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{\"start\": 95.084, \"end\": 121.812, \"text\": \"所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 95.084, \"end\": 95.244, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 95.244, \"end\": 95.744, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 95.744, \"end\": 95.864, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 95.864, \"end\": 96.785, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 96.785, \"end\": 97.325, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 97.325, \"end\": 97.445, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 97.445, \"end\": 97.965, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 97.965, \"end\": 98.145, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"偏\", \"start\": 98.145, \"end\": 98.785, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, 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{\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 116.991, \"end\": 117.211, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 117.211, \"end\": 117.551, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 117.551, \"end\": 118.191, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 118.191, \"end\": 118.351, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 118.351, \"end\": 118.531, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 118.531, \"end\": 118.791, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 118.791, \"end\": 119.031, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 119.031, \"end\": 119.231, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 119.231, \"end\": 119.371, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 119.371, \"end\": 119.571, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 119.571, \"end\": 119.731, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 119.731, \"end\": 120.212, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 120.212, \"end\": 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\"那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 776.012, \"end\": 776.212, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 776.212, \"end\": 776.792, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 776.792, \"end\": 777.132, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 777.132, \"end\": 777.293, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 777.293, \"end\": 778.273, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 778.273, \"end\": 778.553, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 778.553, \"end\": 778.693, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 778.693, \"end\": 778.833, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 778.833, \"end\": 778.973, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 778.973, \"end\": 779.153, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"健\", 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,477 --> 00:00:37,366\n謝謝主席麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我嚇一跳結果\n\n2\n00:00:38,126 --> 00:01:07,191\n他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中\n\n3\n00:01:08,591 --> 00:01:34,284\n剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大\n\n4\n00:01:35,084 --> 00:02:01,812\n所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎\n\n5\n00:02:05,026 --> 00:02:31,522\n首先我覺得這樣剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的那也覺得這樣的一個成效很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是義福會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會那今天已經幾月幾號了\n\n6\n00:02:36,414 --> 00:03:01,069\n今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們衣服回來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴\n\n7\n00:03:02,386 --> 00:03:24,215\n我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人\n\n8\n00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:42,593\n那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊\n\n9\n00:03:45,676 --> 00:04:05,357\n我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下箱後來有下箱去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說他這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告\n\n10\n00:04:06,078 --> 00:04:31,287\n那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬\n\n11\n00:04:32,908 --> 00:04:56,995\n不好意思你講到這個講到重點了錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢是嗎當然不是當然不是只是說政府經費一定要編預算預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長你要不要救他一下我完全聽不下去\n\n12\n00:04:59,366 --> 00:05:12,893\n就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎\n\n13\n00:05:14,737 --> 00:05:40,494\n你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下\n\n14\n00:05:41,374 --> 00:06:06,356\n去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶\n\n15\n00:06:06,976 --> 00:06:30,724\n不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子市長有沒有要補充什麼你負責督導這個業務\n\n16\n00:06:33,971 --> 00:06:45,995\n還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月\n\n17\n00:06:51,698 --> 00:07:05,192\n5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次\n\n18\n00:07:06,833 --> 00:07:22,493\n有嗎這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛\n\n19\n00:07:23,895 --> 00:07:45,313\n啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題\n\n20\n00:07:46,691 --> 00:08:11,867\n這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有9位人力在那邊我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是\n\n21\n00:08:13,448 --> 00:08:27,255\n有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪\n\n22\n00:08:31,337 --> 00:08:52,068\n那當然衣服會不會擔心我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這九個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心再來這個錢是不是要增加那這個部分其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想\n\n23\n00:08:53,646 --> 00:09:18,816\n我們是不是可以配合保全是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福源有的可以在晚上分擔一點有的白天分擔一點都也沒有講到重點沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家人命就比較不值錢嗎\n\n24\n00:09:19,676 --> 00:09:40,798\n你知道全縣這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全縣加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎\n\n25\n00:09:43,257 --> 00:09:58,283\n我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊\n\n26\n00:10:07,789 --> 00:10:32,024\n我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙\n\n27\n00:10:32,944 --> 00:10:50,593\n一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟\n\n28\n00:10:55,916 --> 00:11:24,435\n我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為\n\n29\n00:11:25,576 --> 00:11:54,696\n黑起來太不像話用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺點一下你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦我講一個重要的概念那昭緯先請坐我怕你太辛苦了\n\n30\n00:11:57,742 --> 00:12:12,540\n好我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼\n\n31\n00:12:14,042 --> 00:12:33,873\n那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險\n\n32\n00:12:34,753 --> 00:12:54,391\n那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買\n\n33\n00:12:56,012 --> 00:13:21,940\n那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準\n\n34\n00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:41,220\n那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔嘛那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念嘛也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講他是零\n\n35\n00:13:43,362 --> 00:14:05,828\n那孫署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了\n\n36\n00:14:06,468 --> 00:14:21,544\n那它的流向流向何去何從大家都不希望買到這批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度\n\n37\n00:14:22,666 --> 00:14:39,984\n這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業那我想就是說大家在不同的世界\n\n38\n00:14:40,825 --> 00:15:06,236\n不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的金句啦客觀又專業的金句就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞嘛所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾他實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種\n\n39\n00:15:07,296 --> 00:15:27,585\n就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛那你們就是這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說啊嚇我一跳怎麼嚇壞咧這種宣傳\n\n40\n00:15:31,747 --> 00:15:46,395\n所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛那我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員\n\n41\n00:15:48,516 --> 00:16:14,700\n沒有能力沒有那個意圖去宣稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛\n\n42\n00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:33,098\n所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論\n\n43\n00:16:37,441 --> 00:17:06,317\n之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行\n\n44\n00:17:07,077 --> 00:17:13,158\n那新的標準出來近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回\n\n45\n00:17:14,755 --> 00:17:38,084\n這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的\n\n46\n00:17:39,605 --> 00:18:08,406\n至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為司法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內比如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊就是那個比如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或\n\n47\n00:18:09,507 --> 00:18:35,103\n類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣中文好像就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎\n\n48\n00:18:36,564 --> 00:19:02,673\n這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導一路輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員這邊做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎\n\n49\n00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:28,733\n呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12477\t37366\t謝謝主席 麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好 次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我 嚇一跳結果\n38126\t67191\t他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中\n68591\t94284\t剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大\n95084\t121812\t所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎\n125026\t151522\t首先我覺得這樣 剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的 那也覺得這樣的一個成效 很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人 那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是義福會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下 