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87.408, \"text\": \"感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 58.125, \"end\": 58.386, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 58.386, \"end\": 58.966, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 58.966, \"end\": 59.166, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 59.166, \"end\": 59.406, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 59.406, \"end\": 59.606, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 59.606, \"end\": 59.707, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 59.707, \"end\": 59.847, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 59.847, \"end\": 60.187, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 678.914, \"end\": 679.074, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 679.074, \"end\": 679.995, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"萊\"}, {\"word\": \"豬\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 679.995, \"end\": 680.155, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 680.155, \"end\": 680.435, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 680.435, \"end\": 680.775, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"譽\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 680.775, \"end\": 680.915, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 680.915, \"end\": 681.016, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"危\", \"start\": 681.016, \"end\": 681.216, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 681.216, \"end\": 681.496, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 681.496, \"end\": 681.616, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 681.616, \"end\": 681.776, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 681.776, \"end\": 682.036, 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{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 693.422, \"end\": 693.442, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 693.442, \"end\": 693.462, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 693.462, \"end\": 693.662, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 693.662, \"end\": 693.682, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"銷\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 693.682, \"end\": 694.462, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 694.462, \"end\": 694.502, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 694.502, \"end\": 694.522, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 694.522, \"end\": 694.562, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 694.562, \"end\": 694.582, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 694.582, \"end\": 694.662, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 694.662, \"end\": 694.682, \"score\": 0.009}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 694.682, \"end\": 694.702, \"score\": 0.0}, 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{\"start\": 706.098, \"end\": 728.473, \"text\": \"這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 706.098, \"end\": 706.519, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 706.519, \"end\": 706.679, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 706.679, \"end\": 707.079, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 707.079, \"end\": 707.699, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 707.699, \"end\": 708.0, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 708.0, \"end\": 708.64, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 708.64, \"end\": 708.74, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 708.74, \"end\": 709.02, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 709.02, \"end\": 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\"start\": 890.948, \"end\": 891.168, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 891.168, \"end\": 891.548, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 891.548, \"end\": 891.628, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 891.628, \"end\": 891.648, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,490 --> 00:00:11,637\n謝謝主席有請邱部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,983 --> 00:00:31,128\n委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍\n\n3\n00:00:43,453 --> 00:00:56,840\n那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟財源說明好謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告\n\n4\n00:00:58,125 --> 00:01:27,408\n感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題\n\n5\n00:01:28,009 --> 00:01:28,130\n沒有問題財務\n\n6\n00:01:30,202 --> 00:01:33,844\n財源沒有問題財務也無虞根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞財源無虞很好\n\n7\n00:01:57,819 --> 00:02:26,374\n那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關\n\n8\n00:02:28,493 --> 00:02:46,926\n跟委員報告齁這個裡面簽署要就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力呢是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分\n\n9\n00:02:47,887 --> 00:03:13,954\n那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛所以其實我問這個是要提醒你們\n\n10\n00:03:15,154 --> 00:03:41,508\n細緻的這個需求供給財務都環環相扣那包含提供服務的人這個是一個很大的問題所以我就進一步告訴你因為根據衛福部你們長照2.0的統計居家照顧B等級的部分在全國服務結構中平均是到達了佔比是62.2%但他人力的負荷是持續的增加2023年的時候全國平均每位這個照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩\n\n11\n00:03:43,874 --> 00:04:11,457\n那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72\n\n12\n00:04:13,579 --> 00:04:28,617\n這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對這個居家照顧的B的部分B的部分的話\n\n13\n00:04:28,837 --> 00:04:46,375\n所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%\n\n14\n00:04:52,401 --> 00:05:16,463\n所以我剛剛講的就是看到它已經出現了這個問題所以我剛才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了嘛因為\n\n15\n00:05:18,605 --> 00:05:36,708\n長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家兆福園的薪資也提高了嘛從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣啊我看到的數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來很不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是\n\n16\n00:05:37,569 --> 00:05:57,981\n就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多啊結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以\n\n17\n00:05:59,582 --> 00:06:18,910\n我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决的这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这些问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是\n\n18\n00:06:20,030 --> 00:06:40,029\n包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有的一個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊\n\n19\n00:06:44,533 --> 00:07:02,106\n沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的\n\n20\n00:07:02,666 --> 00:07:21,236\n具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室好的好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛是沒錯好那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊\n\n21\n00:07:21,676 --> 00:07:37,460\n我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長感謝委員謝謝\n\n22\n00:07:47,355 --> 00:08:12,408\n好署長好我想要請問一下豬肉儀錶板揭露資訊的更新及之為何認為有沒有足夠的透明度跟公信力這邊跟委員做報告那我們在邊境抽驗完之後只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個假如放行是前一天放行隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次的兩批的因為抽驗到了所以你認為很精準\n\n23\n00:08:12,948 --> 00:08:31,703\n我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽驗呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎\n\n24\n00:08:39,130 --> 00:09:02,391\n看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT喔那為什麼豬肉以表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%喔那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準啊\n\n25\n00:09:05,564 --> 00:09:19,290\n這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高\n\n26\n00:09:19,850 --> 00:09:37,444\n所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們的抽驗\n\n27\n00:09:46,832 --> 00:10:12,802\n那你看到抽驗跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔署長你這樣講就代表你抽驗就不準嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心喔所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗\n\n28\n00:10:13,482 --> 00:10:30,494\n可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎\n\n29\n00:10:33,550 --> 00:10:56,260\n我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子的結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準\n\n30\n00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:25,939\n再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉\n\n31\n00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:36,163\n所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道\n\n32\n00:11:46,098 --> 00:12:08,473\n這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度\n\n33\n00:12:09,173 --> 00:12:38,239\n所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的\n\n34\n00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:59,727\n有在六間裡面有五間五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是\n\n35\n00:13:00,902 --> 00:13:10,179\n我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口那大概是這樣子的一個狀態\n\n36\n00:13:11,747 --> 00:13:33,370\n所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在炒當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要\n\n37\n00:13:34,472 --> 00:13:49,867\n更加積極喔因為你一直說安心的署長嘛可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背啦所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺喔所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啊\n\n38\n00:13:50,367 --> 00:13:55,491\n但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡\n\n39\n00:14:11,562 --> 00:14:23,591\n所以對於國外號稱沒有來機的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案\n\n40\n00:14:26,593 --> 00:14:51,648\n那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全是一直是兩回事所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝六位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10490\t11637\t謝謝主席 有請邱部長\n16983\t31128\t委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍\n43453\t56840\t那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟財源說明好 謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告\n58125\t87408\t感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題\n88009\t88130\t沒有問題 財務\n90202\t93844\t財源沒有問題財務也無虞根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞財源無虞很好\n117819\t146374\t那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關\n148493\t166926\t跟委員報告齁 