太多包含我們剛剛所講的從早期協議合建到了分屋甚至有分屋還有分售還有投資的分層那這些我們變成說樣態太多但是我們你很難用一個單一的方式去對你很難去單一所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項然後提供給"},{"start":347.33,"end":362.006,"text":"這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成溝通上的困難"},{"start":362.686,"end":390.36,"text":"這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望剛剛有回答其他委員也有問一問地方政府的意見那我就乾脆開功課啦核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧"},{"start":390.78,"end":406.242,"text":"對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用"},{"start":406.903,"end":435.629,"text":"有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有 其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對 因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對 就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來 部長 我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的"},{"start":436.513,"end":452.591,"text":"我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對 報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論"},{"start":454.273,"end":474.484,"text":"所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再再討論一下講清楚一點那這個部分呢我們"},{"start":481.207,"end":509.201,"text":"第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足"},{"start":510.327,"end":522.797,"text":"所以時間 你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望"},{"start":523.621,"end":550.748,"text":"早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好 我覺得滿年太久啦我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦好不好 三個月"},{"start":551.548,"end":574.502,"text":"或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊 對不對了解 我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好 你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛 對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎 我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會 排個時間表出來會後來做參考 可以嗎"},{"start":575.683,"end":589.454,"text":"好 那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題的方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好 請做好準備 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時37分）謝謝主席。吳署長有請。"],["主席：請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長早安。本席這次有提出都市更新條例增訂條文的提案，都市更新基本上以權利變換的方式為之，但是還是有所謂合建等等的機制，因為都市更新其實是一門非常專業的學識，所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中，常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛，這樣的糾紛輕則影響單一都市更新的推動；重則被擴散，造成大家整體對於都市更新的不信任，使通案難以推動，我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的。現在雖然臺北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項，要來調整資訊不對稱的問題，但是強度夠不夠？這是我提出這次法律修正案一個非常重要的原因。我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定中定型化契約的概念，這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉，我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中，凸顯資訊不對稱的問題，而且有一個務實的解決方案，我想這是提案的部分。","我就順著這個話題，今天的質詢就來談這樣的問題。在都更合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所造成的一些衝擊，我舉個例子，要合建一定是地主跟想要從事都更的建商一起商量，在商量過程中當然就有權利義務關係，我要出多少地，然後我可以分配回來多少等等。當然這是一個私契的合意行為，剛剛你回應很多委員質詢的時候就講得非常清楚，但在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況，我就舉例說明，比如有很多合建的都更案，它們會在自己訂定的契約裡面講，地主如果要撤銷都更同意書就要負賠償責任，因為都更案都開始了，頭都洗了。可是其實從都更條例第三十七條來講，除了有特殊的規定可以撤銷之外，其他也有，比如說，所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後，分配的權利價值低於出具同意書者，這就是地主的保障條款，不能說公展之後反而條件變更差，如果條件變更差，就允許地主退出，這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款。可是很多地主不見得知道這件事，他不見得了解都更條例第三十七條規定有保障地主的條款，以致於他在跟建商、跟開發商定義都更契約的時候就說，好，我如果撤回同意書要負賠償責任。問題就出現了，如果真的出現這樣狀況的時候，變成他要忍受不平等的待遇，不然就撤銷要負責賠償，法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況，這就是我覺得資訊不對稱帶來的問題。","其他相關的樣態還有包含額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議，地主是不能分享的，多賺的都算建商的，或者也禁止地主去找其他的建商洽談，造成所謂不公平的競爭，就類似壟斷的概念，這些都是在目前的機制下，用合意方式處理的時候，相對來講，對於地主出現保障不足、資訊不對稱、造成不公平契約的狀況。