部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會 那今天已經幾月幾號了\n156414\t181069\t今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們衣服回來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴\n182386\t204215\t我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人\n205876\t222593\t那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊\n225676\t245357\t我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下箱後來有下箱去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說他這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告\n246078\t271287\t那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬\n272908\t296995\t不好意思 你講到這個 講到重點了 錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢 是嗎當然不是 當然不是 只是說政府經費一定要編預算 預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢 有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長 你要不要救他一下 我完全聽不下去\n299366\t312893\t就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎\n314737\t340494\t你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊 譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下\n341374\t366356\t去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶\n366976\t390724\t不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子市長有沒有要補充什麼你負責督導這個業務\n393971\t405995\t還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月\n411698\t425192\t5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次\n426833\t442493\t有嗎 這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒 我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛\n443895\t465313\t啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題\n466691\t491867\t這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有9位人力在那邊我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是\n493448\t507255\t有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪\n511337\t532068\t那當然衣服會不會擔心我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這九個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心再來這個錢是不是要增加那這個部分其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想\n533646\t558816\t我們是不是可以配合保全 是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福源有的可以在晚上分擔一點 有的白天分擔一點都也沒有講到重點 沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠 錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家 人命就比較不值錢嗎\n559676\t580798\t你知道全縣這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全縣加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎\n583257\t598283\t我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊\n607789\t632024\t我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙\n632944\t650593\t一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟\n655916\t684435\t我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為\n685576\t714696\t黑起來太不像話 用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺 點一下 你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦 我講一個重要的概念那 昭緯先請坐 我怕你太辛苦了\n717742\t732540\t好 我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼\n734042\t753873\t那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險\n754753\t774391\t那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買\n776012\t801940\t那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準\n802640\t821220\t那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔嘛那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念嘛也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講他是零\n823362\t845828\t那孫署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了\n846468\t861544\t那它的流向流向何去何從大家都不希望買到這批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度\n862666\t879984\t這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業那我想就是說大家在不同的世界\n880825\t906236\t不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的金句啦客觀又專業的金句就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞嘛所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾他實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種\n907296\t927585\t就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛那你們就是 這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說 啊 嚇我一跳 怎麼嚇壞咧 這種宣傳\n931747\t946395\t所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛那我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員\n948516\t974700\t沒有能力沒有那個意圖去宣稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛\n975160\t993098\t所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論\n997441\t1026317\t之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行\n1027077\t1033158\t那新的標準出來 近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回\n1034755\t1058084\t這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的\n1059605\t1088406\t至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為司法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內比如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊就是那個比如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或\n1089507\t1115103\t類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣中文好像就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎\n1116564\t1142673\t這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導一路輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員這邊做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎\n1144436\t1168733\t呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好 