這個裡面簽署要就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力呢是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分\n167887\t193954\t那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛所以其實我問這個是要提醒你們\n195154\t221508\t細緻的這個需求供給財務都環環相扣那包含提供服務的人這個是一個很大的問題所以我就進一步告訴你因為根據衛福部你們長照2.0的統計居家照顧B等級的部分在全國服務結構中平均是到達了佔比是62.2%但他人力的負荷是持續的增加2023年的時候全國平均每位這個照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩\n223874\t251457\t那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72\n253579\t268617\t這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對這個居家照顧的B的部分B的部分的話\n268837\t286375\t所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%\n292401\t316463\t所以我剛剛講的就是看到它已經出現了這個問題所以我剛才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了嘛因為\n318605\t336708\t長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家兆福園的薪資也提高了嘛從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣啊我看到的數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來很不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是\n337569\t357981\t就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多啊結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以\n359582\t378910\t我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决的这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这些问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是\n380030\t400029\t包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有的一個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊\n404533\t422106\t沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的\n422666\t441236\t具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室好的好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛是沒錯好那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊\n441676\t457460\t我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長感謝委員謝謝\n467355\t492408\t好 署長好 我想要請問一下豬肉儀錶板揭露資訊的更新及之為何 認為有沒有足夠的透明度跟公信力這邊跟委員做報告 那我們在邊境抽驗完之後 只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個 假如放行是前一天放行 隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次的兩批的 因為抽驗到了所以你認為很精準\n492948\t511703\t我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽驗呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎\n519130\t542391\t看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT喔那為什麼豬肉以表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%喔那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準啊\n545564\t559290\t這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高\n559850\t577444\t所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們的抽驗\n586832\t612802\t那你看到抽驗跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔 署長你這樣講就代表你抽驗就不準嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉 雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心喔所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗\n613482\t630494\t可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎\n633550\t656260\t我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子的結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準\n657080\t685939\t再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉\n686639\t696163\t所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道\n706098\t728473\t這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度\n729173\t758239\t所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的\n759179\t779727\t有在六間裡面有五間五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是\n780902\t790179\t我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口那大概是這樣子的一個狀態\n791747\t813370\t所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在炒當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要\n814472\t829867\t更加積極喔因為你一直說安心的署長嘛可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背啦所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺喔所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啊\n830367\t835491\t但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡\n851562\t863591\t所以對於國外號稱沒有來機的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案\n866593\t891648\t那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全是一直是兩回事所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝六位\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請邱部長\n委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍\n那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟財源說明好 謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告\n感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題\n沒有問題 財務\n財源沒有問題財務也無虞根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞財源無虞很好\n那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關\n跟委員報告齁 這個裡面簽署要就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力呢是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分\n那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛所以其實我問這個是要提醒你們\n細緻的這個需求供給財務都環環相扣那包含提供服務的人這個是一個很大的問題所以我就進一步告訴你因為根據衛福部你們長照2.0的統計居家照顧B等級的部分在全國服務結構中平均是到達了佔比是62.2%但他人力的負荷是持續的增加2023年的時候全國平均每位這個照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩\n那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72\n這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對這個居家照顧的B的部分B的部分的話\n所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%\n所以我剛剛講的就是看到它已經出現了這個問題所以我剛才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了嘛因為\n長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家兆福園的薪資也提高了嘛從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣啊我看到的數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來很不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是\n就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多啊結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以\n我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决的这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这些问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是\n包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有的一個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊\n沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的\n具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室好的好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛是沒錯好那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊\n我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長感謝委員謝謝\n好 