請問署長，遇到這些狀況、這些樣態，應該要怎麼辦？如果我們不用定型化契約的方式，有沒有好的方法來處理？請署長回答。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，的確這幾年來這個樣態已經太多樣化。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["吳署長欣修：所以導致很難用公法的定義去把它匡住，匡住的時候有好有壞，壞的時候，雙方協議的內容就不一定能夠成為計畫書的標準，因為我們在相關的權利變換價值上都有固定的計算法，但是合建是允許雙方用協議的方式，這也是為什麼我們在一開始也不太想去推，因為會影響雙方在執行中協議的內容。但是委員所提到的，尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱，如果回歸到都更條例，他不曉得有哪些法規是他可以受保障且雙方應該要納進去的，這也是為什麼我們在跟各縣市政府討論的時候，大家都傾向去研訂出更多的注意事項，只要有案件在談協議的時候，我們就會主動提供給雙方作為簽訂協議時候的認知；第二個，有所謂的風險控管事項，風險控管事項就會回應到剛剛委員所提到的，過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動，導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化，這一些要怎麼去因應？第三個，甚至也有人提到要不要用所謂強制信託的概念，但是因為強制信託又屬於……所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面，提供給雙方去做彈性調整。因為合建的型態太多，包含我剛剛所講的，從早期協議合建到分屋、分售，甚至還有投資的分成，變成說樣態太多，但是我們盡可能……"],["牛委員煦庭：你很難用單一的方式去……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項，提供給雙方，讓他們在這過程當中……這樣也可以保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子好了，也有很多人提醒，如果只用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態，可能會造成溝通上的困難，這個本席願意理解，但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目，這是我們提案的初衷。我一向都會給行政單位時間，我剛剛聽到很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法，署長的回應其實還滿清楚的，就是樣態很多，還有待整理。剛剛你在回答其他委員時也有講，要問一問地方政府的意見。那我就乾脆開功課，合建糾紛的各種樣態是什麼？署裡面總要做一個調查，哪一些是因為資訊不對稱、大概大的類別是哪幾種、都牴觸了哪些法規？你總要做一個完整研究報告，這是第一個功課。第二個功課，了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況，現在臺北市、新北市有注意事項，這個注意事項好不好用、有沒有有效的降低合建的糾紛、有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加透明、雙方資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善？這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明，如果有，其他縣市政府應該跟上，因為到處都有都更案，我們遲早要把這個遊戲規則建立好。就這兩個大功課，這些報告可以作為未來我們要怎麼來修這個法律的一個很重要的參考。部長，我要麻煩你一下，你要特別督導，因為我覺得這是滿重要的，我們現在要立個小軍令狀，其實不用那麼嚴肅，在多少時間之內國土署可以把這個功課做出來，作為我們討論這個法案的參考？部長，你心裡有沒有數？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您提的這個修正草案，其實我們部裡跟署裡都花了很多時間來討論，原則上我們是希望，第一個，給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關去把所有的樣態，以及主管機關現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚，這是一個。再來，有關您剛剛所提到的，都更條例條次的安排是不是放在第四十四條之一？有關合建契約，剛剛署長講得非常清楚了，必須要再……"],["牛委員煦庭：再討論一下？"],["劉部長世芳：要再講清楚一點，關於這個部分，第一個，我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會？按照地方政府上面，對於都市更新，以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展，還包括都更跟危老條例要做延長或做其他更動的部分，全部包在一起的話，我們是樂觀其成；如果沒有的話，就是國土署自己跟地方政府來處理，尤其是這一條都更條例裡面，我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條所欠缺的部分來做補足。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以時間上，你大概要多少時間去做這件事？"],["吳署長欣修：我們在今年內應該可以完成。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年內？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：半年內可以完成？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長，我希望早一點有好的消息，因為我覺得這是民生的事情，早一點討論，也許大家有一個好的平衡，我們就早一點讓這樣的新制度可以上路，這是我的期待，所以我覺得半年太久了。"],["吳署長欣修：我也會主動跟地方政府及相關的工會團體，甚至有一些案例，我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來，大家來表達一些意見，我們把問題都綜整清楚就可以……"],["牛委員煦庭：三個月啦，好不好？或者是你要有隨時報告的準備啊！"],["吳署長欣修：了解，我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的蒐整，這樣可以嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你會後提供一個三個月的時間表，就是說，你不見得三個月內會馬上有一個明確的結論，但這三個月你要做什麼？我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎、我能夠統整樣態嗎、我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會？排個時間表出來，會後來做參考，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後我只有一句話提醒，老屋延壽的部分，補助不是解決根本問題的方法，解決根本問題的方法，我們之前在這邊開公聽會時有討論過，其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫，這部分我們後面有時間再來探討。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：請做好準備，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}}