次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我 嚇一跳結果\n他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中\n剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大\n所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎\n首先我覺得這樣 剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的 那也覺得這樣的一個成效 很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人 那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是義福會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下 部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會 那今天已經幾月幾號了\n今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們衣服回來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴\n我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人\n那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊\n我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下箱後來有下箱去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說他這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告\n那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬\n不好意思 你講到這個 講到重點了 錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢 是嗎當然不是 當然不是 只是說政府經費一定要編預算 預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢 有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長 你要不要救他一下 我完全聽不下去\n就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎\n你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊 譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下\n去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶\n不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子市長有沒有要補充什麼你負責督導這個業務\n還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月\n5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次\n有嗎 這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒 我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛\n啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題\n這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有9位人力在那邊我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是\n有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪\n那當然衣服會不會擔心我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這九個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心再來這個錢是不是要增加那這個部分其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想\n我們是不是可以配合保全 是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福源有的可以在晚上分擔一點 有的白天分擔一點都也沒有講到重點 沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠 錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家 人命就比較不值錢嗎\n你知道全縣這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全縣加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎\n我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊\n我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙\n一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟\n我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為\n黑起來太不像話 用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺 點一下 你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦 我講一個重要的概念那 昭緯先請坐 我怕你太辛苦了\n好 我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼\n那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險\n那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買\n那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準\n那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔嘛那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念嘛也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講他是零\n那孫署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了\n那它的流向流向何去何從大家都不希望買到這批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度\n這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業那我想就是說大家在不同的世界\n不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的金句啦客觀又專業的金句就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞嘛所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾他實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種\n就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛那你們就是 這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說 啊 嚇我一跳 怎麼嚇壞咧 這種宣傳\n所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛那我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員\n沒有能力沒有那個意圖去宣稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛\n所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論\n之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行\n那新的標準出來 近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回\n這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的\n至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為司法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內比如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊就是那個比如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或\n類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣中文好像就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎\n這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導一路輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員這邊做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎\n呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.477 --> 00:37.366\n謝謝主席麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我嚇一跳結果\n\n00:38.126 --> 01:07.191\n他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中\n\n01:08.591 --> 01:34.284\n剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大\n\n01:35.084 --> 02:01.812\n所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎\n\n02:05.026 --> 02:31.522\n首先我覺得這樣剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的那也覺得這樣的一個成效很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是義福會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會那今天已經幾月幾號了\n\n02:36.414 --> 03:01.069\n今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們衣服回來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴\n\n03:02.386 --> 03:24.215\n我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人\n\n03:25.876 --> 03:42.593\n那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊\n\n03:45.676 --> 04:05.357\n我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下箱後來有下箱去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說他這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告\n\n04:06.078 --> 04:31.287\n那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬\n\n04:32.908 --> 04:56.995\n不好意思你講到這個講到重點了錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢是嗎當然不是當然不是只是說政府經費一定要編預算預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長你要不要救他一下我完全聽不下去\n\n04:59.366 --> 05:12.893\n就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎\n\n05:14.737 --> 05:40.494\n你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下\n\n05:41.374 --> 06:06.356\n去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶\n\n06:06.976 --> 06:30.724\n不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子市長有沒有要補充什麼你負責督導這個業務\n\n06:33.971 --> 06:45.995\n還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月\n\n06:51.698 --> 07:05.192\n5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次\n\n07:06.833 --> 07:22.493\n有嗎這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛\n\n07:23.895 --> 07:45.313\n啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題\n\n07:46.691 --> 08:11.867\n這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有9位人力在那邊我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是\n\n08:13.448 --> 08:27.255\n有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪\n\n08:31.337 --> 08:52.068\n那當然衣服會不會擔心我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這九個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心再來這個錢是不是要增加那這個部分其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想\n\n08:53.646 --> 09:18.816\n我們是不是可以配合保全是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福源有的可以在晚上分擔一點有的白天分擔一點都也沒有講到重點沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家人命就比較不值錢嗎\n\n09:19.676 --> 09:40.798\n你知道全縣這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全縣加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎\n\n09:43.257 --> 09:58.283\n我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊\n\n10:07.789 --> 10:32.024\n我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙\n\n10:32.944 --> 10:50.593\n一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟\n\n10:55.916 --> 11:24.435\n我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為\n\n11:25.576 --> 11:54.696\n黑起來太不像話用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺點一下你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦我講一個重要的概念那昭緯先請坐我怕你太辛苦了\n\n11:57.742 --> 12:12.540\n好我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼\n\n12:14.042 --> 12:33.873\n那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險\n\n12:34.753 --> 12:54.391\n那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買\n\n12:56.012 --> 13:21.940\n那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準\n\n13:22.640 --> 13:41.220\n那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔嘛那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念嘛也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講他是零\n\n13:43.362 --> 14:05.828\n那孫署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了\n\n14:06.468 --> 14:21.544\n那它的流向流向何去何從大家都不希望買到這批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度\n\n14:22.666 --> 14:39.984\n這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業那我想就是說大家在不同的世界\n\n14:40.825 --> 15:06.236\n不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的金句啦客觀又專業的金句就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞嘛所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾他實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種\n\n15:07.296 --> 15:27.585\n就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛那你們就是這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說啊嚇我一跳怎麼嚇壞咧這種宣傳\n\n15:31.747 --> 15:46.395\n所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛那我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員\n\n15:48.516 --> 16:14.700\n沒有能力沒有那個意圖去宣稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛\n\n16:15.160 --> 