署長好 我想要請問一下豬肉儀錶板揭露資訊的更新及之為何 認為有沒有足夠的透明度跟公信力這邊跟委員做報告 那我們在邊境抽驗完之後 只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個 假如放行是前一天放行 隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次的兩批的 因為抽驗到了所以你認為很精準\n我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽驗呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎\n看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT喔那為什麼豬肉以表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%喔那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準啊\n這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高\n所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們的抽驗\n那你看到抽驗跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔 署長你這樣講就代表你抽驗就不準嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉 雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心喔所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗\n可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎\n我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子的結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準\n再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉\n所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道\n這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度\n所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的\n有在六間裡面有五間五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是\n我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口那大概是這樣子的一個狀態\n所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在炒當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要\n更加積極喔因為你一直說安心的署長嘛可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背啦所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺喔所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啊\n但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡\n所以對於國外號稱沒有來機的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案\n那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全是一直是兩回事所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝六位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.490 --> 00:11.637\n謝謝主席有請邱部長\n\n00:16.983 --> 00:31.128\n委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍\n\n00:43.453 --> 00:56.840\n那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟財源說明好謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告\n\n00:58.125 --> 01:27.408\n感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題\n\n01:28.009 --> 01:28.130\n沒有問題財務\n\n01:30.202 --> 01:33.844\n財源沒有問題財務也無虞根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞財源無虞很好\n\n01:57.819 --> 02:26.374\n那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關\n\n02:28.493 --> 02:46.926\n跟委員報告齁這個裡面簽署要就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力呢是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分\n\n02:47.887 --> 03:13.954\n那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛所以其實我問這個是要提醒你們\n\n03:15.154 --> 03:41.508\n細緻的這個需求供給財務都環環相扣那包含提供服務的人這個是一個很大的問題所以我就進一步告訴你因為根據衛福部你們長照2.0的統計居家照顧B等級的部分在全國服務結構中平均是到達了佔比是62.2%但他人力的負荷是持續的增加2023年的時候全國平均每位這個照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩\n\n03:43.874 --> 04:11.457\n那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72\n\n04:13.579 --> 04:28.617\n這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對這個居家照顧的B的部分B的部分的話\n\n04:28.837 --> 04:46.375\n所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%\n\n04:52.401 --> 05:16.463\n所以我剛剛講的就是看到它已經出現了這個問題所以我剛才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了嘛因為\n\n05:18.605 --> 05:36.708\n長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家兆福園的薪資也提高了嘛從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣啊我看到的數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來很不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是\n\n05:37.569 --> 05:57.981\n就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多啊結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以\n\n05:59.582 --> 06:18.910\n我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决的这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这些问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是\n\n06:20.030 --> 06:40.029\n包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有的一個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊\n\n06:44.533 --> 07:02.106\n沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的\n\n07:02.666 --> 07:21.236\n具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室好的好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛是沒錯好那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊\n\n07:21.676 --> 07:37.460\n我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長感謝委員謝謝\n\n07:47.355 --> 08:12.408\n好署長好我想要請問一下豬肉儀錶板揭露資訊的更新及之為何認為有沒有足夠的透明度跟公信力這邊跟委員做報告那我們在邊境抽驗完之後只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個假如放行是前一天放行隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次的兩批的因為抽驗到了所以你認為很精準\n\n08:12.948 --> 08:31.703\n我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽驗呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎\n\n08:39.130 --> 09:02.391\n看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT喔那為什麼豬肉以表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%喔那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準啊\n\n09:05.564 --> 09:19.290\n這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高\n\n09:19.850 --> 09:37.444\n所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們的抽驗\n\n09:46.832 --> 10:12.802\n那你看到抽驗跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔署長你這樣講就代表你抽驗就不準嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心喔所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗\n\n10:13.482 --> 10:30.494\n可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎\n\n10:33.550 --> 10:56.260\n我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子的結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準\n\n10:57.080 --> 11:25.939\n再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉\n\n11:26.639 --> 11:36.163\n所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道\n\n11:46.098 --> 12:08.473\n這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度\n\n12:09.173 --> 12:38.239\n所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的\n\n12:39.179 --> 12:59.727\n有在六間裡面有五間五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是\n\n13:00.902 --> 13:10.179\n我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口那大概是這樣子的一個狀態\n\n13:11.747 --> 13:33.370\n所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在炒當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要\n\n13:34.472 --> 13:49.867\n更加積極喔因為你一直說安心的署長嘛可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背啦所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺喔所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啊\n\n13:50.367 --> 13:55.491\n但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡\n\n14:11.562 --> 14:23.591\n所以對於國外號稱沒有來機的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案\n\n14:26.593 --> 14:51.648\n那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全是一直是兩回事所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝六位\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.49,"end":11.637,"text":"謝謝主席 有請邱部長"},{"start":16.983,"end":31.128,"text":"委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍"},{"start":43.453,"end":56.84,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟財源說明好 謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告"},{"start":58.125,"end":87.408,"text":"感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題"},{"start":88.009,"end":88.13,"text":"沒有問題 財務"},{"start":90.202,"end":93.844,"text":"財源沒有問題財務也無虞根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞財源無虞很好"},{"start":117.819,"end":146.374,"text":"那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關"},{"start":148.493,"end":166.926,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個裡面簽署要就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力呢是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分"},{"start":167.887,"end":193.954,"text":"那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛所以其實我問這個是要提醒你們"},{"start":195.154,"end":221.508,"text":"細緻的這個需求供給財務都環環相扣那包含提供服務的人這個是一個很大的問題所以我就進一步告訴你因為根據衛福部你們長照2.0的統計居家照顧B等級的部分在全國服務結構中平均是到達了佔比是62.2%但他人力的負荷是持續的增加2023年的時候全國平均每位這個照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩"},{"start":223.874,"end":251.457,"text":"那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72"},{"start":253.579,"end":268.617,"text":"這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對這個居家照顧的B的部分B的部分的話"},{"start":268.837,"end":286.375,"text":"所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%"},{"start":292.401,"end":316.463,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是看到它已經出現了這個問題所以我剛才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了嘛因為"},{"start":318.605,"end":336.708,"text":"長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家兆福園的薪資也提高了嘛從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣啊我看到的數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來很不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是"},{"start":337.569,"end":357.981,"text":"就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多啊結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以"},{"start":359.582,"end":378.91,"text":"我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决的这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这些问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是"},{"start":380.03,"end":400.029,"text":"包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有的一個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊"},{"start":404.533,"end":422.106,"text":"沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的"},{"start":422.666,"end":441.236,"text":"具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室好的好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛是沒錯好那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊"},{"start":441.676,"end":457.46,"text":"我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長感謝委員謝謝"},{"start":467.355,"end":492.408,"text":"好 