16:33.098\n所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論\n\n16:37.441 --> 17:06.317\n之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行\n\n17:07.077 --> 17:13.158\n那新的標準出來近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回\n\n17:14.755 --> 17:38.084\n這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的\n\n17:39.605 --> 18:08.406\n至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為司法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內比如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊就是那個比如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或\n\n18:09.507 --> 18:35.103\n類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣中文好像就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎\n\n18:36.564 --> 19:02.673\n這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導一路輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員這邊做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎\n\n19:04.436 --> 19:28.733\n呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.477,"end":37.366,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好 次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我 嚇一跳結果"},{"start":38.126,"end":67.191,"text":"他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中"},{"start":68.591,"end":94.284,"text":"剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大"},{"start":95.084,"end":121.812,"text":"所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎"},{"start":125.026,"end":151.522,"text":"首先我覺得這樣 剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的 那也覺得這樣的一個成效 很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人 那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是義福會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下 部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會 那今天已經幾月幾號了"},{"start":156.414,"end":181.069,"text":"今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們衣服回來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴"},{"start":182.386,"end":204.215,"text":"我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人"},{"start":205.876,"end":222.593,"text":"那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊"},{"start":225.676,"end":245.357,"text":"我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下箱後來有下箱去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說他這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告"},{"start":246.078,"end":271.287,"text":"那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬"},{"start":272.908,"end":296.995,"text":"不好意思 你講到這個 講到重點了 錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢 是嗎當然不是 當然不是 只是說政府經費一定要編預算 預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢 有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長 你要不要救他一下 我完全聽不下去"},{"start":299.366,"end":312.893,"text":"就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎"},{"start":314.737,"end":340.494,"text":"你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊 譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下"},{"start":341.374,"end":366.356,"text":"去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶"},{"start":366.976,"end":390.724,"text":"不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子市長有沒有要補充什麼你負責督導這個業務"},{"start":393.971,"end":405.995,"text":"還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月"},{"start":411.698,"end":425.192,"text":"5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次"},{"start":426.833,"end":442.493,"text":"有嗎 這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒 我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛"},{"start":443.895,"end":465.313,"text":"啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題"},{"start":466.691,"end":491.867,"text":"這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有9位人力在那邊我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是"},{"start":493.448,"end":507.255,"text":"有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪"},{"start":511.337,"end":532.068,"text":"那當然衣服會不會擔心我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這九個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心再來這個錢是不是要增加那這個部分其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想"},{"start":533.646,"end":558.816,"text":"我們是不是可以配合保全 是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福源有的可以在晚上分擔一點 有的白天分擔一點都也沒有講到重點 沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠 錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家 人命就比較不值錢嗎"},{"start":559.676,"end":580.798,"text":"你知道全縣這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全縣加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎"},{"start":583.257,"end":598.283,"text":"我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊"},{"start":607.789,"end":632.024,"text":"我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙"},{"start":632.944,"end":650.593,"text":"一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟"},{"start":655.916,"end":684.435,"text":"我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為"},{"start":685.576,"end":714.696,"text":"黑起來太不像話 用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺 點一下 你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦 我講一個重要的概念那 昭緯先請坐 我怕你太辛苦了"},{"start":717.742,"end":732.54,"text":"好 我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼"},{"start":734.042,"end":753.873,"text":"那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險"},{"start":754.753,"end":774.391,"text":"那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買"},{"start":776.012,"end":801.94,"text":"那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準"},{"start":802.64,"end":821.22,"text":"那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔嘛那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念嘛也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講他是零"},{"start":823.362,"end":845.828,"text":"那孫署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了"},{"start":846.468,"end":861.544,"text":"那它的流向流向何去何從大家都不希望買到這批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度"},{"start":862.666,"end":879.984,"text":"這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業那我想就是說大家在不同的世界"},{"start":880.825,"end":906.236,"text":"不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的金句啦客觀又專業的金句就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞嘛所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾他實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種"},{"start":907.296,"end":927.585,"text":"就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛那你們就是 這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說 啊 嚇我一跳 怎麼嚇壞咧 這種宣傳"},{"start":931.747,"end":946.395,"text":"所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛那我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員"},{"start":948.516,"end":974.7,"text":"沒有能力沒有那個意圖去宣稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛"},{"start":975.16,"end":993.098,"text":"所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論"},{"start":997.441,"end":1026.317,"text":"之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行"},{"start":1027.077,"end":1033.158,"text":"那新的標準出來 近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回"},{"start":1034.755,"end":1058.084,"text":"這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的"},{"start":1059.605,"end":1088.406,"text":"至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為司法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內比如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊就是那個比如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或"},{"start":1089.507,"end":1115.103,"text":"類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣中文好像就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎"},{"start":1116.564,"end":1142.673,"text":"這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導一路輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員這邊做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎"},{"start":1144.436,"end":1168.733,"text":"呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1330,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時54分）謝謝主席，麻煩先請部長跟呂次長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好、次長好。我上個月到成功，在路邊吃海產的時候，有一個阿公突然走到我前面，把袖子捲起來，我以為他要打我、嚇了一跳，結果他露出手腕上的手錶，還很得意地把他老婆也叫來，跟我說我在2022年幫他們爭取智慧手環計畫在花蓮豐濱試辦，2023年我又再幫臺東成功和長濱的長者爭取智慧手環計畫，目前也都在實施當中。這對老夫妻的女兒一個嫁到臺北、一個嫁到澳洲，剛好放假……可能是回來掃墓啦！他們也跟我講，因為有這個智慧手環，他們真的很放心，對於在偏鄉生活的長輩們的幫助非常大，所以這樣照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的。","去年12月5日，我在衛環委員會已經要求衛福部規劃在臺東、花蓮全縣辦理智慧手環計畫，那時候部長特別指示，要在1個月內完成評估，我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年公告辦理。部長，那你知道現在的進度嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：首先，我覺得剛剛那個照片非常感人，有這樣的成效，我也很敬佩委員的推動，真的照顧了偏鄉的老人，怎麼擴大是我們一直在思考的，是不是容我請醫福會王副執行長……"],["陳委員瑩：我再鄭重提醒一下部長，上次是在12月5日的衛環委員會，今天已經幾月幾號了？"],["邱部長泰源：5月8日。"],["陳委員瑩：已經5月8日，整整過了半年又3天，要不要講一下你們的進度？"],["邱部長泰源：我請副執行長。"],["王副執行長裕煒：委員好，醫福會來報告一下。首先，委員的確非常關心成功和長濱的試辦計畫，難怪委員民意這麼高，非常受到民眾的愛戴。"],["陳委員瑩：這些話都不重要，我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以戴。"],["王副執行長裕煒：關於這個計畫，剛剛我其實特別講到這是一個試辦計畫，我們從去年1月開始做，到現在才1年3個月。為什麼叫試辦計畫呢？因為針對這個計畫，我們是跟長照司爭取3,500萬元的經費，做到目前為止才收案將近1,200人，實施上的確還是有一些民眾……剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意，可是也有一些民眾覺得科技產品不太會使用，種田的時候不方便戴著，或者戴很久忘了充電等，有這樣的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：這些是很小的問題啊！我跟部立臺東醫院院長後來也都有下鄉宣導，這些其實都是小問題啊！"],["王副執行長裕煒：是。"],["陳委員瑩：他們只是不知道怎麼用，宣導一下而已。"],["王副執行長裕煒：臺東醫院王院長也告訴我們，這個試辦計畫兩年完成，也就是今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告，所以我們想，既然……"],["陳委員瑩：你現在是在打部長的臉嗎？部長有跟我講，你們會在1個月內完成評估，而你現在上來講2年？這樣誰說了算啊？"],["王副執行長裕煒：我們確實也已經開始評估，臺東縣超過65歲的老人就有四萬多人，現在將近1,200人就花了3,500萬元。"],["陳委員瑩：啊！不好意思，你這個就講到重點了──錢，我們臺東人的命比較不值錢是嗎？"],["王副執行長裕煒：當然不是，只是政府經費一定要預先編預算才會有經費出來嘛！臨時要生出這麼多錢不太容易啦！"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得你很不會講話！部長、還是次長，你們要不要救他？我完全聽不下去，所以你的結論是什麼？是不要辦？還是要怎麼樣？"],["王副執行長裕煒：我們會繼續把這項試辦計畫完成……"],["陳委員瑩：繼續、評估？"],["王副執行長裕煒：評估完整，然後再……"],["陳委員瑩：那如果兩年後還有人不會用，這個計畫就取消，是嗎？"],["王副執行長裕煒：不是，就是……"],["陳委員瑩：你們在評估的過程中發現問題，有沒有立刻解決？你們有沒有嘗試解決？"],["王副執行長裕煒：發現問題我們再來修正，譬如……"],["陳委員瑩：本席下鄉去看的時候就發現，例如老人家不會使用，其實只是因為沒有人教，但你們也沒有去教。花東那麼多部落，你們不會請會族語的人去教一下、示範一下？本席那天去的時候就在幾個部落文健站說明，最後大家都會了啊！表示在試辦這麼久的過程當中，你們都沒有好好去說明、去教嘛！