署長好 我想要請問一下豬肉儀錶板揭露資訊的更新及之為何 認為有沒有足夠的透明度跟公信力這邊跟委員做報告 那我們在邊境抽驗完之後 只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個 假如放行是前一天放行 隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次的兩批的 因為抽驗到了所以你認為很精準"},{"start":492.948,"end":511.703,"text":"我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽驗呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎"},{"start":519.13,"end":542.391,"text":"看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT喔那為什麼豬肉以表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%喔那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準啊"},{"start":545.564,"end":559.29,"text":"這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高"},{"start":559.85,"end":577.444,"text":"所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們的抽驗"},{"start":586.832,"end":612.802,"text":"那你看到抽驗跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔 署長你這樣講就代表你抽驗就不準嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉 雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心喔所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗"},{"start":613.482,"end":630.494,"text":"可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎"},{"start":633.55,"end":656.26,"text":"我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子的結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準"},{"start":657.08,"end":685.939,"text":"再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉"},{"start":686.639,"end":696.163,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道"},{"start":706.098,"end":728.473,"text":"這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度"},{"start":729.173,"end":758.239,"text":"所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的"},{"start":759.179,"end":779.727,"text":"有在六間裡面有五間五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是"},{"start":780.902,"end":790.179,"text":"我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口那大概是這樣子的一個狀態"},{"start":791.747,"end":813.37,"text":"所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在炒當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要"},{"start":814.472,"end":829.867,"text":"更加積極喔因為你一直說安心的署長嘛可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背啦所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺喔所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啊"},{"start":830.367,"end":835.491,"text":"但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡"},{"start":851.562,"end":863.591,"text":"所以對於國外號稱沒有來機的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案"},{"start":866.593,"end":891.648,"text":"那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全是一直是兩回事所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝六位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時33分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長，長照2.0即將期滿，要迎接長照3.0。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的適用範圍，在長照3.0上路前，因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是47.97億，大概48億左右，到了去年是828億，成長了大概17倍，我想要請教一下，因為我在資料裡面沒有看到，請教未來10年的財務規劃跟財源說明。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的關心，是不是容我請呂次長跟委員報告？"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員對於這個問題的關心，我跟委員報告，長照基金到上個月已經累積到2,036億，我們目前已經有一個長照基金的累積，這個是根據長服法第十五條的規定，主要是從菸稅、房地合一稅及遺贈稅，依我們目前的使用率跟目前的推估，我跟委員報告，10年之內沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有問題？"],["呂次長建德：沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：財源沒有問題。"],["呂次長建德：財源無虞。"],["廖委員偉翔：財務也無虞嘛？財務規劃也無虞。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。根據第十五條第二項第三款的規定，這裡面如果使用率有增加，有出現deficit的話，我們有多重財源，政府最後會負擔保責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：會再去補這樣子。"],["呂次長建德：會用補的方式，我也跟委員報告，財源無虞。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，財源無虞，很好。","另外，大家都知道長照人力面臨不足，年齡層也是逐漸越來越高，所以想要請教，未來如果擴大適用會需要更多的人力，請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求人口推估大概是多少？再來，服務需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級人數的推估？也就是研究的部分，其實這與財務都息息相關。"],["呂次長建德：對，當然。好，跟委員報告，這裡面牽涉到需求，簡單來說，一個是需求端，一個是供給端，需求端的部分，目前的失能率是13.3%，我們是以7.99%去估算，這樣就可以估算出一個需求數。"],["廖委員偉翔：需求的部分。"],["呂次長建德：至於供給數的話，目前最主要是照服員，照服員目前是10萬人，那10萬的部分，這裡面特別是有關機構的部分，我們會來強化。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是現在就是不足啊！對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，當然不足。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外請問，剛剛還有一個問題，就是你有針對不同的失能等級去做人數的推估嘛？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為他可能需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實我問這個是要提醒你們，細緻的需求供給、財務都環環相扣。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：包含提供服務的人，這是一個很大的問題，所以我進一步告訴你，根據衛福部長照2.0的統計，居家照顧B等級的部分，在全國服務結構中的占比是62.2%，但是人力的負荷是持續地增加。2023年的時候，全國平均每位照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩，甚至在臺北市還要照顧17.7位，所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重超標，對於這麼高的負荷，你們有沒有減輕人力負擔具體的方案？"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝委員，可能在統計上面要再跟委員做一個請教，因為根據我們的估計，如果以全國來講，平均應該是一個照服員服務6.72，這是2023年的數據，2024年是6.88，而不是委員剛剛所說的10。因為你剛剛說10，那個可能是以所謂ABC的B據點。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["呂次長建德：可是我們要算是算全國。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛講的就是特別針對居家照顧B的部分。"],["呂次長建德：對，B的部分應該也不是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛就說了，從我們查到的數據，這個部分是特別高。