老人家需要多花一點時間，那就說慢一點，重複兩、三次也沒有關係啊！在這個過程中，你們有沒有做呢？本席覺得要檢討的好像是你們自己耶！而不是檢討那些老人會不會用。"],["王副執行長裕煒：不是的。我的意思是說，我們現在光是做這1,200人，臺中醫院就已經額外多請了9位專門的人力，負責輔導、幫忙這些民眾，讓民眾在使用上可以更順利，我們有在逐步改善。因為現在才剛開始，是不是拜託委員再給我們一點時間？我們再努力一下。"],["陳委員瑩：次長有沒有要補充什麼？因為你負責督導這個業務，還是由部長直接裁示？"],["邱部長泰源：在推動當中就要趕快檢討，不能到最後才檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，本席先告訴你實際的狀況啦！去年12月5日本席質詢完，而且經您裁示之後，一直到昨天，在這幾個月當中，衛福部總共針對本席這個要求討論多少次？有嗎？這是一個簡單的問題。"],["王副執行長裕煒：有。"],["邱部長泰源：醫福會也把這個當成很重要的……"],["王副執行長裕煒：我們一直持續在做這個計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你們很抗拒！本席得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒！就像最初試辦的時候，大家也是互踢皮球，後來是因為薛部長有所指示，所以才有比較清楚的劃分。試辦的過程如何？現在是不是還有人力不足或是誰錢不夠的問題？或者又想踢給別人做？部長，你直接一句話拍板定案由誰負責就好，如果他們做不下去，可能就是能力有問題。"],["邱部長泰源：這件事是麻煩醫福會負責。是不是？"],["王副執行長裕煒：這是醫福會的試辦計畫。"],["邱部長泰源：這是醫福會的試辦計畫，現在是部立臺東醫院在推動，也增加了9位人力，我們會即刻檢討它的困難在哪裡。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，本席覺得你可能不是很清楚，因為這個計畫不是由你主要負責。當然，戴手錶是一件簡單的事，但是有狀況的時候，訊息通報了，中間的接收單位必須立刻通知急救單位，因為這個接收單位必須24小時待命，所以他們聘了9個人24小時輪值。醫福會當然會擔心啊！等花蓮、臺東全縣辦理之後，要從9個人擴大到多少人？第一個，他們會擔心人力嘛！再來，錢是不是要增加？針對這個部分，其實有一些可以替大家省錢、省人力的方法，你們有沒有好好去想一想？","我們是不是可以配合保全？是不是可以配合村里長？是不是可以配合照服員？有的人晚上可以分擔一點，有的則是白天分擔一點。你們都沒有說到重點，也沒有動腦筋去想，只會說內部人不夠、錢不夠，就是因為不夠，本席才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫，難道我們花東這些老人家的人命比較不值錢嗎？你知道全縣辦理起來，例如獨居或是單獨居住沒有子女照顧的老夫妻，如果這一類的優先處理的話，全縣全部加起來才多少錢？可能連5億元都不到。只要花3億元救臺東、花蓮這些老人家，這樣很貴嗎？我們怕民眾從月台掉下去，都可以花那麼多錢去做柵欄，這個計畫可以救更多人，這筆錢為什麼不花？那個比例換算起來，其實比做月台的柵欄還便宜。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。每一條……"],["陳委員瑩：你們這樣拖時間真的沒有道理耶！一轉眼半年又過去了，你們好意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想每一條生命，不管他是在都市或偏鄉，我們都應該非常愛惜、重視啦！我們也一定會重視。其實在醫界，偏鄉的點值都是受到保障的，而且有額外的補助，我們一定都是關心的。所以這個部分我們馬上檢討，看看哪個地方推動時有障礙，因為一個好的計畫也需要克服很多困難，這就是一種經驗，也是一種智慧的累積，這樣也會形成一個好的模式，我們應該正面處理，為我們……"],["陳委員瑩：部長，本席再提示一件事，關於這筆經費，我們可以參考一下2023年薛部長的裁示，後來這部分是用長照基金辦理，當初豐濱的計畫是用花東基金辦理。因為這是在照顧長者，其實也和長照有關係，所以用長照基金非常合理，這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續、努力，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。我們馬上研議後向委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：請示召委，因為他們實在太不像話了，用掉本席太多時間，本來還有一題，是否讓本席問完？就是食藥署的部分，本席要說的是萊克多巴胺的問題，要修理一下他們。你要讓本席問嗎？"],["主席：1分鐘。"],["陳委員瑩：1分鐘說不完。"],["主席：說重點就好了啦！不要說那麼多。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！本席就說一個重要的概念，召委先請坐，本席怕你太辛苦了，我們說快一點。感謝召委安排澳洲豬肉檢測出萊克多巴胺這樣的題目，這個議題最終的核心價值到底是什麼？大家可以有不同的想法，但是本席認為，這是要凸顯一個大家可以接受的健康風險概念。我們有訂一個0.01ppm的檢測標準，本席相信這是衛福部和食藥署慎重考慮之後的可接受風險，姜署長也公開對媒體表示，即使每天吃，健康也無虞。","本席相信姜署長的專業，你們一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話，但問題是民眾還是會擔心，如果有零檢出的豬肉，大家肯定會優先購買，本席這麼說沒錯嘛？好。可接受的健康風險，可分為主觀和客觀可以接受的，當衛福部訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準時，對民眾而言，它就是一個客觀的、可接受的健康風險。但是健康是無價的，也是不可替代的，是人民最重要的資產，不是政府說安全，大家就可以放心的。","對於有害健康的任何風險，任何理性的民眾都不會願意承擔。臺灣民眾最在意的，就是零檢出的健康風險概念，也就是說，主觀可接受的健康風險，其實對很多民眾來說是零。署長，本席這麼說也沒錯嘛！這也是為什麼明明沒有超標，你們也放行了，可是還是要你們來立法院做專報，接受每一位委員對你們的質詢，因為大家都很想知道，這些檢測出來的豬肉，即使放行了，但它的流向呢？它何去何從？因為大家都不希望買到這批豬肉。","所以你們回答各界時，不要只是告訴民眾這些豬肉多麼合乎標準、多麼無害，如果你們是這樣的態度，面對可能存在的健康風險，其實你們就是在強迫民眾拋棄自己主觀的疑慮，選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業，大家是處在不同的世界，使用不同的語言，也就如同署長說的，因為剛剛署長說了一句客觀又專業的金句就是「萊豬殘留量合格，每天吃也健康無虞」。","所以同樣的道理，對於有學術文獻報告的支持，有助於民眾實質提升健康效益的食品，民眾也有意願購買、食用，但你們卻用這種落伍的天花板標準，認定這些是不實、誇張、宣稱涉及醫療效能，讓民眾和業者無所適從。這很像過去戒嚴時代對新聞、歌曲的政治審查，只要提到這些主觀的健康效應，你們就認為這種宣傳像在說中共來了一樣，將它認定為共匪，沒有辦法容忍大家對保健食品的主觀感受。","本席今天特別點出這些問題，並不是要和你們做一些專業上的爭論，因為這就好像處在不同世界，使用不同的語言。其實一般民眾不是醫療專業人員，他們沒有能力，也沒有意圖宣稱涉及醫療效能的言論，除非你們對自己的醫療專業很沒有信心，所以不能接受民眾主觀可接受的風險是零，沒有辦法接受民眾有權利去購買可以提升自己健康狀態的任何食品，也不能接受民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的心得。","所以本席希望透過今天的討論凸顯這個問題，讓你們能夠比較正向的看待健康保健食品，因為現在人民使用後所產生的主觀健康意識，其實是被箝制的，本席要點出這些問題，因為這些是不被允許討論的。最後的結論，之前質詢時，你們也認同本席的意見，願意在質詢之後的兩個月內修改食品宣傳廣告認定準則，本席也知道你們在如火如荼進行當中。但是在新的準則修訂好之前，因為現在是過渡時期嘛！你們接下來要用哪個標準執行？等新的標準出來，近期或之前被裁罰的，可不可以申請退回？"],["姜署長至剛：先向委員做進一步的報告，謝謝委員近來的一些指導，特別是對於保健食品的功能性詞句。的確，我們在署內也做了非常大幅度的討論，希望限定在一定的範圍之內，讓它的語句更精準的回到功能性食品的標示，往這邊走是我們持續在努力的。至於裁罰的部分，因為適法性的問題，雖然目前是所謂的輔導先行概念，但是已經裁罰的部分，因為案件都是在地方衛生局……"],["陳委員瑩：所以就是不行嘛？"],["姜署長至剛：對，因為在衛生局。"],["陳委員瑩：你們有沒有辦法在短期內，比如一週內正面表列那些認定準則，例如「得使用」的詞句，還有「得敘述」的生理功能詞句或類似的詞句，你們可以都把它列出來嗎？因為現在就好像文字獄一樣，中文好難喔！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，就時間上面，能不能允許多給我們一點時間？"],["陳委員瑩：兩週嗎？列出類似詞句。"],["姜署長至剛：因為要做大一點的改變，所以需要稍微多一點點的時間。我們會儘快，有任何進度會和委員做進一步的交流和溝通，我們會確實……"],["陳委員瑩：等一下，本席確認一下，你們現在是輔導先行嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：一直以來都是輔導先行。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們要以新準則的方向去做輔導先行。"],["姜署長至剛：其實現在的準則也是輔導先行，我們一直都是輔導先行。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有辦法把類似詞句詳細列出來嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們會儘快向委員報告。我們確立之後，也比較能夠聚焦，之後再向委員做完整的說明。"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來還會有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這些詞句都會做一些修飾，符合規定才能夠做功能性的說明。"],["陳委員瑩：你們還是要把它列出來，因為當執行的人不一樣的時候，你們所謂的「類似」標準就會不一樣，就會回到署長上次回答本席質詢時使用「抽象」這兩個字，因為裁罰時要明確，所以不能再抽象下去，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。"],["陳委員瑩：感謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝，下次不要說那麼久啦！","最後請黃國昌主席質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}}