沒關係，我告訴你，根據居家服務聯盟的統計指出，照顧服務員的結構老化，平均年齡也都超過了50歲，25歲以下僅占3%，這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%，已經看到它出現了這個問題，所以我剛剛才說你們有沒有好好地去盤點你們缺了多少、你要怎麼增加，因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛！你可能會說有增加待遇等等的，我看你們報告裡面有提到一些，可是在短期之內不是這麼簡單就可以解決的，所以並不是口號式的方式。"],["呂次長建德：當然、當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：希望可以更細緻去推動。我現在就要問下一題了，在長照2.0的給付新制實施之後，我看到居家照服員的薪資也提高了嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：從3.2萬大概提高到5萬至7萬，好像我看到的數字是這樣啦！我看到的數據有這樣的情況，所以看起來很不錯，可是它同時也引發了一件事情，就是發現住宿型機構及醫療機構的專業人才大幅地流失，可能會跑到這裡來，所以導致護理師、職能治療師的短缺，剛好這些也都是衛福部主管的，所以整體而言，你的供給量就是這麼多，結果你裡面的比例就會失衡。","我想要告訴你的是，你們要怎麼協作或是你要怎麼解決這樣的問題？因為你單點解決了這個，提高他的待遇，結果發現這邊的人就跑過來了，這就導致了整個醫療的不平均、失衡，所以我這邊的問題是說，你要怎麼去做？你要怎麼跨單位協調？你要怎麼樣去達到平衡？"],["呂次長建德：是，我想委員對於這一塊真的是非常非常專門，而且也點出重要的問題，我跟委員報告，有關於人力的部分，特別是有關於居服員的部分，我們現在有策略，目前是希望區分這裡面的核心跟比較屬於……不要說邊陲，沒有身體接觸的啦！這是一個策略。第二個，在機構的部分、夜間的部分我們會來強化，從新南向國家，向印尼還有越南引進中階勞動力。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，次長，我剛剛先點出問題，因為時間有限，請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的，具體的實施情況而不是大標式的，可不可以交一份報告到本席辦公室？"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後我另外加一個，因為時間有限，其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛！"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務、大家醫計畫、資訊管理平臺的建置，我也想要瞭解一下目前這個整合機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼，你們怎麼去看待這件事情有沒有達標，請一併提供給我。"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，我要請食藥署署長。"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：署長好。我想要請問一下，豬肉儀表板揭露資訊的更新機制為何？你認為有沒有足夠的透明度和公信力？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做報告，我們在邊境抽驗完之後，只要抽驗的我們就會上，假如是前一天放行，隔天的上午11點我們就會更動，所以在這一次的兩批，因為抽驗到的時間不同……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你認為很精準？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是儘量能夠達到精準，但是抽驗是random的、百分比的，沒有辦法百分之百，我們儘量能夠接近。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我問一下部長，我也相信我們豬肉儀表板的公信力。在上週有質詢，之前也有問到部長，其實農業部網站也有寫，進口豬肉只占臺灣消費的10%，影響不大，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：看起來現在的狀況是這樣子。"],["廖委員偉翔：你覺得是這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉占比，的確是1比9的比例。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我想要請你們看一下PPT，為什麼豬肉儀表板上面出現的是24%？何況這幾年，3年平均是15%，今年也暴增60%到市占率的24%，所以這到底準還是不準？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做進一步報告，國內豬肉占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例，其實國內的豬我們放心，國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心，所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這兩個就有滿大的落差耶！"],["姜署長至剛：對，就表示我們對國外進口的其實是眼睛睜得更大，抽驗的比例會更高地來去做這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：那這兩件事是要統合嗎？還是你覺得不需要？因為這樣子會讓人覺得很擔憂它的公信力，因為這兩個數字，你剛剛說1比9，現在這裡是24%，大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣？"],["姜署長至剛：一個是實際上的消費端，一個是我們抽驗的，這個表特別強調……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是你看到抽驗與實際上的消費端有很大的落差，這樣會讓人家更擔心，署長，你這樣講就代表你抽驗不準嘛！會不會是這樣？"],["姜署長至剛：它的邏輯是在於，因為國外進來的我們比較不放心，而且現在也允許美國相關的豬肉、國際的豬肉使用萊克多巴胺等等……"],["廖委員偉翔：你說國外進來的比較不放心，那我接下來就問……"],["姜署長至剛：所以我們特別會有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛！你說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響，然後你又說對外國其實很嚴格，那這個就很好玩了，如果你覺得都沒影響的話，法規上為什麼本土的要零檢出？這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中，其實在110年的時空背景底下，我們對於進口豬肉裡面的萊克多巴胺殘留訂了這樣的結果之後，有訂標準之後，我們就是加強查緝的一個概念。"],["廖委員偉翔：署長，因為剛剛這樣子講起來，其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦！我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準。再者，剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起，消費者怎麼判斷這兩種豬肉有沒有混到？他們會不會產生疑慮？消費者會不知道，所以包含這次的廠商，我想這就是一個國人安心的標準，你剛剛說安心署長，不是安全署長嘛！安心的標準嘛！所以你看這次進口的廠商，他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害，所以不僅要求要銷毀不進入市場，然後也向消費者致歉，我覺得我們今天一直在講的事情就是安心，民眾安心的狀況。","講到安心的話，部長，有關於美國農業行銷署，它有一個叫做NFBAP的制度，不曉得部長知不知道？"],["姜署長至剛：我有跟部長報告過。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["姜署長至剛：針對這一塊我們也非常非常積極地鼓勵，未來假如國內的進口能夠往這個方向走，我們樂見其成。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。部長，簡單來講，署長，我想可能很多人不見得知道，這個叫做從未添加乙型受體素的牲畜養殖場，這就是所謂的NFBAP制度。在2022年的時候，農業部與食藥署有去美國查廠，有6間廠，好像都是在NFBAP上面的名單，請問是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步報告，我們後來看到的是，特別有這樣的廠，USDA美國農業部它也是在業者裡面的自主標示，我覺得這個自主標示被認定了……"],["廖委員偉翔：署長，請問你們去查的那6間是不是都是屬於這個名單上的？"],["姜署長至剛：6間裡面有5間，我有看到的是這樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：5間嘛！然後你們看到有1間不在。"],["姜署長至剛：對，有1間是不在的。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我想要問一下，我國進口美豬這些來源的牧場總共有幾場？是不是都在這53個名單裡？還是就像你剛剛說的有1間不是，所以其實也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源，是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：我們按照所謂的系統性查核項下，讓系統查核之後，能夠允許的他們就可以做進口，大概是這樣子的狀態。"],["廖委員偉翔：署長，我想要講的事情是，其實剛剛也是在吵啊！當初行政院是說所有的萊豬都從美國來，然後其他的地方都沒有查，所以最終我們要講的事情是，通過這些事件，我們再一次希望食藥署可以讓民眾感到安心，你應該要更加積極，因為你一直說安心的署長嘛！可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背，所以好像就開放了，讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺。","我小結一下，我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啦！但我知道本來大張旗鼓號稱要保障全民食安的主管機關，剛剛講到有雙標的狀況出現，包含為什麼外國可以有萊劑，國內變成叫零檢出，其實這也讓民眾對於食安覺得憂心忡忡，然後對於國外號稱沒有萊劑的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾，雖然當時不是你們做，但是沒有好好地去考察跟把關，所以這部分請衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案。","我最後還是要跟署長講一句話，還是要強調一下，不是透過一句科學檢驗就能當作免死金牌，其實安心與安全一直是兩回事，部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話，讓民眾「食在安心」這件事情是做不到的，所以這部分請部長和署長回去再好好思索一下應該怎麼做才可以讓民眾安心，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}}